Guild Wars 2

Mods: Please don’t merge this with a topic about putting hard content into the game or whether people want it or not, this is really a separate issue, that involves a problem with hard content in general, not specifically the hard content being or not being added to the game).

I’ve been thinking a lot about hard content, and I think I know where some of the disconnect is between me and other players. It’s not that I don’t want challenging content, so much as what challenging content has come to mean, and to some degree, why it has come to mean that.

I used to play RPGs back in the day and those games were quite challenging. But they weren’t challenging in the platforming sense and they weren’t challenging in the dodge timing sense, or the DPS check perfect rotation sense. That isn’t what I think of as challenging content, even though it challenges some people.

There used to be mental challenges in games. Things you could actually solve, and puzzle out, and work towards that didn’t require you to be aggressively spamming your keys, and that wouldn’t have mattered if you have a bit of lag. Face it a good percentage of the playerbase does get some kind of lag or latency making certain things in the game harder to do. Not impossible, but it’s certainly more challenging to do liadri with latency/lag than without it.

But that’s one type of challenging content. In my opinion the reason why the other type of challenging content is no longer offered by games is because of wikis and sites like Dulfy. They’re instantly passed for anyone who wants to look at them. The attention span people have has certainly gone down. More games to consume, easier to access means less time spent not only on a single game for many people but a single puzzle in a single game. Early games had puzzles you have to solve. Anyone who knows the evolution of the Tomb Raider series will remember how hard the puzzles were in the beginning and how it’s changed in later games.

I do want some challenging content. But I don’t want them in the form of an arcade game. I want something I can bend my mind against and beat mentally, like RPGs used to have. The closest thing we have in this game is figuring out how to craft Mawdrey or finding coins in Dry Top. But the coins in Drytop thing, there aren’t really clues, it’s just wandering around with your ctrl key down. Not much to figure out.

The problem is, a huge percentage of the population would end up going to the wiki to get the answers to any puzzle and it would take no time at all, and so for most players, the time to complete it would be like nothing and then they’d complain there’s no new content. But that’s the kind of challenging content I’d want to see. Stuff like the guild puzzles or better, even like the Mad King quest with the riddles where we had to figure out where to go. That was more fun for me than Liadri will ever be. I didn’t enjoy the Queen’s Gauntlet. I like different kinds of challenges.

Anyway just some thoughts about why saying I want challenging content isn’t enough. Because the stuff some people think of as challenging content others think of as either not challenging, or a waste of developer time.

Honestly, when I read the posts about wanting more challenge, what I believe is being said under the surface is, “I want content that requires me to stretch myself. It should be content that not everyone can do, and it should provide me with better rewards than those other people get doing ‘easier’ content.” That said, “Stretch myself” is going to mean different things to different people.

Brain puzzles are great, and your point about internet sites which provide the answer is well taken. TSW is designed to provide research challenges. Unfortunately, this far into the game if you search for key concepts, the first few hits on Google are the fan sites showing cheats for that quest.

I agree that Dulfy or other sites do offer an easy way out on this type of content. Honestly, the most brain power I needed in GW2 so far was figuring out how to use the Zephyr skills to get to some of the sites for sun crystals in Sanctum of the Winds. I didn’t use the Dulfy walk throughs on these, but I did see they were there.

It’s an interesting situation with mind puzzles, that’s for sure. I’m one of those people who enjoy them thoroughly, but if there is a greater goal than puzzle completion that is overriding it (and/or I feel like there is no clear way for me to solve the puzzle without looking for answers) then I will turn to guides and such.

I think the hard part of making puzzles is that they really are their own kind of gameplay and a good puzzle requires more than just “something difficult to solve” – it requires giving players the tools to feel like they’re capable of solving the puzzle.

That said, there are great puzzle “templates” that the devs could “steal” from. I have seen examples of them in others games; stuff like the kind where you have one empty space and you have to maneuver around a bunch of objects, until they are all in the right spot. These are the kind of puzzles that aren’t just brainy but are also difficult to execute. One nice thing in that way is that even with a guide, you can’t just get the answer instantly. You have to follow a lot of careful steps.

