Guild Wars 2

FirebrandFrog.7603:

Unloveableone.6082:

FirebrandFrog.7603:

Except the Megaservers aren’t ridiculously priced and bite older players who don’t want to buy the core game twice in the butt.

Try again.

You are literally not even kittening buying it.
It just comes as a bonus for people that don’t have it.
AGAIN.
YOU
ARE
NOT
BUYING
IT

kitten

Nice, making base assumptions without any rhyme or reason to it! 10 points to Gryffindor!

I will buy it. When the price matches the contents it provides, and when it isn’t intrinsically tied to the core game as a bundle without also offering options for players who already own the core game (aka everyone who posts in these forums).

$50 is too much for what we’ve seen, and ANet likes to overhype stuff that either isn’t satisfactory or isn’t what it seems.

Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice…

You are paying literally nothing extra because of the inclusion of the base game. The base game is included because, SURPRISE, you need the base game to play an expansion. Anet also has an option for players who already have the core game. It’s the same option given to players who dont have any account. It’s not hard to understand, whether or not you have the core game, you’re paying $50.

Secondly, no one’s holding a kitten gun to your head and saying “buy it now.” By all means sit and wait to see what else comes. Just dont act foolish by coming on the forums and clamor “woe is me, $50 for an expac that isnt fully revealed is too much” and think Anet’s going to change the price because of some crying.

Most Players: We want changes! We want changes!

:: Game changes ::

Some Players: That’s not the change I wanted. I’m done with this game.

FirebrandFrog.7603:

Except the Megaservers aren’t ridiculously priced and bite older players who don’t want to buy the core game twice in the butt.

Try again.

If you think you are buying it twice, do some math.

First Step:

Take what you payed when you originally bought the game. Now add to that number the standard price for HoT which is 50. Write that number down.

Second Step:

Take what you payed when you originally bought the game. Now times that by 2. Now add the standard price for HoT which is 50. Write that number down.

Third Step:

Look at those numbers. If the Second number is greater than the first you did not buy it twice.

I feel i have a rather rational head on my shoulders in reguard to this whole mess so I’ll speculate a bit…

Anet isnt going to change the prices or the contents of the bundle. At best, they’ll announce more about the extent of the content in the expansion to better illustrate the scope of what you’ll be getting. Later on as we near the release date, there might be a couple sales on character slots or bag upgrades but ultimately things will stay the same and players will shift fire to gameplay and balance. Dont expect any sales for the expansion any time soon, at the least, 8 months, and thats due to the expansion selling reasonably well. People say they protest now but come closer to launch that tune will silently change.

Vayne.8563:

Linnael.1069:

Vayne.8563:

Linnael.1069:

Unloveableone.6082:

FirebrandFrog.7603:

Except the Megaservers aren’t ridiculously priced and bite older players who don’t want to buy the core game twice in the butt.

Try again.

You are literally not even kittening buying it.
It just comes as a bonus for people that don’t have it.
AGAIN.
YOU
ARE
NOT
BUYING
IT

kitten

It costs ANet to give stuff out for free.
Somebody else has to pay more to recoup that cost.

So on one level you’re right we aren’t buying the extra copies for ourselves.
We’re buying them for the new players. Huh, guess we really are the nicest community in gaming.

We’re not buying the game for new people, Anet is simply not charging new people for it, The price is the same with or without the original game being included. Would you be happy if they offered just an upgrade for $50, because that was the original plan.

“Simply not charging people” is an opportunity cost that somebody has to bear. The expansion would not be priced at 50$ if they were not giving out copies, barring the possibility that arenanet is generous enough to take the loss but somehow not generous enough to take an equivalent loss (charslot=$10=basegame) for veterans.

Now I’m not saying the latter possibility isn’t an option. It’s probably the most likely situation given marketing benefits of generosity to new players and the relative lack of gains when extending those benefits to vets. However, I see alot of people coming out with the “but its just a gift” argument as a counter to people who are aggrieved by the difference in treatment, when really it doesn’t change a thing.

TL;DR: Either we’re paying for the new copies, or Arenanet is choosing to make less money off of them but not off of us. Either way the vets are getting shafted and only the first option makes sense from an economics standpoint.

Or Anet wants more people to have access to the gem shop, which makes them money.

The cost doesn’t go away because there are side benefits to be made. If you break it down this is covered by the 2nd interpretation I gave you.

“It’s probably the most likely situation given marketing benefits of generosity to new players and the relative lack of gains when extending those benefits to vets.”

The distinction of your viewpoint is just that you believe that the marketing benefits will bring in enough new players for the additional gem revenue to actually pay off the cost of not selling the base game and loss of gem revenue from ticked off vets.

I would be personally astounded to find this to be true given that Arenanet considers the value of the base game to be less than 20% the current list price of the prepurchase package, although I will concede that if this were the case ANet would be behaving fairly and there is no way to be sure that this is or is not the case.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

serenke.4806:

You’re not buying the core game twice.

No honest, you are just paying the price of a full game, and the full game is included along with it for free.

Kind of like when you buy a new rearview mirror for your car, and it costs the price of a new car, but you get a free car along with it…. unless you already have a car, but its still the same price.

Evidence? ANet has stated that they have valued the Expansion at $50.

Gotejjeken.1267:

I don’t even. The game at launch was $60. The expansion is nearly $60…and you think the base game being included isn’t having an effect on the price?

