Guild Wars 2

I was checking out some topics regarding raiding on Reddit when I came across something unbelievable.

Get a load of this post :

“Everyone, we gotta send Anet a message.

Make sure you post on the official forums and send Anet lots of emails. Tell them that no raid in Guild Wars 2 should ever be puggable.

Real players like us deserve our bragging rights and legendary armor.

Casuals should never be allowed to clear a raid. Say no to PUGs. Lets do this people!!"

WTF, seriously?? Check it out yourselves. This is the topic:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3iy258/guild_wars_2_raiding_has_to_be_hard_duh_why_and/

The raids had better be puggable . To hell with your “bragging rights”.

I don’t mind anybody joining, as long as it corresponds to what I listed in the LFG’s.

I mean, “P1 80’s EXP”

And someone with 200 achivements and level 60 joins and says “im good doe”

Sorry, but there’s nothing at all wrong with someone not wanting newbs with them.

The Tee Why.4807:

I don’t mind anybody joining, as long as it corresponds to what I listed in the LFG’s.

I mean, “P1 80’s EXP”

And someone with 200 achivements and level 60 joins and says “im good doe”

Sorry, but there’s nothing at all wrong with someone not wanting newbs with them.

Its not about not wanting newbs with them. They don’t want groups of casuals clearing raids.

It’s a fundamental problem with the raider mentality.

They represent an absurdly small percentage of the player base, but demand the bulk of development time and content, as well as the means to show off their accomplishments to the “scrubs” and “casuals.”

You should have seen WoW’s forums erupt in cataclysmic rage when “Looking For Raid” was announced.

This sounds like the poster is trolling, you shouldn’t pay attention to him then.
And even if he isn’t trolling he is in a VERY small minority even if you just skim through the comments there so you wouldn’t need to worry, i don’t always agree with Arenanet but making this game hardcore only is probably one of the last things they would do^^

And that is why I rarely do even dungeons, because that is the type of people I have come to expect for that type of content. I am overall a pessimist about these raids in the first place and a comment like that just proves why.
That said I definitely want to be able to assemble a team if I find some people that are actually friendly and try these raid out.

Everyone regardless of being elitist or casual should be able to access any content and find likeminded groups for it, which I am sure will be ANets philosophy on it too. Those elitists will still get to those raids much faster, learn to clear them faster and get the gear faster (probably) and thats all cool… They will still get the “being first” priviledge they can brag about, untill the casuals slowly catch up.

chemiclord.3978:

It’s a fundamental problem with the raider mentality.

They represent an absurdly small percentage of the player base, but demand the bulk of development time and content, as well as the means to show off their accomplishments to the “scrubs” and “casuals.”

You should have seen WoW’s forums erupt in cataclysmic rage when “Looking For Raid” was announced.

It’s not the raider’s mentality its just elitism. I am a former progression guild raider(and have been in the lead position during vanilla, burning crusade, and wotlk in WoW) and I take that offensive and I’m one of the people trying to break down the walls of itemization elitism that’s plagued this game.

I recommend you take a step back before you cross swords with people.

Huh? How does that go to the ‘play like you want’ goal?

I play around 50 hrs/week and am leveling my 7th 80 right now (I have out to #15 planned out by race and profession). About the most time you can do with a FT job and sleep. The hardcores would still call me ‘casual’ though because I play it to have fun not to try and take on world bosses by myself single-handedly.

I dont’t mind about that casual pugging.

But what I mind is that we still miss “hardcore” content for “hardcore” players.
It could be done like in GW2 with an extra hardmode for each dungeon that makes dungeons a lot harder. Maybe also alter some boss mechanics.

Then add a better reward system and titles to it. Also add a mechanic that you can truely fail such a hardcore mode dungeon! Maybe after 3 death you can’t respawn anymore. In gw1 you got kicked out from the dungeon when everyone had a death penalty of 60%. Why not here?
Currently it’s not really possible to fail a dungeon, what makes it even more boring.

So it would be still possible for casuals to do that dungeons for story, and similar but lower reward. And hardcore players would get their challanging content.

What I personally really find boring, that nearly everything is made easier and easier and easier. That is really boring for players that want something more challanging.

Just take a look at Gauntlet Challange with Liadri the Concealing Dark. I spend 3~4 hours trying to kill her when it was released. One year later it was made so much easier. I didn’t fought her for one year, but killed her then after the first try.

I hope the new raids will be true challanges, and won’t be made easier and easier.

So hey

Do people actually take shame in being called ‘casual’ still? I mean… who cares dude.

