Guild Wars 2

maddoctor.2738:

A character in full zerker gear is also a GW2 Healer if he is using skills that provide healing for his team

never questioned that. But this small amounts of support/heal are not enough to satisfy someone looking for a “classic” supporter. DPS roles in trinity games got the same amount of heal/support a GW2 “zerk healer” offers.

maddoctor.2738:

So why is it that a “Cleric” Guard would feel different enough, but a "Zerker Guard using the same skills is not?

A cleric guard would feel different because he would “move” HP bars, his healing would have some impact. You could give another player regeneration and see some effect. A fullnomad tank also feels different than a fullzerk. Even if you use the same skills and traits.

(and I’m not asking to change anything. I don’t think GW2s gameplay is “fixable” without having to redo half of the game and annoy every player. GW2 should and will stay as it is.)

Jockum.1385:

Now look at clerics gear: classic trinity equip. You deal no damage but get good healing. That’s imho a design flaw. It’s like taking the gun from a battlefield medic.
Such a medic would be bad in BF. And such a healer is usually bad in GW2.
There are ways to implement roles, make them useful. See BF where medics are accepted and useful.

To be fair though, the design flaw with cleric’s gear is more in the fact that Power, Precision and Ferocity stack in such an absurd way.

Cleric’s gear has power as a secondary on it. It does have a damage stat. It’s just that 900 power only produces a fourth of the damage of 1300 power + 900 precision + 900 ferocity.

There isn’t even a gear set that gives you Healing, Power, Precision so you could at least get to maybe half the damage of Berzerker.

If they just changed how damage scales exponentially to absurd levels you wouldn’t end up with a situation where a character in Cleric’s gear, which actually has offensive stats even is considered to be dealing no damage.

Aetrion.8295:

Thousands of build options, yet nobody gets to be unique

No one gets to be unique in any MMO. Hundreds of thousands of players with multiple characters each in any game with not only a limited number of options, but an even smaller number that are just plain superior to others, ensures that. That super awesome unique build that you might have discovered or invented in another game is used by thousands (or more) of others.

Your characters look like others, are built like others, and are equipped like others no matter what. Nature of the beast.

Aetrion.8295:

The whole point of busting up the trinity should be to allow people to play how they want.

And you can. Other people are playing healers and such right now.

Aetrion.8295:

Nobody is asking for trinity

Yes they are. They are either just not aware that such is what they are requesting, or are not admitting it.

Aetrion.8295:

people just want other things than maximum damage to have a place in the game too.

Things other than max damage do have a place in the game too. They may not have much of a place in hyper efficient dungeon speed runs, but that is a tiny fraction of the game as a whole.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Centaur_Stance

look. it’s there. a healer. now go have your creamy release so you can prepare yourself for making a thread about your rage at the shiro meta.

Aetrion.8295:

There isn’t even a gear set that gives you Healing, Power, Precision so you could at least get to maybe half the damage of Berzerker.

keepers gear offers power, precision and healing power. But you would still lose a lot of dps. If you go for “support” traits you will lose some more dps, if you use a support rune and sigil too.
Damage mods stack. So its not really a good option to go for a sigil of water instead of sigil of night or sacrifice the +10% from scholars.
You might even be at half the damage, percentage stays similar. But you lose like 7k (?) effective power compared to a fullzerk in fullbuffed team. Which is imho way too much.

Had to look up keeper’s gear.

Zealot does indeed have power/precision/healing, what I meant was healing as primary, but yea, Zealot gear is probably the closest to “reasonable healing gear” you can get with the current system.

There’s the Zealot gear set with Power major and Precision+Healing. It’s craftable too. Keeper is the name of the ascended set version.

Aetrion.8295:

Had to look up keeper’s gear.

Zealot does indeed have power/precision/healing, what I meant was healing as primary, but yea, Zealot gear is probably the closest to “reasonable healing gear” you can get with the current system.

Unfortunately there is currently no Zealot/Keeper ascended trinkets available in game, only armor

choovanski.5462:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Centaur_Stance

look. it’s there. a healer. now go have your creamy release so you can prepare yourself for making a thread about your rage at the shiro meta.

Tablet this,tablet that.

Hylgeriak.8250:

oh yeah, back in those glorious days…“6/8 lf 2 healer” – half an hour later “kitten this kitten, no healers around…I call it a day, cya!”

And this is how I got my Norn rep point! I was very busy…

Hylgeriak.8250:

oh yeah, back in those glorious days…“6/8 lf 2 healer” – half an hour later “kitten this kitten, no healers around…I call it a day, cya!”

Yeah.

Thank god for Hero healers though. With the correct build they probably play much better than most human healers anyway XD

Look why don’t we stop beating around the bush and get straight to the point. Here is what some of the people really want to say:
I want to play a Tank/Healer because I want to feel important. I want the game to come to a complete stop if a Healer/Tank isn’t around. I want to wait seconds instead of min/hours as DPS spam LF Tank/Heal.

Aenaos.8160:

choovanski.5462:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Centaur_Stance

look. it’s there. a healer. now go have your creamy release so you can prepare yourself for making a thread about your rage at the shiro meta.

Tablet this,tablet that.

yup, it’s a dedicated healer that heals with a tablet. seems like what y’all want right? a class designed to heal.

