Guild Wars 2

digiowl.9620:

And i just now had a champion mob in a DE drop me out of Death Shroud with a single swing, meaning i would have been downed had it touched my health. No real warning, just a simple weapon swing.

Then you are severely undergeared OR taking on mobs that are intended as group content.

if u dont like a game go play somthing else! i am tired of these complaints
i personally love GW2 and thats it

Konfuzfanten.6503:

digiowl.9620:

And i just now had a champion mob in a DE drop me out of Death Shroud with a single swing, meaning i would have been downed had it touched my health. No real warning, just a simple weapon swing.

Then you are severely undergeared OR taking on mobs that are intended as group content.

L80 rares are undergeared? And even with group events someone has to go in there and take the hits at some point. Remember that necromancers are the high health profession alongside warriors. And this champion delivered a blow strong enough that it would likely drop anything but those two professions. No big scary windup or anything, just a simple swipe with the limb and i watched the DS go poof. Never mind that i was downscaled, so i should actually have an advantage thanks to how downscaling deals with gear.

Good write-up OP, but I have to say that, while you do identify some issues that are a problem, I strongly disagree with the main thrust of your post.

Guild Wars 2 is not perfect…this is true. WvW has culling issues, many classes need some fixes/tweaks, and crafting is basically only worth it for the exp. Despite these issues though, I still feel like GW2 is one of the best, if not the best, MMORPG ever made.

The combat is simply amazing and has a smoothness and action-feel that I’ve never experienced before in an MMORPG. The dungeons actually require planning, coordination, and tactics from a group…you can’t just roll through using the good ol’ tank and spank monkey wrench to solve every problem. These are just a few of GW2’s positive attributes…I could list more, but I’m sure you all know them already.

Honestly, I think that your post is very representative of a fairly entitled community here that feels like they know 100% how to make the best MMORPG, and that they deserve special treatment from ANet simply because they were loyal GW1 fans. Let me just tell you that on both accounts…you don’t.

Not everyone liked GW1. Personally, I thought it was a decent game, but I always preferred the sub games more. And in the end, all of us here are paying customers and no one should get preferential treatment.

I think it’s clear that while many hardcore GW1 fans may not like the direction GW2 went, many other fans do. So I don’t really think it’s fair to chastise ArenaNet and call them OBJECTIVELY wrong, and liars because YOU aren’t happy with the direction of the game.

showatt.9413:

This is what I don’t understand.
Can you please explain to me what would you be doing without Ascended Gear?

I get the part that Anet ‘somewhat’ lied, but I really have trouble comprehending what’s the difference between grinding for Exotic, and grinding for Ascended Gear.
It’s all grinding anyway.

Without ascended gear you’re probably gonna be grinding Fractnal for exotic gear, so you might as well get Ascended Gear instead, right? Plus, you’re not forced to grind it until you are level 5 + in FoTM. And let’s face it if you’re that far in most of the mini dungeon are on repeat mode, so in essence you didn’t miss out anything.

You can’t use Ascended Gear for Spvp.

For Wvw it hardly matter because if you run with the zerg even if you’re level 1, as long as you have some range weapon you can still get kills. WvW is the last place where people look at your ‘skill’ – rather its all zerg, coordination and coverage.

So really Ascended Gear changed nothing.
If you dislike it because you feel like you have been lied to, then it’s a sentimental issue. The system is fine as it is, unless you can point out actual problem that prevent you from enjoying the game.

What have I been doing since reaching lvl 80 two weeks after Headstart? I have been playing the game.
1. Finished personal story.
2. Reviewed exotic armor. Decided on the pieces I wanted and continued to play the game my way. Finally got all I wanted last week. I did not grind. In fact, I hated the grind train in Cursed Shore so much that I went back to lower areas to redo my favorite DEs and get Karma.
I now have a mixture of exotics from karma, dungeons and crafting.
3. Worked on refining my build. Changed skills, traits, attributes then went in the world to see if things improved. And they did. Realized I was too glass cannon. Worked on toughness first and pleased when I was surviving more (e.g. sense of accomplishment).
4. Began working on 100% World Completion.
5. Playing and loving WvW (stopped being in zergs. go in with 5 person guild squad. have learned a lot from them about this type of pvp).
6. Began participating in guild nights (dungeon runs, jumping puzzles, etc).
7. Started two alts to try out the Norn and Sylvari areas/content.
8. Working on some achievements like Exploration.

I have had so much to do I still have not found time to try out SPVP. I had planned to start doing that next after I experienced a bit more of my alt content.

I structured my playing based on things I like. I have never felt like it was grind. I saw the requirements for Legendary and decided it was not going to be my goal. Thought I would be playing this for years so figured eventually “just by playing my way” I would have many of the mats. Then as I got close, I might start truly working on it.

Was having fun in the game until this change in direction was announced. Even had fun during Halloween and have been buying stuff in the Cash Shop.

Loved the idea of horizontal progression. Hate the idea of content gating and gear stat progression.

defy.7021:

if u dont like a game go play somthing else! i am tired of these complaints
i personally love GW2 and thats it

Yes, let’s blindly love this game and accept that it is perfect and there are no problems with it. Great attitude.

To say that GW2 is the greatest MMO is a joke. Maybe the best MMO to play right now, but there have definitely been superior MMOs. I will admit GW2 had a great MMO launch, but by following ArenaNet’s decisions blindly you are telling ArenaNet its okay to go back on their word and lie to the player base

Pretty much @OP

When it comes to gw (the original) hindsight is 20/20 for most people. Although i played GW for about 7 years, it’s still nothing compared to GW2.

digiowl.9620:

L80 rares are undergeared?

C’mon, my guardian in my yellow lvl 80 MF glasscannon gear can take a few hits without me using my defense skills. Are you rolling in berserker or MF gear?
In my dungeon gear i can face-tank the vet crabs and only dodge the roll-over attack.

Konfuzfanten.6503:

digiowl.9620:

L80 rares are undergeared?

C’mon, my guardian in my yellow lvl 80 MF glasscannon gear can take a few hits without me using my defense skills. Are you rolling in berserker or MF gear?
In my dungeon gear i can face-tank the vet crabs and only dodge the roll-over attack.

Big difference between a Guardian and a Necro, survivability wise, even with full on glass cannon gear.

There’s also a flaw when PvE enemies have auto-locking ranged attacks and abilities that ignore player abilities. I hate that I can’t always strafe a ranged effect when there’s such limited dodging. If the move is super telegraphed, like Kudo’s sniper shot in CoE story mode, then fine. But a AC ranger auto-attack auto-locks as well? Come on.

As for ignoring player abilities… Love mesmer feedback that doesn’t work on Old Tom or on some golems/mobs that throw projectiles. It’s not a description thing… it literally says it rebounds projectiles back at the enemy. Whenever an enemy has reflect projectile active and an engineer is tossing grenades right on top of the mob, those grenades get lobbed back. Why some enemies get special treatment regarding feedback is dumb. Oh, it makes feedback OP? Yeah, for all of a few seconds on a 40 second cooldown in a PvE encounter when a mob is doing a particular action… Seems like the whole point of creating utility skills, you know to counteract these particular actions that occur from time to time?

munkiman.3068:

Big difference between a Guardian and a Necro, survivability wise, even with full on glass cannon gear.

