Guild Wars 2

After some rather extensive periods of both puzzled frustration and as thorough investigation as I can manage in a field that is typically rather difficult to define, I’ve decided to make a post regarding SOME of the issues with the Guildwars UI and camera control systems in terms of player input and perception.

Note that I say “some” mostly because I know there are more issues that I’m having with the control scheme than what will be included in this post, but its an area that I find fairly difficult to evaluate because so much relates to concepts that I have previously dealt with instinctively and in terms of how they “feel” rather than having to quantify objectively. So, bear with me as I fumble my way through some of these issues!

Also note that these are observations made based on my personal experience and whilst they may not apply to everyone, they are certainly common to a number of my Guildwars 2 aqquaintances.

I’ll start simple and work my way into the more difficult issues.

1. MAXIMUM CAMERA ZOOM DISTANCE IS NOT VERY…..DISTANT.

I seem to recall observing in some literature somewhere that this was an intentional design decision (although I cannot recall what the cited reason for it was). I can sort of buy this and have seen it in other games at least a few times, but I don’t like it at all and additionally there is one particular glaring issue with it that leaps right out at me and waves it arms about. NOT ALL CHARACTERS ARE THE SAME SIZE.

This is a matter rooted firmly in perception, since the actual environmental exposure for a smaller character is in fact no larger than that available to a bigger character, but the amount of space onscreen that some of the tall, bulky avatars take up relative to the smaller ones certainly makes it SEEM as if the view distance is significantly different in each case. It contributes to a requirement that players spend more time shifting the camera about to view their surroundings (see points 2 and 3) as well as a claustrophobic screen feel for those of my characters that I have opted to make chunky.

2. CAMERA ROTATION SPEED IS VERY, VERY SLOW.

I have again read on several occasions that this is a design choice rather than a technical limitation which I admit I find fundamentally difficult to swallow. Is the aim here to achieve some sort of pseudo-realism in terms of response to external stimuli or something? Is the camera trying to simulate a person having to react and then respond to events happening around them in a realistic frame of time and movement? I’m not really sure, but personally I find that this latency of rotational movement leads me to overcompensate in a lot of circumstances TRYING to rotate my camera at a speed which the game deliberately prevents.

It feels very counterintuitive as well as unresponsive and to be honest I have resorted to seriously ramping up the hardware DPI setting on my mouse just to attempt to offset this, which I dont feel should be at all necessary and has only provided limited success to boot. I would be interested in hearing the reasoning behind this particular limitation.

3. ACCELERATION/DECCELERATION DURING CAMERA ROTATION.

This issue ties in to some degree with the issue above. The rate at which acceleration/decceleration of movement occurs when rotating the camera feels very strange to me. It almost feels as if there is a cap to how fast the rotation will accelerate or deccelerate unless I really jerk the mouse hard, at which point it will spin crazily in a not very useful manner. Acceleration is not a feature of mouse based movement that I generally view favourably in most circumstances and this is no exception.

To my mind acceleration does nothing but provide an additional factor for the human brain to compensate for during mouse movement. This problem is compounded by the fact that the rate of acceleration/decceleration feels so exaggerated or like it has a substantial “wind up/down” in Guildwars 2.

This draws out the relatively simple procedure of turning my character by requiring that I not only pay attention to all the things already happening on my screen, but also having to instinctively try and grasp how much “lead” time I require during my camera rotation to accomodate for the front and back end acceleration/decceleration. Again, a fact made worse by the seemingly exaggerated nature of the “speed up” and “slow down” of the camera during rapid movement.

4. THE CAMERA “ZOOMS IN” AND THEN “ZOOMS OUT” UNACCOUNTABLY DURING RAPID ROTATION.

This one completely baffles and frustrates the hell out of me. In the majority of my previous gaming experience, the camera traditionally only zooms in during movement/rotation to acomodate for when its plane has connected with either an obsctruction it is passing (trees, rocks, buildings etc) or collides with the ground (at which point it tends to zoom in at foot level and tilt up).

Not only does the guildwars camera tend to completely ignore collision with a lot of environmental objects (hello screen suddenly swamped by tree branches and bushes), but during rapid rotation of the camera it will zoom in even when the camera is on a flat plane (i.e. does not pass by anything that could obstruct it nor does it connect with the ground) and then zoom out again as the rotation comes to its end.

I do not know why this occurs, nor what the reasoning behind it is, but again, given that the extent of my previous gaming experience involves cameras which close in on the player for reasons of obstruction, this feature of the Guildwars 2 camera schema is causing me to attempt to re-adjust my camera based on the somewhat subconscious assumption I have in fact collided my camera with something and need to move it either up (to get it away from the ground) or down (in case it has hit a cliff or somesuch behind and above me) when in fact this type of adjustment does NOT need to take place at all.