Like a Rubik’s Cube, for example. Even with a guide, it still takes time.

I still haven’t found all the coins or diving goggles, and I haven’t gone to Dulfy to do so. Because those quests aren’t limited in time, I don’t feel I need to.

Rift, in spite of the many things I didn’t like about the game, had puzzles in some zones. The closest thing I can compare it to in Guild Wars 2 is the underwater organ puzzle, which I really enjoyed, trying to figure out how to get to the treasure by repeating the tune sung by a nearby quaggan.

However the other pipe organ puzzle in Fields of Ruins, I didn’t like because I didn’t see any clues or ways to figure out what to play.

Ehh, is it weird I still play games like the Etrian Odyssey without excessive spoiling of things? Or the first time through the re-release of “Shadowgate” I only had to use a walkthrough due to having trouble locating where they hid an item?

I like to be challenged, and while I don’t necessarily care about whether the tangible reward is worth it, I’d like something to show for the efforts. Which is right about where “challenging content” meets “risk vs reward” and things turn a bit difficult to work with . . .

It’s different for a lot of people in single player games, because they’re not “competing” with each other on any real level.

There’s always a feeling if you get some kind of reward like a unique mini, that other people have it and you don’t, but you know they probably looked it up. It devalues the value of solving stuff…for a lot of people anyway.

It’s like when you could suddenly get the suvivor title in Guild Wars 1 by doing Kilroy Stonekin’s dungeon. You could get it in a weekend with relatively little chance of failure. You could never know when someone was wearing that title, how they got it.

I made it to indomitable survivor without doing it once, just by vanquishing.

Including more puzzles would be an interesting idea, and working around the issue with the spoiling would still be possible as well: The puzzles have to be “dynamic” / randomized. Let’s say, a labyrinth for example – it could be created in a way that certain walls are placed by random, while the trigger would be the player himself (like, when a player has to activate a door to enter, the labyrinth shifts – making it harder for those already inside, so that the “turn left each time” technique wouldn’t work too well either!). And despite the fact that it’s pretty hard to write a guide for this kind of thing, it’ld surely be interesting – especially when combined with other elements like specific creatures to fight for keys.

Of course it’s a lot harder to do this kind of thing for actual riddles – since even if the change in text, it’s still a lot of work to voice all those different versions. A possibility there would be to reference “things” inside the riddle, that reflect something the player had to go trough (wich can, again, be generated randomly) – for example, let’s go back to the labyrinth:

You, as a player, wander trough the labyrinth, and as it’s the nature of labs you probably will run into a lot of inscriptions. Those would hold advices, and numbers (the game would’ve to register what kind of advice you would get).

Your first advice is the number “8”.
The second advice is “The Liar was here – everywhere. That’s not true.”.
The third is “Eternity is not the way. The sum of all things is the solution”
The fourth is “10”
The fifth is “Never trust the rolling ones. Half of it is true.”
The sixth is “2”
The seventh is “You cannot proceed, without a choice. The third time always works”
The 9. is “Focus, or you’ll loose your path. It has many children!”

At the end of your path, you reach a ghost / statue / whatever, that asks you for your answer.

I just came up on the spot with it, so I didn’t check if I’m actually correct, but the solution would be 2. “The Liar was here – everywhere” implies, that one part of every advice has to be a lie. So from now on, you have to choose wich one is true (if you didn’t get this advice, you might have another way of solving it). By the way, the “That’s not true” also implies that the Liar really was here – since whitout that, the first part wouldn’t make any sense. Now, “Eternity is not the way” would drop the 8, and “The sum of all things is the solution” would need you to sum all numbers up. “Never trust the rolling ones” implies that you should drop round numbers. “Half of it is true” implies that you have to use half of your numbers, or half them. “You cannot proceed whitout a choice” implies that you need something higher than 1, while “The third time always works” implies it’s a 3 or a multiple of three. “Focus, or you’ll loose your path” implies that you need a 2, or a very small number (when going back to the ‘choice’) while “It has many children” implies that it’s not a prime number – wich cannot be true in any combination of the above, so only the 2 remains (since the possible end results are 2 or 5, and “Focus” means that the 2 has to be right)