Yea i agree, but with me running 12000 HPs at lvl 80, no tgh and i can still semi-tank on my pure glasscannon guardian not using my defensive abilities. A proper spec’ed/yellow geared lvl 80 necro should be able to run around in lost shore without getting one-shot-down’ed.

Konfuzfanten.6503:

munkiman.3068:

Big difference between a Guardian and a Necro, survivability wise, even with full on glass cannon gear.

Yea i agree, but with me running 12000 HPs at lvl 80, no tgh and i can still semi-tank on my pure glasscannon guardian not using my defensive abilities. A proper spec’ed/yellow geared lvl 80 necro should be able to run around in lost shore without getting one-shot-down’ed.

Not against a champ…

Konfuzfanten.6503:

munkiman.3068:

Big difference between a Guardian and a Necro, survivability wise, even with full on glass cannon gear.

Yea i agree, but with me running 12000 HPs at lvl 80, no tgh and i can still semi-tank on my pure glasscannon guardian not using my defensive abilities. A proper spec’ed/yellow geared lvl 80 necro should be able to run around in lost shore without getting one-shot-down’ed.

My necro was in full exotics of precision/toughness/condition dmg gear (except for accessories) and was getting half my health (which sits around 21,000) cleaved off from certain attacks off normal mobs…. the vets were doing a lot more than that (rolling maneuver aside)

1) tanking, doesnt mean standing still just taking the hits to the face. Yea i can do that if i roll with my dungeon gear and spec for it. You can also tank by kiting very close to the mob keeping it on you while your mates nuke it down
2) Lost shore is a group zone, just like cursed shore. actually it seems like lost shore is more of a group zone then cursed shore. We are still taking about being able to take a few hits from a vet mob in lost shore and yes every single class has the ability to do that, nearly no matter the gear. Be that ignore dmg abilities, avoid dmg skills or whatever….and everyone skill got double dodge after their skills are used.

You have all proven my point stated in the OP.

Many posters in this thread have made it clear: dodge out of attacks, take less hits and DPS and you will successfully clear all of the content in the game.

Many have stated that Guild Wars is an inferior game. Why? Is it because you can’t jump, or because everything is instanced? Or maybe it’s because the level cap is 20. To typical modern MMO players, anything deviating from the norm “sucks”. This couldn’t be farther from the truth. One of the biggest reasons Guild Wars 2 has been so successful is because of Guild Wars, which is the tenth most successful PC game of all time.

Just by the responses to this thread I can see how hard ArenaNet sold out. “My necro has 21k life, my character can crit for 2k… blah blah blah.” If you think dodging out of combat and switching agro between players is skill, then you must have been playing some really uninteresting and dull games before Guild Wars 2.

This whole teamwork thing you guys describe in dungeons is an illusion. With five players who have common sense, a good trigger finger and good gear, a team can overcome anything. Sounds like an attack, dodge, revive and repeat snorefest to me.

I had something to add that got deleted so the short version:

High level zones are annoying and generally anti-fun – those of us who do not like to PvP or do Dungeons would like something more fun please!

Karma – not much to do with it – please add more high level exotic gear/accessories/weapons/fun stuff please!

First of all, this was an amazing post OP. I agree with everything you have said, and I think that the way you compared Gw2 with Gw1 was extremely effective in carrying your argument.

dimgl.4786:

At this point, it’s very hard to believe they can change anything about the game without upsetting a large portion of the playerbase.

If ANet is going to fix these issues you have addressed (which I totally agree with) then it’s something that they will have to do. This being said, they will need full cooperation from the playerbase (i.e. they’re going to have to ask us to trust them one more time). Players will lose a lot of hours of progress but it will all be for the greater good of this game. Why should we give them a chance at all? Because if you’re on these forums reading these threads or posting your concerns, you most likely care about where this game is going.

I have played Gw1 since Factions launched and it was great. I stopped playing for a few years and came back in 2010 and I didn’t feel like I fell behind at all. This is the feeling we all anticipated from this game, but it fell short for many of us. I’m sure it is still something we are craving and trying to squeeze out of Gw2, so something I want to say to ANet: I have been supporting everything you have done for the past 3 months (even the ascended gear, which I still feel iffy about) but I have now been exhausted through battling criticism with loyalty. If you have any plans of addressing the issues that the OP have pointed out, you have my full support. I am personally willing to lose some progress in the game if it means that I will be able to play for much longer in the coming years. You guys are a great bunch of people, and I want to see you and your game succeed. You have a goldmine of great ideas from Gw1, use it! I BELIEVE in you guys!

Now for the first time since launch, I’m going to go study for exams. I look forward to coming back to a game where I get stuck into overflow servers on every map 24/7!

great post dimgl!

dimgl.4786:

showatt.9413:

dimgl.4786:

However I still stand very firmly on my point that this game has been a vertical scale game from the start with some horizontal scale elements. I also stand firmly on the argument that combat should not be centered on dodge and it requires more depth to keep gameplay interesting.

.

I heard you still get a bit of vertical gear progression in gw1. Now keep in mind that when I talk about gear progression I’m talking about the ability to get better gear starting at lvl 1.

A true game without vertical gear progression – as I have stated – would be one where you are given the best gear at lvl 1 and everything you do later are for skins/money.

Can you confirm this seeing as you have played it?

Sure. Guild Wars does have vertical progression from level 1-20. When Guild Wars was first released, this vertical progression was pretty harsh due to the disparity between levels. However, there is no vertical progression at end game. Once you became level 20, the playing field evened out and the armor you had from 1-20 became useless.

This was quickly fixed in future campaigns by introducing tutorial zones. Players would level from 1-20 very quickly and the vertical progression was barely felt.

Just to add to this. Gear in gw1 was not level bound. You could get a run to a main town like Droknars or kaineng and buy max gear and wear it at low level. Which is what most everyone did especially faction campaigne. There you bought your gear from npc with cheap materials and got a basic max stat gear. There wasn’t crafting or trading post to buy it from.

defy.7021:

if u dont like a game go play somthing else! i am tired of these complaints
i personally love GW2 and thats it

If you don’t like the complaints, go somewhere else; it’s gonna be like this on the forums for a while. It’s not easy abandoning things though, is it?

Just posting to say thank you so much for this thread. Ever since release I’ve felt a niggling, implacable discontent with the game and I’ve never been able to explain why. I still played a lot — I’ve poured something like 70 or 80 hours into the game, and you know what? It was a lot of fun.

But the entire time, I just kept feeling like “something is really, inherently, fundamentally wrong with this game”. And the TC’s post perfectly articulates all the issues. I don’t deny that some of his points are a matter of opinion. But suffice to say I feel they’ll gradually become the popular opinion over the coming months.

The worst part is, I don’t think these are issues that will ever (or even could) be solved by patches or expansions. ArenaNet has incorporated numerous flaws into the game’s core design, and if you took the flaws out — well, there just wouldn’t even be a game left.

Trinnitty.8256:

dimgl.4786:

showatt.9413:

dimgl.4786:

However I still stand very firmly on my point that this game has been a vertical scale game from the start with some horizontal scale elements. I also stand firmly on the argument that combat should not be centered on dodge and it requires more depth to keep gameplay interesting.

