Guild Wars 2

I want to discuss here options and concepts, on how ANet can improve and rework the Health System of GW2 properly, so that it is after the changes more in line with the current balance of Skills, Traits and the Class Mechanics.

Currently is GW2 still using it’s oudated Release Day Design, which is essentially this:

9 Classes = 3 Class Types split up into Scholar, Adventurer and Soldier Type due to the 3 Armor Types the game also has, which decide over it, how much “Base Health a Class will have at Max Level”, without including the improvements from the Stat Boosts you get currently from Gear.

This old system is designed around a game state where all the power creep, the condition changes, the additional boons and conditions from the last years, as also the Elite Specializations weren’t part of this Health System.
Too much has changed in the game in the last years, than to keep on using this outdated 2012er Health System.

Personally I strongly favor the concept idea of making Game Balance for GW2 alot easier and also alot lesser overenriched/complex and more multi character friendly again like GW1 was – by removing the obsolete pointless design of Gear Stats, so that Gear essentially becomes again what it was like in GW1 and how it should be – fashion only, which shouldn’t decide over it, if you win or lose a battle due to its provided Stats for your Attributes.
However, currently it is so, that the Stats from your Gear provide like over 50% of your final Max Health due to Vitality playing in this a huge role…

This automatically means, if Anet should ever have the guts to rebalance the Game with the help of a Health System Redesign and removes like I propose under my concept Gear Stats, that the Health System needs a redesign, if we don’t get more Health anymore from Vitality of our Gear that we have equipped.

I find it is the best for GW2, if finally all Classes would get individually balanced in their Max Health.

So how can it work alternatively?

The most simplest and better solved more individual way of Class Balancing in regard of Health Values would be following:

Every Character should receive through their Character Progression of raising their Levels automatically more Max Health. – so far, so good and so far are we already now as well.
The difference now should be, that each Class should receive individually strong more Max Health per Level Up and additionally on top of that should each Class have for all Attributes individually strong “Efficiency Multiplicators” which can help in better defining the strengths and weaknesses of all Classes.

Example:

A Warrior should have a stronger Vitality Efficiency, than for example now a Mesmer.
While a Warrior could have an Vitality Efficiency of 2,25, would have a Mesmer one of only 1,75 instead.
Means, if a Warrior Player puts Attribute Points into his Vitality, the Effect of his Vitality Value should be by the factor of 2,25 more effectful, than the Mesmer’s one of just only 1,75.

A Warrior with 1000 Vitality Points and an Efficiency Factor of 2,25 would have 225% of the effect from it’s Vitality Points, while a Mesmer would have only 175%.

Let’s say every Vitality Point increases your Maximum Health by base +20 HP.
A Warrior with his 225% Efficiency in Vitality would receive instead then 45 HP per Vitality Point.
A Mesmer instead would get just 35.
So a Warrior would have with this System *1000 Points then 45000 HP, while a Mesmer would have 35000 HP under this simple math example.

What do you guys think of GW2s outdated Health System?
Would really interest me to see other opinions, because currently I feel like I’m here in the forums most likely a lone person with the opinion, that the Health System needs a change under the current Game Balance.

Edit: Updated sentences after rereading them for better understanding xD

How about no, like most of your other ideas? The game is balanced around the current values and overhauling anything to shape up a different system is more complex than making simple value changes to a single aspect of the game.

I don’t think that turning from a 3 Type Base Health System to a Class Individual Attribute Efficiency System that removes tons of overcomplex Mechanics, like obsolete Gear Stats can be anyhow at all “more complex”, than what we have now with a system, that pidgeonholes Classes just into 3 Types and lets certain Classes suffer for being put together with Class X in the same Class Type, when basically all Classes would profitate much more from it, when they would get balanced more individually.

Individuality is it, that creates Balance and Diversity, not stiff unflexible structures that force certain values upon a Class, that are under the whole powercreep of the game lately in most cases either way too low or way too high for them.

PS:
Also with a more individualized Efficiency System can you improve much better the individual Strenghs and Weaknesses of each Class better imo

Hello !

