Guild Wars 2

I’ve played gw2 for years. Gw2’s combat system consists of the ‘soft’ trinity of —- damage, control, support. I’ve embraced it over the years, but lately I’ve reconsidered. Gw2’s combat is very choatic, whether it’s in dungeons, raids or the open-world. There’s a lack of a coherent structure to it.

With the release of HoT and the elite specs, the trinity has sort of made its way to gw2. My question is this. Why not fully embrace it? It’s not a question of if you want the trinity or not. It’s already here. My reasons and arguments for this are as follows.

1. All we need is a tank—With the introduction of the taunt mechanic, there is now a way to draw enemy aggro and control mobs, although it’s limited. “Control” in gw2’s traditional way is not useful at all. First off, there are cooldowns. A warrior’s ‘Kick’ or ‘Stomp’, as an example, should be used constantly and should have cooldowns of only 2 secs. See? NOW you’re controlling mobs.

2. We already have support—Eles, druids, guards, need I say more? Eles and druids can heal. Guards are basically smiting monks from gw1.

It’s unfortunate that people are so hostile to the trinity. However, the trinity is simply a way to structure combat. It has nothing to do with classes, but with roles. Also, more importantly, you’re not limited by roles. They just exist. Roles add tradeoffs and challenges, they’re a good thing.

Gw1 was really successful this way. Even though ANet added a lot of skills and balancing them was a nightmare, they got away with it. Why? Gw1 had structurally sound and organized combat. Combat had checks and balances. You really didn’t need to balance the skills and the game, the game did that for you through its combat.

I wouldn’t abandon the encounters that work without a tank simply because it requires better awareness for the entirety of the group. It makes it so you pay more attention to your positioning the positioning of the boss etc.

Yes that in a way exist in games with proper tanking but in a lesser extend. With that being said i do not disagree that theres a place for tanking because there is and it creates diff fights which is always good variety is good.

I believe you connect tanking with agro management and that already exist in game more so in raids (with actual absolute tanking through toughness and fixation which is more unpredictable and dynamic). Control in gw2 does come from agro management it rather comes through means to disable the enemy and rent them unable to threat your party. That happens with blinds, pulls, stuns, knockbacks etc, this style promotes a group aproach to the control department of the game something that is quite unique to gw2. Sure you can have a “tank” which is kind of better at doing that but not to the point were the tank is the only one who does that while the rest are either healers or dps’.

If they added the trinity to the whole game, I seriously consider leaving. I don’t think it makes the game better. It makes the game less plausible. I mean if I were reading Lord of the Rings and everyone only attacked Boromir while Gandalf healed him and the hobbits were never in danger, it would have ruined the book.

Some of us are interested in mechanics above all else. Some of us are interested in immersion. To me, the trinity is the worst thing to ever happen to this genre.

zealex.9410:

I wouldn’t abandon the encounters that work without a tank simply because it requires better awareness for the entirety of the group. It makes it so you pay more attention to your positioning the positioning of the boss etc.

Yes that in a way exist in games with proper tanking but in a lesser extend. With that being said i do not disagree that theres a place for tanking because there is and it creates diff fights which is always good variety is good.

I believe you connect tanking with agro management and that already exist in game more so in raids (with actual absolute tanking through toughness and fixation which is more unpredictable and dynamic). Control in gw2 does come from agro management it rather comes through means to disable the enemy and rent them unable to threat your party. That happens with blinds, pulls, stuns, knockbacks etc, this style promotes a group aproach to the control department of the game something that is quite unique to gw2. Sure you can have a “tank” which is kind of better at doing that but not to the point were the tank is the only one who does that while the rest are either healers or dps’.

The problem I have with how gw2 does “control” is that it’s not enough to disable the enemy, you have to draw their aggression. Drawing the aggression has a strategic effect for everybody else. It gives you more immediate CONTROL of the fight. Besides taunt, which is used in a limited fashion, there’s no other way to truly control mobs. Not to mention, disabling requires more micro-management and you can easily lose control of the enemy mob.

If you want to make control and disabling work, they need to be constant so mobs don’t disperse and get away. To do that, you have to eliminate cooldowns. A warrior’s ‘Stomp’, for example should NOT be 40 seconds lol. Even then, there’s a small chance that mobs get away from you.

I think the big thing of taunt is that it is another good skill used to break bars or interrupt a skill. So it is not entirely useless. Yes it can obviously pull a mob to attack you or your pet for a split second or 2. However I don’t think the point of that skill was to bring in the hard Trinity.

As others have said that would make the game far less than what it is now for them. The combat system can indeed seem chaotic, very chaotic at times especially in WvW/PvP and big group events. But I think this is more the effects going off everywhere and lets not forget to mention all the Clones/Pets/Minions/Thief Elite summons etc etc. Maybe if some of THAT was scaled back the combat would not seem so chaotic.

There is structure atm but that mainly is only seen when the break bar is there on a Boss or tough enemy. And as such the structure is that everyone has to work together to break that bar and then burn as much damage as possible. It’s not the greatest but it is a start.

What we need is more things like this where players have to work together to take down an enemy. What they could do to add to this (going to plug a suggestion here now devs so pay attention! :P) is bring in enemies or bosses that need to be killed in certain ways (outside of raids/dungeons) that does not include the current break bar. Example it could be that regular damage is so low it is pointless to do it, however if you manage to pull off a combo on the beast – BAM damage will start to make an impact. Do enough combos during the fight and he will be taken down. It’s just things like this they need to add more of. But please, no more environment/outside things to pick up and use, or lever to pull here, or xxx to do at yyy. I find those boring and takes away from our actual chars doing things and using their skills. Use what we have but in NEW ways!

I do get what you are saying OP about some skills tho. For example blocking (with a shield in most cases) you would think is something you should be able to do whenever you like or for how long you like. We can auto attack non stop so why not blocking!? And of course the answer is because all of our other skills (and thus the skills of your enemy in any sort of pvp mode) have cooldowns for “balance” and so of course blocking needs 1 as well.