.

I heard you still get a bit of vertical gear progression in gw1. Now keep in mind that when I talk about gear progression I’m talking about the ability to get better gear starting at lvl 1.

A true game without vertical gear progression – as I have stated – would be one where you are given the best gear at lvl 1 and everything you do later are for skins/money.

Can you confirm this seeing as you have played it?

Sure. Guild Wars does have vertical progression from level 1-20. When Guild Wars was first released, this vertical progression was pretty harsh due to the disparity between levels. However, there is no vertical progression at end game. Once you became level 20, the playing field evened out and the armor you had from 1-20 became useless.

This was quickly fixed in future campaigns by introducing tutorial zones. Players would level from 1-20 very quickly and the vertical progression was barely felt.

Just to add to this. Gear in gw1 was not level bound. You could get a run to a main town like Droknars or kaineng and buy max gear and wear it at low level. Which is what most everyone did especially faction campaigne. There you bought your gear from npc with cheap materials and got a basic max stat gear. There wasn’t crafting or trading post to buy it from.

The Trading Post actually brings some great innovations but it’s also a major setback as well. I feel like many of the systems in Guild Wars 2 are just a double edged sword.

postmanmanman.4026:

Just posting to say thank you so much for this thread. Ever since release I’ve felt a niggling, implacable discontent with the game and I’ve never been able to explain why. I still played a lot — I’ve poured something like 70 or 80 hours into the game, and you know what? It was a lot of fun.

But the entire time, I just kept feeling like “something is really, inherently, fundamentally wrong with this game”. And the TC’s post perfectly articulates all the issues. I don’t deny that some of his points are a matter of opinion. But suffice to say I feel they’ll gradually become the popular opinion over the coming months.

The worst part is, I don’t think these are issues that will ever (or even could) be solved by patches or expansions. ArenaNet has incorporated numerous flaws into the game’s core design, and if you took the flaws out — well, there just wouldn’t even be a game left.

This is what worries me the most. Sure, this game in its current state is great for the majority of players coming from other MMOs… but I get the feeling it will never be the game for me.

And for many loyal fans of ArenaNet who come from Guild Wars, it will never be the game for them. And when Blizzard releases Titan and Bethesda releases Elder Scrolls Online releases and Dungeons & Dragons: Neverwinter is finished, Guild Wars will start to be just another MMO that was.

dimgl.4786:

postmanmanman.4026:

Just posting to say thank you so much for this thread. Ever since release I’ve felt a niggling, implacable discontent with the game and I’ve never been able to explain why. I still played a lot — I’ve poured something like 70 or 80 hours into the game, and you know what? It was a lot of fun.

But the entire time, I just kept feeling like “something is really, inherently, fundamentally wrong with this game”. And the TC’s post perfectly articulates all the issues. I don’t deny that some of his points are a matter of opinion. But suffice to say I feel they’ll gradually become the popular opinion over the coming months.

The worst part is, I don’t think these are issues that will ever (or even could) be solved by patches or expansions. ArenaNet has incorporated numerous flaws into the game’s core design, and if you took the flaws out — well, there just wouldn’t even be a game left.

This is what worries me the most. Sure, this game in its current state is great for the majority of players coming from other MMOs… but I get the feeling it will never be the game for me.

And for many loyal fans of ArenaNet who come from Guild Wars, it will never be the game for them. And when Blizzard releases Titan and Bethesda releases Elder Scrolls Online releases and Dungeons & Dragons: Neverwinter is finished, Guild Wars will start to be just another MMO that was.

But I’m not even convinced GW2 is great for other MMO players. It tries to cater to GW fans AND WoW/other MMO fans, and I don’t think it meets the needs of either. It’s a muddled mess filled with unclear and conflicting design decisions, as you’ve pointed out.

The only way I could see this becoming something truly great is if ArenaNet did a Square-Enix-style restart, a la Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn. They’d need to wipe everything clean, and start rebuilding from the ground up. It’d obviously be incredibly unpopular with many existing fans, which is why I don’t see anything like that ever happening.

Honestly the fundamental flaw in GW2 was trying to mesh GW1, WoW, and Korean Grind/FTP. You can only successfully mesh two of those.

@OP,

This is a pretty comprehensive and analytical list; I can’t comment on everything you’ve said, but your criticism of level mechanics and combat mechanics seem convincing.

I wish you’d expanded a little on your Jack of All Trades point, though, because there’s something interesting happening here that no one seems to ever talk about:

The disparity between cooldown length and utility. In short, it works like this:

Skills that grant you boons have prohibitively long cooldowns and short durations. Long cooldowns discourages you from being sloppy with your Utility skills, which is fine, except your Utility skills rarely make a tangible and visible difference in the course of a battle. The result is an ability you only get to use very rarely, which doesn’t actually accomplish much anyway.

This leads to a situation where you’re basically stuck auto-attacking, dropping a few additional attacks on the side, dodging out of telegraphed attacks and running out of red circles.

Cooldowns are supposed to render resource systems (mana, rage, energy, whatever) obsolete, but instead they slow down the pace of combat, transforming what ought to be (according to ANet) a “visceral” experience into auto-attack, running out of fire, dodging, and occasionally popping a Shout every 40 seconds.

You write a very well-written post.

I fully agree with you because it’s what I felt during the game. I came upon this game since a friend of mine recommended it. I know nothing about guild wars 1. I did not follow their manifesto nor blogs. I only watched videos and trailers from youtube. The playerbase and hundreds of fan videos was something that made me started on this mmo.

Same thing occured to me. I only start to realise it’s flaws shortly few days after reaching the cap level. I decided to confirm my thoughts by having a 2nd character to lv80. I agree with most players. The process from Lv1 to 80 gave the best experience in-game.

Imo, guild wars 2 is better with vertical progression (increase gears and levels). I did research on guild wars 1 and that game suits better with horizontal progression. The reason is because guild wars 1 is heavily on instance while guild wars 2 on dynamic events. Dynamic events are effective with high concurrency of online players. While both games have very high population, the non-progressive element makes players inactive. Satisfied players makes inactive players. Horizontal progression makes players feel as if they achieve all goals and no more reason to be in the game. On the other hand, vertical progression makes players feel anticipated to achieve a goal and feel a reason to log in.

This is why the process from Lv1 to Lv80 is the best phase in Guild Wars 2 experience. Lv1 to Lv80 is a vertical progression no matter how people look at it. Upon reaching the level cap, it became a poor horizontal progression after players achieve their exotic wall goals. Cosmetic gears may not give players good end-game goals because beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It made players who have tasted the vertical progression from Lv1 to 80 feel like they have “completed” the game and little reason to log in.

I still play the game regardless of it’s flaws because the fractal dungeon seems anticipating and filled with high potential.

Eveningstar.6940:

@OP,

This is a pretty comprehensive and analytical list; I can’t comment on everything you’ve said, but your criticism of level mechanics and combat mechanics seem convincing.