If you don’t want to pug stuff, get a guild.

Even in dungeons when someone goes “F’n pugs” I always respond “So get friends then so you dont have to pug”

I think it’s funny people still fight over hardcore vs casual. Don’t associate with the other and you’ll be fine.

kids…

IllegalChocolate.6938:

chemiclord.3978:

It’s a fundamental problem with the raider mentality.

They represent an absurdly small percentage of the player base, but demand the bulk of development time and content, as well as the means to show off their accomplishments to the “scrubs” and “casuals.”

You should have seen WoW’s forums erupt in cataclysmic rage when “Looking For Raid” was announced.

It’s not the raider’s mentality its just elitism. I am a former progression guild raider(and have been in the lead position during vanilla, burning crusade, and wotlk in WoW) and I take that offensive and I’m one of the people trying to break down the walls of itemization elitism that’s plagued this game.

I recommend you take a step back before you cross swords with people.

As a former member of a “Top 200” raiding guild during Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King (ironically named “Casual” on the Hyjal server), what I can tell you is that was largely my experience within both within the guild and with other “top” raiding guilds.

They demand new raids within months, and get angry when the development isn’t fast enough and there’s “nothing to do” (raid development is by far the most time consuming and QA intensive content an MMO company will produce). When they aren’t raiding, they’re sitting in the most visible place of the latest expansion hub in their “phat purplez.”

Elitism and raider mentality are pretty exchangeable terms the higher up the totem pole you go. If you find that offensive, I’m sorry, but it’s also true.

BTW, does PUG refer to people not in the guild doing something or people who are just in another guild?

The point of raids is really organized challenging content, not something that is easily puggable. If it is puggable then it isn’t challenging enough, you could try, but understand you will probably fail. The reason people are against it is because, as stated, if they made it puggable then it wouldn’t be considered a challenge and like other features people will complain and it will be nerfed.

So apparently “casuals” are not in guilds and can’t play with their guild mates.

I really don’t get all the negativity or hostility towards f2p players though. The only difference between ‘casuals’ (assuming thats f2p) and ‘hardcore players’ (core game owners) is seriously a one time purchase of like 20€-$25.

sad bear is sad

edit: rofl just realised i posted this in the wrong topic. ignore and move on ^^

“Casuals should never be allowed to clear a raid.” is exactly the mentality that Anet is actively fighting in their design of this game. It is purposefully designed to be as inclusive as possible and for it to be as hard as possible to grief other players. People that think this way will never be happy with this game.

Genuinely hard content that few people can master without practice and dedication? Sure, I’m all for it. Stuff like challenge motes for hard mode Living Story bosses and Fractal Instabilities are a pretty good start. More optional challenges please.

I imagine raids will be like a smaller scale version of something like Tequatl or Triple Trouble, where a PUG of newbies with no idea what they’re doing is doomed to fail, but if people have a general idea of the strategy a pug could organize itself well enough to succeed. Seriously, Tequatl is easy now because most people know what to do, but imagine if you could drop 50 players who have never fought him before on the same map with no experienced leader. That’s what the first month of a new raid will likely be like.

As for the LFG, I would like for it to have a filter like the TP. You have some checkboxes and drop down menus to tag your group, and people searching the tool can use those to filter. One of those can be “All welcome/Experienced players only please/new and inexperienced learning players” for example. And also a “Casual Run/Speed Clear/Full Exploration/Kill all mobs and optional bosses” set of options for dungeon runs. A tagging system might also let you check the groups for something like all the dungeons at once rather than one at a time.

Frankly, we don’t really need it now, since it’s rare to see more than 20-30 groups in the LFG at any given time so it’s easy to look through, but with more new players, raids and fractals it might start to get messy.

NeroBoron.7285:

Just take a look at Gauntlet Challange with Liadri the Concealing Dark. I spend 3~4 hours trying to kill her when it was released. One year later it was made so much easier. I didn’t fought her for one year, but killed her then after the first try.

So? You got to have your ego stroked for a year that you completed it and others didn’t, assuming you did in fact beat it. Who cares if it was lowered in difficulty? Why are people so concerned about whether or not other people can complete content?

NeroBoron.7285:

Just take a look at Gauntlet Challange with Liadri the Concealing Dark. I spend 3~4 hours trying to kill her when it was released. One year later it was made so much easier. I didn’t fought her for one year, but killed her then after the first try.

Unless you’re counting the life steal exploit that was popular the second time, Liadri wasn’t changed. The domes were removed however, which would affect the camera and make it hard to see. Ascended gear was also introduced. It would be even easier now with the recent trait changes.