Sure they could add a system on top where we do have a few extra actions available non stop such as blocking or maybe say a control skill. Perhaps a dedicated skill slot which has a few options such as block/pull/taunt that has NO cooldowns. Something like this could add a bit more spice to the game but they would have to take a lot of things into account and adjust things for it. Example – apply the same skill slot to most mobs so they can become a challenge again. But then the game has gone down the path of being more of an “action” “real time” game than the “turn based/semi action” hybrid that we have right now.

Phew I have said a lot and need to stop lol.

Gw2’s combat consists of the soft trinity of damage, control, support. I admit, although I’ve given it a chance for a long time, I’m starting to reconsider it. With the release of HoT and the elite specs, gw2 has taken a small step towards the trinity. Why not embrace it?

Whether in dungeons, fractals, raids or the open-world, damage is still king. The soft trinity guarantees this. Why? Control doesn’t exist and support only exists to sustain damage. There really is no punishment for stacking as much damage as possible against enemies. The way gw2 does “control” is by disabling enemies with cc, knockdowns, stuns. However, disabling only lasts for a couple seconds and you lose control of mobs. There’s just no reliable way to draw aggro and mobs in this game so support can be more viable.

IMO, the hostility against the trinity just doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. A lot of people say that the trinity limits build diversity and roles, but look at what we have now: “PS/warr” “condi chrono” “DH GS/torch” All for the sake of MORE damage. Raids are yesterday’s dungeons. If you don’t follow the meta…gtfo.

It’s just NOT true when people say the trinity is limited or obsolete. The trinity is just a way to structure and organize combat. It works. There’s a reason why multiple MMOs have historically used it.

JTGuevara.9018:

Gw2’s combat consists of the soft trinity of damage, control, support. I admit, although I’ve given it a chance for a long time, I’m starting to reconsider it. With the release of HoT and the elite specs, gw2 has taken a small step towards the trinity. Why not embrace it?

Whether in dungeons, fractals, raids or the open-world, damage is still king. The soft trinity guarantees this. Why? Control doesn’t exist and support only exists to sustain damage. There really is no punishment for stacking as much damage as possible against enemies. The way gw2 does “control” is by disabling enemies with cc, knockdowns, stuns. However, disabling only lasts for a couple seconds and you lose control of mobs. There’s just no reliable way to draw aggro and mobs in this game so support can be more viable.

IMO, the hostility against the trinity just doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. A lot of people say that the trinity limits build diversity and roles, but look at what we have now: “PS/warr” “condi chrono” “DH GS/torch” All for the sake of MORE damage. Raids are yesterday’s dungeons. If you don’t follow the meta…gtfo.

It’s just NOT true when people say the trinity is limited or obsolete. The trinity is just a way to structure and organize combat. It works. There’s a reason why multiple MMOs have historically used it.

The conventional trinity is limited.

The way GW2 handles it technically allows for anyone to fill any role (some will fit easier than others) which makes them less limited however, just with any game an optimal play pattern (Meta) will arise and people will still complain about it…..

This game was suppose to be a play it your way.

HOT came out and pushed people into the small trinity we headed into too.

A small % of the people who were playing this game liked it. Someone posted GW2 Quarterly sales and its lower the base GW2 at year 3. HOT has been out for a year or so and it catered to everyone who doesnt play GW2.

It messed up PvP, WvW and a huge group did not like the meta maps which was 3/4 maps for HOT.

When you increased the speed of game play probably around 2-3 times. Destroy build diversity, cant deliver on promises given before HOT came out.

You destroy a trust you have with your player base.

Lets be honest, GW2 was casual friendly with WvW, PvP, Dungeons suppose to be the end game game play. They tried to make raids that content for hardcore players.

They probably should head in the direction you are suggesting but a problem is GW2 player base was not into the trinity. Heck GW1 is about playing X class then picking up another class to fill a different role. For instance i played monk/necro.

Why u needed to make this thread twice the first one is not remove or anything? Iircc you answered me with claims that the control i gw2 last only a few seconds and that its not enough an mobs run around. Now that depends are you talkinga bout bosses or mobs? If mobs then you are wrong because mobs have small healthy pulls and that makes it so pullling bliding interupting stunning them etc is enough to diable them and deal with them swiftly and without any trouble for bosses that varies depending on the boss i coud argue that yes the bosses might be more chaotic but the means in gw2 make so you have control over it with stacking getting fixated or blocking attacks and dodging. All these things that every class has make it so there doesnt need to be a tank to soak up the dmg because all the classes contributee to dmg prevention and control. The control only last too little if only one does it or all do it badly and dmg prevention or recovery doesnt work because ppl dont properly prepare for it or heal/recover from it after wards.

kdaddy.5431:

This game was suppose to be a play it your way.

HOT came out and pushed people into the small trinity we headed into too.

A small % of the people who were playing this game liked it. Someone posted GW2 Quarterly sales and its lower the base GW2 at year 3. HOT has been out for a year or so and it catered to everyone who doesnt play GW2.

It messed up PvP, WvW and a huge group did not like the meta maps which was 3/4 maps for HOT.

When you increased the speed of game play probably around 2-3 times. Destroy build diversity, cant deliver on promises given before HOT came out.

You destroy a trust you have with your player base.

Lets be honest, GW2 was casual friendly with WvW, PvP, Dungeons suppose to be the end game game play. They tried to make raids that content for hardcore players.

They probably should head in the direction you are suggesting but a problem is GW2 player base was not into the trinity. Heck GW1 is about playing X class then picking up another class to fill a different role. For instance i played monk/necro.

I like how you took the small opportunity to poor out all that salt xD and no other than a few bosses in raids there is no trinity in anyother part of the game that would make it suggest that we are heading there.

zealex.9410:

Why u needed to make this thread twice the first one is not remove or anything? Iircc you answered me with claims that the control i gw2 last only a few seconds and that its not enough an mobs run around. Now that depends are you talkinga bout bosses or mobs? If mobs then you are wrong because mobs have small healthy pulls and that makes it so pullling bliding interupting stunning them etc is enough to diable them and deal with them swiftly and without any trouble for bosses that varies depending on the boss i coud argue that yes the bosses might be more chaotic but the means in gw2 make so you have control over it with stacking getting fixated or blocking attacks and dodging. All these things that every class has make it so there doesnt need to be a tank to soak up the dmg because all the classes contributee to dmg prevention and control. The control only last too little if only one does it or all do it badly and dmg prevention or recovery doesnt work because ppl dont properly prepare for it or heal/recover from it after wards.