Well then ANet is lying to us. But since there is no evidence other than speculation. Well I guess for once I’m not the cynic.

Vayne.8563:

$50 is fine for an expansion. WoW charges that and also a sub. FFXIV charges $40 but also a sub. There’s no reason any AAA title shouldn’t charge $50 for an expansion.

Honestly I think the forum is full of mono-gamers.
Seriously purchased a video game recently? $50 isn’t some horrid unbelievably high price.

Linnael.1069:

The cost doesn’t go away because there are side benefits to be made. If you break it down this is covered by the 2nd interpretation I gave you.

“It’s probably the most likely situation given marketing benefits of generosity to new players and the relative lack of gains when extending those benefits to vets.”

The distinction of your viewpoint is just that you believe that the marketing benefits will bring in enough new players for the additional gem revenue to actually pay off the cost of not selling the base game and loss of gem revenue from ticked off vets.

I would be personally astounded to find this to be true given that Arenanet considers the value of the base game to be less than 20% the current list price of the prepurchase package, although I will concede that if this were the case ANet would be behaving fairly and there is no way to be sure that this is or is not the case.

Let’s assume that the 7 million or so copies of GW2 that was sold actually covered the development of the base game (http://www.engadget.com/2014/07/10/guild-wars-2-selling-well-in-china/), and that the gemstore has been sufficiently covered the running costs. That means there is no need to pay off the base game. As such (assuming the gemstore didn’t provide sufficient revenue for the development of HoT) then they’re only in the red for the development of HoT and as such giving the base game away free doesn’t seem unreasonable as they’re only need to cover the development costs of HoT.

Vayne.8563:

Linnael.1069:

Vayne.8563:

Linnael.1069:

Unloveableone.6082:

FirebrandFrog.7603:

Except the Megaservers aren’t ridiculously priced and bite older players who don’t want to buy the core game twice in the butt.

Try again.

You are literally not even kittening buying it.
It just comes as a bonus for people that don’t have it.
AGAIN.
YOU
ARE
NOT
BUYING
IT

kitten

It costs ANet to give stuff out for free.
Somebody else has to pay more to recoup that cost.

So on one level you’re right we aren’t buying the extra copies for ourselves.
We’re buying them for the new players. Huh, guess we really are the nicest community in gaming.

We’re not buying the game for new people, Anet is simply not charging new people for it, The price is the same with or without the original game being included. Would you be happy if they offered just an upgrade for $50, because that was the original plan.

“Simply not charging people” is an opportunity cost that somebody has to bear. The expansion would not be priced at 50$ if they were not giving out copies, barring the possibility that arenanet is generous enough to take the loss but somehow not generous enough to take an equivalent loss (charslot=$10=basegame) for veterans.

Now I’m not saying the latter possibility isn’t an option. It’s probably the most likely situation given marketing benefits of generosity to new players and the relative lack of gains when extending those benefits to vets. However, I see alot of people coming out with the “but its just a gift” argument as a counter to people who are aggrieved by the difference in treatment, when really it doesn’t change a thing.

TL;DR: Either we’re paying for the new copies, or Arenanet is choosing to make less money off of them but not off of us. Either way they vets are getting shafted and only the first option makes sense from an economics standpoint.

Or Anet wants more people to have access to the gem shop, which makes them money.

But then people would be right complaining about the price. I have no problem with the price but that is also because I take the cash-shop out of the equation. For a B2P game, $50,- for an expansion is fine, one every year would even be fine. On the other hand, when you focus on a cash-shop for your income there are also multiple mmo’s providing the content completely for free.

So I’m fine with the $50,- (In fact I will buy a hard copy of the Deluxe version, or might it become available a CE) but then you can expect me keeping complaining about the cash-shop focus and rightfully so.

@Devata when will you accept that ANet will never be able to crank out expansions at a rate that could sustain the business. GW2 is an entirely different style game from GW. And as long as ANet’s number one priority it no monthly fee the cash shop is the only option available short of opening a Patreon account.

Rally against the cash shop but unless you know of a business model that doesn’t include a cash shop that includes juiced up items as most F2P games sell or walled off content that you can access for a fee or for a subscription in everything but name this is the model they have.

Wishing it was “just like GW” with an expansion every 12 months on average to keep the lights on and the development continuing isn’t going to work. I hope you realize that if GW2 didn’t get the green light and the funding from NCSOFT for development, GW would have likely shut down years ago due to lack of income. The only reason it’s still alive today is because ANet tied the HoM to GW2.

CureForLiving.5360:

Evidence? ANet has stated that they have valued the Expansion at $50.

Which is the price of the full game. So if the full game is included along with it for free, that makes the price tag really fishy.

Honest, you are not paying for the full game that we included with this expansion, it just so happens to cost the price of a full game…. right…

Behellagh.1468:

@Devata when will you accept that ANet will never be able to crank out expansions at a rate that could sustain the business. GW2 is an entirely different style game from GW. And as long as ANet’s number one priority it no monthly fee the cash shop is the only option available short of opening a Patreon account.

Rally against the cash shop but unless you know of a business model that doesn’t include a cash shop that includes juiced up items as most F2P games sell or walled off content that you can access for a fee or for a subscription in everything but name this is the model they have.

Wishing it was “just like GW” with an expansion every 12 months on average to keep the lights on and the development continuing isn’t going to work. I hope you realize that if GW2 didn’t get the green light and the funding from NCSOFT for development, GW would have likely shut down years ago due to lack of income. The only reason it’s still alive today is because ANet tied the HoM to GW2.