Magic find gear also still existed during the first release. If you were like me, you originally did it in a full set.

Menadena.7482:

BTW, does PUG refer to people not in the guild doing something or people who are just in another guild?

PUG is an acronym for “Pick-Up Group” It doesn’t necessarily refer to guilds.
It generally refers to random players that have never met each other before making a group together, rather than friends or guildmates.

If you’re in a large guild and are playing with guildmates you’ve never spoken with before, it’s still kind of a PUG technically, even though you probably wouldn’t call it that.

The main defining factor of a PUG is usually less communication and coordination. It almost guarantees a non-optimized party. Whereas a planned group for a raid will tend to be perfectly optimized and organized so that all members complement each other and fill specific roles in the plan, likely while using a voice chat server like teamspeak to follow a leader’s commands.

In comparison, a PUG would be a gaggle of chickens running around, but you can still dictate plans and organize with one, it just takes a little more work.

People that enjoy tough raiding content are concerned that raids that DON’T require their usual levels of preparation will be too easy, which is a legitimate concern, really.

The Tee Why.4807:

Sorry, but there’s nothing at all wrong with someone not wanting newbs with them.

Thing is when raids are “new” aren’t we all “newbies” to them?

I hope the raids aren’t easy enough that the average PUG will be able to do everything; not because I dislike PUGs, but because I dislike easy content. If ANet keeps their promises about not allowing any power creep to make older raids worthless, hopefully they will always require a competent groups of players formed either through high requirements in LFG or a guild group.

Owning a legendary is casual on gw2.

Quote:
“ArenaNet need to realize most people strive to complete the difficult content, but failing can actually be enjoyable, because if you fail to beat a boss for 5 months, and finally beat it, it feels great, and also give you “bragging rights” which might make other players want to do it as well."

Actually this makes sense but gw will be the casual raid where every one is effective., stack at corner find easy ways to make raid efficient etc.
The only difference will be mobs that hit like bosses and insta down players.

I would give an example of a mmo’s that has open world bosses like that….. yet guilds with 40-30 players fail at it really fast.

Arioso.8519:

Menadena.7482:

BTW, does PUG refer to people not in the guild doing something or people who are just in another guild?

PUG is an acronym for “Pick-Up Group” It doesn’t necessarily refer to guilds.
It generally refers to random players that have never met each other before making a group together, rather than friends or guildmates.

Thanks, I always thought that was one of the draws of GW2 actually. That if there was an event you very probably will have help running to it from all over.

It is the main reason why I hate any sort of PVP. I prefer to think of all GW2 players as potential allies, not enemies.

Aeolus.3615:

Funyy if raid will become that really hard, they talk about legendary armor? expecting stats will make them good?

Owning a legendary is casual on gw2.

Love it or hate it, it’s more of a kitten thing. No different than those who want exclusive items to stay exclusive so they can show off how long they been in game or what they’ve done.

Gaining the legendary armor isn’t what makes them good(legendary armor doesn’t give better stats), its what they achieved to get them that makes them good. At least good/have the time to raid.

E: [spoiler] Peen with a E is censored? Seriously? [/spoiler]

If you’re really hardcore you have a dedicated group that you consistently run content with. If you have to use the lfg, then accept the fact that you are likely to get bearbows and necros in full clerics. End of story.

BrooksP.4318:

Aeolus.3615:

(…)
Owning a legendary is casual on gw2.

Love it or hate it, it’s more of a kitten thing. No different than those who want exclusive items to stay exclusive so they can show off how long they been in game or what they’ve done.
(…)]

Edited.
i guess i interpreted text wrongly @ beginning.

After reading through that reddit topic its honestly just 1 guy saying all that Bee Es. The OP is actually defending his point against the guy and clarifying he just wants challenge but casuals are more than welcome to join in on the learning of the figths

Aeolus.3615:

Quote:*
“ArenaNet need to realize most people strive to complete the difficult content, but failing can actually be enjoyable, because if you fail to beat a boss for 5 months, and finally beat it, it feels great, and also give you “bragging rights” which might make other players want to do it as well."*

That sits pretty high on a list of moronic quotes you can expect from a hardcore raider, congratulations. How someone can enjoy doing the same garbage without getting a substantial reward over and over for months is completely beyond me. That would basically remind me of working in a really low browed federal office, doing the same stuff over and over again with it getting send back by your next higher superior because of you attempting to use the same tired arguments all over again until you finally, finally find a formulation that is ok for your boss and he winks you through to the next higher boss.