First off, why not make another thread? I made that one in a different forum. Nothing wrong with that. :P

Second, stuns, interrupts, pulls, etc tend to be have a single target, so more enemies get away from you and attack your allies. The real crowd-control is taunt, although it’s limited. Taunts have the double effect of not only disabling your enemies but more importantly attracting them towards you and away from your allies.

With bosses, it’s worse because they have breakbars. You have to cc them multiple times and they’re immune to taunt. Still, the situation is a bit better than before.

Paulytnz.7619:

I think the big thing of taunt is that it is another good skill used to break bars or interrupt a skill. So it is not entirely useless. Yes it can obviously pull a mob to attack you or your pet for a split second or 2. However I don’t think the point of that skill was to bring in the hard Trinity.

The trinity is basically halfway here. We have damage. We have support. All we need is a utility skill on a 5-10 cooldown that taunts a group of enemies from 1200-1500 range with high tough/vit and BAM. Trinity.

The only thing a trinity is is just a forced, developer-side meta.

The chaos of combat in GW2 and focus on everything at once is what makes it so excellent, and what was a huge can-opener in how to make many builds viable.

Outside of raids, the existence of PvE metas were solely determined by players as a means of completing content efficiently. The lack of diverse encounters and changes to the dungeon scene were ultimately what culminated in so much toxicity and elitism. Forcing a trinity doesn’t do anything to resolve the issue.

Seeing as the lack of trinity is a fundamental pillar of what defines GW2, I’d prefer it not to change (it’s the sole reason I even gave this game any consideration at all, initially, and was a huge bonus to others), and I don’t think it’d be in ANet’s best interests to do such a thing.

In some raid encounters, the tank is using Toughness to reliably generate aggro. So, we have tanks, healers, support and damage. We also have condi damage and direct damage, plus control (at least during the periods when the boss’ break bar is actually available). I’m not sure I see the need to do anything more, especially if that something more is a hard long-range taunt.

If the perceived problem is chaotic combat/lack of structure, I’d say the OP has not spent a lot of time playing harder instanced content with people who really know what they’re doing. If you play with such people, the fights are as tightly choreographed as those in a (good) Hong Kong martial arts film. Once you realize the potential, the problem devolves to:

1. Is the harder instanced content hard enough to require that level of structure?
2. Should less hard content require that level of structure?

My answers:

1. Certainly, there is more leeway in at least some raid encounters than the top ~5% of raiders might prefer. However, accessibility is an issue, so I don’t expect too much deviation from the current course.
2. Open world content, while it can be made harder, is aimed at a less-skilled demographic than we see in top-tier raid guilds, or the better players in sPvP or WvW. Requiring more structure than already exists in open-world PvE is a recipe for failure.

At this point I don’t think it would change anything. Trinity works in trinity games from a balance perspective because classes are locked in their role. It’s just not realistic to expect they would redo the whole combat system and all of the older content to account for aggro mechanics.

Excelsior…

…and man, Vayne, you managed to give a short answer regarding the whole thread that is also plausible yet again. Claps

Coming from FF14, I don’t like any sort of Trinity because it creates a demand on certain roles which has to be filled and also devalues other roles. I think that is a horrible thing.

I go with the FF14 example: I was a Blackmage and I loved that job. But I had to wait for duties and groups literally forever, up to 140 minutes. The tanks however can be the biggest kitten s, due to instant queues and simply a high demand they were taken everywhere. It often hurts to see people having fun but you play a job that is in your blood but there is no demand for it.

You can replace “tank” with every profession in this game. I really much enjoy Thief/Daredevil, but who would need me or my profession here in PvE? Right now: Nobody really. If these sparse spots would be replaced with Healers and Tanks (or, you name it, controllers and supporters), I would never get in any group content.

I like how it is right now, groups consist of a big mishmash of people, you see all races and professions slapping their abilities of all kind, magic, pets/summons, blades, arrows, at one foe. There is no real “kitten it, you do no DPS” or “Tank, use skill X or we kick you” sort of thing. This “chaotic”, deathmatch-like feel of “care for yourself” is probably the reason why this game has not beome stall and mind-numbing. Yet, I get a bunch of boons, so someone around me is supporting me without being told so or without queueing this way.

Forcing Trinity – even if you just add small doses of it into the GW(2) formula – would also take the game’s fun away.

Immersion-wise, well,… Standing in front, getting happily slapped by 8 meter tall creatures while healers are waving their hands while healing and DPS that just move a bit to left and right when said creature does an attack looks more like slapstick comedy than a video game. If you check the keystrokes of an endgame FF14 dungeon and a regular boss in the open GW2 world, you will see how great GW2s combat is – it’s a game, not a Simon game from the 80s to remember mechanics and else just blame tank/healer as DPS, blame DPS/healer as tank, blame healer as Tank/DPS etc..

In my opinion, GW2’s Dodge mechanic is the best thing to hit combat in MMOs thus far.

Having said that, from an overall (PvE and WvW) perspective and in my opinion, the rest of the combat system doesn’t feel satisfying. Overall damage numbers felt too high at release, but after all the power-creep, the game-play is a frustrating disappointment.

Combat feels panicky and random. Too often, huge spikes mean a mashing of self-heals way too early in the battle. From then on it’s a case of sustain (self-blasting waters, stealth-resets), which some classes are capable of and others are not.

That’s my experience of combat in GW2.

i think everything is pretty good right now. There are a few tweaks I would like to see. But I think gw2 is about the best I have ever seen it. We don’t need any giant balance changes, continue with the gradual balances in pve (it is getting quite good), and continue to focus on putting out more content.

Svarty.8019:

In my opinion, GW2’s Dodge mechanic is the best thing to hit combat in MMOs thus far.