Jockum.1385:

maddoctor.2738:

A character in full zerker gear is also a GW2 Healer if he is using skills that provide healing for his team

never questioned that. But this small amounts of support/heal are not enough to satisfy someone looking for a “classic” supporter. DPS roles in trinity games got the same amount of heal/support a GW2 “zerk healer” offers.

I didn’t know that DPS roles in trinity games can heal the entire party to max health and keep it there. Because a GW2 “zerk healer” can heal a party to maximum hit points and keep it healthy rather easily, provided the party mitigates most of the attacks so the “healer” has to heal as few attacks as possible. I didn’t know that DPS roles in trinity games can mitigate 100% of attacks through reflects and blinds either. No, a DPS role in a trinity game does NOT offer the same support as a GW2 “zerk healer”.

maddoctor.2738:

So why is it that a “Cleric” Guard would feel different enough, but a "Zerker Guard using the same skills is not?

A cleric guard would feel different because he would “move” HP bars, his healing would have some impact. You could give another player regeneration and see some effect. A fullnomad tank also feels different than a fullzerk. Even if you use the same skills and traits.

A full zerk Guardian using the Mace healing symbol combined with Resolve is all a party needs to be >90% (to activate Scholar bonus) on most encounters if they dodge most of the attacks. So the gameplay is exactly the same. In a proficient party that doesn’t take much damage a zerk Healer Guardian will have the same impact as a Cleric Guardian, I guess if the party isn’t good enough a Cleric will indeed be better.

choovanski.5462:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Centaur_Stance

look. it’s there. a healer. now go have your creamy release so you can prepare yourself for making a thread about your rage at the shiro meta.

High level Revenant gameplay

Crossaber.8934:

Matryoshka.1607:

As great as this game is, I’ve just never enjoyed playing a DPS class. Even the classes that are more on the “support” side are still not really enough to quench that thirst to be the one helping your allies.

Is there any possibility at all that they will add healing or tank roles and make combat in the game reflect on that?

PS. Ritualist when?!

The game is great because they don’t have healer and tank.

I prefer they stay as is, though i don’t mind if healing become more appealing, but tank is definite “NO” to me.

Never enjoy any combats that require a tank.

this so much, tank is just sit around in the front and mitigate damage and then healer just heals tank while dps fight, everyone should be viable in a fight and need to watch their resources and battle to their fullest, not just focusing on keeping the tank alive. Never enjoyed WoW because of that monotonous system.

Xbon.9086:

Crossaber.8934:

Matryoshka.1607:

As great as this game is, I’ve just never enjoyed playing a DPS class. Even the classes that are more on the “support” side are still not really enough to quench that thirst to be the one helping your allies.

Is there any possibility at all that they will add healing or tank roles and make combat in the game reflect on that?

PS. Ritualist when?!

The game is great because they don’t have healer and tank.

I prefer they stay as is, though i don’t mind if healing become more appealing, but tank is definite “NO” to me.

Never enjoy any combats that require a tank.

this so much, tank is just sit around in the front and mitigate damage and then healer just heals tank while dps fight, everyone should be viable in a fight and need to watch their resources and battle to their fullest, not just focusing on keeping the tank alive. Never enjoyed WoW because of that monotonous system.

Most good trinity games require the tank to execute good skill rotations to mitigate damage and hold hate/agro, the healer to manage mana and possibly prioritize who gets healed when, and for dps to kill the mob before the healer runs out of resources or the fight goes too long and some kind of enraged mechanic activates.

Substance E.4852:

Xbon.9086:

Crossaber.8934:

Matryoshka.1607:

As great as this game is, I’ve just never enjoyed playing a DPS class. Even the classes that are more on the “support” side are still not really enough to quench that thirst to be the one helping your allies.

Is there any possibility at all that they will add healing or tank roles and make combat in the game reflect on that?

PS. Ritualist when?!

The game is great because they don’t have healer and tank.

I prefer they stay as is, though i don’t mind if healing become more appealing, but tank is definite “NO” to me.

Never enjoy any combats that require a tank.

this so much, tank is just sit around in the front and mitigate damage and then healer just heals tank while dps fight, everyone should be viable in a fight and need to watch their resources and battle to their fullest, not just focusing on keeping the tank alive. Never enjoyed WoW because of that monotonous system.

Most good trinity games require the tank to execute good skill rotations to mitigate damage and hold hate/agro, the healer to manage mana and possibly prioritize who gets healed when, and for dps to kill the mob before the healer runs out of resources or the fight goes too long and some kind of enraged mechanic activates.

considering the playerbase of wow, is it not one of those “good trinity games” because if so, it’s the exact kind of thing I want to avoid, which is why gw2 is perfect.

Substance E.4852:

Xbon.9086:

Crossaber.8934:

Matryoshka.1607:

As great as this game is, I’ve just never enjoyed playing a DPS class. Even the classes that are more on the “support” side are still not really enough to quench that thirst to be the one helping your allies.

Is there any possibility at all that they will add healing or tank roles and make combat in the game reflect on that?

PS. Ritualist when?!

The game is great because they don’t have healer and tank.

I prefer they stay as is, though i don’t mind if healing become more appealing, but tank is definite “NO” to me.

Never enjoy any combats that require a tank.

this so much, tank is just sit around in the front and mitigate damage and then healer just heals tank while dps fight, everyone should be viable in a fight and need to watch their resources and battle to their fullest, not just focusing on keeping the tank alive. Never enjoyed WoW because of that monotonous system.

