Guild Wars 2

And what happens when people have everything because the rare skins are all easier to obtain?

Ayrilana.1396:

And what happens when people have everything because the rare skins are all easier to obtain?

The same people who are asking for faster acquisition of those “rare” items would be back demanding more new stuff to pursue — along with anyone else who plays for loot.

If ArenaNet has been good about one thing, it’s producing new visual content for the game. Sure, most of it is on the gemstore or tied up in Black Lion Key RNG, but skins are not something the game lacks a consistent stream of.

So if the rare skins are easier to acquire, that isn’t a bad thing. ArenaNet is producing new, rare skins on a regular basis anyway, so the whole “people will run out!” argument falls apart unless specifically applied to the Top .001% of the playerbase that turbo-acquire everything.

Ayrilana.1396:

And what happens when people have everything because the rare skins are all easier to obtain?

Putting all those gem store skins inside the game behind content would very very easily solve this problem. Anet can produce new armor/weapon skins at a very fast pace, they just need to put them in actual drops from content and this “problem” will never happen.

maddoctor.2738:

Ayrilana.1396:

And what happens when people have everything because the rare skins are all easier to obtain?

Putting all those gem store skins inside the game behind content would very very easily solve this problem. Anet can produce new armor/weapon skins at a very fast pace, they just need to put them in actual drops from content and this “problem” will never happen.

Or keep them in the gemstore for people who want the immediate payoff, and offer either a gold-to-gems route or a content completion route for those who want to feel like they earned it. Personally, my answer will always bias toward “why not both?”

TaCktiX.6729:

maddoctor.2738:

Ayrilana.1396:

And what happens when people have everything because the rare skins are all easier to obtain?

Putting all those gem store skins inside the game behind content would very very easily solve this problem. Anet can produce new armor/weapon skins at a very fast pace, they just need to put them in actual drops from content and this “problem” will never happen.

Or keep them in the gemstore for people who want the immediate payoff, and offer either a gold-to-gems route or a content completion route for those who want to feel like they earned it. Personally, my answer will always bias toward “why not both?”

What is the difference between the ability to earn gold through content and then exchange it for gems to buy it and gating the item itself behind content completion?

I wish there were filtering options so that any blue, green, or trophy drops I get would be automatically trashed. The amount of time I have to spent each night salvaging (lol) and clearing my inventory of just plain garbage is considerable. Why the kitten would any level 80 want any drops lower than Rare from anything to begin with? I quite literally often don’t even pick up loot in WvW because it saves me the time of dealing with the garbage it inevitably contains.

Wanze.8410:

TaCktiX.6729:

maddoctor.2738:

Ayrilana.1396:

And what happens when people have everything because the rare skins are all easier to obtain?

Putting all those gem store skins inside the game behind content would very very easily solve this problem. Anet can produce new armor/weapon skins at a very fast pace, they just need to put them in actual drops from content and this “problem” will never happen.

Or keep them in the gemstore for people who want the immediate payoff, and offer either a gold-to-gems route or a content completion route for those who want to feel like they earned it. Personally, my answer will always bias toward “why not both?”

What is the difference between the ability to earn gold through content and then exchange it for gems to buy it and gating the item itself behind content completion?

There are 2 important reasons.

A) It’s how it feels. If I get an item through actual content it feels like I accomplished something, while getting it with gold isn’t the same. I want to be directly rewarded for doing the content, not indirectly.

B) Far easier to balance and control for the devs so they can make different aspects of the game more enticing for players. While everything is tied to earning gold, players find the best way to farm gold and stay there completely ignoring the rest of the game. Easy dungeon paths, champion trains, edge of the mists etc are been overdone because they are the most effective way of earning gold. While harder dungeons are completely empty because they are not worth doing anymore.

Wanze.8410:

TaCktiX.6729:

maddoctor.2738:

Ayrilana.1396:

And what happens when people have everything because the rare skins are all easier to obtain?

Putting all those gem store skins inside the game behind content would very very easily solve this problem. Anet can produce new armor/weapon skins at a very fast pace, they just need to put them in actual drops from content and this “problem” will never happen.

Or keep them in the gemstore for people who want the immediate payoff, and offer either a gold-to-gems route or a content completion route for those who want to feel like they earned it. Personally, my answer will always bias toward “why not both?”

What is the difference between the ability to earn gold through content and then exchange it for gems to buy it and gating the item itself behind content completion?

Skill-based vs grind-based?
Generally, lot of people like it more if they are able to accomplish something on their own directly (even if farming the gold for it would actually be easier). As long as that accomplishment is something they realistically can expect, and the disparity between skill and grind route is not that huge.
Btw, “skill” doesn’t need to actually be skill here – scavenger hunts like mawdrey backpiece work as well.

maddoctor.2738:

Wanze.8410:

TaCktiX.6729:

maddoctor.2738:

Ayrilana.1396:

And what happens when people have everything because the rare skins are all easier to obtain?