Having said that, from an overall (PvE and WvW) perspective and in my opinion, the rest of the combat system doesn’t feel satisfying. Overall damage numbers felt too high at release, but after all the power-creep, the game-play is a frustrating disappointment.

Combat feels panicky and random. Too often, huge spikes mean a mashing of self-heals way too early in the battle. From then on it’s a case of sustain (self-blasting waters, stealth-resets), which some classes are capable of and others are not.

That’s my experience of combat in GW2.

Are you sure this isn’t a byproduct of the “all damage, all the time” model that is strongly pushed for PvE content? If you build for nothing but damage, and take only damage increasing utility skills, it’s maybe not such a surprise that damage is hard to deal with, and only some classes have the luck to deal with it?

Meanwhile, occasionally in my guild people follow the advice to use a “WvW” meta build, and suddenly … they find they are able to do things that were formerly impossible, because those builds don’t just focus on damage, they also include damage avoidance, self-healing, and damage reduction gear, traits, and skills.

Unfortunately, I don’t agree. It’s a matter of design and what’s being done with it, not the presence or absence of tanks.

Tanking makes for particularly boring / same-feeling fights. Maybe sometimes the dps have to dodge a little more, or they multiple tanks in raids have to juggle aggro, etc, but having been a ranged-dps in WoW, my fights looked almost exactly the same. It was stale. Static. Pressing the same four attacks as they popped up in my rotation, almost never threatened or taking damage unless the tank flopped, the healer flopped, or the mechanics overwhelmed the fight. My contribution overall was pretty meaningless.

Where ANet seems to be stumbling is designing for this game. World bosses and champs routinely deny the Control role and punish anyone they become the sole focus on in melee. Yes, there’s a breakbar, but it reduces control to “which class stuns the best,” because the CC-dots don’t do enough to break Defiance before the bar disappears in clutch situations. Bosses should be taking some effects and shunting the rest to Defiance. Healers should be focused on aiding groups because of cleaves, not power-healing some poor sod who drew boss attention because he needs a bit of extra Nomad gear to survive.

Monolithic bosses just don’t work properly when there is no tank. Even in trinity MMOs, bosses will often summon adds that have to be managed by a(n off) tank. In GW2, that sort of strategy can easily become part of a Control role, and DPS can divert quickly to burn it down. It’s actually a smooth integration of roles that requires more versatility than a trinity-oriented MMO. But, we still primarily over-damaging monoliths that can’t be controlled. Cripple and Weakness become the fodder for the occasional trait proc and that’s about it.

JTGuevara.9018:

Second, stuns, interrupts, pulls, etc tend to be have a single target, so more enemies get away from you and attack your allies. The real crowd-control is taunt, although it’s limited. Taunts have the double effect of not only disabling your enemies but more importantly attracting them towards you and away from your allies.

I simply can’t agree with this.

You are talking about CC as if it were done from a single, static point, and as if the CC user doesn’t have a brain inside his/her skull. In this game, positioning is essential, and a good CC user knows that.

When you play CC, you don’t just push or launch a foe whenever the skill come out of CD, without looking around, and without looking at what the people around you are trying to accomplish. You must know when to interrupt, and where to move the enemy.

Usually playing good CC means to keep the mobs thogheter and helpless inside the damage areas the rest of your team create. Launching mobs against walls, interrupting movement skills, going outside the fight zone to catch stranded mobs, pulling or pushing ranged enemies into the melee zone… all of these are part of good CC use. You have to move around, position yourself correctly, and you have to think about your teammates all the time.

On some few encounters, you need to clear. You use fear or pushes to keep an area free of mobs. Maybe you are helping someone to revive an ally, or letting them complete some “f” action stuff, or simply saving them from important damage. Sometimes you clear the enemy form getting something from adds. This requires positioning too, and knowing when, how and why are you using CC.

And then there are the breakbars. Which are te easier ones, really, because you don’t need to think so much about them, or position yourself so precisely. Here the more relevant thing is the timing, knowing when not to use the CCs, and when to put it all…

Playing CC is hard, rewarding, and FUN AS HELL.

My point is you can’t reduce CC to just control a specific target in only a single way. You cant pretend “taunt” rules everything just because during a few seconds, it mimics the extremely simple aggro mechanics from other games.

Really, that equals to not understand some of the best things the game has to offer, or worst, equals to despise it. Please don’t.

Respect, CC players.

and also forcing a tank in gw2’s combat style like a traditional tank with toughness etc would mean less class diversity in comps.

SlippyCheeze.5483:

Svarty.8019:

In my opinion, GW2’s Dodge mechanic is the best thing to hit combat in MMOs thus far.

Having said that, from an overall (PvE and WvW) perspective and in my opinion, the rest of the combat system doesn’t feel satisfying. Overall damage numbers felt too high at release, but after all the power-creep, the game-play is a frustrating disappointment.

Combat feels panicky and random. Too often, huge spikes mean a mashing of self-heals way too early in the battle. From then on it’s a case of sustain (self-blasting waters, stealth-resets), which some classes are capable of and others are not.

That’s my experience of combat in GW2.

Are you sure this isn’t a byproduct of the “all damage, all the time” model that is strongly pushed for PvE content? If you build for nothing but damage, and take only damage increasing utility skills, it’s maybe not such a surprise that damage is hard to deal with, and only some classes have the luck to deal with it?

Meanwhile, occasionally in my guild people follow the advice to use a “WvW” meta build, and suddenly … they find they are able to do things that were formerly impossible, because those builds don’t just focus on damage, they also include damage avoidance, self-healing, and damage reduction gear, traits, and skills.

Yes and no …

If I walk near a smokescale with my ele and do nothing the assault skill will be fatal

If I do the same with my guardian it will barely leave a scratch

On the other hand there were things I’ve done on the ele that was fairly easy but it was a struggle on the guardian because the game was throwing a horde of mobs at you.

Sometimes it looks a lot more like the devs do not understand how the mobs scale in their own game. One of the WM necromancer’s skill that normally does ignorable damage can one shot you when it is a lv83 veteran.

Khisanth.2948:

SlippyCheeze.5483:

Svarty.8019:

In my opinion, GW2’s Dodge mechanic is the best thing to hit combat in MMOs thus far.