Most good trinity games require the tank to execute good skill rotations to mitigate damage and hold hate/agro, the healer to manage mana and possibly prioritize who gets healed when, and for dps to kill the mob before the healer runs out of resources or the fight goes too long and some kind of enraged mechanic activates.

So it’s a matter of everyone following set patterns and rotations (or creating macros for them). That’s the boring part of trinity MMORPGs , the best part is fighting the mechanics of the fights, kiting certain 1-shot kill things around, avoiding red circles, killing some adds before they reach the boss etc

Those types of mechanics have very little to do with the trinity (tanking/ healing/ dpsing) yet they are what make raids great, NOT the “follow your rotations” part.

Remove the “extra” / interesting mechanics from raids and they are as boring as any GW2 world boss.

maddoctor.2738:

That’s the boring part of trinity MMORPGs , the best part is fighting the mechanics of the fights, kiting certain 1-shot kill things around, avoiding red circles, killing some adds before they reach the boss etc

That is almost every boss fight in FF14, a typical “trinity” game, so I have no idea where this is coming from other than blind bias.

maddoctor.2738:

Remove the “extra” / interesting mechanics from raids and they are as boring as any GW2 world boss.

This is just kittening stupid. You could easily say "Remove the “extra” / interesting mechanics from ‘Gw2 dungeon/fractal Boss fights’ and they are as boring as any GW2 world boss".

WOW is an enforced Trinity game , in the sense that just about all the challenging content needs a Tank, a Healer and the rest of the group can be anything.
The problem is the vast majority of the player base want to play DPS chars, a smaller number want to play tanks, and a minority want to play healers.
Which means that a lot of time is wasted trying to get a group together thats meets the criteria.
Dead easy to get lots of DPS classes, but hard to get a Healer.
Gets worse though.
In PUGs , if there is a Healer in the group which is pretty well guaranteed, many of the other players think they are indestructible simply because its the Healers job to keep them alive , and this means that if one or more dies, or the group wipes, because of stupid game play, its the Healers fault.
This game is fantastic as it gets away from the forced group composition concept.

The problem is… there are no tanks and healers, because they not only make dungeon runs much more slower, but also they don’t make them easier, as usually longer fights mean that all active defences will deplete and cause DPS do disengage, and there are still attacks that even full tank cannot just stand and take. And still if you want to heal your paper DPS then you will be able to heal like 1 hit (maybe 2) with all your big CDs.
While I don’t think that longer fights mean harder content (it means usually more boring content as longer fight is more hp), but still they mean more chance to fail to dodge, and higher chance that enemies can use “wipe-ing” attack (colosus rumbulus).

And about all these trinity haters. Anet never said they don’t want Tanks and healers, but they don’t want to keep people in these single role/minds.
Unfortunately… the design don’t let tanks / healers compete with DPS in sense of viability.

I would love to have hybrid stats (ok i sacrifice dmg to help healing), but there are not even GOOD hybrid stats available. Ok there is zealot, but now it is almost impossible to get it (as all recipes were event only), not to mention there are no ascended accesories for it.

Substance E.4852:

maddoctor.2738:

That’s the boring part of trinity MMORPGs , the best part is fighting the mechanics of the fights, kiting certain 1-shot kill things around, avoiding red circles, killing some adds before they reach the boss etc

That is almost every boss fight in FF14, a typical “trinity” game, so I have no idea where this is coming from other than blind bias.

maddoctor.2738:

Remove the “extra” / interesting mechanics from raids and they are as boring as any GW2 world boss.

This is just kittening stupid. You could easily say "Remove the “extra” / interesting mechanics from ‘Gw2 dungeon/fractal Boss fights’ and they are as boring as any GW2 world boss".

I meant the extra “raid” mechanics do not REQUIRE a trinity to work. Kiting mobs and prioritizing mobs, moving out of red circles etc have very little to do with healers and tanks. Similar mechanics can be easily used in GW2 (a non trinity game)

The best parts of raids can be used in GW2 too, it doesn’t need a trinity to be interesting. Good fights in trinity games aren’t good because they have the trinity it’s because they have such interesting mechanics (which do not require the trinity to work).

choovanski.5462:

yup, it’s a dedicated healer that heals with a tablet. seems like what y’all want right? a class designed to heal.

It’s not about the green numbers, it’s about the ability to dedicate yourself to a role other than damage. The fact that the game has oodles more mechanics for healing than for any other support function with multiple classes, trait lines and gear sets devoted to it just means that people see that as the most logical choice to make a support character happen.

Aetrion.8295:

choovanski.5462:

yup, it’s a dedicated healer that heals with a tablet. seems like what y’all want right? a class designed to heal.

It’s not about the green numbers, it’s about the ability to dedicate yourself to a role other than damage. The fact that the game has oodles more mechanics for healing than for any other support function with multiple classes, trait lines and gear sets devoted to it just means that people see that as the most logical choice to make a support character happen.

There is no Healer role in the game though. The “roles” are Support, Control and Damage. Support != Healing

If you are a class that cant do damage, no one will want you in their group.
This game doesnt need dedicated Healers.
The only way to require a role for dedicated healers would require nerfing the healing capabilities of all the other classes, and no one will wear that.
Its also an extremely difficult task to rebalance all the classes just to make a minority of the player base happy.

ok. look. do have any idea how stupid you look when you buy a game that is advertised as not having set trinity roles and then go into the forum and asking for tank and healer roles?

like, im not going to go on the Black Desert (another mmo i play) forums and ask for weapon swap. it’s against the design of the game that i ‘bought’, and i bought the game knowing it was intentionally not included.

play the game you want to play dude.