Putting all those gem store skins inside the game behind content would very very easily solve this problem. Anet can produce new armor/weapon skins at a very fast pace, they just need to put them in actual drops from content and this “problem” will never happen.

Or keep them in the gemstore for people who want the immediate payoff, and offer either a gold-to-gems route or a content completion route for those who want to feel like they earned it. Personally, my answer will always bias toward “why not both?”

What is the difference between the ability to earn gold through content and then exchange it for gems to buy it and gating the item itself behind content completion?

There are 2 important reasons.

A) It’s how it feels. If I get an item through actual content it feels like I accomplished something, while getting it with gold isn’t the same. I want to be directly rewarded for doing the content, not indirectly.

B) Far easier to balance and control for the devs so they can make different aspects of the game more enticing for players. While everything is tied to earning gold, players find the best way to farm gold and stay there completely ignoring the rest of the game. Easy dungeon paths, champion trains, edge of the mists etc are been overdone because they are the most effective way of earning gold. While harder dungeons are completely empty because they are not worth doing anymore.

A) I guess its your perception that has to change then. I think you only want to be directly rewarded with the item right now because its not the status quo.
Right now you run a dungeon 5 times to get 7.5g to buy the item. If they change it, so you get a guaranteed item drop after five dungeon runs, I guarantee you that after 25 runs, getting that item doesnt feel that special anymore and all you gonna do is sell it on the tp to get gold to buy something else you actually want. Its actually your choice to repetively consume content that gets boring. Just do something else, get different loot and you will feel more rewarded.

B)Every new content update they send live contains new loot and rewards, so they are actually doing that already. Again, if you choose to do the same content over and over again, its your own choice. Dont expect Anet to switch out your loot tables every time you get bored with it.

Even worse, moving some things off the exclusive Gold Standard will reduce the attraction of gems to gold conversion, which very likely is a sizable portion of the gem store’s revenue.

This is actually the real problem – at least in how I see things.

You see the people at Anet are just that – they’re people.

People tend to make cautious decisions especially when it comes to things that can have major consequences on their general well being.

Cutting down gem store revenue ( an immediate effect of OP’s suggestion) would probably be felt closer than the possible revenue they could obtain if player satisfaction rates go up.

And even then – who can guarantee that more satisfied players will pay more? Or that the revenue will go up at any point?

Ultimately Anet is running a business- the kind where work goes in and money comes out.
Most of the decisions ( if not all of them) surrounding the game will ultimately boil down to : will it make us more money or even worse – what if it makes us less.

A lot of people quit the game because the loot drops are terrible, getting the item they want is virtually impossible without mindless farming, or a myriad of other reward-related gripes

And I think a lot of people still play because of the grind and the time gating. I certainly wouldn’t be logging in every day if there wasn’t some time gated content that I had to do on that specific day.
Possibly a lot of the players currently playing are feeling a similar pressure to log in daily and do this or that.

This constant, daily exposure to the game has a wide range of beneficial effects for Anet’s game ranging from having a well populated game to exposing people more often to gem store offers and much more.

Lots have quit the game because of rewards and time gating but I fear that a lot more players are sticking to it specifically because of these aspects. I know a lot of players that play every day and keep playing because they want to make things easier for themselves when new skins/weapons/etc come out. Not because they particularly feel like doing it on that particular day/week/month.

Apart from these aspects – I agree with the OP.
Many posters have suggested parts of what he’s saying in one form or another for a long time. He also brings up a lot of things that have become apparent to veterans and invested players.

Either way – the article is really well written and the solutions could work but ultimately it’ll come down to Anet’s decision and their willingness to risk profit for player satisfaction.

Third Eye.6718:

@Wanze – the deflation of DUSK is minimal at best… in fact I’d say it’s more plateaued if anything.

You are right. But i was speaking more about precursor prices in general than specific precursors. Precursors in the lower price sections also arent affected as much by the changes that Anet made to loot drops (bigger faucets for t5 common and fine mats) in season 2.

That is because in order for these mats to have an effect on the end price of the precursor, the main source of rare weapons of the type has to be crafting. Thats the case for higher priced, popular precursors, like gs, sw, dagger, staff, hammer etc. where rares from drops cant cover demand but for the lower price, less popular precursors, the main source of rares still comes from drops (as crafting them isnt profitable).
So those arent as much affected by the bigger t5 mat faucets from season 2.

Also, Dusk has to be seen differently than other pres because its one of 2 greatswords and its the more popular one of those 2.
Even though forging greatswords became cheaper over the last months, statistically, only half of every gs precursor is dusk, the other half is dawn. AS demand for dusk is higher, its natural that its price falls at a slower pace (or stays stable) compared to Dawn.
The price decrease is way more visible with Dawn, which lost a little over 10% in value since its peak in August last year. That might not sound much but from March 2013 to March 2014 Dawn also didnt inflate more than 10% in more than twice the time, so a 10% decrease in is quite substancial.