You’re forgetting to mention pre launch we were promised the shop wasn’t the revenue generator it’s become. I’d have never bought it if they told the truth. You can claim they need revenue but also remember they change business models on a whim.

Behellagh.1468:

@Devata when will you accept that ANet will never be able to crank out expansions at a rate that could sustain the business. GW2 is an entirely different style game from GW. And as long as ANet’s number one priority it no monthly fee the cash shop is the only option available short of opening a Patreon account.

Rally against the cash shop but unless you know of a business model that doesn’t include a cash shop that includes juiced up items as most F2P games sell or walled off content that you can access for a fee or for a subscription in everything but name this is the model they have.

Wishing it was “just like GW” with an expansion every 12 months on average to keep the lights on and the development continuing isn’t going to work. I hope you realize that if GW2 didn’t get the green light and the funding from NCSOFT for development, GW would have likely shut down years ago due to lack of income. The only reason it’s still alive today is because ANet tied the HoM to GW2.

“when will you accept that ANet will never be able to crank out expansions at a rate that could sustain the business.” Or when will you accept they can.

Pretty much every SP game out there works this way. many titles have been in the market for over 10 years and doing fine that way, The Sims, GTA, Tomb Raider series. Sure they have lower running cost, however they also release complete new games, not expansion so the even things out.

So from a financial viewpoint it is possible. I also think they should be able to release an expansion once every year / 1,5 year. When basing myself on the way expansion spike (based on GW1) and comparing that to GW2’s income overtime Anet would have already earned more money.

Also I do think HoT has did not start development (for the biggest part) after the Chinese release so that is just over a year now.

So there is no doubt in my mind it’s possible and even that it’s the best. Whether you want to accept that it’s possible or not.

“The only reason it’s still alive today is because ANet tied the HoM to GW2.” You got that the other way around, GW2 is there because of GW1.

@Devata.6589 Living Story man/woman hours could easily turn out an expansion every year as they did with GW1. I agree with everything you’ve written.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

CureForLiving.5360:

Evidence? ANet has stated that they have valued the Expansion at $50.

Which is the price of the full game. So if the full game is included along with it for free, that makes the price tag really fishy.

Honest, you are not paying for the full game that we included with this expansion, it just so happens to cost the price of a full game…. right…

That’s not evidence, that speculation.

Aidenwolf.5964:

@Devata.6589 Living Story man/woman hours could easily turn out an expansion every year as they did with GW1. I agree with everything you’ve written.

GW1 was a different game. Cost and difficulty of development has only increased since then not decreased.

I suspect neither Aidenwold or Devata ever worked on software development much less game development.

GW was the equivalent of an Infocom’s ZIL or LucusArts SCUMM game. Relatively easy to knock out another game using the same underlying tech with simply a new coat of paint/art assets.

GW2 is a completely different beast and is more difficult to crank out “another whole game” the way the campaigns were, which is what all of you are calling expansions.

The hub/spoke/instanced model is so much easier to develop new content for than a full blown MMO that GW2 is. And unlike GW they aren’t just throwing a bunch of traits out there and then worry how to balance it all at a later date. That’s just another GW hardcore player harping point. GW2 is targeting the casual player so everything is about simplifying the experience so new players won’t be turned off playing, so no, you cant’ have 100s of traits to rummage through to find the overpowered combination to be nerfed the next time ANet does a balance sweep. Even the reduced set GW2 has still causes ANet to rebalance periodically.

GW2 wasn’t for the GW hardcore, those who were still playing in 2010. The money they spent in GW was long gone in terms of keeping that game open or the development of GW2. Their only contribution was impressing the NCSOFT money guys to lend ANet the development funds for GW2.

And yes, if it wasn’t for EotN with the HoM tying into GW2, GW would have been shut down totally. While GW may have allowed GW2 to be developed, the prospect of GW2 kept GW’s lights on pre launch and GW2’s success since launch.

CureForLiving.5360:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

CureForLiving.5360:

Evidence? ANet has stated that they have valued the Expansion at $50.

Which is the price of the full game. So if the full game is included along with it for free, that makes the price tag really fishy.

Honest, you are not paying for the full game that we included with this expansion, it just so happens to cost the price of a full game…. right…

That’s not evidence, that speculation.

Aidenwolf.5964:

@Devata.6589 Living Story man/woman hours could easily turn out an expansion every year as they did with GW1. I agree with everything you’ve written.

GW1 was a different game. Cost and difficulty of development has only increased since then not decreased.

True, on the other hand, the size of the team and income of the game has also increased.

Behellagh.1468:

I suspect neither Aidenwold or Devata ever worked on software development

It’s my job.

Behellagh.1468:

I suspect neither Aidenwold or Devata ever worked on software development much less game development.

GW was the equivalent of an Infocom’s ZIL or LucusArts SCUMM game. Relatively easy to knock out another game using the same underlying tech with simply a new coat of paint/art assets.

GW2 is a completely different beast and is more difficult to crank out “another whole game” the way the campaigns were, which is what all of you are calling expansions.