Aetrion.8295:

choovanski.5462:

yup, it’s a dedicated healer that heals with a tablet. seems like what y’all want right? a class designed to heal.

It’s not about the green numbers, it’s about the ability to dedicate yourself to a role other than damage. The fact that the game has oodles more mechanics for healing than for any other support function with multiple classes, trait lines and gear sets devoted to it just means that people see that as the most logical choice to make a support character happen.

no, the most logical choice is you finally understanding how everyone is also a support character in GW2.

choovanski.5462:

ok. look. do have any idea how stupid you look when you buy a game that is advertised as not having set trinity roles and then go into the forum and asking for tank and healer roles?

My money is on “no”.

Substance E.4852:

Xbon.9086:

Crossaber.8934:

Matryoshka.1607:

As great as this game is, I’ve just never enjoyed playing a DPS class. Even the classes that are more on the “support” side are still not really enough to quench that thirst to be the one helping your allies.

Is there any possibility at all that they will add healing or tank roles and make combat in the game reflect on that?

PS. Ritualist when?!

The game is great because they don’t have healer and tank.

I prefer they stay as is, though i don’t mind if healing become more appealing, but tank is definite “NO” to me.

Never enjoy any combats that require a tank.

this so much, tank is just sit around in the front and mitigate damage and then healer just heals tank while dps fight, everyone should be viable in a fight and need to watch their resources and battle to their fullest, not just focusing on keeping the tank alive. Never enjoyed WoW because of that monotonous system.

Most good trinity games require the tank to execute good skill rotations to mitigate damage and hold hate/agro, the healer to manage mana and possibly prioritize who gets healed when, and for dps to kill the mob before the healer runs out of resources or the fight goes too long and some kind of enraged mechanic activates.

I think this is why trinity is bad. What is the fun to play a game that you are required to use a specific rotation to play every single time? Tank rotation, Healer rotation, Dps rotation…. Seriously somebody thought it is fun.

maddoctor.2738:

There is no Healer role in the game though. The “roles” are Support, Control and Damage. Support != Healing

Those are not really roles though because you can do all three on the same character at the same time, and there is nothing you have to sacrifice to be good at any of them.

Nobody recognizes a might share warrior with lots of banners as a particularly helpful character who was built for group support, everyone just thinks any warrior without mightshare sucks and should GTFO. Nobody in the game gets to say “Hey, I built up my warrior to be a tactician who provides the party with lots of useful buffs”, because at no point do you have to make a hard choice about whether or not you want to be that. That’s simply what every single warrior is expected to be.

A role is about being able to dedicate yourself to something. It’s about what makes you different from other people in the game. In GW2 the only really lasting choice you get to make is your class, and essentially no way to distinguish yourself from other characters of that class. There is no reason to ever make two characters of the same class either from a mechanical standpoint, one character can be every possible build instantly.

Like I said, the main reason people look to healing for the support role is because the game has gear, stats, trait lines, weapon sets, runes, sigils and masteries all dedicated to healing. The weight of mechanics for throwing green numbers around is substantial, far more than any other support task, so it only makes sense that that would be the place where dedication to support happens.

Aetrion.8295:

maddoctor.2738:

There is no Healer role in the game though. The “roles” are Support, Control and Damage. Support != Healing

Those are not really roles though because you can do all three on the same character, and there is nothing you have to sacrifice to be good at any of them.

Inhabiting a role is about the ability to dedicate yourself to something. Some people want the ability to define themselves and not just play a character that plays like a kid declaring: “My power is to have all powers”.

yeah… that’s how gw2 works… everyone does all three roles…

Crossaber.8934:

Substance E.4852:

Xbon.9086:

Crossaber.8934:

Matryoshka.1607:

As great as this game is, I’ve just never enjoyed playing a DPS class. Even the classes that are more on the “support” side are still not really enough to quench that thirst to be the one helping your allies.

Is there any possibility at all that they will add healing or tank roles and make combat in the game reflect on that?

PS. Ritualist when?!

The game is great because they don’t have healer and tank.

I prefer they stay as is, though i don’t mind if healing become more appealing, but tank is definite “NO” to me.

Never enjoy any combats that require a tank.

this so much, tank is just sit around in the front and mitigate damage and then healer just heals tank while dps fight, everyone should be viable in a fight and need to watch their resources and battle to their fullest, not just focusing on keeping the tank alive. Never enjoyed WoW because of that monotonous system.

Most good trinity games require the tank to execute good skill rotations to mitigate damage and hold hate/agro, the healer to manage mana and possibly prioritize who gets healed when, and for dps to kill the mob before the healer runs out of resources or the fight goes too long and some kind of enraged mechanic activates.

I think this is why trinity is bad. What is the fun to play a game that you are required to use a specific rotation to play every single time? Tank rotation, Healer rotation, Dps rotation…. Seriously somebody thought it is fun.

As opposed to the very real optimal skill rotations that exist for GW2 speed clears?

Aetrion.8295:

maddoctor.2738:

There is no Healer role in the game though. The “roles” are Support, Control and Damage. Support != Healing

Those are not really roles though because you can do all three on the same character, and there is nothing you have to sacrifice to be good at any of them.