I wish you’d expanded a little on your Jack of All Trades point, though, because there’s something interesting happening here that no one seems to ever talk about:

The disparity between cooldown length and utility. In short, it works like this:

Skills that grant you boons have prohibitively long cooldowns and short durations. Long cooldowns discourages you from being sloppy with your Utility skills, which is fine, except your Utility skills rarely make a tangible and visible difference in the course of a battle. The result is an ability you only get to use very rarely, which doesn’t actually accomplish much anyway.

This leads to a situation where you’re basically stuck auto-attacking, dropping a few additional attacks on the side, dodging out of telegraphed attacks and running out of red circles.

Cooldowns are supposed to render resource systems (mana, rage, energy, whatever) obsolete, but instead they slow down the pace of combat, transforming what ought to be (according to ANet) a “visceral” experience into auto-attack, running out of fire, dodging, and occasionally popping a Shout every 40 seconds.

This exactly what I mean by the “jack of all trades” comment. Permission to include your analysis on my OP?

Sure thing.

/15characters

Very solid write-up. GW2 is fun, but after 3 months of play plus beta time, it’s become a game that I’ll play only until something better comes along for these exact reasons.

I do agree with the resource removal in the game, i miss the energy pool. I actually don’t mind the jack-of-all style however. It allows me to play whatever role i want in many varied situations and i definitely don’t miss the looking for a specific role spam of past MMO’s. I think they were going for the more casual crowd here, it’s really more of an easy mode game with a sprinkle of tougher stuff here and there. They can definitely do more and i think they are heading in the right direction with fractals, the game is still very young.

I think the challenge of the CD system allows more over extending yourself in battle, to see how far you can push it, i’m really still learning this way of play. I slowly spend more time feeling out the situation than i ever did in GW (or any other MMO), either stretching a tanking role (one that holds aggro, but also avoids the big hits) or playing around with support to see how far i can go into the fray and still be able to support the group, i rarely focus on DPS, but when i do it’s a nice change of pace. I end up playing with many people that blow there CD’s straight off and end up dodge rolling and staying out of red circles, but not really contributing to the fight, only to end up being rez leeches. There’s some interesting ways to play this game, ones i really don’t think people even bother trying since it’s just easier to mitigate, face plant then zerg back, it’s not the fault of the game and i typically consider that a failure of the player. But you know, there’s a person or two back there playing it better, keeping those bosses engaged as the ones that have to rez and run back would end up raging since the boss (or even trash) has pooled all there health back. It’s sad that there are people that still don’t find combat engaging. I personally feel like FPS games are pretty boring in comparison, run out shoot a couple people, maybe toss a grenade, die and run back.

dimgl.4786:

You have all proven my point stated in the OP.

Many posters in this thread have made it clear: dodge out of attacks, take less hits and DPS and you will successfully clear all of the content in the game.

Many have stated that Guild Wars is an inferior game. Why? Is it because you can’t jump, or because everything is instanced? Or maybe it’s because the level cap is 20. To typical modern MMO players, anything deviating from the norm “sucks”. This couldn’t be farther from the truth. One of the biggest reasons Guild Wars 2 has been so successful is because of Guild Wars, which is the tenth most successful PC game of all time.

Just by the responses to this thread I can see how hard ArenaNet sold out. “My necro has 21k life, my character can crit for 2k… blah blah blah.” If you think dodging out of combat and switching agro between players is skill, then you must have been playing some really uninteresting and dull games before Guild Wars 2.

This whole teamwork thing you guys describe in dungeons is an illusion. With five players who have common sense, a good trigger finger and good gear, a team can overcome anything. Sounds like an attack, dodge, revive and repeat snorefest to me.

Yeah, and all you have to do to beat Contra is jump, shoot, run, and not get hit. Must be a super easy game that requires no skill . Your argument about GW2’s combat being “inferior” is completely bunk.

As to teamwork in dungeons being an illusion…ummm…have you ever actually played a GW2 dungeon???? There are many dungeon bosses that absolutely REQUIRE teamwork and coordination to beat. Some examples:

The Lovers from Ascalon Catacombs — You basically HAVE to have one or two people constantly CC one with a boulder and keep the two apart while the others DPS the one that is still up.

The Graveling attack with the traps in Ascalon Catacombs — One guy has to stand at the bottom and be “bait” for the gravelings, while the rest of the party triggers the traps on them.

Just about anything in the Fractals — Pulling the big ice elemental to the lava pots and having one player concentrate on triggering the pots. Having one player stay on a pressure plate while the others go to the next plate in Dredge. Having a few players concentrate on powering and keeping the fan running in the Old Tom fight. Having players stick together and rez each other in the dolphin portion of underwater.

So yeah, I’m sorry…dungeons in GW2 require way, way, WAY more teamwork than most other MMORPGs I’ve played. In other MMORPGs, it is typically one dude tanks, one heals, the others kill…and that’s it. Sure, it’s teamwork, but once you know your role you don’t even have to talk with the team at all to make things happen.

Creslin.1758:

dimgl.4786:

You have all proven my point stated in the OP.

Many posters in this thread have made it clear: dodge out of attacks, take less hits and DPS and you will successfully clear all of the content in the game.

Many have stated that Guild Wars is an inferior game. Why? Is it because you can’t jump, or because everything is instanced? Or maybe it’s because the level cap is 20. To typical modern MMO players, anything deviating from the norm “sucks”. This couldn’t be farther from the truth. One of the biggest reasons Guild Wars 2 has been so successful is because of Guild Wars, which is the tenth most successful PC game of all time.

Just by the responses to this thread I can see how hard ArenaNet sold out. “My necro has 21k life, my character can crit for 2k… blah blah blah.” If you think dodging out of combat and switching agro between players is skill, then you must have been playing some really uninteresting and dull games before Guild Wars 2.

This whole teamwork thing you guys describe in dungeons is an illusion. With five players who have common sense, a good trigger finger and good gear, a team can overcome anything. Sounds like an attack, dodge, revive and repeat snorefest to me.

Yeah, and all you have to do to beat Contra is jump, shoot, run, and not get hit. Must be a super easy game that requires no skill . Your argument about GW2’s combat being “inferior” is completely bunk.

As to teamwork in dungeons being an illusion…ummm…have you ever actually played a GW2 dungeon???? There are many dungeon bosses that absolutely REQUIRE teamwork and coordination to beat. Some examples:

The Lovers from Ascalon Catacombs — You basically HAVE to have one or two people constantly CC one with a boulder and keep the two apart while the others DPS the one that is still up.

The Graveling attack with the traps in Ascalon Catacombs — One guy has to stand at the bottom and be “bait” for the gravelings, while the rest of the party triggers the traps on them.

Just about anything in the Fractals — Pulling the big ice elemental to the lava pots and having one player concentrate on triggering the pots. Having one player stay on a pressure plate while the others go to the next plate in Dredge. Having a few players concentrate on powering and keeping the fan running in the Old Tom fight. Having players stick together and rez each other in the dolphin portion of underwater.

So yeah, I’m sorry…dungeons in GW2 require way, way, WAY more teamwork than most other MMORPGs I’ve played. In other MMORPGs, it is typically one dude tanks, one heals, the others kill…and that’s it. Sure, it’s teamwork, but once you know your role you don’t even have to talk with the team at all to make things happen.