The hub/spoke/instanced model is so much easier to develop new content for than a full blown MMO that GW2 is. And unlike GW they aren’t just throwing a bunch of traits out there and then worry how to balance it all at a later date. That’s just another GW hardcore player harping point. GW2 is targeting the casual player so everything is about simplifying the experience so new players won’t be turned off playing, so no, you cant’ have 100s of traits to rummage through to find the overpowered combination to be nerfed the next time ANet does a balance sweep. Even the reduced set GW2 has still causes ANet to rebalance periodically.

GW2 wasn’t for the GW hardcore, those who were still playing in 2010. The money they spent in GW was long gone in terms of keeping that game open or the development of GW2. Their only contribution was impressing the NCSOFT money guys to lend ANet the development funds for GW2.

And yes, if it wasn’t for EotN with the HoM tying into GW2, GW would have been shut down totally. While GW may have allowed GW2 to be developed, the prospect of GW2 kept GW’s lights on pre launch and GW2’s success since launch.

I can’t speak to his/her resume but I am a programmer and have developed flash based games for over a decade and am a small business owner.

The source code for GW2 is the same proprietary platform as GW1 with a streamlined GUI added to allow anyone at Anet to “code”.

The complexity of the system is irrelevant as they designed it. Map creating is perhaps the simplest part of design for me (Maya, Lightwave) so I’ll asume you my misspoke about it being difficult.

If they can make an expansion a year from now on, will the next expansion be 50 dollars also?

Just a flesh wound.3589:

If they can make an expansion a year from now on, will the next expansion be 50 dollars also?

Of course, and we’ll still be as gemstore-centric as a FTP game

Aidenwolf.5964:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

If they can make an expansion a year from now on, will the next expansion be 50 dollars also?

Of course, and we’ll still be as gemstore-centric as a FTP game

Because that just occurred to me. One of the arguments for this expansion being worth 50plus is because it’s been so long since ANet has required payment to play. But if they start putting out an expansion a year, will they still be asking the same amount of money for the same amount of work they did? I’m really wondering about this.

50.00 is 1.00 per hour of play time if you play for 50 hrs and most of us have thousands of hours put into the base game. So, let’s see. We spend 100 hrs playing the new content (the content we have seen is not the only content that will be provided, it’s just a start) that means we get our entertainment for .50 an hour. You spend 200 hrs in the content and it is .25 cents per hour.

Now let’s compare that to a movie since movies are entertainment. It is 15.00 per movie for a 2.5 hr movie. That’s 6.00 per hour of entertainment. If you want to see it again, that’s another 6.00 per hour unless you buy the blu ray and then it’s an extra 30.00 (depending on the movie of course).

Where do you want to spend your entertainment dollars. I love the core game. I love what the devs have done so far and I spoke with my money. My entertainment dollars went to Anet.

Tere.4759:

50.00 is 1.00 per hour of play time if you play for 50 hrs and most of us have thousands of hours put into the base game. So, let’s see. We spend 100 hrs playing the new content (the content we have seen is not the only content that will be provided, it’s just a start) that means we get our entertainment for .50 an hour. You spend 200 hrs in the content and it is .25 cents per hour.

Now let’s compare that to a movie since movies are entertainment. It is 15.00 per movie for a 2.5 hr movie. That’s 6.00 per hour of entertainment. If you want to see it again, that’s another 6.00 per hour unless you buy the blu ray and then it’s an extra 30.00 (depending on the movie of course).

Where do you want to spend your entertainment dollars. I love the core game. I love what the devs have done so far and I spoke with my money. My entertainment dollars went to Anet.

Will you be willing to spend another 50-100 dollars next year if they put out another expansion in a year from now?

Tere.4759:

50.00 is 1.00 per hour of play time if you play for 50 hrs and most of us have thousands of hours put into the base game. So, let’s see. We spend 100 hrs playing the new content (the content we have seen is not the only content that will be provided, it’s just a start) that means we get our entertainment for .50 an hour. You spend 200 hrs in the content and it is .25 cents per hour.

Now let’s compare that to a movie since movies are entertainment. It is 15.00 per movie for a 2.5 hr movie. That’s 6.00 per hour of entertainment. If you want to see it again, that’s another 6.00 per hour unless you buy the blu ray and then it’s an extra 30.00 (depending on the movie of course).

Where do you want to spend your entertainment dollars. I love the core game. I love what the devs have done so far and I spoke with my money. My entertainment dollars went to Anet.

This argument has to be one of the greatest fallacies of man. People would never say this in real life(for fear of ridicule), but their behavior lines up with this thinking far too often.

Tere.4759:

50.00 is 1.00 per hour of play time if you play for 50 hrs and most of us have thousands of hours put into the base game. So, let’s see. We spend 100 hrs playing the new content (the content we have seen is not the only content that will be provided, it’s just a start) that means we get our entertainment for .50 an hour. You spend 200 hrs in the content and it is .25 cents per hour.

Now let’s compare that to a movie since movies are entertainment. It is 15.00 per movie for a 2.5 hr movie. That’s 6.00 per hour of entertainment. If you want to see it again, that’s another 6.00 per hour unless you buy the blu ray and then it’s an extra 30.00 (depending on the movie of course).

Where do you want to spend your entertainment dollars. I love the core game. I love what the devs have done so far and I spoke with my money. My entertainment dollars went to Anet.

Good argument, and often brought up when people are enraged about gaming prices. It’s just incomplete.

You are comparing apples and oranges. It’s like comparing going to the beach with going skiing. Both are leisure activities/vacation, and priced very differently. Fair? Probably not, but reality.