Inhabiting a role is about the ability to dedicate yourself to something. Some people want the ability to define themselves and not just play a character that plays like a kid declaring: “My power is to have all powers”.

Before the Spec patch to be an excellent support Warrior (PS) you had to sacrifice loads of personal DPS to buff your team-mates, now with 3 trait lines it’s not so bad but the point still stands.

In order to be a good Control Thief you have to use specific abilities, off-hand pistol for blinds and headshot, smokescreen etc by sacrificing maybe the highest damage of D/D and offensive utilities.

You can become an excellent dedicated Support Thief by taking Stealth traits, to make your stealth last longer, make allies move faster while in stealth and heal them, while also use all your utilities to provide stealth. You Support the team and allow them to skip large parts of content, while obviously sacrificing everything else in your build.

So you DO make sacrifices to play the role you choose.

Substance E.4852:

Crossaber.8934:

Substance E.4852:

Xbon.9086:

Crossaber.8934:

Matryoshka.1607:

As great as this game is, I’ve just never enjoyed playing a DPS class. Even the classes that are more on the “support” side are still not really enough to quench that thirst to be the one helping your allies.

Is there any possibility at all that they will add healing or tank roles and make combat in the game reflect on that?

PS. Ritualist when?!

The game is great because they don’t have healer and tank.

I prefer they stay as is, though i don’t mind if healing become more appealing, but tank is definite “NO” to me.

Never enjoy any combats that require a tank.

this so much, tank is just sit around in the front and mitigate damage and then healer just heals tank while dps fight, everyone should be viable in a fight and need to watch their resources and battle to their fullest, not just focusing on keeping the tank alive. Never enjoyed WoW because of that monotonous system.

Most good trinity games require the tank to execute good skill rotations to mitigate damage and hold hate/agro, the healer to manage mana and possibly prioritize who gets healed when, and for dps to kill the mob before the healer runs out of resources or the fight goes too long and some kind of enraged mechanic activates.

I think this is why trinity is bad. What is the fun to play a game that you are required to use a specific rotation to play every single time? Tank rotation, Healer rotation, Dps rotation…. Seriously somebody thought it is fun.

As opposed to the very real optimal skill rotations that exist for GW2 speed clears?

find me a game where people doing speed runs don’t try and run optimal rotations. it’s the point of the speedrun, to optimise to cut down on time.

you don’t have to run the meta builds in dungeons, or do the rotations. I don’t because there is no way in hell im buying gear for dungeons (i hardly play them), so ill just take my Hoelbrak runes warrior in and if people don’t like it they get kicked from party. you can run casual and have good runs dude.

Aetrion.8295:

maddoctor.2738:

There is no Healer role in the game though. The “roles” are Support, Control and Damage. Support != Healing

Those are not really roles though because you can do all three on the same character, and there is nothing you have to sacrifice to be good at any of them.

Inhabiting a role is about the ability to dedicate yourself to something. Some people want the ability to define themselves and not just play a character that plays like a kid declaring: “My power is to have all powers”.

The fact is you can do that in GW2, gear up in healing spec and find like minded players, you are good to go.

What GW2 great is they don’t make contents that enforce a party to bring healer and tank role, which imo much flexible than trinity.

Substance E.4852:

Crossaber.8934:

Substance E.4852:

Xbon.9086:

Crossaber.8934:

Matryoshka.1607:

As great as this game is, I’ve just never enjoyed playing a DPS class. Even the classes that are more on the “support” side are still not really enough to quench that thirst to be the one helping your allies.

Is there any possibility at all that they will add healing or tank roles and make combat in the game reflect on that?

PS. Ritualist when?!

The game is great because they don’t have healer and tank.

I prefer they stay as is, though i don’t mind if healing become more appealing, but tank is definite “NO” to me.

Never enjoy any combats that require a tank.

this so much, tank is just sit around in the front and mitigate damage and then healer just heals tank while dps fight, everyone should be viable in a fight and need to watch their resources and battle to their fullest, not just focusing on keeping the tank alive. Never enjoyed WoW because of that monotonous system.

Most good trinity games require the tank to execute good skill rotations to mitigate damage and hold hate/agro, the healer to manage mana and possibly prioritize who gets healed when, and for dps to kill the mob before the healer runs out of resources or the fight goes too long and some kind of enraged mechanic activates.

I think this is why trinity is bad. What is the fun to play a game that you are required to use a specific rotation to play every single time? Tank rotation, Healer rotation, Dps rotation…. Seriously somebody thought it is fun.

As opposed to the very real optimal skill rotations that exist for GW2 speed clears?

It is bad because you want a seat in speed run as a healer, not because you cannot play as a healer. The only viable solution is don’t join speed run, find and gather your trinity buddy and do trinity style speed run. Make guild for it, make it a viable speed run option and show us. Build it into an alternative play style and i think many like minded player will join you.

Good luck, god speed!

maddoctor.2738:

In order to be a good Control Thief you have to use specific abilities, off-hand pistol for blinds and headshot, smokescreen etc by sacrificing maybe the highest damage of D/D and offensive utilities.

You’re never actually a control thief though. There is no reason to ever make a second thief character to be a damage thief because your first thief is a control thief. You can switch between them in seconds.

In the context of your character filling a certain role and not just your current skill and weapon selection filling a certain role this game simply doesn’t deliver. It just does not allow you to put any long term dedication into what you want to be best at.