I didn’t understand all that you said, but I’m a bit tired. I therefore apologize for my questions :

• You want to remove gear stats, but you’re also talking about points set in an attribute. How ? Like GW1 old system or GW2 old traits system ? (without the trait thing attached to it of course !)
• Do you think your system would work in a similar fashion with other attributes ?
• I am afraid this could lead to professions being more stereotypical : with a stats profile more set to profession than it currently is, I fear that we’ll tend to one single build fit for a profession. What do you think about that ?

I agree on the fact that the base health system feels now a bit awkward. Even if I understand the concept, the normalization of any other attribute (excepted armor, for close reasons) leads to the health pool feels off.
Anyway, from a PvE point of view, I’m not sure it’ll be such a big change considering the huge gap between PC and mobs, but that’s another topic !

Orpheal.8263:

What do you guys think of GW2s outdated Health System?

While it may be outdated, it certainly sucks a lot less than your idea.

Orpheal.8263:

Means, if a Warrior Player puts Attribute Points into his Vitality, the Effect of his Vitality Value should be by the factor of 2,25 more effectful, than the Mesmer’s one of just only 1,75.

No thanks, that’s unfair. If Vitality were less valuable on some professions it would be a waste of points for them. Most people already avoid defesive stats, this would make the dps meta even more popular.

Not sure it would require to be a huge rework for a little payoff i think and i dont know how many attribute gw1 had but if we take all the stats in gw2… thats quite a number. Also non other than the vitality sets really affect the hp values. In general i find each class having a set hp value easy to balance and work around as hp isnt usually the cause of many problems…. well except for power necro.

No problem Thomas, no problem, I also don’t always understand everything, but that lies in the nature of me being no native English Speaker ^^

To your questions:

1) Yes, I would like to see Gear Stats getting removed.
They make GW2 in many aspects unflexible and more overcomplex than needed.
additionally would help their removal in making Classes through a new Health System easier to balance, if that new System relies on Class individual Efficiency Factors instead of on stiff unflexible Class Types that aren’t good to make each Classes individual strenths and weaknesses come up better in the Game.

In GW1 we had Attributes where you kinda put points directly into the Trait Lines and all of your Skills became automatically more powerful, so higher the points were in the increased Attribute.
Basically was GW1s Attribute System very similar to GW2s Trait System, just with the difference, that we have now in GW2 additionally to the Skilsl also passive effects (the Traits) that we unlock through adding more points into the Traitline, which was attributs in GW1.

Classical MMORPGs handle Stats basically like GW1 handled Attributes.
You rise a Level up, you gain Stat Points, and these you you then putthen individually as you like into your Attributes to make your Character stronger, together with some kind of option to reset everything.
GW1 had that too – pay 500 Gold (in GW1 was this nothing, very cheap) and you were able to reset your Setting so that you became eble to reallocate your points again to change your build.

The same thign do we have with Traits in GW2. We can reset them anytime we want out of combat.
Exactly the same way do I want, that this should get handled so with Stats as well.

You rise a Level Up, and you gain Stat Points then, which you can put in any Stat as you wish, like Power, Vitality, Precision, Toughness ect.
And if you think now, you want to reset that, then you should be able to do so anytime you want out of combat for some kind of small fee by talking to a NPC, which can reset for you your Stat Build.
With gaining Stats like this would it not be needed anymore to bind Stats to Gear and gear would be again like it was in GW2 – pure fashion.
—-

2) Yes, my proposed Efficiency Factor System naturally can work like this with all Stats.
Same as like a Warrior can have its own individual Vitality Efficiency Facor, as same as much will he have its own individual Power or Toughness Efficiency Factor.
Thats it why I say, that this kind of rebalanced system is much better and efficient in making all Strengths and Weaknesses of a each individual Class clearer for everyone.
Combine this then with the Trait System and it allows Anet also through Traits to make all Classes for specific Stats more effective, what is something, that Traits currently can’t/don’t do at all, as there could exist then Traits, which change the Efficiency Factors of specific Stats, or Skills and Upgrades could have an effect on that too.
—-

3) Your last point could be true, but also could not be that way. It depends upon what Anet does with the follow up rebalance of Skills, Traits and Upgrades.
However – it is right that making Strengths and Weaknesses of each individual Class clearer leads naturally also into stronger defined “Roles” for each Class and personally I’m always for stronger defined Class Roles, than lettign Classes become able to do too much things same as effectively as like all other Classes, because of there being no clear roles defined at all – we still play a MMO*R*PG, where each Class should have also defined roles to play in this game.
I don’t think that we will tend to single builds for Classes with Efficiency Factors, there have still Skills, Traits, Upgrades and now as well Elite Specializations to say a word or two as well, that are there to deliver build diversity to this game, which surely won’t be reduced suddenly to 1, just only due to Gear Stats being removed and exchanged to class individual Efficiency Factors for the Attributes.