So are you going to compare skiresorts to beaches, or other skiresorts? Why would you do that with games and movies then? Because they are closer related? Big mistake.

You have to compare apples with apples. In this case your game is competing with other games directly, and movies indirectly. Hence people complaining about a game price tag will compare to what else they could get in terms of another game. Which given the E3 right now, is tough competition.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

CureForLiving.5360:

Evidence? ANet has stated that they have valued the Expansion at $50.

Which is the price of the full game. So if the full game is included along with it for free, that makes the price tag really fishy.

Honest, you are not paying for the full game that we included with this expansion, it just so happens to cost the price of a full game…. right…

But the price you will pay for Heart of Thorns, without the base game attached, will still be $50. $50 is a normal price for expansions and/or new games anyway

Just a flesh wound.3589:

If they can make an expansion a year from now on, will the next expansion be 50 dollars also?

Sure, what would be fine as if we would then NOT be cash-shop centric anymore. You would be paying for the content, not to get out of the grind for fluff, fluff could then be fun rewards in the game.

Aidenwolf.5964:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

If they can make an expansion a year from now on, will the next expansion be 50 dollars also?

Of course, and we’ll still be as gemstore-centric as a FTP game

No, because it would not be F2P (like it pretty much is at this moment), it would be B2P, like the game was promoted to be before launch.

Op is right.

This entire craze reminds me of the steam boycott groups.

Every time, the angry gamers buy it anyway. No bite, just bark.

[quote=5172395;Aidenwolf.5964:]

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Tere.4759:

50.00 is 1.00 per hour of play time if you play for 50 hrs and most of us have thousands of hours put into the base game. So, let’s see. We spend 100 hrs playing the new content (the content we have seen is not the only content that will be provided, it’s just a start) that means we get our entertainment for .50 an hour. You spend 200 hrs in the content and it is .25 cents per hour.

Now let’s compare that to a movie since movies are entertainment. It is 15.00 per movie for a 2.5 hr movie. That’s 6.00 per hour of entertainment. If you want to see it again, that’s another 6.00 per hour unless you buy the blu ray and then it’s an extra 30.00 (depending on the movie of course).

Where do you want to spend your entertainment dollars. I love the core game. I love what the devs have done so far and I spoke with my money. My entertainment dollars went to Anet.

Will you be willing to spend another 50-100 dollars next year if they put out another expansion in a year from now?

I would have no problem with that, in fact I would love that IF it would mean less focus on the cash-shop, so less of a grind for everything in the game but having those items as a reward in the game.

Compare for example WoW with GW2 here (games most people here know both). WoW is focused on a subscription, GW2 on the cash-shop for most of its income. In both games you can get a flying carpet, in GW2 you can buy it with cash, or grind gold in-game to buy it. In WoW it’s something you create with a profession. Similar things apply to many mini’s, skins, toys and so on. In WoW they are rewarded ingame for activities, while in GW2 it’s mostly, buy or grind.

If GW2 would move away from this grind or buy with cash, but start putting those things in the game itself (like WoW does) and then asks $50 / $100 a year for expansions I would be more than willing to pay that (likely going for the $100,- CE if that would be available).

Obviously, if they keep this F2P way of grind or buy then it would not be a price people should be willing to pay. With the B2P model you would simply pay for the game.. and a more fun game one could expect, fair enough.

Four of my friends quit the game when the megaserver happened and never came back.

OK. Its honestly amazing to me the level of selective memory people seem to have here.

Here’s a car analogy in case you’re still confused for some reason:

Car company sells a bunch of people a car for 500 dollars. Some buy it with a few extra features for 600 dollars. Over 3 years those people get a few tweaks and upgrades to the car and even pay for a few upgrades themselves, sometimes spending way more than they did on the car in the first place.

Then one day the car company announces they are putting out a new engine for the car that will come with a nitro boost feature among other things and really try to sell the new engine to their existing customers and new ones. They also explicitly state that the engine won’t work without the car, and that you WILL need the car to even use the engine. The engine is literally worthless without the car.

They then help some people get the car for a kitteneaper than before. Great, fine.

They then set up the engine for sale, but wait:

The engine costs 500 dollars
If you don’t have the car, they are including it for free for you BUT…
If you already have the car, you only get the engine for the same price others get both
If you are a completely new buyer, you also happen to get the nitro boost option BUT
If you are already a car owner and want that option you can pay 600 dollars to get it

Remember, the engine is USELESS without the car.

This is categorically unfair to the ones that have already owned and dropped money on the car they have already. It is dubious and no amount of White knighting can erase this fact.

How is it dubious? If anything it’s a sane business practice. With the expac coming out, it’s idiocy to continue selling just the base game by itself, then require them to pay yet again for the expansion. If it’s really that much of a problem for you, go to Anet, ask for a refund, watch as they close your account, and then go buy it with the refund. Otherwise you’re demanding Anet reduces the price below what they established (they’re a business, not a charity people) as the standard, with no justification.

And frankly, there’s no way to justify demanding they reduce the price when all the information isnt even out yet, and it’s on preorder status. Maybe not even after all the info’s out.

$50 per year does not seem excessive to me, even with an optional cosmetics focused cash shop, assuming that the expansion is worth that much to the individual. This one is not for me but perhaps the next.

Sorry, I’m not buying the car analogy. As usual, using an analogy to a real life issue falls flat because the two things are so dissimilar that the analogy makes no sense.