Since warriors and guardians,are only class that could be tank,id like to see one spell,just one,that makes target attack you.It doesn’t have to be like constant aggro,but 10-15 sec cd,so you can save your mate’s kitten by taking aggro when needed.

I had guardian,and i decide to do support in dung’s.I bought healing gear,and stacked as much healing as i can.I was solid,couldn’t die that fast,but healing was soo sad,that i decide to delete guardian and level Elementalist.I had tons of healing power,and yet i couldnt see hp going up when i healed in pve.Lets not even talk about pvp,where your hp goes from 100 % to 0 in sec’s.

Crossaber.8934:

Substance E.4852:

Crossaber.8934:

Substance E.4852:

Xbon.9086:

Crossaber.8934:

Matryoshka.1607:

As great as this game is, I’ve just never enjoyed playing a DPS class. Even the classes that are more on the “support” side are still not really enough to quench that thirst to be the one helping your allies.

Is there any possibility at all that they will add healing or tank roles and make combat in the game reflect on that?

PS. Ritualist when?!

The game is great because they don’t have healer and tank.

I prefer they stay as is, though i don’t mind if healing become more appealing, but tank is definite “NO” to me.

Never enjoy any combats that require a tank.

this so much, tank is just sit around in the front and mitigate damage and then healer just heals tank while dps fight, everyone should be viable in a fight and need to watch their resources and battle to their fullest, not just focusing on keeping the tank alive. Never enjoyed WoW because of that monotonous system.

Most good trinity games require the tank to execute good skill rotations to mitigate damage and hold hate/agro, the healer to manage mana and possibly prioritize who gets healed when, and for dps to kill the mob before the healer runs out of resources or the fight goes too long and some kind of enraged mechanic activates.

I think this is why trinity is bad. What is the fun to play a game that you are required to use a specific rotation to play every single time? Tank rotation, Healer rotation, Dps rotation…. Seriously somebody thought it is fun.

As opposed to the very real optimal skill rotations that exist for GW2 speed clears?

It is bad because you want a seat in speed run as a healer, not because you cannot play as a healer. The only viable solution is don’t join speed run, find and gather your trinity buddy and do trinity style speed run. Make guild for it, make it a viable speed run option and show us. Build it into an alternative play style and i think many like minded player will join you.

Good luck, god speed!

When have I ever said I wanted to play healer? Seriously, quote the post if you can and aren’t just full of it in a weak attempt at condescension.

choovanski.5462:

Substance E.4852:

Crossaber.8934:

Substance E.4852:

Xbon.9086:

Crossaber.8934:

Matryoshka.1607:

As great as this game is, I’ve just never enjoyed playing a DPS class. Even the classes that are more on the “support” side are still not really enough to quench that thirst to be the one helping your allies.

Is there any possibility at all that they will add healing or tank roles and make combat in the game reflect on that?

PS. Ritualist when?!

The game is great because they don’t have healer and tank.

I prefer they stay as is, though i don’t mind if healing become more appealing, but tank is definite “NO” to me.

Never enjoy any combats that require a tank.

this so much, tank is just sit around in the front and mitigate damage and then healer just heals tank while dps fight, everyone should be viable in a fight and need to watch their resources and battle to their fullest, not just focusing on keeping the tank alive. Never enjoyed WoW because of that monotonous system.

Most good trinity games require the tank to execute good skill rotations to mitigate damage and hold hate/agro, the healer to manage mana and possibly prioritize who gets healed when, and for dps to kill the mob before the healer runs out of resources or the fight goes too long and some kind of enraged mechanic activates.

I think this is why trinity is bad. What is the fun to play a game that you are required to use a specific rotation to play every single time? Tank rotation, Healer rotation, Dps rotation…. Seriously somebody thought it is fun.

As opposed to the very real optimal skill rotations that exist for GW2 speed clears?

find me a game where people doing speed runs don’t try and run optimal rotations. it’s the point of the speedrun, to optimise to cut down on time.

I pointed out that GW2 utilizes rotations just as much as any other game does in situations where pristine performance is required.

If you are firing off random skills whenever, your speed clear is going to fail on the “speed” aspect just as your trinity raid run will fail because the tank lost hate or the healer burned through their mana too quickly.

This is a fact.

Guild wars 2 isn’t any less restrictive than trinity games in many aspects if you actually care about performance.

That’s the point where all these anti-trinity arguments fall to pieces. People who care about top performance have gear, class and build requirements anyways, having a healer requirement wouldn’t change anything for how they do things because all a healer is is a build, class and gear.

That’s exactly why in order to actually make the game as free as possible the ideal group should be a mixed group. You should be able to run the content with any comp, but the best compositions should be as diverse as possible so that no character is ever categorically excluded from being part of a best comp group.

What the game should be is:

• Make any character you want
• Look for a group that is best comp when it includes your character
• If you can’t find that you can still do the content with other people who couldn’t find the best partners for their character.

What the game currently is:

• If you roll the wrong class or gear you cannot ever be best comp
• If you are the right class, look for a group that is best comp.
• If you are not the right class there is no point in even looking for the best possible group mates

Substance E.4852:

maddoctor.2738:

That’s the boring part of trinity MMORPGs , the best part is fighting the mechanics of the fights, kiting certain 1-shot kill things around, avoiding red circles, killing some adds before they reach the boss etc

That is almost every boss fight in FF14, a typical “trinity” game, so I have no idea where this is coming from other than blind bias.

maddoctor.2738:

Remove the “extra” / interesting mechanics from raids and they are as boring as any GW2 world boss.