Having said that, from an overall (PvE and WvW) perspective and in my opinion, the rest of the combat system doesn’t feel satisfying. Overall damage numbers felt too high at release, but after all the power-creep, the game-play is a frustrating disappointment.

Combat feels panicky and random. Too often, huge spikes mean a mashing of self-heals way too early in the battle. From then on it’s a case of sustain (self-blasting waters, stealth-resets), which some classes are capable of and others are not.

That’s my experience of combat in GW2.

Are you sure this isn’t a byproduct of the “all damage, all the time” model that is strongly pushed for PvE content? If you build for nothing but damage, and take only damage increasing utility skills, it’s maybe not such a surprise that damage is hard to deal with, and only some classes have the luck to deal with it?

Meanwhile, occasionally in my guild people follow the advice to use a “WvW” meta build, and suddenly … they find they are able to do things that were formerly impossible, because those builds don’t just focus on damage, they also include damage avoidance, self-healing, and damage reduction gear, traits, and skills.

Yes and no …

If I walk near a smokescale with my ele and do nothing the assault skill will be fatal

If I do the same with my guardian it will barely leave a scratch

On the other hand there were things I’ve done on the ele that was fairly easy but it was a struggle on the guardian because the game was throwing a horde of mobs at you.

Sometimes it looks a lot more like the devs do not understand how the mobs scale in their own game. One of the WM necromancer’s skill that normally does ignorable damage can one shot you when it is a lv83 veteran.

interesting my guard has 12k hp f i leave him there standing sstill near a smokescale he will get me to 30% at the very least how yours survive with a barely a scrach is beyond me and how doe ele have an advantage against packs of mobs and dh doesn’t?

WM necro?

The trinity is fine. But I don’t think you make a compelling case for why we need it here in GW2. Why is controlling enemies by forcing them to attack you so critical? GW2 raids have proven that this can be handled in other ways. Meanwhile, I see no reason the rest of the game and the entire combat system should be redesigned to accommodate the trinity.

Simply making the vague observation that combat is “chaotic” is not a reason to make this change. Why should we do it?

Khisanth.2948:

Yes and no …

If I walk near a smokescale with my ele and do nothing the assault skill will be fatal

If I do the same with my guardian it will barely leave a scratch

On the other hand there were things I’ve done on the ele that was fairly easy but it was a struggle on the guardian because the game was throwing a horde of mobs at you.

Sometimes it looks a lot more like the devs do not understand how the mobs scale in their own game. One of the WM necromancer’s skill that normally does ignorable damage can one shot you when it is a lv83 veteran.

Perhaps. But it seems to me that without the trinity the system is set up with flexibility in mind. There is no reason the elementalist must be squishy. They do have the lowest health and armor, but you can use stats, traits, and utilities to mitigate these weaknesses. It’s the same for any class. I don’t have extensive experience with all of them, but so far everything I’ve tried has the option of breaking the mold and mitigating their weaknesses. That’s something that trinity games with their rigidly defined class roles don’t offer.

The meta generally does not encourage this, so it may appear that the game has poor balance. But it strikes me that this is a result of players attempting to use a build that assumes some degree of support from other players when they are playing the game solo. Not that you can’t use a glass build for solo play, but if you consider ele too squishy you should probably explore your options a bit more.

AliamRationem.5172:

Simply making the vague observation that combat is “chaotic” is not a reason to make this change. Why should we do it?

Taking a stab at the source of the phenomenon, I’m thinking most people who ask for “less chaotic” combat come from those trinity games as:

• tanks who feel the need to control the battlefield (and be a fantastic diva); a loose add drives them nuts
• healers who hate getting hit or doing damage at all, ever
• dps not used to getting hit and want a tank to front for them

I’ve had friends that mention all of the above as why they don’t take so well to GW2. I generally try to be self-sufficient in MMOs, since I solo a lot, so the breakaway from trinity has been a huge boon for my play experience in GW2.

“Tank” in GW2 is whoever equips toughness so any profession can draw aggro that way. There are no true hate management skills that can “buy” or “sell” aggro. Even taunt is just a condition that other games might call berserk or a control effect.

Groups are free to bring one or more tanks, or ask everyone to wear toughness gear. That does not happen often in PvE because the penalty for toughness is decreased dps from the stat trade. Arenanet likes to reward players for running glassy builds. However, a tank can be used to position a boss so toughness provides a hate management build.

Some professions can tank better than others due to skill differences but all can wear toughness so drawing aggro is only part of the equation.

Any full-time tank in any game mode requires dedicated healing because damage taken will rocket when being focused by a boss. That is something else that players sometimes struggle with. Two players (maybe, one tank and two half-time healers) cost a lot of group dps. In PvP, this kind of setup is easy for opponents to figure out and counter, too.

I hurt my head on this topic coming from a trinity game and made my peace with it.

AliamRationem.5172:

The trinity is fine. But I don’t think you make a compelling case for why we need it here in GW2. Why is controlling enemies by forcing them to attack you so critical? GW2 raids have proven that this can be handled in other ways. Meanwhile, I see no reason the rest of the game and the entire combat system should be redesigned to accommodate the trinity.

Simply making the vague observation that combat is “chaotic” is not a reason to make this change. Why should we do it?

It’s not a vague observation, it is a fact. Gw2 is a zergfest. Combat is choatic where ever you go: pve, pvp, wvw. This is due to how combat is structured and balanced in this game. It’s structured around the philosophy of damage, control, support. In a system like this, only damage truly matters. Control and support really only exist to supplement damage. They don’t have much strategic use.

I admit, though, in WvW and PvP there is more counterplay involved against humans than AI. I’d say PvE needs it more.

JTGuevara.9018:

AliamRationem.5172:

The trinity is fine. But I don’t think you make a compelling case for why we need it here in GW2. Why is controlling enemies by forcing them to attack you so critical? GW2 raids have proven that this can be handled in other ways. Meanwhile, I see no reason the rest of the game and the entire combat system should be redesigned to accommodate the trinity.

Simply making the vague observation that combat is “chaotic” is not a reason to make this change. Why should we do it?