And this is how it starts XD

You took that post from someone that wasn’t the OP of that reddit thread. In fact the OP defends his post from that statement.

I love the “Elite Raiders”. I’ve never met a nice one.

BrotherBelial.3094:

I love the “Elite Raiders”. I’ve never met a nice one.

Not sure how it is now, but most “Elite Raiders” I use to know where pretty chill. Many don’t actually socialize much outside of their guilds. DnT for example while had some arrogant people, they also did a lot of guides and open brainstorming on unkilled bosses, which I would consider nice, considering the competitive nature of progression raiding.

Some people simply take playing a game to seriously.

If the raids can be completed by a pug in exotics it will be cleared the first day by organized groups in ascended. That’s why people like me do not want the raids to be readily puggable. It has nothing to do with looking down on people who pug (I pretty much exclusively pug), but raids are meant to be challenging. Even if the raids are tuned for organized groups in ascended I am sure pugs will be able to clear them a few months the line, once all the strats are well known and practiced by all.

BrooksP.4318:

BrotherBelial.3094:

I love the “Elite Raiders”. I’ve never met a nice one.

Not sure how it is now, but most “Elite Raiders” I use to know where pretty chill. Many don’t actually socialize much outside of their guilds. DnT for example while had some arrogant people, they also did a lot of guides and open brainstorming on unkilled bosses, which I would consider nice, considering the competitive nature of progression raiding.

Anyone who think’s people should be limited to what content they can’ and can not do is a kitten, and sadly they exist in every game.

BrotherBelial.3094:

BrooksP.4318:

BrotherBelial.3094:

I love the “Elite Raiders”. I’ve never met a nice one.

Not sure how it is now, but most “Elite Raiders” I use to know where pretty chill. Many don’t actually socialize much outside of their guilds. DnT for example while had some arrogant people, they also did a lot of guides and open brainstorming on unkilled bosses, which I would consider nice, considering the competitive nature of progression raiding.

Anyone who think’s people should be limited to what content they can’ and can not do is a kitten, and sadly they exist in every game.

any content you cannot do is an inherent limitation and so that particular line of thinking is not incorrect.

That is what I predicted in another topic about the raids. That’s what I’m talking about the second day. Elitists irreparably divide the community. I know what I’m saying – I’m one of them had once been. When I played in WoW. GW2 changed me. I so do not want to see it here, now I’m trying to convey to the community of the danger of division in the 1% elitist and “crowd”.
That is why the legendary armor should be made available not only in the raids. This is the path in the darkness, exactly – in WoW

Deth.4109:

BrotherBelial.3094:

BrooksP.4318:

BrotherBelial.3094:

I love the “Elite Raiders”. I’ve never met a nice one.

Not sure how it is now, but most “Elite Raiders” I use to know where pretty chill. Many don’t actually socialize much outside of their guilds. DnT for example while had some arrogant people, they also did a lot of guides and open brainstorming on unkilled bosses, which I would consider nice, considering the competitive nature of progression raiding.

Anyone who think’s people should be limited to what content they can’ and can not do is a kitten, and sadly they exist in every game.

any content you cannot do is an inherent limitation and so that particular line of thinking is not incorrect.

ok smart kitten , anyone who thinks they have the right to impose limitations on what other people can and can’t not play are kittens.

If the hardcore crowd think that GW2 raids are going to exclude 99% of the playerbase to make a tiny minority happy they are sadly mistaken.

Raids will be very challenging as they should be. They will encourage teamwork and strategizing as well as communication. These are things that players in GW2 already embrace doing with each other.

If a player wants to be able to berate other players, throw up dps meters and have “super hardcore only” content then this sadly isn’t the game for them.

I really don’t see a problem here. The hardcore cannot prevent casuals from raiding; just group with casuals and all is well. Groups in GW2 generally indicate whether they are hardcore or not with dungeons now.

I think that one thing that would be helpful would be to not view raids as solely for the hardcore. WoW has LFR (looking for raid—i.e. pug), normal, and heroic raids. The raids there are viewed as “content” and the design is to include the more casual members of the community so they don’t have to miss the content. It works well there and would here as well.

Very few people are like this, consider them insecure kiddies who have nothing better to do then waste their life away.

Pay them no attention!

BrotherBelial.3094:

Anyone who think’s people should be limited to what content they can’ and can not do is a kitten, and sadly they exist in every game.

It’s not about who should or should not do it, but if content should be developed around a certain group or not. What others have said, is that if raids were balanced around making it possible for a unorganized PUG group to complete then organized groups would be able to clear it 10x faster, rendering it meaningless.