• Car manufacturers do not, and never will, give away an entire car to sell an engine. A single car for a promotion? Sure. All the cars in a line? Never. Why? Materials cost. The costs to ANet to modify the HoT access codes with permissions to access the rest of the game are trivial if not non-existent.
• The only opportunity cost to accepting the (supposedly) free new car with engine purchase would be a sentimental attachment to an old car that is now worth a fraction of what you paid for it. Purchasing a completely new car with an engine that does more than the old car’s engine at the same cost as the older car would be a no-brainer for most car owners. This is not true in GW2. Account progression enhances the value of the account to the owner. Using a car over several years time depreciates the value of the car.

People seeing this situation as “unfair” are thinking two things.

1. They want access to HoT while keeping their account progression.
2. They are assigning a value to a new core account and assuming that if HoT were sold without the new account, the price would be lower.

Number 1 is perfectly understandable. There’s a price tag, which is $50.
Number 2 is also understandable — however, it’s a mistake. The most likely change scenario would be that HoT would remain $50 and the core game would no longer be included for free.

Why? Because ANet has priced HoT @ $50. By all means, question whether HoT is worth $50. However, assigning price to a product is the company’s prerogative and consumers ought to consider both the alternatives and the reasons for what they do.

Attaching the core game is indeed an attempt to make more money. However, it’s not at the “expense” of veterans. A GW2 veteran who buys HoT and chooses to apply the code to a new account gets exactly the same as a new buyer. They get a virgin account that has access to core GW2 and HoT, 5 character slots, etc.

ANet is attaching the core game to HoT because they believe they will sell enough additional copies of HoT/GW2 to make up for — and more — the revenue loss from not selling the core game separately to prospects.

There are economic reasons to do it this way rather than the alternative of making core GW2 free to play and charging $50 for HoT. One is to attach a cost to new accounts to prevent RMT providers from access to an infinite supply. Another is to prevent potential player abuse of login rewards to laurel-farm gold. Both of these are desirable outcomes to consumers.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Attaching the core game is indeed an attempt to make more money. However, it’s not at the “expense” of veterans. A GW2 veteran who buys HoT and chooses to apply the code to a new account gets exactly the same as a new buyer. They get a virgin account that has access to core GW2 and HoT, 5 character slots, etc.

But that is where you are wrong if you pre-purchase HoT but already have the core game you DO NOT get a secondary new account, you just get the upgrade to HoT.

So once again, if you pre-purchase but don’t have an account you get a new account AND HoT.

If you already have an account you only get HoT.

That is the issue people have with this.

Roquen.5406:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Attaching the core game is indeed an attempt to make more money. However, it’s not at the “expense” of veterans. A GW2 veteran who buys HoT and chooses to apply the code to a new account gets exactly the same as a new buyer. They get a virgin account that has access to core GW2 and HoT, 5 character slots, etc.

But that is where you are wrong if you pre-purchase HoT but already have the core game you DO NOT get a secondary new account, you just get the upgrade to HoT.

So once again, if you pre-purchase but don’t have an account you get a new account AND HoT.

If you already have an account you only get HoT.

That is the issue people have with this.

Actually, what he said is correct. He said that if you pre-buy and do not apply the code to an existing account, you will get the exact same thing that a brand new buyer gets, a new account with access to the HoT on that new account. Whether or not this is desirable to a veteran player is not something he discussed, only that the same option is available.

His argument is kind of nit picking though imo because while it is an option, it’s not a desirable option as it comes with so many disadvantages to someone who is progressing an old account. The old account will not have accesss to further progression from the new system and has no accesss to the new areas.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Roquen.5406:

But that is where you are wrong if you pre-purchase HoT but already have the core game you DO NOT get a secondary new account, you just get the upgrade to HoT.

So once again, if you pre-purchase but don’t have an account you get a new account AND HoT.

If you already have an account you only get HoT.

That is the issue people have with this.

Actually, what he said is correct. He said that if you pre-buy and do not apply the code to an existing account, you will get the exact same thing that a brand new buyer gets, a new account with access to the HoT on that new account. Whether or not this is desirable to a veteran player is not something he discussed, only that the same option is available.

His argument is kind of nit picking though imo because while it is an option, it’s not a desirable option as it comes with so many disadvantages to someone who is progressing an old account. The old account will not have accesss to further progression from the new system and has no accesss to the new areas.

If you’d read the entirety of my post, you’d see that I did in fact comment on the desirability of attaching the HoT code to an existing account.

Also, the argument is not nitpicking if in fact one understands that the price if HoT is $50 and will be whether ANet keeps the free GW2 access or drops it due to poster pressure.

Posters who expect ANet to reduce the HoT price have not considered the economic realities. ANet stands to lose a lot more money if they drop the HoT price to $40 than they would likely lose if the barrier to entry were $60 or $70 (say) to new prospects. HoT sales to vets and returning vets are likely to be much higher than sales to new players no matter what new players have to pay.

Again, whether HoT is worth $50 is a separate issue that each consumer ought to evaluate for her/himself. If ANet had waited to attach a free GW2 copy to HoT until the xpac debuts, that is the issue that would be on the table, not perceived “unfairness.” Why didn’t they wait? I’m not sure. My guess would be because we’re approaching the end of Q2 2015 and NCSoft would like to see as much revenue increase as possible from GW2 for the quarterly report.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Roquen.5406:

But that is where you are wrong if you pre-purchase HoT but already have the core game you DO NOT get a secondary new account, you just get the upgrade to HoT.