With this kind of dynamic puzzle, it could be kept quuiiite interesting And yeah, I probably made a mistake above, but it’s really a 5 min thing I just came up as an example, to get my point trough

Edit: I could rephrase it: The riddles should be “dynamic logicals” – that’s what I originally tried to say. Logicals that “grow” / change with each advice, and as long as those advices are randomly generated from a larger pool, each player still has to “think” to solve them, even if he understands the ‘hint’ behind the advices!

First of all – you mention challenging content in the form of puzzles, strategies, builds and other “mental challenges” – those things can’t really be considered challenges anymore.

Why?

Because the MMO genre ( and games in general) now have content creators that earn a living ( or at least make a good hobby ) out of solving things for you and posting them online.

Need the new warrior dps build ? Nike from DnT has you covered ( massive props to him).
Need to do the new backpiece scavanger hunt or the new collections? Dulfy has a guide ( massive props to her as well).

I’m not saying this is bad. I’m not saying these people are ruining the game – I thank them for their work and respect the time and dedication they put in. I use their guides and it makes my life easier.

But you asked and there’s your answer – because today you can just look it up online – youtube, sites, you name it – and the answer will be within reach in 2-3 minutes.

So you have to add “reflex challenge” because mental challenge isn’t even a factor anymore.
First person to beat your encounter/puzzle will just youtube it and that’s it. The whole challenge is gone.

Nobody is going to do puzzles or mental challenges anymore.
The generation of gamers has changed too. You grew up on old platformers ( Tomb Riader) and other challenge and puzzle filled games.

Today’s players grew up on COD and other instant action instant gratification games.
It’s about the new, the fast, the pew pew pew. You want to be in the action – all the time. There’s no time to waste thinking about stuff. It’s all about acting now. Action. That’s what defines this gamer generation.

In other threads you’d point out that catering to a minority of the player base is wasted effort on Anet’s part. Well – this sort of challenge in GW2 ( while I would like and enjoy it) would fit nicely into that category.

Work on a puzzle, put it in, and then everyone beats it with youtube on day 1.

Harper.4173:

First of all – you mention challenging content in the form of puzzles, strategies, builds and other “mental challenges” – those things can’t really be considered challenges anymore.

Why?

Because the MMO genre ( and games in general) now have content creators that earn a living ( or at least make a good hobby ) out of solving things for you and posting them online.

Need the new warrior dps build ? Nike from DnT has you covered ( massive props to him).
Need to do the new backpiece scavanger hunt or the new collections? Dulfy has a guide ( massive props to her as well).

I’m not saying this is bad. I’m not saying these people are ruining the game – I thank them for their work and respect the time and dedication they put in. I use their guides and it makes my life easier.

But you asked and there’s your answer – because today you can just look it up online – youtube, sites, you name it – and the answer will be within reach in 2-3 minutes.

So you have to add “reflex challenge” because mental challenge isn’t even a factor anymore.
First person to beat your encounter/puzzle will just youtube it and that’s it. The whole challenge is gone.

Nobody is going to do puzzles or mental challenges anymore.
The generation of gamers has changed too. You grew up on old platformers ( Tomb Riader) and other challenge and puzzle filled games.

Today’s players grew up on COD and other instant action instant gratification games.
It’s about the new, the fast, the pew pew pew. You want to be in the action – all the time. There’s no time to waste thinking about stuff. It’s all about acting now. Action. That’s what defines this gamer generation.