Some are hoping that raids are balanced around being challenging for organized groups. Anyone could try and do it, but would most likely fail. There is already enough content available for casual or unorganized groups, but almost none for organized.

Seems like the devs already have a solution to this in how fractals are set up. “casual” players can do 1-9 fractals and earn relics slowly, “elite” ppl can do 50-100 ones and get faster rewards, so casuals can get the same content + items but itl take longer

if raids work a similar way I dont see how everyone couldnt be happy. elitists will get the rewards in a week, casuals will take 2-3 months to learn the fights and save up enough currency, and if there is a new raid every 3 months elitists will always have something to show off while casuals will always have something to work for.

having stuff locked behind lvl 100 fracts (or the equiv in raids) and not obtainable any other way is a bad idea. Like really really bad, not to mention how bad it is to spend money on content that only 1% of players will get to.

Mayga.7241:

That is what I predicted in another topic about the raids. That’s what I’m talking about the second day. Elitists irreparably divide the community. I know what I’m saying – I’m one of them had once been. When I played in WoW. GW2 changed me. I so do not want to see it here, now I’m trying to convey to the community of the danger of division in the 1% elitist and “crowd”.
That is why the legendary armor should be made available not only in the raids. This is the path in the darkness, exactly – in WoW

There is smaaall little reason why legendary armor must remain locked behind hardest content in the game. It is called Crafting.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

There is smaaall little reason why legendary armor must remain locked behind hardest content in the game. It is called Crafting.

Nothing should belong only to a small fraction of the players in this game. I can go through a raid – this is no problem, I have years of experience in hardmode content.

But why is it necessary? Why this should be tied to the raid content? We have here WoW or GW2? I came to play in GW2. And I want to stay in it – not in clone of WoW.
So legendary armor must be hard-to-get, but only like legendary weapon. Raids must be pure challenge. This is only way to prevent the separation of the community.

Mcrocha.3891:

NeroBoron.7285:

Just take a look at Gauntlet Challange with Liadri the Concealing Dark. I spend 3~4 hours trying to kill her when it was released. One year later it was made so much easier. I didn’t fought her for one year, but killed her then after the first try.

So? You got to have your ego stroked for a year that you completed it and others didn’t, assuming you did in fact beat it. Who cares if it was lowered in difficulty? Why are people so concerned about whether or not other people can complete content?

And actually she wasn’t that much easier in her 2nd coming they just got rid of some of the cheap “death by crappy controls due to dome camera” mechanics.

“Hardcore” player here.. I only call myself that because of my ridiculous amount of time in game and knowledge of it.

I hate the elite ist mentality and thankfully it isn’t too Much of an issue in gw.

Raids should definitely be puggable “casuals” should definitely be allowed to clear raids.

All players should be able to include themselves in all content.
Such a silly argument

meeflak.9714:

“Hardcore” player here.. I only call myself that because of my ridiculous amount of time in game and knowledge of it.

I hate the elite ist mentality and thankfully it isn’t too Much of an issue in gw.

Raids should definitely be puggable “casuals” should definitely be allowed to clear raids.

All players should be able to include themselves in all content.
Such a silly argument

jk

Chiming in again. I hope you they design the raids like Triple Trouble or Teq. Pugs in exotics could expect to kill the boss the easiest way possible but only the organized ascended groups could kill it while also completing all the optional events, being rewarded with mats for the legendary armor this way.

Torolan.5816:

Aeolus.3615:

Quote:*
“ArenaNet need to realize most people strive to complete the difficult content, but failing can actually be enjoyable, because if you fail to beat a boss for 5 months, and finally beat it, it feels great, and also give you “bragging rights” which might make other players want to do it as well."*

That sits pretty high on a list of moronic quotes you can expect from a hardcore raider, congratulations. How someone can enjoy doing the same garbage without getting a substantial reward over and over for months is completely beyond me. That would basically remind me of working in a really low browed federal office, doing the same stuff over and over again with it getting send back by your next higher superior because of you attempting to use the same tired arguments all over again until you finally, finally find a formulation that is ok for your boss and he winks you through to the next higher boss.

Like i said and i will repeat, it makes sense for a raid to be hard, but gw2 will be far from that.
If the raid becomes accessible by everyone Anet will Time gate it 1 per day or something like it, because players are easy farming the raid, look what happened to dungeons.
It needs to be content where players need to get organized to get trough it and actually rewarded for that, and not just content that can be cleared by any 10 man pug.