This is just kittening stupid. You could easily say "Remove the “extra” / interesting mechanics from ‘Gw2 dungeon/fractal Boss fights’ and they are as boring as any GW2 world boss".

GW2 world bosses are boring because you engage them with a 50+ man zerg every time.
You can’t even see what’s going on – you can’t see the boss – you can’t see your character 90% of the times.

That’s why GW2 world bosses are terrible. I don’t even know what it feels like to fight them without 30-50+ other players next to me because I never got the chance.

Harper.4173:

Substance E.4852:

maddoctor.2738:

That’s the boring part of trinity MMORPGs , the best part is fighting the mechanics of the fights, kiting certain 1-shot kill things around, avoiding red circles, killing some adds before they reach the boss etc

That is almost every boss fight in FF14, a typical “trinity” game, so I have no idea where this is coming from other than blind bias.

maddoctor.2738:

Remove the “extra” / interesting mechanics from raids and they are as boring as any GW2 world boss.

This is just kittening stupid. You could easily say "Remove the “extra” / interesting mechanics from ‘Gw2 dungeon/fractal Boss fights’ and they are as boring as any GW2 world boss".

GW2 world bosses are boring because you engage them with a 50+ man zerg every time.
You can’t even see what’s going on – you can’t see the boss – you can’t see your character 90% of the times.

That’s why GW2 world bosses are terrible. I don’t even know what it feels like to fight them without 30-50+ other players next to me because I never got the chance.

I have soloed Inquest Golem Mark II before we have scheduled world boss, it was a long and boring battle. Its nice tried once…..

Aetrion.8295:

Those are not really roles though because you can do all three on the same character at the same time, and there is nothing you have to sacrifice to be good at any of them.

And this is how the game was designed and intended. You do all of it at the same time. You don’t get to be a “special snowflake” and do just one role while others have to pick up the other bits you don’t want to do – in GW2 you have to be self-reliant and capable of doing all 3 roles in one. it’s the reason we have a mandatory healing skill – haven’t you noticed that?.

Nobody recognizes a might share warrior with lots of banners as a particularly helpful character who was built for group support, everyone just thinks any warrior without mightshare sucks and should GTFO.

Yes – because meta players play meta builds – you want to run as a warrior in meta groups? You run the meta warrior build or you don’t run with the meta groups.
The warrior with lots of banners and support is recognized as a helpful character in non-meta groups where people “play how I want” and are free to do whatever they want.

Nobody in the game gets to say “Hey, I built up my warrior to be a tactician who provides the party with lots of useful buffs”, because at no point do you have to make a hard choice about whether or not you want to be that. That’s simply what every single warrior is expected to be.

Because again – as I told you above- the game doesn’t want you to spec very deep and heavily into one role/thing. And nobody is expecting anything of you except in meta groups. It’s really simple :

1.Meta group – you play the meta build for your class.
2.Non-meta group – you play whatever build you want for your class.

A role is about being able to dedicate yourself to something. It’s about what makes you different from other people in the game. In GW2 the only really lasting choice you get to make is your class, and essentially no way to distinguish yourself from other characters of that class. There is no reason to ever make two characters of the same class either from a mechanical standpoint, one character can be every possible build instantly.

And Guild Wars 2 doesn’t want people having hard roles – being able to do one thing really really well and none of the other things at all.
The fact that one character can easily switch to any possible build instantly is intended and is what makes this game a great game.
It’s a game where you don’t have to re-roll 20 alts for each type of build you class can do. You can switch and adapt on the go if you want to. That’s what’s great about Gw2.

Like I said, the main reason people look to healing for the support role is because the game has gear, stats, trait lines, weapon sets, runes, sigils and masteries all dedicated to healing. The weight of mechanics for throwing green numbers around is substantial, far more than any other support task, so it only makes sense that that would be the place where dedication to support happens.

You can support via a number of means including healing. What you can’t and Anet shouldn’t allow you to do is to JUST HEAL.
What you want is to take away the initial vision of the developers where each character is stand-alone and self-sufficient and has to manage damage, tanking, cc and healing BY HIMSELF and make it so you only have to manage one role – which is absurd and goes against this game’s core design principles.

If they wanted us to be “pure healers” why didn’t they introduce let’s say one weapon set for guardian that deals no damage and only heals?

You are trying to make the game not only into what it isn’t but into something it was never intended to be.

Aetrion.8295:

maddoctor.2738:

In order to be a good Control Thief you have to use specific abilities, off-hand pistol for blinds and headshot, smokescreen etc by sacrificing maybe the highest damage of D/D and offensive utilities.

You’re never actually a control thief though. There is no reason to ever make a second thief character to be a damage thief because your first thief is a control thief. You can switch between them in seconds.

In the context of your character filling a certain role and not just your current skill and weapon selection filling a certain role this game simply doesn’t deliver. It just does not allow you to put any long term dedication into what you want to be best at.

This is what makes the game great- the ability to quickly change and adapt.
It is ABSURD at least the way I see it to have to have 2-3-4 alts each one with a different build.

The facts that you can change gear, traits and skills easily and quickly in this game all point to the core concept that this game was intended to be a flexible one – where you aren’t locked into one build and have to re-roll your character if you want to play another.