And it completely negates the argument that its impossible to work towards your goal (earning enough gold to buy a precursor) because your earnings are outpaced by price inflation.

Harper.4173:

And I think a lot of people still play because of the grind and the time gating. I certainly wouldn’t be logging in every day if there wasn’t some time gated content that I had to do on that specific day.
Possibly a lot of the players currently playing are feeling a similar pressure to log in daily and do this or that.

Not trying to pick nits, but I actually praised time gating as a decoupled non-Gold Standard thing present in the game. Sure, I didn’t like it at first, but as the market has settled out it’s a viable alternative for people with more funds and the desire to acquire something quickly.

Wanze.8410:

The price decrease is way more visible with Dawn, which lost a little over 10% in value since its peak in August last year. That might not sound much but from March 2013 to March 2014 Dawn also didnt inflate more than 10% in more than twice the time, so a 10% decrease in is quite substancial.

And it completely negates the argument that its impossible to work towards your goal (earning enough gold to buy a precursor) because your earnings are outpaced by price inflation.

Not sure what numbers you are using.

March 1st 2013 540g 58s 39c
March 1st 2014 621g 41s 72c

A difference of 80g 83s 33c or a 14.95% increase

Point being we can all cherry pick numbers to fit our positions. The overall trend of things matters more.

I’d much rather had the old system( yes gw1 again). Where you had the option to farm the skin you so much desired.

TaCktiX.6729:

Harper.4173:

And I think a lot of people still play because of the grind and the time gating. I certainly wouldn’t be logging in every day if there wasn’t some time gated content that I had to do on that specific day.
Possibly a lot of the players currently playing are feeling a similar pressure to log in daily and do this or that.

Not trying to pick nits, but I actually praised time gating as a decoupled non-Gold Standard thing present in the game. Sure, I didn’t like it at first, but as the market has settled out it’s a viable alternative for people with more funds and the desire to acquire something quickly.

Sorry – my bad then.

Essence Snow.3194:

Wanze.8410:

The price decrease is way more visible with Dawn, which lost a little over 10% in value since its peak in August last year. That might not sound much but from March 2013 to March 2014 Dawn also didnt inflate more than 10% in more than twice the time, so a 10% decrease in is quite substancial.

And it completely negates the argument that its impossible to work towards your goal (earning enough gold to buy a precursor) because your earnings are outpaced by price inflation.

Not sure what numbers you are using.

March 1st 2013 540g 58s 39c
March 1st 2014 621g 41s 72c

A difference of 80g 83s 33c or a 14.95% increase

Point being we can all cherry pick numbers to fit our positions. The overall trend of things matters more.

From end of March to end of March its 600g to 600g.

If you want to contest my position that the overall trend of precursor prices is going down since their peak in last August, go right ahead.

I’d rather not try to prove a point using spike or slump numbers as doing so would invalidate it for the most part. I’ll be more than happy to discuss more relevant numbers that more accurately reflect the overall value of said items.

Essence Snow.3194:

I’d rather not try to prove a point using spike or slump numbers as doing so would invalidate it for the most part. I’ll be more than happy to discuss more relevant numbers that more accurately reflect the overall value of said items.

Well, make a point on topic then and back it up.

Do you think Anet did nothing in order to stop the obvious price inflation of precursor prices from launch until their peak last august with their reward system in season 2?

I said nothing of the sort. I never made that contention. Those are your words not mine.

Of course they arent your words because it was a question I asked you.

Well if you’re going to ask me a question that inquires about my position please do not load such question so as it actually doesn’t ask my position.

To answer your question (which does not reflect my position as noted above), the Season 2 reward system does help (help being the key word) alleviate the rising costs, Wintersday much more so temporarily.

Great, thanks.

Now, if you would like to state your opinion about the suggestions that were made by the article linked in the OP, we can continue with the discussion.

Harper.4173:

Even worse, moving some things off the exclusive Gold Standard will reduce the attraction of gems to gold conversion, which very likely is a sizable portion of the gem store’s revenue.

This is actually the real problem – at least in how I see things.

You see the people at Anet are just that – they’re people.

People tend to make cautious decisions especially when it comes to things that can have major consequences on their general well being.

Cutting down gem store revenue ( an immediate effect of OP’s suggestion) would probably be felt closer than the possible revenue they could obtain if player satisfaction rates go up.

And even then – who can guarantee that more satisfied players will pay more? Or that the revenue will go up at any point?

Ultimately Anet is running a business- the kind where work goes in and money comes out.
Most of the decisions ( if not all of them) surrounding the game will ultimately boil down to : will it make us more money or even worse – what if it makes us less.