Earlier in the thread I mentioned that other than AC and CoF, not many dungeons have interesting mechanics. I’m sorry, but CoE is such a poorly designed dungeon and that goes for TA, CM and SE* as well.

dimgl.4786:

Creslin.1758:

dimgl.4786:

You have all proven my point stated in the OP.

Many posters in this thread have made it clear: dodge out of attacks, take less hits and DPS and you will successfully clear all of the content in the game.

Many have stated that Guild Wars is an inferior game. Why? Is it because you can’t jump, or because everything is instanced? Or maybe it’s because the level cap is 20. To typical modern MMO players, anything deviating from the norm “sucks”. This couldn’t be farther from the truth. One of the biggest reasons Guild Wars 2 has been so successful is because of Guild Wars, which is the tenth most successful PC game of all time.

Just by the responses to this thread I can see how hard ArenaNet sold out. “My necro has 21k life, my character can crit for 2k… blah blah blah.” If you think dodging out of combat and switching agro between players is skill, then you must have been playing some really uninteresting and dull games before Guild Wars 2.

This whole teamwork thing you guys describe in dungeons is an illusion. With five players who have common sense, a good trigger finger and good gear, a team can overcome anything. Sounds like an attack, dodge, revive and repeat snorefest to me.

Yeah, and all you have to do to beat Contra is jump, shoot, run, and not get hit. Must be a super easy game that requires no skill . Your argument about GW2’s combat being “inferior” is completely bunk.

As to teamwork in dungeons being an illusion…ummm…have you ever actually played a GW2 dungeon???? There are many dungeon bosses that absolutely REQUIRE teamwork and coordination to beat. Some examples:

The Lovers from Ascalon Catacombs — You basically HAVE to have one or two people constantly CC one with a boulder and keep the two apart while the others DPS the one that is still up.

The Graveling attack with the traps in Ascalon Catacombs — One guy has to stand at the bottom and be “bait” for the gravelings, while the rest of the party triggers the traps on them.

Just about anything in the Fractals — Pulling the big ice elemental to the lava pots and having one player concentrate on triggering the pots. Having one player stay on a pressure plate while the others go to the next plate in Dredge. Having a few players concentrate on powering and keeping the fan running in the Old Tom fight. Having players stick together and rez each other in the dolphin portion of underwater.

So yeah, I’m sorry…dungeons in GW2 require way, way, WAY more teamwork than most other MMORPGs I’ve played. In other MMORPGs, it is typically one dude tanks, one heals, the others kill…and that’s it. Sure, it’s teamwork, but once you know your role you don’t even have to talk with the team at all to make things happen.

Earlier in the thread I mentioned that other than AC and CoF, not many dungeons have interesting mechanics. I’m sorry, but CoE is such a poorly designed dungeon and that goes for TA, CM and SE* as well.

Well I’ve only done AC, Fractals and TA like once so I can’t really dispute that lol. TA though, I remember there being a room where you had to stop a spider queen from pushing you into eggs to create more mobs. And I also remember having to be constantly cognizant of those death blossom things that would just tear you up.

And I mean, besides that, there is also just normal combat teamwork. Like condition removal, combo fields, CCing the mobs, reflect, etc.

EDIT: Oh I just remembered, I did Honor of the Waves once, and I recall there being a boss in there that had these totems that gave him strong buffs. The totems could be killed, but would come back after a while. So you had to have some team members dedicated to killing the important totems, like Regen and Prot..and everyone else DPSing.

So yeah, I’m sorry…dungeons in GW2 require way, way, WAY more teamwork than most other MMORPGs I’ve played. In other MMORPGs, it is typically one dude tanks, one heals, the others kill…and that’s it. Sure, it’s teamwork, but once you know your role you don’t even have to talk with the team at all to make things happen.

It’s not that GW2 doesn’t require teamwork and coordination. Of course dungeons do. Coordination is the basis on which dungeons are tuned.

It’s that the way you coordinate and the way you work together as a team depends less on your skills and more on the way you negotiate the environment.

The Lovers in AC requires teamwork, yeah, but the CC comes from boulders, not from your own build or your own skills.

The Graveling traps in AC require good timing with spikes more than anything else. Yes, the bait needs to know how to kite, and area denial/speed boost/teleport skills definitely help, but fundamentally this is an encounter that boils down to spike timing.

The ‘coordination’ element in dungeons doesn’t emphasize your profession or your skills or your build, usually. You’re coordinating through the environment.

This is a double edged sword. On the bright side: your build, profession and skills don’t matter—all you need to do is stick together, know how to rez, run out of red circles, or use the environment. On the down side: your build, profession and skills don’t matter, since all you need to do is stick together, know how to rez, run out of red circles or use the environment.

It’s a bizarre design philosophy which proudly claims that the trinity is dead and class roles are gone—but not because any class can do anything, but because nearly everything you can do within your profession is largely inconsequential.

(To be fair, this isn’t -always- the case. Lieutenant Kohler, for example, is a fight that benefits tremendously from someone who can grant Stability. This is a good example of teamwork where your skills actually matter.)

TLDR: The problem is that teamwork and coordination happens in a way that largely ignores the nuances of your profession. Instead of having a system where the trinity is dead because every character can perform every role, you have a system where the trinity is dead because no character can perform any role.

I read the original post(s) and got a chuckle out of it. Basically the OP is saying everything they did with GW2 is wrong. What exactly are you expecting them to do? Spend next five years redesigning the game from scratch?

You are basically asking a new MMO. That being said. I do enjoy GW2 as it is. It has its flaws but a lot of things OP listed are good things in my books. Still, you can’t please everyone and I bet GW2 attracted a lot more folks initially than GW ever did. It will have its dedicated fans. I think people need to accept that no game is ever going to appeal for everyone.

Edit: Also very important thing to note is that Guild Wars 2 is not Guild Wars. They are different games.

Eveningstar.6940:

So yeah, I’m sorry…dungeons in GW2 require way, way, WAY more teamwork than most other MMORPGs I’ve played. In other MMORPGs, it is typically one dude tanks, one heals, the others kill…and that’s it. Sure, it’s teamwork, but once you know your role you don’t even have to talk with the team at all to make things happen.

It’s not that GW2 doesn’t require teamwork and coordination. Of course dungeons do. Coordination is the basis on which dungeons are tuned.

It’s that the way you coordinate and the way you work together as a team depends less on your skills and more on the way you negotiate the environment.

The Lovers in AC requires teamwork, yeah, but the CC comes from boulders, not from your own build or your own skills.

The Graveling traps in AC require good timing with spikes more than anything else. Yes, the bait needs to know how to kite, and area denial/speed boost/teleport skills definitely help, but fundamentally this is an encounter that boils down to spike timing.

The ‘coordination’ element in dungeons doesn’t emphasize your profession or your skills or your build, usually. You’re coordinating through the environment.

This is a double edged sword. On the bright side: your build, profession and skills don’t matter—all you need to do is stick together, know how to rez, run out of red circles, or use the environment. On the down side: your build, profession and skills don’t matter, since all you need to do is stick together, know how to rez, run out of red circles or use the environment.

It’s a bizarre design philosophy which proudly claims that the trinity is dead and class roles are gone—but not because any class can do anything, but because nearly everything you can do within your profession is largely inconsequential.