You can’t put “long term dedication” into a role because the way the game was thought up you might want to be X role in some encounter but Y role in the encounter immediately following.

Aetrion.8295:

Guild wars 2 isn’t any less restrictive than trinity games in many aspects if you actually care about performance.

That’s the point where all these anti-trinity arguments fall to pieces. People who care about top performance have gear, class and build requirements anyways, having a healer requirement wouldn’t change anything for how they do things because all a healer is is a build, class and gear.

That’s exactly why in order to actually make the game as free as possible the ideal group should be a mixed group. You should be able to run the content with any comp, but the best compositions should be as diverse as possible so that no character is ever categorically excluded from being part of a best comp group.

What the game should be is:

• Make any character you want
• Look for a group that is best comp when it includes your character
• If you can’t find that you can still do the content with other people who couldn’t find the best partners for their character.

What the game currently is:

• If you roll the wrong class or gear you cannot ever be best comp
• If you are the right class, look for a group that is best comp.
• If you are not the right class there is no point in even looking for the best possible group mates

This is absurd and wrong.
People who have top-tier performance runs have requirements – sure but the game doesn’t. People do.
If some people want to play a certain way they are allowed to – the game is free and open because you can complete content without any of those requirements.
Just because some people play a certain way doesn’t mean you have to play with them.

If you change the game and force “mixed” groups (or any form of group composition) then really you’ve made the game less free since RIGHT NOW IN GW2 YOU CAN COMPLETE ANY CONTENT WITH ANY CLASSES.

You should be able to run the content with any comp, but the best compositions should be as diverse as possible so that no character is ever categorically excluded from being part of a best comp group.

I’ll address this here since it’s particularly absurd.

The concept of “best composition” implies that out of a number of possible compositions you have one that’s better than the other.
What’s a party composition? Well it’s a choice of a set number of professions out of a larger pool of professions.

So basically as long as the professions are different to each other ( not identical) a best composition will exist and it will exclude certain professions.

If this were not the case then all compositions would be identical(because all professions would be identical) and thus the concept of “best composition” would not exist.

So what you asked for defies logic.

You guys still answer this ?

This is pointless, Aetrion doesn’t understand the game design used for this game, and want to put something that goes against the said game design.

Plus, he have absolutely no clue on how this work, since he doesn’t want to recognise the fact that you can complete any content in this game with any comp/gear. And he doesn’t understand the difference between optimal/viable, wich is something you can not go against in any case.

I’m sure it is possible to play without a healer or tank in a classic trinity MMO. Its just complicated, dangerous, slow – a bad choice. But it is sometimes possible so it is viable? ….
The difference between an optimal build and a “viable” one should be minimal. Which is not the case when you’re talking about a GW2 cleric in a PUG. No one would care, except people going for speedrecords, if those builds were really viable. They are not on the same level as good builds. And thats the problem. Even PUGs which usually don’t care too much about a perfekt run are looking for meta-zerks. These groups are usually not even close to speedruns, most of them only want to finish the dungeon in a reasonable time. Such a group would accept an ele healer, necro healer or monk healer in GW1. Because they are nearly as good as the optimal build and most players don’t know the optimal build anyway. In GW2 they might accept a second warrior instead of a second ele. But they won’t accept a cleric-guard. So: cleric is not a reasonable choice for most groups. It’s a funbuild.
It doesn’t matter what is theoretical possible. Even a full necro team is possible. Question is: is it a good choice? Afaik a guard is not everywhere optimal. But a guard is in all groups welcome, because he is a good choice. A speedrecord-run might replace him, a PUG won’t – they are not playing optimal.

maddoctor.2738:

I didn’t know that DPS roles in trinity games can mitigate 100% of attacks through reflects and blinds either. No, a DPS role in a trinity game does NOT offer the same support as a GW2 “zerk healer”.

Have a look at GW1. It is possible to avoid a lot of the damage so a small amount of healing is enough. You can blind, cripple, block, interupt etc. – similar to GW2. The small amount of healing which is still needed can be placed on players which do also a good amount of damage. So there is sometimes no classic fullhealer. In a discordway for example. (and, ofc, no tank)
And no, playing a fullzerk ele or guard causes a different feeling than playing a supporter/healer in a trinity game or GW1. Even those discordhealers cause a more “healerish” feeeling. And thats what leaves people who like playing supporters unsatisfied. GW2 offers nothing for them. My GW1 warrior can bring more support as a full-dps char, than my GW2 guard can. If I play a useful build, not a funbuild.
—>people who want to play a supporter should buy another game. People who don’t like “fullzerk meta” should buy another game. GW2 won’t change. It has a hack’n slay combat system – and there are even hack’n slays which offer more supportive roles.

In a proficient party that doesn’t take much damage a zerk Healer Guardian will have the same impact as a Cleric Guardian, I guess if the party isn’t good enough a Cleric will indeed be better.

Most bad groups lack dps and need more damage to pass through dps checks or kill bosses before they wipe the team. A no damage build like cleric is a bad choice if your group lacks dps. A bit more defensive might be useful, but not too much as clerics would offer.

Kordash.2197:

Aetrion … doesn’t understand the difference between optimal/viable

While I find myself in disagreement with Aetrion on several points, this accusation is incorrect. S/he does understand what optimal means, but wants a different combination of gear and build choices to be optimal than is currently the case.