In other threads you’d point out that catering to a minority of the player base is wasted effort on Anet’s part. Well – this sort of challenge in GW2 ( while I would like and enjoy it) would fit nicely into that category.

Work on a puzzle, put it in, and then everyone beats it with youtube on day 1.

I don’t know if nobody is going to do it, but I did admit only a small percentage of the population will not google the answer.

That said, people keep telling me that somehow I’m wrong for not wanting harder content I have less interest in. I think I’m a minority which is why I don’t expect to see this kind of content, as I expect they’re a minority to won’t see as much of the content they want to see.

But if challenging content is made, since it’s being made for the minority anyway, this is the KIND of challenge I’m looking for.

And again, there are ways to make puzzles where you can’t just write or google a solution. It would be interesting to see how that would work if they ever did include something like that in the game.

Maybe all those people who want hard content would be dissatisfied because it wasn’t the type of hard content they had in mind.

Vayne.8563:

I still haven’t found all the coins or diving goggles, and I haven’t gone to Dulfy to do so. Because those quests aren’t limited in time, I don’t feel I need to.

Rift, in spite of the many things I didn’t like about the game, had puzzles in some zones. The closest thing I can compare it to in Guild Wars 2 is the underwater organ puzzle, which I really enjoyed, trying to figure out how to get to the treasure by repeating the tune sung by a nearby quaggan.

However the other pipe organ puzzle in Fields of Ruins, I didn’t like because I didn’t see any clues or ways to figure out what to play.

There are several puzzles ingame, though… however their number does not really improve, thanks to the way they update the game at the moment.
If they would put in these puzzles as new content, people would run to dulfy or complain that it is too hard for them to do it (even though the content is not on a timer anymore like with S1)

For puzzles, i can think of some.

The hardest:
- numerical “jumping puzzle” in bloodtide coast, where you have to match a mathematical cahnging puzzle (urgh, hated that one. still cannot figure it out properly)

Others:
- Place the stones the right way in the sylvari starter area (frog and stone face puzle)
- hidden asura laboratory with the lasers (sylvari area)
- Help the Charr with his machine in the Iron Marches (you even get an exclusive skin there)
- open the chest in the gryphon JP in Timberline falls (okay, it is plattforming)
- open the dwarven ruins

argh, there were more, but i have to look them up.

Maybe puzzle content could have some extra rewards during the first week after release? So, give players something extra, before the internet is full of solutions

There is a method to making puzzles challenging without allowing walkthroughs to take the sting out of it. There’s this one puzzle in Bloodtide Coast where you have to make the numbers on a console readout get to an exact point by tweaking them via randomly generated/placed dialogue options.

I think it’s Professor Portmatt’s Lab . . .

While it’s easy to get a cheat sheet to make it through, it’s also possible to structure a puzzle past this to where there’s no simple “follow the FAQ to win”. I know because there are puzzle games which manage it even now.

I want to see more challenging combat and an immersive world.
The current combat in GW2, for the most part, lacks any mechanic whatsoever.
I would like to see changes made that remind me of my favorite game gameplay-wise:
Monster Hunter. In MH, each monster had different mechanics you had to know to fight it effectively. Most mechanics weren’t even challenging, but they prevented you from simply running up to the monster and start spamming keys. You had to work with the hitboxes and position yourself accordingly. This would greatly improve GW2, if the enemies would have refined hitboxes and mechanics that you can’t simply ignore.
Also, the combat lacks teamplay. There are no roles in the fights.

Hey, you play monster hunter too, huh?

So when you talk about more challenging combat, are we talking “Plessy hipcheck”, “Tigrex with greatsword” or “Fatalis”?

I didn’t like Fatalis, never had someone to play with so that fight was rather hard. But Tigrex with GS is a nice one, although I prefered Katanas. And I really miss Gunlances.
My favorite armor was the Nargacuga one, which let you dodge longer and more often.