(To be fair, this isn’t -always- the case. Lieutenant Kohler, for example, is a fight that benefits tremendously from someone who can grant Stability. This is a good example of teamwork where your skills actually matter.)

TLDR: The problem is that teamwork and coordination happens in a way that largely ignores the nuances of your profession. Instead of having a system where the trinity is dead because every character can perform every role, you have a system where the trinity is dead because no character can perform any role.

Eh, I think that you’re oversimplifying it a bit, your build definitely does matter. One example is that reflect skills can prove incredibly useful in dungeons. Lt. Kohler for example, can have his spinny attack completely shut down by feedback. And having someone with strong condition removal can be crucial when you fight a major condition damage boss like the big spider in AC. I know that, that fight gets A LOT harder when we don’t have our guard there.

Another example is in AC where you have to kill those graveling burrows before they kill Hodgins, you really need builds that can dish out high DPS to stationary objects that are immune to conditions. Like a fire wall or the guard’s symbols. I tried to do this with my mesmer, and it was torture lol.

And of course, you can build to maximize your team’s DPS by doing things like focusing on fields and finishers…like an Ele for example can get MASSIVE might stacks on their group if they keep making fire fields and doing finishers in them. Skills like time warp are also awesome for this.

I mean, I honestly don’t see what the standard tank and spank game has over this. Tank and spank was always INCREDIBLY boring to me. You did the SAME thing every single fight.

Northlander.4619:

I read the original post(s) and got a chuckle out of it. Basically the OP is saying everything they did with GW2 is wrong. What exactly are you expecting them to do? Spend next five years redesigning the game from scratch?

You are basically asking a new MMO. That being said. I do enjoy GW2 as it is. It has its flaws but a lot of things OP listed are good things in my books. Still, you can’t please everyone and I bet GW2 attracted a lot more folks initially than GW ever did. It will have its dedicated fans. I think people need to accept that no game is ever going to appeal for everyone.

Edit: Also very important thing to note is that Guild Wars 2 is not Guild Wars. They are different games.

I’m not sure you understand what forums are for or why it’s important to question design choices that deviate from developer promises.

There are many things in my post that can be worked on gradually and eventually made to perfection.

• It is definitely possible for ArenaNet to change the metagame and make it more reliant on skill builds and less on dodging.
• It is definitely possible for ArenaNet to change loot tables and restructure the way loot works in the game.
• It is definitely possible for ArenaNet to revisit their dungeons and create interesting game mechanics that challenge players.
• It is definitely possible for ArenaNet to completely remove levels and switch to a more traditional horizontal scale system.

Would it be easy? No. Would it take a long time and resources? Yes. Is it better for the game in general? I’d like to say yes, but apparently many players seem to think otherwise. When ArenaNet takes some time off, doesn’t release content every month and decides to work on specific areas of the game, we will see how players react.

I’m willing to bet many will leave.

dimgl.4786:

I’m not sure you understand what forums are for or why it’s important to question design choices that deviate from developer promises.

Don’t act snobby. It certainly won’t endear you to anyone. I’ve been around gaming communities enough to know that what you ask is not going to happen. You are asking something that would require massive redesign. Basically entirely new game.

I agree on some points you mention in this summary such as making more interesting dungeons and enemies. Others not so much.

Also people have this strange idea that if someone leaves the game temporarily they won’t be back. GW2 is not a subscription model game so you can come and go whenever you want.

What they need to do is to focus on providing polished content and not disasters like the lost shores. Most of the complains are centered around buggy, unrewarding, exclusive, and boring content. Not in the game mechanics itself.

@Creslin,

I’ll give you Reflection, Condition Removal and Stability. I mentioned Kohler in my first post actually, but it’s true—Stability really does trivialize that fight. I found this out when I decided to equip Stand Your Ground.

Kohler is an example of a fight done right. You need to be on the ball with rez, positioning and dodging, but you also need to time your utilities right, and you need to pick the right utilities for the fight.

It’s not that your skills make categorically no difference in fights across the board. It’s that your skills, your profession and therefore your build make consistently less of a difference in a fight than dodging and environmental awareness.

The result is disheartening, because all the toil you put in to fine-tuning a build really doesn’t mean anything. As a Guardian, I can be Spirit Weapons, Altruistic Healing, Pure of Voice, Deep Virtues, whatever. But fundamentally, my choice of build, my choice of weapon, my choice of utilities don’t make nearly as much of a difference in a fight compared to whether or not I dodged telegraphed attacks or ran out of red circles.

And that’s the problem. Dungeons are overtuned toward coordination via environment, dodging and spatial awareness, and far undertuned for profession/build/skill synergy.

When a game overemphasizes dodging and spatial awareness, and underemphasizes build diversity, and doesn’t reward timely use of utilities, you end up with a shallow combat system rather than a deep, tactically rich combat system.

Consequently we have a glass ceiling on player skill that’s about as pernicious as the old tank and spank model (in which your abilities/build didn’t matter so much because there was always one perfect build and one perfect rotation.)

We don’t have to go back to the tank/spank model. GW1 had a system where (with some notable exceptions) your build mattered and most professions could swap builds on the fly, and your role wasn’t pigeonholed into healer/dps/tank. City of Heroes had a system where a team of eight of any given profession could clear any given content; they’d just do it differently. Even Champions Online emphasized build diversity by rewarding builds that were balanced, with damage abilities on top of control and survivability.

It can be done. GW2 can do better. The combat system has amazing potential, but overdependence on dodging, environmental awareness and profession-agnostic tactics leads to a shallow system.

Northlander.4619:

dimgl.4786:

I’m not sure you understand what forums are for or why it’s important to question design choices that deviate from developer promises.

Don’t act snobby. It certainly won’t endear you to anyone. I’ve been around gaming communities to know that what you ask is not going to happen. You are asking something that would require massive redesign. Basically entirely new game. Not to mention it would go against design principles of GW2.

I agree on some points you mention in this summary such as making more interesting dungeons and enemies. Others not so much.

Also people have this strange idea that if someone leaves the game temporarily they won’t be back. GW2 is not a subscription model game so you can come and go whenever you want.

What they need to do is to focus on providing polished content and not disasters like the lost shores. Most of the complains are centered around buggy, unrewarding, exclusive, and boring content. Not in the game mechanics itself.

I agree with the last section of your post. However, the flaws I have pointed out are a blatant deviation from the manifesto. Regardless, I do agree the game needs more polished content and not bug fests. Fortunately, those are just growing pains that are part of every MMOs infancy.

The other flaws however have more permanent consequences… Only time will tell who is right and who is wrong.

dimgl.4786:

Northlander.4619:

I read the original post(s) and got a chuckle out of it. Basically the OP is saying everything they did with GW2 is wrong. What exactly are you expecting them to do? Spend next five years redesigning the game from scratch?

You are basically asking a new MMO. That being said. I do enjoy GW2 as it is. It has its flaws but a lot of things OP listed are good things in my books. Still, you can’t please everyone and I bet GW2 attracted a lot more folks initially than GW ever did. It will have its dedicated fans. I think people need to accept that no game is ever going to appeal for everyone.

Edit: Also very important thing to note is that Guild Wars 2 is not Guild Wars. They are different games.