It’s not a vague observation, it is a fact. Gw2 is a zergfest. Combat is choatic where ever you go: pve, pvp, wvw. This is due to how combat is structured and designed in this game. It’s structured around the philosophy of damage, control, support. In a system like this, only damage truly matters. Control and support really only exist to supplement damage. They don’t have much strategic use.

This is, in truth, no different to how WoW combat works, though. Sure, you have a tank or two doing their little thing, trading off every now and then, and you have healers who focus on the tanks, and any incidental damage…

…but anything challenging spins up a pile of mechanics that essentially mean DPS are dealing with something akin to the zerg: effects that can’t be tanked, things that focus them, etc.

So, really, it doesn’t actually change that much. (and I say this as a heroic ^w mythic raider.)

Well IMHO we do not need a tank…

The Guild Wars 2 soft trinity giving 1 or 2 roles at any time from:

• DPS/DOT (power/precision/condidmg/ferocity/expertise)
• Support/Heal (healing/boon duaration)
• Bunker or Control (vitality/toughness(?) )

seems adequate to fullfill most roles…
(note control doesn’t mean CC, mearly placement of the enemy)

As opposed to the hard trinity limited to mostly 1 role from

• DPS
• HEAL
• TANK

Most guild wars 2 builds are single role or dual role classes:

• Pure DPS (thief/ele/guardian)
• DPS/heal (Zealot ranger/ zealot ele
• DPS/support (hammer guard, herald)
• Pure DOT (ranger/mesmer/necro/engineer)
• DOT/support (condidruid)
• Pure Heal ( Magi druid/ Magi ele(/rev))
• support (mesmer, warrior PS builds, guardians)
• support heal Minstrel Ele/Magi Ele
• support bunker ChronoTanks, Minstrelmesmer

for example…

Most bunkers could stay up forever provided the HEALER can heal them… this limits druids with the line attack, but favors ele to some degree with splash heals..
Most dual builds tend to have some DPS loss in order to up the dmg considerably of all group members…

Old trinity had a couple of ppl just standing mashing buttons 1 person tanking all the hits and 1 or 2 ppl healing and buffing the tank

At least you find some encounters with random fixed targets, or static bosses that need kiting for mechanics or both a kiter and a tank…. breaking the neeed for Tanks, or missions where you fight artition and you only focus heals while forgoing a tank…
Providing more depth then just the old trinity which was nice 10-15 yrs ago when it was introduced and it was new….

AliamRationem.5172:

Khisanth.2948:

Yes and no …

If I walk near a smokescale with my ele and do nothing the assault skill will be fatal

If I do the same with my guardian it will barely leave a scratch

On the other hand there were things I’ve done on the ele that was fairly easy but it was a struggle on the guardian because the game was throwing a horde of mobs at you.

Sometimes it looks a lot more like the devs do not understand how the mobs scale in their own game. One of the WM necromancer’s skill that normally does ignorable damage can one shot you when it is a lv83 veteran.

Perhaps. But it seems to me that without the trinity the system is set up with flexibility in mind. There is no reason the elementalist must be squishy. They do have the lowest health and armor, but you can use stats, traits, and utilities to mitigate these weaknesses. It’s the same for any class. I don’t have extensive experience with all of them, but so far everything I’ve tried has the option of breaking the mold and mitigating their weaknesses. That’s something that trinity games with their rigidly defined class roles don’t offer.

The meta generally does not encourage this, so it may appear that the game has poor balance. But it strikes me that this is a result of players attempting to use a build that assumes some degree of support from other players when they are playing the game solo. Not that you can’t use a glass build for solo play, but if you consider ele too squishy you should probably explore your options a bit more.

You’ve missed the point there. That was simply to illustrate the differences between the two character’s build.

The point is that going further in either direction of more defensive or offensive is always an improvement.

zealex.9410:

kdaddy.5431:

This game was suppose to be a play it your way.

HOT came out and pushed people into the small trinity we headed into too.

A small % of the people who were playing this game liked it. Someone posted GW2 Quarterly sales and its lower the base GW2 at year 3. HOT has been out for a year or so and it catered to everyone who doesnt play GW2.

It messed up PvP, WvW and a huge group did not like the meta maps which was 3/4 maps for HOT.

When you increased the speed of game play probably around 2-3 times. Destroy build diversity, cant deliver on promises given before HOT came out.

You destroy a trust you have with your player base.

Lets be honest, GW2 was casual friendly with WvW, PvP, Dungeons suppose to be the end game game play. They tried to make raids that content for hardcore players.

They probably should head in the direction you are suggesting but a problem is GW2 player base was not into the trinity. Heck GW1 is about playing X class then picking up another class to fill a different role. For instance i played monk/necro.

I like how you took the small opportunity to poor out all that salt xD and no other than a few bosses in raids there is no trinity in anyother part of the game that would make it suggest that we are heading there.

Really?

So in PvP ele plays what? Heal bot shouts, before HOT you could play a dps fresh air ele. You could play a more defensive staff build and then there was a the d/d ele which was a jack of all trades.

In PvP for warrior its not condi or pure damage. Before warriors could run banners or physical skills. For instance the best 1 vs 1 warrior build had 2-3 physical skills and 1 1-2 signet and endure the pain. A support build used shouts and a tank build used the stances.

ETC ETC ETC, these 2 classes alone used different traits. FA ele was air-water-arcane, staff was earth-water-arcane and d/d was fire/water/arcane. Literally all 5 spec lines could be used in ANY part of the game effectively.

Warrior same thing, these changes are the same with WvW. Basic choices that make a huge difference for group fighting or a roaming group.

HOT is nothing like this. Lets get something straight, the rest of the game is GW2 which was for its main consumer loved the game. Simply wanted more stuff to do.

You refer to a small part of the game, yeah just the expansion called HOT.

HOT literally ruined PvP and WvW. Its all those 2 forums could talk about when HOT came out.

It literally went 180 from the player base that liked GW2. You have players saying HOT is for players who wanted more serious content to play is a joke. As someone with near 29k AP, made it to Legendary seasons 1-3, platinum the past season (right off the 250), on T5 of all my WvW AP that are left and as finished the fractals and completed W1 of raids. Its not more challenging, it literally turned into a WoW clone.