A lot of people quit the game because the loot drops are terrible, getting the item they want is virtually impossible without mindless farming, or a myriad of other reward-related gripes

And I think a lot of people still play because of the grind and the time gating. I certainly wouldn’t be logging in every day if there wasn’t some time gated content that I had to do on that specific day.
Possibly a lot of the players currently playing are feeling a similar pressure to log in daily and do this or that.

This constant, daily exposure to the game has a wide range of beneficial effects for Anet’s game ranging from having a well populated game to exposing people more often to gem store offers and much more.

Lots have quit the game because of rewards and time gating but I fear that a lot more players are sticking to it specifically because of these aspects. I know a lot of players that play every day and keep playing because they want to make things easier for themselves when new skins/weapons/etc come out. Not because they particularly feel like doing it on that particular day/week/month.

Apart from these aspects – I agree with the OP.
Many posters have suggested parts of what he’s saying in one form or another for a long time. He also brings up a lot of things that have become apparent to veterans and invested players.

Either way – the article is really well written and the solutions could work but ultimately it’ll come down to Anet’s decision and their willingness to risk profit for player satisfaction.

Best response in this thread. It’s worth reading if you glazed over it.

Ayrilana.1396:

And what happens when people have everything because the rare skins are all easier to obtain?

Some people believe that acquiring rare items is somehow meaningful, the main goal or purpose of the game. I am not one of them.

What I really want to see: new dungeons, continents, etc. Exploring new areas, fighting new epic bosses with the character I designed, seeing it all come together.

New content is a must IMO. PVE content inherently lacks replay value because it is static in so many ways. Stretching the PVE content out with long item grinds makes it “like butter scraped over too much bread”.

I do not care about amassing loot, feeling wealthy, virtual “achievement”. The game is simply a dynamic art experience, like a movie where I get to dress up my character and direct some of the flow of events. I do not view the game as a social status simulator.

Making it tedious to obtain some of the art only annoys me.

I would be more than happy to pay a big subscription fee to keep the game going, as long as Anet keeps the dynamic art coming.

Do not try to make me grind, that disrespects my time.

If items are to be gated by something, I prefer that it be player skill, and not time, e.g. giving you account-bound rare skins for completing stuff on “super hard” mode, or things like that.

Ayrilana.1396:

And what happens when people have everything because the rare skins are all easier to obtain?

It’s been a couple days since I read the article but I don’t seem to recall things being easy to obtain was the point. It was more about diversity of methods to obtain things, not just mostly, grind gold to what you want.

Sure there are some gamers out there who’d like things handed do them. But a point that’s been made over, and over, and over, and ooooooooooooooooooover ad nauseam is that many of us want more interesting and diverse methods to earn the cool stuff. We want it to be meaningful. We don’t want to just go out and grind gold to get our Shiny Sword of Shinies. We want an epic quest or scavenger hunt or a challenging instance or raid.

But nah, when people object to loot acquisition in GW2 because it’s a meaningless, boring gold grind that favors TP day traders (which further devalues [emotionally/subjectively] rarer stuff since people can just flip to earn money,) it’s easier to not really read what they write, jump to conclusions and assume they all are lazy and just want to earn things through little effort.

Wanze.8410:

From end of March to end of March its 600g to 600g.

From my casual stand point, if I were to gain 10g/hr, 600g = 60hrs.

If I were to play just to gain 10g/hr for 4hrs, that would take me 15 days, 4hrs/day, of grinding.

Since I am a casual player, I can only invest 1-2hrs in grinding since I would be bored and would want to do something else in the game. Which means at 10g/hr/day, that would mean 60 days; and 20g/2 hrs/day means 30 days.

Assuming that the market price didn’t change (or remain the same), by the end of 30-60 days, I would have enough money to buy Dusk.

However, that’s just for the Precursor, to make a Legendary I would have to grind even more for other ingredients which at some point I would have to decide if it’s even worth it.

My main reason to acquire a Legendary is not only for the skin but also the ability to change up the stats. So part of the decision is; Would I want to sink that much gold to acquire one item or purchase Exotics, each for different stats, and keep the rest of my gold?

In the end of the day, I don’t even care about Legendary anymore since it’s really not needed and the skin I’ve acquired from Hall of Monument for GS is, IMO, the real Legendary because no one else but those who has HoM can have it.

I guess, but 10g/hour just isn’t sustainable for most people. It’s SOOOOO boring.

I think what this all boils down to is perception. We can throw facts at it all day, it still doesn’t impact the experience that so many have had. I understand waiting for a drop, or possibly seeing what changes announcements at PAX will bring. I’m interested to see what announcements will be made. But if they don’t address this, it still takes away from long term people’s experience. It’d be nice if there was some combination of things…like if you could craft one precursor once you’ve logged x number of hours in the game or something.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Wanze.8410:

From end of March to end of March its 600g to 600g.

From my casual stand point, if I were to gain 10g/hr, 600g = 60hrs.