Tigrex and Plesioth are the challenges I’m aiming for, Fatalis was more of the grindy type if you were alone. Fatalis would better fit as worldboss.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

I didn’t like Fatalis, never had someone to play with so that fight was rather hard. But Tigrex with GS is a nice one, although I prefered Katanas. And I really miss Gunlances.
My favorite armor was the Nargacuga one, which let you dodge longer and more often.

I’ll semi-translate the question I put out there for those who don’t know:

“Plessy hipcheck” is an attack with an incredibly deceptive hit zone and it is part of the challenge of the fight. Fighting the aforementioned monster in melee is made all the more dangerous due to this move and its hitbox. Coupled with a monster which is incredibly annoying to deal with, well . . .

“Tigrex with greatsword” is talking about a particularly aggressive monster which is one of the first ones to be physically overpowering around mid-game (normal game, that is). The greatsword weapon is primarily more powerful by rooting you and charging an attack, and you can fight something which can pounce forward in an attack, and then almost directly reverse it . . . damaging or knocking down at least once out of the two times. So using this weapon is a matter of timing, skill, and knowing exactly when to let go, or to dodge and wait for another opening. Oh, and you also can’t block with impunity . . .

“Fatalis” is an end-game monster which dishes out one-hit-kills without mercy and can be a serious contender for “high challenge, low reward” most times. You need to beat it roughly three times before you can reap most of the rewards . . . fighting with a specific subset of weapons lest you simply not have time to kill it. There are three types; one is predictable and uninteresting except for the arena itself. One is incredibly difficult to deal with due to releasing high-damage attacks, turning on a defense for a period of health which blocks 90% of incoming damage, and also having the thing with dishing out OHKOs. The third one . . . is much more interesting, as most attacks will OHKO if they land, but they’re telegraphed with enough time to dodge most of the time. It is also perhaps the only one whose rewards lead to a useful set of armor (but by the time you can get it, you won’t really need it).

I’ll add my favorite though:

Nargacuga. See, here is a monster which is tougher than the aforementioned Tigrex in every way, and is much more agile. Normal methods of cheesing the fight don’t work too well for solo players, though groups can cheese it relatively easy. But it’s still incredibly easy to get overconfident and wipe. More interesting is when you have to fight it without having access (or simply denying yourself access) to the cheesy methods. Coupled with giving rewards which create remarkably useful weapons (for general use) . . . good risk, good reward, and good challenge.

I’m really in favor of that Nargacuga fight. It was depressing at first but so much the more rewarding once you got the hang of it. the best thing about it is that the boss was as challenging in a solo setup as it was in a team setup. In GW2, when the devs want to create “challenging” content, they simply add inavoidable OHKO attacks. This makes the boss challenging for groups but impossible for solo plays. Monster Hunter struck the perfect balance in my mind.

I like this type of content too.

The Aetherblade path is my favourite dungeon for exactly this reason. I’m really glad I did it the first time on the day it was released, before everyone knew the answers. In a way it reminded me of playing a Zelda game – instead of walking into a room, killing all the enemies and moving on we would walk in and then look around for hints on what to do – what type of puzzle we were facing and what tools we had to solve it, then figure it out together. And doing that was really fun.

I liked finding all the crystals hidden around the Labyrinthine Cliffs too, for much the same reason. Spotting the crystal was more like the start of the puzzle, that told you where you were trying to get to and then you had to find a way there by looking at the scenery and what options it gave you.

Thing is both of those had guides online to tell you exactly what to do and how to do it and it didn’t affect my enjoyment of them at all because I simply didn’t use them.

I actually think they could provide a good compromise – if you want to figure out the puzzle yourself you can do that. If for whatever reason you’re not interested you can let someone else do it for you.

The one part which I do think the internet has ruined is the option of accepting hints and solutions from your friends without knowing if it was true or a stupid rumour.

This might only apply to my age group, but back in ye olde days before the internet solutions to puzzles in games, cheat codes, secret characters etc. was a popular topic of conversation at school. Whenever someone told you a new one you would of course pretend you already knew it, or knew it was fake (whichever seemed more likely) but as soon as you got home you’d try it, just in case.