I give Anet credit for raids because they are fun but they should of done it in line with the olds specs. Instead of making the new specs super OP. I love VB easily my favorite map but just as easily DS and AB are my least favorite maps in the game.

kdaddy.5431:

zealex.9410:

kdaddy.5431:

This game was suppose to be a play it your way.

HOT came out and pushed people into the small trinity we headed into too.

A small % of the people who were playing this game liked it. Someone posted GW2 Quarterly sales and its lower the base GW2 at year 3. HOT has been out for a year or so and it catered to everyone who doesnt play GW2.

It messed up PvP, WvW and a huge group did not like the meta maps which was 3/4 maps for HOT.

When you increased the speed of game play probably around 2-3 times. Destroy build diversity, cant deliver on promises given before HOT came out.

You destroy a trust you have with your player base.

Lets be honest, GW2 was casual friendly with WvW, PvP, Dungeons suppose to be the end game game play. They tried to make raids that content for hardcore players.

They probably should head in the direction you are suggesting but a problem is GW2 player base was not into the trinity. Heck GW1 is about playing X class then picking up another class to fill a different role. For instance i played monk/necro.

I like how you took the small opportunity to poor out all that salt xD and no other than a few bosses in raids there is no trinity in anyother part of the game that would make it suggest that we are heading there.

Really?

So in PvP ele plays what? Heal bot shouts, before HOT you could play a dps fresh air ele. You could play a more defensive staff build and then there was a the d/d ele which was a jack of all trades.

In PvP for warrior its not condi or pure damage. Before warriors could run banners or physical skills. For instance the best 1 vs 1 warrior build had 2-3 physical skills and 1 1-2 signet and endure the pain. A support build used shouts and a tank build used the stances.

ETC ETC ETC, these 2 classes alone used different traits. FA ele was air-water-arcane, staff was earth-water-arcane and d/d was fire/water/arcane. Literally all 5 spec lines could be used in ANY part of the game effectively.

Warrior same thing, these changes are the same with WvW. Basic choices that make a huge difference for group fighting or a roaming group.

HOT is nothing like this. Lets get something straight, the rest of the game is GW2 which was for its main consumer loved the game. Simply wanted more stuff to do.

You refer to a small part of the game, yeah just the expansion called HOT.

HOT literally ruined PvP and WvW. Its all those 2 forums could talk about when HOT came out.

It literally went 180 from the player base that liked GW2. You have players saying HOT is for players who wanted more serious content to play is a joke. As someone with near 29k AP, made it to Legendary seasons 1-3, platinum the past season (right off the 250), on T5 of all my WvW AP that are left and as finished the fractals and completed W1 of raids. Its not more challenging, it literally turned into a WoW clone.

I give Anet credit for raids because they are fun but they should of done it in line with the olds specs. Instead of making the new specs super OP. I love VB easily my favorite map but just as easily DS and AB are my least favorite maps in the game.

Thank you.

Elite specs at their power level and how they function I think very well may be the single biggest disappointment this game’s faced.

kdaddy.5431:

This game was suppose to be a play it your way.

HOT came out and pushed people into the small trinity we headed into too.

A small % of the people who were playing this game liked it. Someone posted GW2 Quarterly sales and its lower the base GW2 at year 3. HOT has been out for a year or so and it catered to everyone who doesnt play GW2.

It messed up PvP, WvW and a huge group did not like the meta maps which was 3/4 maps for HOT.

When you increased the speed of game play probably around 2-3 times. Destroy build diversity, cant deliver on promises given before HOT came out.

You destroy a trust you have with your player base.

Lets be honest, GW2 was casual friendly with WvW, PvP, Dungeons suppose to be the end game game play. They tried to make raids that content for hardcore players.

They probably should head in the direction you are suggesting but a problem is GW2 player base was not into the trinity. Heck GW1 is about playing X class then picking up another class to fill a different role. For instance i played monk/necro.

HoT was a double-edged sword.

I agree, HoT decimated PvP and WvW with powercreep and elite specs. However, support builds became more viable across all game modes. PvE content also became a bit more challenging across the board. These are good things. However, they also introduced raids, which is the WORST thing you can do to a game like this, IMO. “PvE endgame” will never work. It’s an oxymoron. As soon as metas are found, content becomes farmable and eventually people will stop doing it. Raids aren’t challenging, they’re punishing. Punishment is not challenge. I wish people would know the difference.

Also, I think what could’ve been done is introduce trinity mechanics through your personal story, rather than sticking them in a raid.

Ah, an Extra Credits fan, I see.

I would argue that for the demographic at which they were aimed, raids are challenging but not punishing. However, for some players outside that demographic, they will seem punishing. However, this is because in an age where many gamers have limited time to play, engaging with difficult mechanics, failing, and having to learn from those failures may be more time and effort than they are willing to invest. It’s unfortunate for developers — and some gamers — that one-size-fits-all content really doesn’t work for everyone. Content that is too much for some is either just right, or if forum warriors are to be believed, not enough for others.

The moral of that story is that all content does not have to be for everyone, despite what some posters seem to believe. Oh, and raids are a small fraction of the new content offered. I suspect, but can’t prove, that L. Armor is the sticking point for a lot of the raid-haters.

It’s boring to play tank, and even worse to be forced to play tank to join a Fractal or world boss.

All games that implement tanks or support, has the issue “We need a healer”, “We need a tank”, problem. This results in some people never being able to leave their role.

GW2 was build with this in mind, the developers wanted people to play their way, and the game catering to pure damage is better, than forcing a bunch of people into a role they don’t want to play.

The only exception for this is raids, which do require a sort of trinity. I’m not too against this, as these type of games are usually organized by friends or guild members.

Lorenz.8905:

It’s boring to play tank, and even worse to be forced to play tank to join a Fractal or world boss.

All games that implement tanks or support, has the issue “We need a healer”, “We need a tank”, problem. This results in some people never being able to leave their role.