If I were to play just to gain 10g/hr for 4hrs, that would take me 15 days, 4hrs/day, of grinding.

Since I am a casual player, I can only invest 1-2hrs in grinding since I would be bored and would want to do something else in the game. Which means at 10g/hr/day, that would mean 60 days; and 20g/2 hrs/day means 30 days.

Assuming that the market price didn’t change (or remain the same), by the end of 30-60 days, I would have enough money to buy Dusk.

However, that’s just for the Precursor, to make a Legendary I would have to grind even more for other ingredients which at some point I would have to decide if it’s even worth it.

My main reason to acquire a Legendary is not only for the skin but also the ability to change up the stats. So part of the decision is; Would I want to sink that much gold to acquire one item or purchase Exotics, each for different stats, and keep the rest of my gold?

In the end of the day, I don’t even care about Legendary anymore since it’s really not needed and the skin I’ve acquired from Hall of Monument for GS is, IMO, the real Legendary because no one else but those who has HoM can have it.

The stat changing feature isnt really that great because most of the time, changing stats and a build also requires you to change your sigil. And as Soon as you have a expensive sigil for one build, you are reluctant to destroy it.
Personally, i use my legendaries only for 1 stat combo and crafted ascended weapons for the other builds and applied the skin to it.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

In the end of the day, I don’t even care about Legendary anymore since it’s really not needed and the skin I’ve acquired from Hall of Monument for GS is, IMO, the real Legendary because no one else but those who has HoM can have it.

Honestly, it’s the only reason I have two swords on my warrior. Dual-wielding Fiery Dragon Swords and standing next to Rytlock was funny to just do and idle.

On the note of “why Legendary” I mostly decided way back I’d only pursue one if a Precursor fell into my lap. That was the least aggravating way for me to chase a Legendary at that time, since it was back when the Temple of Balthazar was rarely, if ever, completed.

Wanze.8410:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Wanze.8410:

From end of March to end of March its 600g to 600g.

From my casual stand point, if I were to gain 10g/hr, 600g = 60hrs.

If I were to play just to gain 10g/hr for 4hrs, that would take me 15 days, 4hrs/day, of grinding.

Since I am a casual player, I can only invest 1-2hrs in grinding since I would be bored and would want to do something else in the game. Which means at 10g/hr/day, that would mean 60 days; and 20g/2 hrs/day means 30 days.

Assuming that the market price didn’t change (or remain the same), by the end of 30-60 days, I would have enough money to buy Dusk.

However, that’s just for the Precursor, to make a Legendary I would have to grind even more for other ingredients which at some point I would have to decide if it’s even worth it.

My main reason to acquire a Legendary is not only for the skin but also the ability to change up the stats. So part of the decision is; Would I want to sink that much gold to acquire one item or purchase Exotics, each for different stats, and keep the rest of my gold?

In the end of the day, I don’t even care about Legendary anymore since it’s really not needed and the skin I’ve acquired from Hall of Monument for GS is, IMO, the real Legendary because no one else but those who has HoM can have it.

The stat changing feature isnt really that great because most of the time, changing stats and a build also requires you to change your sigil. And as Soon as you have a expensive sigil for one build, you are reluctant to destroy it.
Personally, i use my legendaries only for 1 stat combo and crafted ascended weapons for the other builds and applied the skin to it.

That’s the only edge that Legendary has other than the foot print effects and if that is the case, I am more convinced that they aren’t needed.

Besides, the item loses its legendary status the more people has the same Legendary item. Just like how the “Unique” status of items in GW1 have diminished over time.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Wanze.8410:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Wanze.8410:

From end of March to end of March its 600g to 600g.

From my casual stand point, if I were to gain 10g/hr, 600g = 60hrs.

If I were to play just to gain 10g/hr for 4hrs, that would take me 15 days, 4hrs/day, of grinding.

Since I am a casual player, I can only invest 1-2hrs in grinding since I would be bored and would want to do something else in the game. Which means at 10g/hr/day, that would mean 60 days; and 20g/2 hrs/day means 30 days.

Assuming that the market price didn’t change (or remain the same), by the end of 30-60 days, I would have enough money to buy Dusk.

However, that’s just for the Precursor, to make a Legendary I would have to grind even more for other ingredients which at some point I would have to decide if it’s even worth it.

My main reason to acquire a Legendary is not only for the skin but also the ability to change up the stats. So part of the decision is; Would I want to sink that much gold to acquire one item or purchase Exotics, each for different stats, and keep the rest of my gold?

In the end of the day, I don’t even care about Legendary anymore since it’s really not needed and the skin I’ve acquired from Hall of Monument for GS is, IMO, the real Legendary because no one else but those who has HoM can have it.