This is not an ocurrence (at least for me) that simply requires a re-adjustment or “getting used” to the new format. I find this tends to run against my instincts and requires I actively and repeatedly force behaviour that is not the norm, which in circumstances of high pressure and or focus can sometimes divert an (i think) unnecessary amount of attention towards reinforcing uninstinctual behaviour.

5. ROTATING THE CAMERA WHILST HOLDING LEFT CLICK CAUSES FREQUENT DETARGETTING OR SELECTION OF NEW TARGETS.

This one strikes me as more of a technical issue and I’m even inclined to suggest its a bug that isn’t functioning as intended. After some careful observation what I believe this one comes down to is the fact that target selection seems to be processed when a key (or in this case mouse button) is pressed DOWN, rather than when the key is RELEASED. If target selection using mouse clicks were processed on key release, then the target could not possibly be changed or deselected while i was holding the mouse button down to rotate my camera, but would in fact require that I click the button its entirety (click THEN release) whilst the cursor was over the target in question.

The latter is the case in most every game I have ever played and I cannot fathom a reason that would provide preference for the other method. Hence the suggestion that this is not functioning as intended and requires a bugfix.

6. THE PERCEPTION OF SLUGGISH CAMERA RESPONSIVENESS CREATES MENTAL AND PHYSICAL STRESS.

I know this one sounds absurd and I am not in any way suggesting that people will have stress induced breakdowns due to camera function, but with a lot of these issues that I have trouble “defining” or that I dont really understand/notice on a conscious level, I find that the required level of focus to help manage them is much more heightened and as a result I am….tenser.

Elevated levels of focus result in higher levels of tension, or at least I am noticing this for myself. The overall “awkward” feel of the camera control certainly requires me to focus a lot more in order to effectively manage it and the results are noticeable when I stop and observe them.

7. THE GUILDWARS 2 CAMERA CONTROLS INHIBIT THE USE OF PREDICTION AS A TOOL FOR MOVEMENT.

I find this one is very difficult to articulate. My experience and observations suggest to me that human beings will attempt to “predict” things when they figure out that they can reliably do so. In gaming as well as other areas prediction is often a much quicker and more intuitive method of accomplishing certain goals than reacting is. In a gaming environment, mouse movement and camera control in particular are heavily tied in with prediction as opposed to visual feedback. Players will often act based on predictions of what they need to do, rather than waiting for visual feedback to react to.

The control scheme in Guildwars 2, with its sluggish response times, limited movement speeds, disorienting, awkward feel and most importantly its profound inconsistencies, promotes a lack of confidence in ones ability to reliably predict required movement based responses and thus force greater reliance on visual feedback as the primary means of movement and control, resulting in a tendency for the entire process to be rendered less efficient and more reactive.

The above points are some of the issues that I have with the control scheme (specifically camera controls) in Guildwars 2. The overall clunky, unresponsive and disorienting “feel” of the system truly concern me and I welcome feedback on either the issues I have discussed, or indeed any additional points that others may feel deserve mention.

I found that when I was doing the jumping puzzles back to back for a couple hours to get the acheivments, I started getting motion sickness. The constant camera panning back and forth and quick zoom-ins when near walls when you move the camera didnt go over well with me. Dont know if this was because of fps issues, I was moving the camera too fast or what, but I never got this sensation with other games before.

I hear you Lotusedge. There are countless other issues with cameras, walls, the interaction of the odd camera movement with lower FPS levels and a whole host of other little issues which are all problematic as well. I havent managed any motion sickness yet, but at this point nothing surprises me. I simply compiled a list of the ones that I could define the best. Had to start somewhere!

Number 5. is my biggest gripe out of all the camera problems especially in dungeons!!!

DandySlayer, I find it wreaks absolute havoc in WvW as well. Nothing like missing a stomp or a kill when the camera decides “oh, that guy is a better target, shoot him instead!”

God, I love constructive criticism. This post is refreshing: it by no means bashes ANet, GW2, or players. It just poses a problem AND, most importantly, possible solutions. THIS is how you voice your problems and concerns.

Thank you very much, OP.

1. The camera’s max distance is actually greater than it was originally. However, I think a few more meters wouldn’t hurt, especially for Norn and Charr.

2. This can be adjusted in the options menu

3. I don’t experience this, but have heard of many people who do. I really can’t comment.

4 and 5. Completely agree. Especially on 5.

6 and 7. Again, have not experienced these issues.

Personally, I believe that the Combat Mode Mod Demo takes away most of the glaring issues with the camera by removing the right click and having the camera fixed on the user’s back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BpdgW_G4FyU

However, it IS a mod, so ANet would not approve of players using it. They are aware of it’s existence, though, and hopefully will consider utilizing something similar.