I’m not sure you understand what forums are for or why it’s important to question design choices that deviate from developer promises.

There are many things in my post that can be worked on gradually and eventually made to perfection.

• It is definitely possible for ArenaNet to change the metagame and make it more reliant on skill builds and less on dodging.
• It is definitely possible for ArenaNet to change loot tables and restructure the way loot works in the game.
• It is definitely possible for ArenaNet to revisit their dungeons and create interesting game mechanics that challenge players.
• It is definitely possible for ArenaNet to completely remove levels and switch to a more traditional horizontal scale system.

Would it be easy? No. Would it take a long time and resources? Yes. Is it better for the game in general? I’d like to say yes, but apparently many players seem to think otherwise. When ArenaNet takes some time off, doesn’t release content every month and decides to work on specific areas of the game, we will see how players react.

I’m willing to bet many will leave.

Hehe well I would be willing to bet that you’re wrong…or at least if they do leave it won’t be for the reasons you describe. Here are my responses to your points…

* It is definitely possible for ArenaNet to change the metagame and make it more reliant on skill builds and less on dodging.

First off, I don’t really see why dodging is so bad. Second off, you have this thing called “Endurance” that makes it so you can’t dodge when it runs out. You can only dodge twice before having to wait for it to regenerate.

The way you talk makes it seem like you believe that you can just dodge endlessly and evade every attack. This is dead wrong. Just try making a pure glass cannon build that is COMPLETELY reliant on dodging for damage mitigation/avoidance and see how you fair. My guess is that you will die significantly more.

* It is definitely possible for ArenaNet to change loot tables and restructure the way loot works in the game.

I don’t really see a major issue here. I’m guessing this is going back to the whole vertical progression gripe that started with Ascended gear. But honestly, it’s a matter of taste. So long as the higher tier gear isn’t so powerful that it makes someone with it like 1.5x as strong as someone with lower tier gear, then I don’t think it’s a big deal…and we all know that ascended is not that powerful.

* It is definitely possible for ArenaNet to revisit their dungeons and create interesting game mechanics that challenge players.

In my post above I listed plenty dungeon mechanics that challenge players. No, I have not been to every dungeon. But every one I have been to had interesting mechanics.

* It is definitely possible for ArenaNet to completely remove levels and switch to a more traditional horizontal scale system.

Possible? Maybe. Monumentally stupid? Certainly.

Why the heck would ANet completely scrap their leveling system, which I have NEVER heard someone in-game complain about btw, to create an entirely new horizontal system? I don’t have anything against more horizontal systems, but that simply is not the game that GW2 is…and it shouldn’t be.

Eveningstar.6940:

@Creslin,

I’ll give you Reflection, Condition Removal and Stability. I mentioned Kohler in my first post actually, but it’s true—Stability really does trivialize that fight. I found this out when I decided to equip Stand Your Ground.

Kohler is an example of a fight done right. You need to be on the ball with rez, positioning and dodging, but you also need to time your utilities right, and you need to pick the right utilities for the fight.

It’s not that your skills make categorically no difference in fights across the board. It’s that your skills, your profession and therefore your build make consistently less of a difference in a fight than dodging and environmental awareness.

The result is disheartening, because all the toil you put in to fine-tuning a build really doesn’t mean anything. As a Guardian, I can be Spirit Weapons, Altruistic Healing, Pure of Voice, Deep Virtues, whatever. But fundamentally, my choice of build, my choice of weapon, my choice of utilities don’t make nearly as much of a difference in a fight compared to whether or not I dodged telegraphed attacks or ran out of red circles.

And that’s the problem. Dungeons are overtuned toward coordination via environment, dodging and spatial awareness, and far undertuned for profession/build/skill synergy.

When a game overemphasizes dodging and spatial awareness, and underemphasizes build diversity, and doesn’t reward timely use of utilities, you end up with a shallow combat system rather than a deep, tactically rich combat system.

Consequently we have a glass ceiling on player skill that’s about as pernicious as the old tank and spank model (in which your abilities/build didn’t matter so much because there was always one perfect build and one perfect rotation.)

We don’t have to go back to the tank/spank model. GW1 had a system where (with some notable exceptions) your build mattered and most professions could swap builds on the fly, and your role wasn’t pigeonholed into healer/dps/tank. City of Heroes had a system where a team of eight of any given profession could clear any given content; they’d just do it differently. Even Champions Online emphasized build diversity by rewarding builds that were balanced, with damage abilities on top of control and survivability.

It can be done. GW2 can do better. The combat system has amazing potential, but overdependence on dodging, environmental awareness and profession-agnostic tactics leads to a shallow system.

+1

Eveningstar.6940:

@Creslin,

I’ll give you Reflection, Condition Removal and Stability. I mentioned Kohler in my first post actually, but it’s true—Stability really does trivialize that fight. I found this out when I decided to equip Stand Your Ground.

Kohler is an example of a fight done right. You need to be on the ball with rez, positioning and dodging, but you also need to time your utilities right, and you need to pick the right utilities for the fight.

It’s not that your skills make categorically no difference in fights across the board. It’s that your skills, your profession and therefore your build make consistently less of a difference in a fight than dodging and environmental awareness.

The result is disheartening, because all the toil you put in to fine-tuning a build really doesn’t mean anything. As a Guardian, I can be Spirit Weapons, Altruistic Healing, Pure of Voice, Deep Virtues, whatever. But fundamentally, my choice of build, my choice of weapon, my choice of utilities don’t make nearly as much of a difference in a fight compared to whether or not I dodged telegraphed attacks or ran out of red circles.

And that’s the problem. Dungeons are overtuned toward coordination via environment, dodging and spatial awareness, and far undertuned for profession/build/skill synergy.

When a game overemphasizes dodging and spatial awareness, and underemphasizes build diversity, and doesn’t reward timely use of utilities, you end up with a shallow combat system rather than a deep, tactically rich combat system.

Consequently we have a glass ceiling on player skill that’s about as pernicious as the old tank and spank model (in which your abilities/build didn’t matter so much because there was always one perfect build and one perfect rotation.)

We don’t have to go back to the tank/spank model. GW1 had a system where (with some notable exceptions) your build mattered and most professions could swap builds on the fly, and your role wasn’t pigeonholed into healer/dps/tank. City of Heroes had a system where a team of eight of any given profession could clear any given content; they’d just do it differently. Even Champions Online emphasized build diversity by rewarding builds that were balanced, with damage abilities on top of control and survivability.

It can be done. GW2 can do better. The combat system has amazing potential, but overdependence on dodging, environmental awareness and profession-agnostic tactics leads to a shallow system.

Okay so imagine that GW2’s dungeons were tuned so that you absolutely REQUIRED certain builds/abilities to complete them. I can see a lot of bad things resulting from this.

First off, since dungeons don’t have a big signpost saying “Hey you need constant stability spam to win,” you would have several groups go into the dungeon, hit a wall, and have to leave. That really doesn’t sound like fun to me.

Second off, there are already a lot of complaints about groups being harder to find because of the Fractals difficulty levels. Can you imagine how bad it would be if certain builds were required to beat dungeons???
“LF stability guardian!”
“LF daze mesmer!”
“LF cond removal Ele!”
I certainly don’t want this, and if anything is against the manifesto…this would be it.