The stat changing feature isnt really that great because most of the time, changing stats and a build also requires you to change your sigil. And as Soon as you have a expensive sigil for one build, you are reluctant to destroy it.
Personally, i use my legendaries only for 1 stat combo and crafted ascended weapons for the other builds and applied the skin to it.

That’s the only edge that Legendary has other than the foot print effects and if that is the case, I am more convinced that they aren’t needed.

Besides, the item loses its legendary status the more people has the same Legendary item. Just like how the “Unique” status of items in GW1 have diminished over time.

I actually quite enjoyed crafting my first legendary 6 months after launch because it required me to do nearly all aspects of the game, so that way Anet basically steered me towards all the content the game has and i did some stuff i normally wouldnt have done and some of it i quite enjoyed, and still do. For example WvW.
Of course i was excited when i crafted it but retrospectively, the journey towards it felt more rewarding that using it.

I just crafted my 2nd one after i got zap from the forge over christmas. I just bought the stuff i still needed on buy order, i already had enough clovers, karma, skillpoints, badges and tokens. Crafting it didnt feel really special anymore.

Got dawn today but didnt feel like crafting sunrise (no way i gonna do map completion again) and got the greatsaw skin instead.

How many people criticizing loot drops have maxed out their MF? We have all had some temp max MF, but that’s very short-lived from the perspective of forming an impression about drops in general. I’ve been told (I don’t know how true it is), that MF has a major impact on your drops. And, you’ll note that ANET has been making it increasingly easy to get Luck and bump up your MF %. I suspect that’s because so many people complain about the drops without taking concrete steps to get their numbers up past 200.

Anyone complaining about loot today must not have been around at launch… Nowadays you can’t sneeze without champ bags flying out your butt. Back then champ bags didn’t even exist… You would be lucky to fill half your inventory on a dungeon run. Now it’s like I need to take a TP break before we even reach the final boss. Don’t even get me started on how scarce loot was in WvW.

Edit: To be fair, the extra loot from bags and MF drops really only contribute to inflation in the end. 99% of it is vendor trash.

Xenon.4537:

Anyone complaining about loot today must not have been around at launch… Nowadays you can’t sneeze without champ bags flying out your butt. Back then champ bags didn’t even exist… You would be lucky to fill half your inventory on a dungeon run. Now it’s like I need to take a TP break before we even reach the final boss. Don’t even get me started on how scarce loot was in WvW.

Edit: To be fair, the extra loot from bags and MF drops really only contribute to inflation in the end. 99% of it is vendor trash.

Yet the game was more rewarding at launch if you played it for the rewards.

CoF P1 repeat farm was one of THE most profitable things you could do back then. And it was fast. And it made a lot of people a lot of money.

That aside – I see a lot of talk about legendary weapons and can’t seem to shake the feeling that they got them wrong.

They’re not an awesome journey rich with lore and discovery that you go on in order to obtain your much desired weapon.

It feels more like a list you’re ticking things off than anything else. There’s really nothing “legendary” about it. You click – buy some stuff, click some more, buy some more -rinse and repeat.

There’s no real moment where a connection between you and the weapon is formed. No critical challenge you must overcome. You simply peck at it each day until ultimately you get it. No big finale, no wow moment – nothing.

I fear this is a mistake.

I talked about GW2 with a lot of friends that don’t play it but play other MMOs. When they see a legendary they all go " wow – what’d you do to get it? " and after I tell them they’ll usually be surprised/amused.

You wouldn’t expect a game’s most prestigious item to be a shopping list.

So much analysis of the contrast between two subjectives. I don’t think looking at making things ‘easier’ or ‘harder’ is the right axis to examine.

I think the present experience of acquiring a precursor, the stuff for a legendary and ultimately the legendary itself needs to be totally and completely scrapped.

My position is, of course, informed strictly by my (absolutely biased) platform of favoring the player experience. I do not see it needing to be a binary either/or matter for game companies looking to turn a profit in a story-driven fantasy-based MMO to couch prestigious gear acquisition in story-driven formats.

Here, they went on favor of what I see as being the cop-out of an overglorified slot machine. Your odds are better in Vegas – save your shekels, take a flight out to a casino and throw your money after better odds, if you have to throw it into a hole like that at all.

What I think it should be? Here’s an example -

We have a lot of world bosses. There’s a lot of incentive on Anet’s part to get people invested in the game so they’ll perhaps spend some money on it. What if they took their own idea of things like Mordrem organ collectors and made tools like that for world bosses?

What if you needed a piece of every stinking world boss to begin a questline that would be all about processing these reagents. Step one: Collect lots of kitten from some seriously epic beasties (most wouldn’t find this kittene could do it in a day if they hopped aboard the worldboss zerg train.)

Step two? Chiefly solo instanced missions taking your pile’o’parts to various parts of the world and Doing Fancy Things with them there. Crafting a legendary should test your mettle – some of these instances should absolutely force solo play and make the player square off against some stiff bosses. Not quantities of HP-bloated trash – that’s dull.