Legendaries would become also cheaper, because they wouldn’t have their Stat Change function anymore needed to make them this way artificially extra special.
That function could then be replaced with somethign else maybe to make them visually extra special – Unlockings of Skill Skins instead to be able to change the look of your Skills.

@ Mea:

What would be “unfair” about such a system, when clearly all Classes would have their very individual Strengths and Weaknesses as well in their Stats?
Don’t just reduce the concept down to only Vitality, because i used it just for the example.

While said Warrior could have its Strenths in Vitality over for example an Mesmer
The same mesmer could have there fore instead it’s strenghts compared to the Warrior in Precision or in Expertise or whatever else for an Attribute.
That has Anet to decide in the end, if they should make usage of that system.

Sorry, I don’t understand what exactly would be about this system unfair, when everyone would have their very own individual pros and cons and that on all Attributes. Please explain

@ zealex: GW1 compared to GW2 had no classical attributes (Stats) like Power, Vitality ect. at all.
In GW1 worked the Traitlines basically as “Stats” which you increased with the points you received and by putign points into them became automatically all skills stronger that belonged to that Attribute.

As an Elementalist in GW1 you basically were able to choose between 5 Attributes
Fire Magic, Earth Magic, Water Magic, Air Magic and Ether Attunement.
As said, no MMORPG classical Stats, all that was important there was that you raised the points in the Attributes you planned to use the most, so that you made your Skisl from the Attribute Line more powerful, with the maximum being to put into a Line around 20 or 21 if I remember right with the help of your equipment. Without equipment maximum points was like 16 or so with lvl 20 you were able to distribute into an Attribute Line, which in case of GW2 is now called a Traitline

With GW2 we would have to recosinder undr my system just only Power, Vitality, Toughness, Precision, Expertise, Healing Power ect. with having individual Efficiency Factors, which is also why I want them to go over to Dual Effects to reduce the amount of Stats, that need to be considered for this.
Because for example Vitality and Healing Power would work perfectly well together as just 1 Dual Effect Attribute.

nsleep.7839:

How about no, like most of your other ideas? The game is balanced around the current values and overhauling anything to shape up a different system is more complex than making simple value changes to a single aspect of the game.

We’ve seen how many balance passes now? Has the games balance ever become more balanced, has build diversity ever gone up? The answer is no, to both. Clearly there is a problem with the system that adjusting numbers cannot fix.

I don’t necessarily think the OPs idea will do thie trick, but something needs to be done besides the same old ineffectual balance passes.

Conncept.7638:

We’ve seen how many balance passes now? Has the games balance ever become more balanced, has build diversity ever gone up? The answer is no, to both. Clearly there is a problem with the system that adjusting numbers cannot fix.

I don’t necessarily think the OPs idea will do thie trick, but something needs to be done besides the same old ineffectual balance passes.

You ignore the elephant in the room: balancing for the three game modes must finally be separated. Completely. As long as most stuff applies to all of PvP, WvW and PvE, there will always be massive issues.

CptAurellian.9537:

Conncept.7638:

We’ve seen how many balance passes now? Has the games balance ever become more balanced, has build diversity ever gone up? The answer is no, to both. Clearly there is a problem with the system that adjusting numbers cannot fix.

I don’t necessarily think the OPs idea will do thie trick, but something needs to be done besides the same old ineffectual balance passes.

You ignore the elephant in the room: balancing for the three game modes must finally be separated. Completely. As long as most stuff applies to all of PvP, WvW and PvE, there will always be massive issues.

I didn’t even bring that issue up? Are you just a naturally antagonistic person?

But in either case, you are incorrect, with how PvE currently is, yes, but with the proper changes to PvE, one could make the same skills and scaling which are effectual against players have the same level of efficacy in PvE. And it would make PvE significantly more skilled, deep, and enjoyable to boot.