GW2 was build with this in mind, the developers wanted people to play their way, and the game catering to pure damage is better, than forcing a bunch of people into a role they don’t want to play.

The only exception for this is raids, which do require a sort of trinity. I’m not too against this, as these type of games are usually organized by friends or guild members.

To be fair, while it may be boring for a person to play a particular role, that doesn’t mean it’s boring for all.

Yes, the game was designed to have an offensive style gameplay across all professions, and lacked decent healing and tanking roles by design, but that route also led to… “The berserker meta is not just going to cut it.”. “The berserker meta has been great fun, but it’s not super healthy for the game and we are kind of pleased to take steps towards a greater variety of builds”. “Berserk meta is going away.”….

…Obviously the devs will never assign a profession to a particular hard role, but what they are in the process of doing is moving away from the offensive only design to bring more defined and quality roles through elites… and that is a huge plus to the game overall. It provides more profession gameplay options and replayabililty in any area of the game, and allows the devs to create more diverse encounters.

For readers to think about…

Jon P quotes about core designs from this site published on 6/10/2011…

http://tap-repeatedly.com/2011/06/exclusive-interview-arenanets-jon-peters-and-jonathan-sharp/

“Jon P: When we actually made the decision to not have healers, it wasn’t my job to talk to others about it directly, so I’m unsure how heavily other people were consulted.  I know some were skeptical and were worried. A lot of people like to play healers and liked to play monks in Guild Wars 1. That being said, it’s not a secret around the office that I do not like to play healers, so I wasn’t too sad to see them go!”

“Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose. You see a lot of sports that are defensive, like American and European football, and you see that defence wins all the time and that defence is often the best offence. We’ve developed a system where, hopefully, offence is the best defence. That you don’t want to say “what are they doing, how can I counter them?” instead you want to say “I’m doing something and I’m doing it well enough that they have to counter me.” I think that’s a much more interesting approach, as it’s then not about reacting but becomes that the best players are trying to make others react to what they are doing, which creates a more dynamic environment.”

The new direction introduced with HoT….

Irenio at twitchcon. Watch the first couple minutes.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K2ZHhJQn0B8

Playing tank in a trinity game was not boring because there were many hate management skills and the tank was vulnerable when healers and dps botched their own hate, buff, debuff, heal, and dps management.

Tank in GW2 is pretty simple and boring in comparison.

Edit:
In trinity-type games, hate/aggro is managed, in part, by casting heals, taking/avoiding damage, and dealing damage so tanks would have skills to (a) buy hate directly from the mob, (b) heal themselves and others players , or © avoid taking damage, which may reduce total aggression. This meant that the highest total damage, plus self heals, plus outgoing heals, minus damage taken would claim the most hate in a group. That sounds like an Elementalist in GW2. A thief doing high spike damage and following with evades might get chased all over the place. A Mesmer might be able to sacrifice clones for short-term immunity but, without taking damage, would soon be downed, if someone else does not claim aggro. A Necromancer going through lots of health and life force, once attacked, might be left alone for a while. Whatever system Arenanet uses, the toughness stat dominates other factors in the calculation ensuring that all professions can at least try to tank.

It’s preference. I do believe according to many game publishers, the vast majority of players prefer the damage roles. I recall a video interview with MO and CJ before GW2 launched about how the game was specifically designed to feature no dependencies/classes/trinity on the basis it often acted as a gate to have fun/play the content because a majority of players are looking to find groupings with a dependency on what are only a small minority.

And aggro management exists in GW2, and is best-done by tanks and DPS working together to utilize how the aggro formula works, which combines a mix of proximity + toughness + outgoing damage/recent damage + degree of “fixation” which is mob-dependent. Actually, stacking in it of itself defeats most of the purpose of aggro maintenance in GW2, and again, the emergence of the berserker gear meta and so on are a result of un-maintained encounter design + staleness and power creep; early on, before players utilized stacking, dedicated tanks were absolutely a thing in dungeons. And the power creep of traits/stats and in particular elites has allowed even the squishiest of builds a lot of room for error to avoid death (Daredevil can spec to being almost permanently in evade frames, for example). This is what has kitten ed PvP and WvW so heavily, too.

Toughness definitely dominates aggro, but it was also originally intended to. The thing is, high-toughness builds didn’t have a ton of damage to bring to maintain that aggro as well, since conditions, which can spec heavily into toughness without issue, were not a competitive source of DPS, and Soldier’s or a dedicated tank stat were the only alternatives.

As a short reference, GW2s action combat has nothing to do with it not having a trinity. Even Blade and Soul which’s combat is also action-based has some form of dependency with Blade Master and KungkittenMasters as tanks – as in skills in their talent trees that could manipulate the aggro generating % to some degree -, just without a real healer (Summoner had some support techs, I think).

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/132607/rethinking_the_trinity_of_mmo_.php?page=3

Trinity equals 3 broad roles. Non trinity equals more than 3 roles. Why on earth would somebody pine for simplicity, there’s games out there that give that already.

I can see them going full on trinity but it would be a bad idea.

They would design Content built around roles and then you know that quite a few people will be more strict with party forming, plus with the dps meter checks it will not lead the game anywhere good.

But at this time it seems the trinity is the way they are going but only time will tell.

If they went trinity for business reasons I would respect that but I would stop playing the game. Some people would just rather all information and roles be spoonfed to them without need for thought or creativity. Fine. I have played those. I will say that there are other trinity games out there with different genres that I like (scifi/superhero) that I would be more into. One of the selling points of this game for me was that I could build to the specific to the role you want to play with the style of play I liked the most. Its not perfect, but it works. I will even forgive the trinity light aspects of the game to an extent. With my Elementalist I can go tanky, supporty or DPS.. I’m not great at one but I can be respectable with the other two. I have my options when I am playing with friends or by myself. The guild will lay down the law when I choose to play with them. However if it got shoehorned into only DPS or only Support, with no choice, I would be done with this game. Like I said, there would be other genre specific games that already use a straight trinity system that I would rather play if this game went strict trinity.

Tank is the only reason i left other MMOs, i can live with healer, but tank is not something GW2 needed.

Anything but tank, thank you.