Hiya Vorch! Thanks for your reply. I was unaware that the camera distance was actually improved. I do have to admit I find the idea it was even closer than it is currently more than a little scarey o.o. Good to see that it was changed initially I guess, maybe some more room for improvement?

As for number two being adjustable in the options menu, I’m totally aware of this My in game rotation speed was set to max within 5 minutes of logging in for the first time (and I honestly still found it woefully too slow) and subsequently I cranked the DPI on my mouse waaaaaaay up and still only barely find the movement speed tolerable. I honestly believe there could be some tweaks made here that really wouldnt affect game balance at all and would drastically improve quality of life for players.

A number of the remaining points were my attempts to put into words feelings that just….weren’t quite right with the way the camera moves and responds. I’m not sure how successful I’ve been, but having shared my thoughts with friends and so on, there’s at least some agreement on points 3, 6 and 7 in terms of something being consistently off in the way that camera movement feels. Specifics will no doubt vary from player to player.

The linked mod looks like sort of an interesting take!. As stated its a mod, which the EULA sort of explicitly prohibits Not to mention I’m not entirely certain it would be the solution I would opt for regardless. You’re right insofar as it uh, “circumvents” the problems mentioned by removing the ability to click and rotate? But that doesn’t really seem to suggest fixing the problems to me so much as capitulating to them and removing functionality :P

thank you op. that is what all critics should do when they have problems in the game and not like they do with raging and things like that. for me the camerai is ok. sometimes it seems a little slow but i adjusted mouse speed and it is ok now. also i agree with the left mouse button, selection of things should be done after the releaseand not the press in the button.

I adjusted the camera speed to match my mouse’s DPI (a little over 5000) and it helped a lot. Though yeah I have a big problem with 5 especially on my elementalist.

I totally agree with OP. If they would just fix the rotation speed and responsiveness, then I’d be happy. Even though it’s probably not the optimum way to play, I still find myself using the the keyboard for turning (yeah I know). Hate to compare GW with games like WoW and Rift, but in the department of camera rotation GW got it wrong and it just feels delayed and unresponsive.

I absolutely loath the camera and FOV the only thing that keeps me playing is siege warfare. In beta there were similar threads with no official response. This leads me to believe that it will never change and they just don’t want to come out and say it.

The FoV is also fairly narrow.

Thanks everyone for responding!

Something I’d also like to suggest is that if anyone has developed any tips and tricks for making the camera controls more manageable and less unwieldy (note to any Arenanet employees, this is not in any way condoning the current state of the camera, only seeking ways to cope with it until time is found for the issues to be addressed!) then by all means please share, that we may all have a more enjoyable, less eyeball itching experience.

For example in my post I mentioned raising the DPI setting for your mouse. If you can do this somehow, its a pretty useful method of helping to combat the very slow inherent movement speed and rotation of the camera.

Any other pearls of wisdom I stumble across I will certainly endeavour to share.

Number 5 times 1,000,000. The thing is you can rotate with right click without selecting something else or deselecting. Completely boggles my mind why left click isn’t like this.

Most of the other camera issues bothered me at first but I found bumping the camera speed up quite a bit remedies it quite well.

Also, on a slightly unrelated note – being able to control your jump is somewhat silly and non intuitive. Not a big deal but it just feels weird. To clarify, I’m talking about being able to jump at a standstill and then move around mid air.

“I’m talking about being able to jump at a standstill and then move around mid air.”

To be fair, I don’t think this is an issue exclusive to guildwars. I think it feels like an immersion damaging aspect definitely (as well as being a functional faux pas at times), but I’ve long since despaired of actually finding a game that implements a physics system that doesnt feel very artificial and…..wonky. It just doesn’t seem to be all that high on the priority list of most developers :P

Whilst I have no doubt that awareness of the above issues on the part of Arenanet exists, given that our friendly neighbourhood game designer JonPeters has recently mentioned some of the camera issues present in game (or at least alluded to), I’m going to nudge my thread in the hopes it gets some official attention. Hopefully the information contained herein will be of some value when various improvements to the game camera are being considered.

Here’s a couple of things I think would help the game in regards to camera functions.

When looking up it would be nice if the camera’s pivot point rises. So that you aren’t looking at your characters semi transparent face polygons when you want to look above their head instead. The camera should pan upwards as it pivots, so that the character is no longer on screen when looking up at steep angles.

It would be nice if terrain and sprites faded when it obstructed camera view, instead of forcing the camera to snap zoom to the character. That would stop the camrea from being so jerky in cramped spaces, and stop foliage from obscuring player view. The queensdale apple orchard always covers the screen when walking under the trees unless I zoom the camera right into my character’s back.