I don’t agree with the OP’s analysis of the issue.

Sure, GW2’s application of stats (like that of every other MMO) is outdated. But the thing is: it works. People play the game and it’s too easy for some, too hard for others. Overhauling the stat system won’t change that significantly, despite the vast amount of work it would require: there will still be people who find it too easy, who find it too hard.

Accordingly, before even contemplating an overhaul of this magnitude, I would want to be absolutely sure that (a) things are so broken now that they can’t be fixed and (b) that the new system isn’t going to have its own fundamental flaws. I don’t think that either conditional applies in this case.

What if we just said that everyone gets 15,000 HP at Lv.80 and then the only real adjustment is armor type (Light, Medium, or Heavy) and stat spreads?

It worked pretty well in GW1 when ~500 was max and your only real adjustments were from what level (and weight) of armor you used and how many runes you had. In theory it would work about as well here, where it would reinforce investing in certain stats to create a build over trying to compensate for the absence of them for several professions as is presently the case.

Orpheal.8263:

1) Yes, I would like to see Gear Stats getting removed.

They make GW2 in many aspects unflexible and more overcomplex than needed.
additionally would help their removal in making Classes through a new Health System easier to balance, if that new System relies on Class individual Efficiency Factors instead of on stiff unflexible Class Types that aren’t good to make each Classes individual strenths and weaknesses come up better in the Game.

While I very much preferred GW attribute system to GW2’s stats-on-gear, this is a ship that’s sailed. Removing stats from gear would anger almost anyone who spent time, effort and/or gold to gear up in Ascended for either PvE or WvW. It would also bottom out the economy, making the mats used in crafting gear nearly (if not completely) worthless.

The economy issue could be obviated by also changing the skins system to include a plethora of cosmetic options that can only be gained by crafting which uses similar types and amounts of materials. The ripple downside of that would be the time it takes ANet to generate armor skins, and possible loss of revenue if weapon skins are to be crafted rather than bought via tickets from gamble boxes.

I’m afraid that major changes to how GW2 does stats is probably going to be prohibitively costly in developer effort, lost goodwill from a lot of players and lost revenue.

I suspect this is not really possible. The changes you propose are dependent on the Dev’s being able to make broad changes across the board and given all the changes that have been added over the years and the changes in staff, I kind of doubt it can be done without absolutely huge costs. Many of the balance changes happening 4 and a half years later are not a basic change but instead a buffing or usual nerfing of skills, weapons etc.
If a balance pass is in the near future, wouldn’t they both have to happen at the same time. Wont you get a massive push back from the medium and light armor wearers because I don’t think they should have the same vitality as heavy armor wearers?
I like the basic idea but I think the time, effort and money required to do it makes it cost prohibitive.

Conncept.7638:

I didn’t even bring that issue up? Are you just a naturally antagonistic person?

But in either case, you are incorrect, with how PvE currently is, yes, but with the proper changes to PvE, one could make the same skills and scaling which are effectual against players have the same level of efficacy in PvE. And it would make PvE significantly more skilled, deep, and enjoyable to boot.

My post wasn’t meant as an attack, rather as an extension. However, if those changes to PvE, which you have in mind, follow the direction I expect from the wording, they would most likely lead to one of the biggest kittenstorms in the history of MMOs.

Why do so many people feel the need to make drastic changes to a game they play? This game is what it is. The need for continued balancing will always be there, within the system the developers have created.

You say things like,

“how ANet can improve and rework the Health System of GW2 properly”

Properly? Really? There is a proper and improper health system now?

And you say,

“Personally I strongly favor the concept idea of making Game Balance for GW2 alot easier and also alot lesser overenriched/complex and more multi character friendly again like GW1 was by removing the obsolete pointless design of Gear Stat”

So dramatic … Gear stats are not “obsolete pointless design”. I personally don’t give a rats kitten what you strongly favor. This is GW2, not GW1. They are different games.

You act as though Anet never put any thought whatsoever into their system. They just went with whatever whim came over them at the time. Simply put, you do not know the game better than they do.

Myself and many people play this game because we like it. If and when the developers make big changes then so be it. I trust them. It is their game after all. They, more than anyone else, want it to succeed.

Sounds like an expansion or two sized overhaul for the sake of having an overhaul.