I dunno, I think that making things that EVERYONE can do like environmental awareness and coordination the required stuff, and making skills and builds just provide helpful little bonuses is the right approach.

Finally, I don’t really see why you guys are convinced that making skills and builds sine qua non if objectively “better” than the way it is. I really think it’s just a personal preference. And really, if you want skills and builds to be sine qua non…then just do Pvp.

Marvelously written and I do agree with many of the points that you brought to the table, but some I do not agree with (such as the dungeon part – I do find dungeons fun. They are not simply use all your skills and deal DPS, or heal, or tank, and many boss mechanics are quite interesting). I also want to point out that if ArenaNet added a ladder system, like the one in LoL, it would be much more popular and enjoyable despite the possibility that the community of sPvP could turn into a horrible one like the majority of the LoL community.

Eveningstar.6940:

@Creslin,

It can be done. GW2 can do better. The combat system has amazing potential, but overdependence on dodging, environmental awareness and profession-agnostic tactics leads to a shallow system.

There is a pretty sizable disparity in build choices. I’ve respec’d quite a few times and found that it’s hardly that much better to my play style than my other choices prior. Which is also a reason why i don’t have any problem with the 8% bonus ascended pieces have, in the realm of things (even in PvP) it’s negligible.

I don’t find however that positional awareness and environmental abilities are a shallow system when combined with an otherwise pretty straightforward and basic skill system. I don’t tire of my skills or skill choices, especially combined with the fact that i can’t really make an uber pwn-all-content build. It got to the point in GW and even in WoW that i’d get best-in-slot gear/weapons and trollop the content to shear boredom. People complained about long boss fights in Lost Shore, but that’s nothing compared to some other games dungeons that take 4 hours to complete. There’s a balance here between epic battles and the random mundane ones, i think that’s the crux, it’s just not quite right currently. Not every fight in a game is going to be memorable, but i’ve found quite a few more here than in most MMO’s or even SPRPG’s/

Okay so imagine that GW2’s dungeons were tuned so that you absolutely REQUIRED certain builds/abilities to complete them. I can see a lot of bad things resulting from this.

The easy fix to this is to allow every profession to have access to several boons/conditions/effects, along with the ability to swap between them on the fly.

The great news is this system is already in place. We can swap traits on the fly—we just don’t have a reason to yet. We can swap Utilities on the fly, and we should, but most of us don’t because it doesn’t help as much in the long run.

It’s so easy to avoid a situation where people are asking for, for example “Stability Guardian” because there’s no exclusivity for Stability and no exclusivity for Guardian. If you open up tactics for every profession, then theoretically, you don’t have an exclusionary PVE system where thieves and mesmers are being dropped from groups for guardians and warriors.

The great part is that the framework for such a system already exists. We already have a situation where nearly every profession can perform a necessary tactic. Everyone can spec for stability if they need to, usually on the fly and without respec costs. Everyone can inflict conditions and remove conditions.

We already have that system. We just need to improve it and make better use of it.

Finally, I don’t really see why you guys are convinced that making skills and builds sine qua non if objectively “better” than the way it is. I really think it’s just a personal preference.

Because builds should matter, and builds mattering doesn’t make the game worse for anyone else. This isn’t really a matter of personal preference, unless you actually prefer going through the trouble of making a build in PVE but having the strengths of that build rendered largely inconsequential by encounter designs that emphasize environmental awareness and dodging.

And even if that were the case, the environmental awareness + dodging would still remain an absolutely crucial part of the game. Coordination wouldn’t disappear. It wouldn’t fundamentally change. It would just became deeper, more varied, with more room for interesting tactics.

Finally, it shouldn’t be necessary to point out that I must have a personal preference in order to make an argument. I have to believe in a change that’s good for the game, and I have to believe in it strongly enough to try to convince you of it.

If all we’re going to do is walk past each other at arm’s length, behind a rhetorical shield of “Well, that’s just YOUR personal preference,” then why have a debate at all? Of course it’s my personal preference. I think it’s a good one and I’d like to convince you to see it my way through reason and discussion. And if I can’t convince you, then I respect our differences nonetheless.

I agree with your post. Well maybe not for the combat because I find it fun.

It’s weird really. The advertised this game as being “different”, how they were working hard on it, had excellent QA team to test the content before it was pushed to the game, and game still has such fundamental problems like horrible camera, poor character creation and lack of skill customization?

I agree with the armor. It’s not very customizable. In GW1 you bought highest defense armor for small fee and customized it with runes and insignias that would cost you 50k+ if you wanted a really great armor for a specific build. All armor more expensive like that was purely for showing off, like obsidian or vabbian.

They just tried to blend with the crowd in the end, not really stick out. If this doesn’t slowly destroy them, I don’t know what will. It seems to me like no new MMO has the balls to be different anymore.

Eveningstar.6940:

Okay so imagine that GW2’s dungeons were tuned so that you absolutely REQUIRED certain builds/abilities to complete them. I can see a lot of bad things resulting from this.

The easy fix to this is to allow every profession to have access to several boons/conditions/effects, along with the ability to swap between them on the fly.

The great news is this system is already in place. We can swap traits on the fly—we just don’t have a reason to yet. We can swap Utilities on the fly, and we should, but most of us don’t because it doesn’t help as much in the long run.

It’s so easy to avoid a situation where people are asking for, for example “Stability Guardian” because there’s no exclusivity for Stability and no exclusivity for Guardian. If you open up tactics for every profession, then theoretically, you don’t have an exclusionary PVE system where thieves and mesmers are being dropped from groups for guardians and warriors.

The great part is that the framework for such a system already exists. We already have a situation where nearly every profession can perform a necessary tactic. Everyone can spec for stability if they need to, usually on the fly and without respec costs. Everyone can inflict conditions and remove conditions.

We already have that system. We just need to improve it and make better use of it.

Finally, I don’t really see why you guys are convinced that making skills and builds sine qua non if objectively “better” than the way it is. I really think it’s just a personal preference.

Because builds should matter, and builds mattering doesn’t make the game worse for anyone else. This isn’t really a matter of personal preference, unless you actually prefer going through the trouble of making a build in PVE but having the strengths of that build rendered largely inconsequential by encounter designs that emphasize environmental awareness and dodging.

And even if that were the case, the environmental awareness + dodging would still remain an absolutely crucial part of the game. Coordination wouldn’t disappear. It wouldn’t fundamentally change. It would just became deeper, more varied, with more room for interesting tactics.

Finally, it shouldn’t be necessary to point out that I must have a personal preference in order to make an argument. I have to believe in a change that’s good for the game, and I have to believe in it strongly enough to try to convince you of it.

If all we’re going to do is walk past each other at arm’s length, behind a rhetorical shield of “Well, that’s just YOUR personal preference,” then why have a debate at all? Of course it’s my personal preference. I think it’s a good one and I’d like to convince you to see it my way through reason and discussion. And if I can’t convince you, then I respect our differences nonetheless.

Well I will respect our differences as well then.

I mean…in the end, I really enjoy the game in its current state. So there’s not really anything you’re going to say that would make me change my mind.