Signed and bumped to top.

Support this 100%. As much as I love gw2, I prefer a more responsive feel like wow. Honestly, that’s what I was expecting. I’ve tried dozens of mmos and this is the first mmo-ever to feel this different (for example Rift feels great). I haven’t played the game much because of this reason and I really want to, but the the camera and overall movement makes the game nearly unplayable for me. My friends abandoned the game for the same reason. I don’t know anything about developing a game and perhaps there are good reasons behind this; so if these mechanic are set in stone and aren’t going to change, then I guess gw2 wasn’t the game for me afterall. Thank you for your time.

~Juanito

1. MAXIMUM CAMERA ZOOM DISTANCE IS NOT VERY…..DISTANT.

Zoom distance is fine. It’s an extremely limited FoV that’s the problem, it creates an artificial “zoomed in” feel no matter how far you zoom out.

“As much as I love gw2, I prefer a more responsive feel like wow. Honestly, that’s what I was expecting. I’ve tried dozens of mmos and this is the first mmo-ever to feel this different (for example Rift feels great).”

Agreed. Even Swtor’s controls and camera are better. This is the major dislike i have with GW2. They tried to make it a more realistic feeling with strafing, and it just doesn’t feel right. Hopefully they fix this with their next big update.

juanitobgoode.1079:

Support this 100%. As much as I love gw2, I prefer a more responsive feel like wow. Honestly, that’s what I was expecting. I’ve tried dozens of mmos and this is the first mmo-ever to feel this different (for example Rift feels great). I haven’t played the game much because of this reason and I really want to, but the the camera and overall movement makes the game nearly unplayable for me. My friends abandoned the game for the same reason. I don’t know anything about developing a game and perhaps there are good reasons behind this; so if these mechanic are set in stone and aren’t going to change, then I guess gw2 wasn’t the game for me afterall. Thank you for your time.

~Juanito

Agree on the camera. I Removed the game client today. The camera was killing the game for me. Movement wasn’t fluid either. It created a mess for jumping situations. I had finally had enough and abandoned the game like your friends did.

There were other issues too. The game seemed lonely to me. No real reason or motivation to play with others. Another issue was the game just seemed punitive. I felt like it was designed to hassle a player than to just let them play. (diminishing rewards, grind, downleveling, excessive waypoint costs, guild restrictions) I also found it disturbing that there was a lack of information when problems arose.

However, The camera was the last straw for me.

lotusedge.6743:

I found that when I was doing the jumping puzzles back to back for a couple hours to get the acheivments, I started getting motion sickness. The constant camera panning back and forth and quick zoom-ins when near walls when you move the camera didnt go over well with me. Dont know if this was because of fps issues, I was moving the camera too fast or what, but I never got this sensation with other games before.

For jump puzzles I put on free camera so the camera won’t rotate automatically. It helps immensely.

Redfeather.6401:

It would be nice if terrain and sprites faded when it obstructed camera view, instead of forcing the camera to snap zoom to the character. That would stop the camrea from being so jerky in cramped spaces, and stop foliage from obscuring player view. The queensdale apple orchard always covers the screen when walking under the trees unless I zoom the camera right into my character’s back.

This!

The camera distance should stay pretty much static unless I move it myself It needs to stop jerking and panning and bouncing all over the place when I get too close to something. this is absolutely ridiculous. If I want to movew the camera, I’ll use my mouse and move it.

Redfeather.6401:

Here’s a couple of things I think would help the game in regards to camera functions.

When looking up it would be nice if the camera’s pivot point rises. So that you aren’t looking at your characters semi transparent face polygons when you want to look above their head instead. The camera should pan upwards as it pivots, so that the character is no longer on screen when looking up at steep angles.

It would be nice if terrain and sprites faded when it obstructed camera view, instead of forcing the camera to snap zoom to the character. That would stop the camrea from being so jerky in cramped spaces, and stop foliage from obscuring player view. The queensdale apple orchard always covers the screen when walking under the trees unless I zoom the camera right into my character’s back.

Very well put. Both suggestions would be a very welcome addition to Guild Wars 2. It does seem that they’ve tweaked the camera a few times since the BWE’s – for example, the camera doesn’t seem to go right down to the feet of your character when you view upwards – instead, it’s now more like GW1.

The jerky camera (the camera collision issues) are quite a biggie at the moment. I so want to play my asura character, but just doing something simple as using steps, is painful to watch. I’ve put a little 30 second video together, illustrating some of these bugs:

I just got the game a couple days ago and the first thing I noticed was how slow the camera rotation speed was. I immediately upped the camera speed all the way and there was hardly a change. I went back to playing Rift because this felt so unnatural. Even when turning the screen with the mouse the response time is slow. Hope this gets addressed in future patches.