A few high-quality fights that absolutely cannot be facerolled, and might very well be the cause of much frustration and angst on the parts of those that lack the skill or the willingness to acquire it.

You’re taking your pile’o’parts to be processed by The Last Dwarven Smith in the Epic Cave of Epicness? Beware the ancient golem with stupidly high Toughness and a strong ranged attack he’ll let fly with if you don’t stay within a certain range of him.

Can’t kite at range, you’ll get lasered into the dirt. Can’t stand there and trade blows – you’ll be the one turned to paste. Get ready to put your best Melee and/or Condition Hat on and dodge like you know how to play! And you’d better get tactical too, ‘cause he’ll periodically try to get to a power station. Immobilize him ,fear him away from it, do whatever you can to not let him get to that station, or he’ll just heal himself and you’re gonna have to start again.

That could be one fight. There could be a dozen like it, each of them tailored to different requirements, every single one of them questions. Do know how to play your character like this? Can you play it well enough to overcome this? Here’s an unkillable boss you -have- to kite through intermittent lightning fields while keeping it away from the NPC you’re trying to protect – can you do it?

At the end, when you have all the stuff to make your legendary processed and sorted, you are given the manufactured precursor of your choice.

Why only the precursor? Because your road’s just starting, kiddo – Legendary means you’re gonna be up to your eyes in it before this is done. You’re going to have to take that precursor out into the world and you’re going to have to do some very specific things with it.

There’ll be no mercy. You’ll have to take that thing into at least one dungeon and be allowed by your teammates to strike the killing blow on a specific boss with it as one part of awakening your precursor. You’ll have to have it equipped while you mow down 2,000 other players in WvW and spvp (but not EotM).

You’ll have to take it to at least a few different places in various jumping puzzles.

Awakening every specific legendary should have its own particular requirements. Yeah, it’d be some developmental work, but in the end?

I think people in general would be much happier with something that’d quite possibly take them months to do while, at the same time, favoring nothing except their ability to play well and their willingness to get out there and get it done.

Hinging it on how well you can form gold is just …pathetic. Utterly tragic. Forgetable.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=vaettir+farming

I had a ton of fun doing this, regardless of the loot, something about gathering together 36 foes, and destroying them at the same time!

naiasonod.9265:

What I think it should be? Here’s an example –
~snip~

That is brilliant! Just brilliant! +1

Third Eye.6718:

@wanze “completely negates the argument that its impossible to work towards your goal (earning enough gold to buy a precursor) because your earnings are outpaced by price inflation.”

I agree it’s not impossible to work towards the precursor goal, my point is the time investment required means it isn’t going to be feasible for the casual player. So they either play the TP(which isn’t really playing the game thus works against it), pay up (which isn’t cheap) or miss out… all of which works against the games own philosophy of playing how you want and being aimed at casuals.

Of course its not feasable for the casual player and its meant as a long term goal to craft a legendary. And it goes well with their philosophy of play how you want because the functionality of a legendary isnt required to play any content.

They didnt advertise “Look how you want”.

naiasonod.9265:

So much analysis of the contrast between two subjectives. I don’t think looking at making things ‘easier’ or ‘harder’ is the right axis to examine.

I think the present experience of acquiring a precursor, the stuff for a legendary and ultimately the legendary itself needs to be totally and completely scrapped.

Yes, and I think they should be completely Account Bound if we want to go the route of making people work for it and at the same time easier to start on the path. Of course, as buying/selling/flipping Precursors is kind of the cornerstone of the Black Lion high-tier economy? Should probably expect a lot of flak thrown over any perceived chances of ruining that 1% chance to get set for life on a random drop.

What I think it should be? Here’s an example -

What makes you think Mawdrey/Mordrem Extraction isn’t a beta test of the mechanics for just such a thing? I’ve been saying they feel a lot like things which could have been a Precursor Scavenger Hunt but either deemed not enough or needing real-world testing before going forward.

I’d rather avoid the hefty combat-focused encounter, though. Frankly, I expect there’s a lot of players who wouldn’t be able to do it and it’d frustrate them as much as the freaking Clock Tower does . . .

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

What makes you think Mawdrey/Mordrem Extraction isn’t a beta test of the mechanics for just such a thing?

It’d be nice if that were so. Is it? They don’t tell us much. I can say ‘it would be nice if’ about a lot of things, but looking at the past two years to give any expectation of what the next two day/weeks/months will bring?

Doesn’t give me a lot of cause to hope. Others’ mileage may vary, but devs don’t get my hope, faith or goodwill about such things anymore. They never do anything but obliterate it and prove me stupid for bothering when, in times past, I’ve hoped for or looked forward to pretty much anything.

Could it be that? Sure. Will it be? I dunno. I won’t expect anything but a big, fat nothing until its live no matter.