So once again, if you pre-purchase but don’t have an account you get a new account AND HoT.

If you already have an account you only get HoT.

That is the issue people have with this.

Actually, what he said is correct. He said that if you pre-buy and do not apply the code to an existing account, you will get the exact same thing that a brand new buyer gets, a new account with access to the HoT on that new account. Whether or not this is desirable to a veteran player is not something he discussed, only that the same option is available.

His argument is kind of nit picking though imo because while it is an option, it’s not a desirable option as it comes with so many disadvantages to someone who is progressing an old account. The old account will not have accesss to further progression from the new system and has no accesss to the new areas.

If you’d read the entirety of my post, you’d see that I did in fact comment on the desirability of attaching the HoT code to an existing account.

Also, the argument is not nitpicking if in fact one understands that the price if HoT is $50 and will be whether ANet keeps the free GW2 access or drops it due to poster pressure.

Posters who expect ANet to reduce the HoT price have not considered the economic realities. ANet stands to lose a lot more money if they drop the HoT price to $40 than they would likely lose if the barrier to entry were $60 or $70 (say) to new prospects. HoT sales to vets and returning vets are likely to be much higher than sales to new players no matter what new players have to pay.

Again, whether HoT is worth $50 is a separate issue that each consumer ought to evaluate for her/himself. If ANet had waited to attach a free GW2 copy to HoT until the xpac debuts, that is the issue that would be on the table, not perceived “unfairness.” Why didn’t they wait? I’m not sure. My guess would be because we’re approaching the end of Q2 2015 and NCSoft would like to see as much revenue increase as possible from GW2 for the quarterly report.

wether they will lose more money depends on how many people they lose at the 50 dollar price point versus the 40 dollar price point.

lets say they make sell 800 thousand at 40 dollars or 32 million
or 500k at 50 dollars is 25 million.

basically mathematically the break down between price points is

5:4 essentially if the 40 price will increase sales by 25%, it is of the same value. conversly, if the 50 dollar prices causes a 20% drop in player interest, it is the same value.

basically anet marketing guys have figured that they wont lose or gain that many players with a 40 versus a 50 dollar price point.

based on what people are saying now, and the contraversy, that may not be the case. The assumption was probably that at 50 dollar cost they would still have an extremely high retention rate.

what i see happening, is probably many people will not prepurchase, they will probably get some 40 dollar deal from a place like green man gaming or etc.
anet actually loses money on these sales, because they dont get full profit from these purchases. im assuming they probably get 20-30 dollars out of other retailers prices.

point is, i think they picked the wrong price point, definately for the public opinion, but also for maximum profit.
39.99 right now is the sweet spot for expansions.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Roquen.5406:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Attaching the core game is indeed an attempt to make more money. However, it’s not at the “expense” of veterans. A GW2 veteran who buys HoT and chooses to apply the code to a new account gets exactly the same as a new buyer. They get a virgin account that has access to core GW2 and HoT, 5 character slots, etc.

But that is where you are wrong if you pre-purchase HoT but already have the core game you DO NOT get a secondary new account, you just get the upgrade to HoT.

So once again, if you pre-purchase but don’t have an account you get a new account AND HoT.

If you already have an account you only get HoT.

That is the issue people have with this.

Actually, what he said is correct. He said that if you pre-buy and do not apply the code to an existing account, you will get the exact same thing that a brand new buyer gets, a new account with access to the HoT on that new account. Whether or not this is desirable to a veteran player is not something he discussed, only that the same option is available.

His argument is kind of nit picking though imo because while it is an option, it’s not a desirable option as it comes with so many disadvantages to someone who is progressing an old account. The old account will not have accesss to further progression from the new system and has no accesss to the new areas.

I think in order to do that you would have to register a new account (as in new email…etc). And if he is really attempting to argue that angle…he’s just doing it out of spite at that point as that’s not really a reasonable option.

Still, what about the people that bought accounts more recently because it was stated that you needed the base game?

Take this for example, if I bought the game 2 weeks ago because I read the FAQ that mentioned HoT was not a standalone game. I am now paying more for the same product being offered, i.e., I paid $60 2 weeks ago and now another $50 for HoT (which includes what I bought in the first place). Rather than the new player that only has to pay $50 for both. Now even if I got the game on sale, I am still paying more than someone who did not because they no longer need to purchase the core game.

You can argue that I can get a refund for my money if it’s within a certain time frame but I would lose any progress that I would have made. That is not something you can refund, so most people would not opt for said refund. Note that this doesn’t apply to me, it was just an example.

I would relate it to DLC for other games. Let’s say I want to play Advanced Warfare Zombies. In order to play that I would need the base game, plus the map pack(s) because the zombie mode is only included in the DLC. So that’s $60 (or whatever price it is at the current time) plus $10-15 per map pack or $50 for a season pass.

Now it says very clearly that the season pass or map packs are not standalone games, you need to have the actual game in order to play them. Let’s say I went and bought the game for $60 plus the Season Pass for $50, I now spent $110. If a week later they ninja change the disclaimer and allow people to only pay $50 for a season pass, which allows them to play the zombie mode without buying the game, you can kitten well be sure that I would be kittened. And I feel that is essentially what Anet or NCSOFT did.