These days if someone tells you a ‘secret’ you didn’t know about a game 99% of the time it just means they’ve read the walkthrough.

Before i started Online games i always prefered round-based MMOs. Wizardry 7 for
example had very challenging fights .. but it was round-based and not stressing you
to hit keys like crazy .. it was more strategical .. i’m much better in that than in
button mashing. Sadly something like that is not possible in Online Games.

I do enjoy solving mindgames here and there ,but it’s much harder to create any mindgame to have any replay value, and I think that’s what missing from GW2 right now: replayability. You mentioned the mad king scavanger hunt, it was great at first, but the second time you knew all the answers , it was no challange anymore.
Finding things in the open world same thing, if you find a diving google by yourself, from now on you’ll know it’s there,but if we talk about liadri for example , it will be challangeing the first time, the second time , the third time etc.

For me the greatest mind challange in GW2 wasn’t even in the game in the traditional sense. When guild missions were released our guild was relatively small , and we couldn’t find the guild bounty targets very often,or we didn’t have time to kill them. I had to work out a method to find the target fast, with few people & high efficiency. It was a mindgame I’m proud I solved, so yeah, I kinda know what you mean , but what I’m saying is you can have mind games in the game without actually add one. Figuring out how to counter a boss is a type of mindgame, and it has replay value in the same time, and this is the type of mindgames I expect from an MMO.

New behavior varieties, not replace old with new, but add possibility to occur new, if mob spawn randomly use one of behavior tempaltes.

New spawn spots, not replace old with new, but add possibility to occur that mob/s can spawn sometimes in spot1 or spot2 or spot3 or spot4.

More jp.

I don’t wanna remove old mob behaviors, cuz of fact that people solve their mechanic fast, so if you permanently change sth for more channeling, people will aknowledge it, and it will become easier for those who manage to decipher that, but when you fight with the same mob, know his skills, but he always behave in different way – it is a bit more channeling imo. That will be for sure if sometimes we will see next templates, only constant improvement never stopped, will be true channeling.

I don’t sense that I failed, when I see Event Failed! but I think it is very important to think what can happen if you fail / show it properly.

More JPs, instanced boss content for 1-10 players, hidden beyond those JPs… That would be awesome, getting through a labirynth to challenge some beast with a few friends without any interruptions from a loot-hungry zerg.

Better mob design.
Variation to stats, abilities, attack speed and special combat mechanics will do good.

Mobs that are “Why use other builds or game mechanics, when stand-spam-DPS wins majority of PvE”, is not a proper mob design, nor it’s good for “Play how I want” concept, we have choices, but best is always just DPS.

Could put it this way:
Of PvE, 99% is trash mobs which just die against stand-spam-DPS, while 1% are the boss monsters which have more unique combat mechanics and never die quick.
Or put it this way:
1% of PvE content is where 2/3 of game mechanics are actually used, while DPS is more in equal levels with them.
While 99% of PvE content is where DPS (1/3) is the best build, 2/3 of mechanics are useless in these.

Engaging combat, where use of dodging, active positioning and different effects like conditions, boons, control, healing and boon/condition manipulations can affect the results equally, just isn’t there right now, when we’re given the choice “Why use other builds or game mechanics, when stand-spam-DPS wins majority of PvE”…

I’d love to be able to kill mobs in group events, no matter what build I use, Control, Support or DPS.
Unlike now, where DPS builds slaughter everything in 1-3 seconds, even before mobs even properly spawn, which drives me into the dilemma of “Use this build and never get enough contribution/results or use DPS build like others to melt and win”…

Not to mention, that 2/3 of game mechanics are designed for “Long duration combat scenarios”.

Mobs that die in 1-3 seconds are not in category of “Long duration combat scenario”…

Of course, I’m not saying that game should be Super hard and punishing, nor am I talking about forcing players to play specific roles…