Never expect anything and you’re rarely disappointed.

naiasonod.9265:

Never expect anything and you’re rarely disappointed.

But are you ever given satisfaction for being right? I’d say the hollow feeling of being right isn’t worth the utter cynicism your quote here requires. It’s all down to personal ethos, really, but . . . I find optimism (even cautious optimism) makes me feel a lot better than simply expecting nothing but ball shots from everyone I talk to. (Verbal or otherwise.)

Oh, by the way, if you want a good idea of how to construct the feeling of truly making an epic weapon worthy of both the final product and the journey? I present to you a book to find and take a look at.

And, yes, it’s stuck in a defunct ruleset which was dying even as it was published but definitely worth a look over.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

naiasonod.9265:

Never expect anything and you’re rarely disappointed.

But are you ever given satisfaction for being right? I’d say the hollow feeling of being right isn’t worth the utter cynicism your quote here requires.

Oh, I’m not nearly so cynical about my fellow players in general. Dear me no. Just game studios. I won’t even pretend I’m anything other than utterly jaded and cynical when it comes to expectations and hopes lain at their feet.

Incidentally, I’m quite familiar with that book! It sits alongside many of its brethren across numerous editions on some of my shelves, as well as a number of other tabletop games’ rulebooks and compendiums.

Old tabletop aficionado that I be, I have the stunning problem of historically expecting far more from MMO’s than dev studios ever intend to do with them. Once upon a time, I was the sort of idiot that thought these sorts of things could be amazing, maybe even like tabletop gaming!

NOOOOOOOOOOPE.

Reality ensued. Flash forward quite a few years and now I don’t invest a scrap of my good will or my general faith-in-trust to studios at all.

But my fellow players, I far more often dig than not. As salty as I am, I get on quite well with most people in this and myriad games, and I deeply enjoy helping other players get on with what they’re wanting to do.

Nothing in all the gaming-oriented portion of my life has ever been such a cesspit of disappointment and going-nowhere hype as MMO’s. I wouldn’t touch the dang things with someone else’s appendages if I didn’t like gaming with and meeting people online so darn much.

But I’m quite done pretending I think game devs are anything other than slaves to a corporate overlord at best, and lunatics drunk on their own hubris and arrogance at worst. Frankly, I wish someone had sat me down umpteen years ago and explained very specifically to me that, when I installed Ultima Online and discovered online gaming via its medium, I was about to embark on a journey that would span at least the next decade and a half of my gaming life, and every single step of the way would be filled by two recurring lessons.

Lesson one – the developers do not have your best interests in mind. They work for money, not for you. They have to keep their customers happy to a certain extent, but no matter if they’re wonderful people that wish they could do every amazing thing everyone ever wished or horrible sociopaths that believe players should take what they’re given and be grateful they’ve been permitted to behold their 5-watt brilliance at all, one fact is always true.

Developers work for money. Not our respect, not our admiration, not our good will – money. Only in the ways that our respect, good will and positive sentiments translate into money do those matter, and its not really uncommon for game devs to lack the sense a reasonably successful hotdog vendor will absolutely have about keeping the customer happy.

They’re just people, and like every other demographic of people in the world, some of them really suck.

Lesson two – your expectations are your own fault. Hope at your own risk. They’ll promise you the moon if you’ll buy their ocean-front property in Arizona, but most of the time, all you’ll get will be their minimum effort and a sterilized bunch of excuses peppered through with convenient facts about hardware/engine limitations and technical inabilities where applicable.

Again, its really just about money, especially nowadays when the technical limitations are significantly fewer, though the excuses are just as gold-plated as ever. They can do pretty much anything that’s ever been done in single player games – they just don’t want to.

And why should they? Modern MMO gamers have been groomed for years on into successive generations internalizing the nonsense they’ve been getting away with for nigh-on two decades now. People not only believe the lies and rhetoric, but will defend them as sacred tenets about ‘what an MMO is’ and declare that ‘maybe MMOs aren’t for you’ if you don’t happen to think its the height of brilliance to pay a studio to make you work at another career.

They’ve successfully taught countless millions to think of ‘fun’ as being defined by brief relief from the senses of poverty respective to not having things they’re taught to think they need.

So no. I don’t have very high opinions of MMO devs. Game devs in general, sure. MMO devs? They’re more expert in wasting peoples’ time and designing things to suit a vampiric profit agenda than making anything that even vaguely resembles my idea of fun.

For the record though, no, I often hate being right. It usually means someone was stupid in exactly the fashion I’d hoped on some level they wouldn’t have been.

…after 18 months, I lurk about and what do I find?
An absolute gem of an article.
To the author: well done, sir.

Reading through some recent threads here I unfortunately also realised that the things about this game and developer that I found intolerable 18 months ago is still very much present.

…some rumors about (promising, I almost let slip!) changes coming soon. Guess I’ll keep watching from the shadows for a while longer.