A lot of time and careful planning goes into these decisions, so it was most likely a deliberate cash grab. Which is wrong on their end. They blatantly lied to their player base to get more money. It’s not a matter of how much it may or may not break the bank but more so that they pulled what IMO could be considered a bait and switch.

ICEing.9237:

This is short and sweet. It’s a cycle that I’ve seen happen over and over again.

Anet will release or change something. Like Megaserver for example. People immediately start complaining on the forums, the pages are filled with topics: “I’m quitting!” “Let’s make Anet hear us!”

Anet will not change anything. They are in the buisness to make money. Just like the era of Megaserver, they will ignore EVERYTHING you guys say until things die down. They know eventually you will accept it and buy the expac anyway. Just like it took about a month to accept the Megaserver, * and now nobody complains and have grown to accept it*, it will be the same here.

And the folks at Anet are probably laughing at the threats to not buy the expansion when they know well, when it releases and people realize the price will be the same, they will purchase it anyway. All while copy pasting reassuring messages your complaints are being heard.

That’s how it is.

You’re right about everything except what I’ve bolded. People still grumble about the Megaserver. That’s how it works. The forums rage for a while, people who are upset enough leave the game, everyone else calms down and goes on playing with a little bit of grudge against ArenaNet.

Hey, there are still plenty of us grumbling about Ascended gear, and that was introduced a few months after launch.

Yes, the rage dies down, but it doesn’t disappear. It just settles into simmering dissatisfaction that makes the next rage-storm that much easier.

phys.7689:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Roquen.5406:

But that is where you are wrong if you pre-purchase HoT but already have the core game you DO NOT get a secondary new account, you just get the upgrade to HoT.

So once again, if you pre-purchase but don’t have an account you get a new account AND HoT.

If you already have an account you only get HoT.

That is the issue people have with this.

Actually, what he said is correct. He said that if you pre-buy and do not apply the code to an existing account, you will get the exact same thing that a brand new buyer gets, a new account with access to the HoT on that new account. Whether or not this is desirable to a veteran player is not something he discussed, only that the same option is available.

His argument is kind of nit picking though imo because while it is an option, it’s not a desirable option as it comes with so many disadvantages to someone who is progressing an old account. The old account will not have accesss to further progression from the new system and has no accesss to the new areas.

If you’d read the entirety of my post, you’d see that I did in fact comment on the desirability of attaching the HoT code to an existing account.

Also, the argument is not nitpicking if in fact one understands that the price if HoT is $50 and will be whether ANet keeps the free GW2 access or drops it due to poster pressure.

Posters who expect ANet to reduce the HoT price have not considered the economic realities. ANet stands to lose a lot more money if they drop the HoT price to $40 than they would likely lose if the barrier to entry were $60 or $70 (say) to new prospects. HoT sales to vets and returning vets are likely to be much higher than sales to new players no matter what new players have to pay.

Again, whether HoT is worth $50 is a separate issue that each consumer ought to evaluate for her/himself. If ANet had waited to attach a free GW2 copy to HoT until the xpac debuts, that is the issue that would be on the table, not perceived “unfairness.” Why didn’t they wait? I’m not sure. My guess would be because we’re approaching the end of Q2 2015 and NCSoft would like to see as much revenue increase as possible from GW2 for the quarterly report.

wether they will lose more money depends on how many people they lose at the 50 dollar price point versus the 40 dollar price point.

lets say they make sell 800 thousand at 40 dollars or 32 million
or 500k at 50 dollars is 25 million.

basically mathematically the break down between price points is

5:4 essentially if the 40 price will increase sales by 25%, it is of the same value. conversly, if the 50 dollar prices causes a 20% drop in player interest, it is the same value.

basically anet marketing guys have figured that they wont lose or gain that many players with a 40 versus a 50 dollar price point.

based on what people are saying now, and the contraversy, that may not be the case. The assumption was probably that at 50 dollar cost they would still have an extremely high retention rate.

what i see happening, is probably many people will not prepurchase, they will probably get some 40 dollar deal from a place like green man gaming or etc.
anet actually loses money on these sales, because they dont get full profit from these purchases. im assuming they probably get 20-30 dollars out of other retailers prices.

point is, i think they picked the wrong price point, definately for the public opinion, but also for maximum profit.
39.99 right now is the sweet spot for expansions.

Keep in mind that with the current $50 price tag people willing to spend $50 can do so and that people willing to spend $40 may get a deal from the place you mention.

If the price were at $40 then the people willing to pay $40 would do so and the people willing to pay $50 would spend ten dollars less than they would have.

Ashen.2907:

phys.7689:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Roquen.5406:

But that is where you are wrong if you pre-purchase HoT but already have the core game you DO NOT get a secondary new account, you just get the upgrade to HoT.

So once again, if you pre-purchase but don’t have an account you get a new account AND HoT.

If you already have an account you only get HoT.

That is the issue people have with this.

Actually, what he said is correct. He said that if you pre-buy and do not apply the code to an existing account, you will get the exact same thing that a brand new buyer gets, a new account with access to the HoT on that new account. Whether or not this is desirable to a veteran player is not something he discussed, only that the same option is available.

His argument is kind of nit picking though imo because while it is an option, it’s not a desirable option as it comes with so many disadvantages to someone who is progressing an old account. The old account will not have accesss to further progression from the new system and has no accesss to the new areas.

If you’d read the entirety of my post, you’d see that I did in fact comment on the desirability of attaching the HoT code to an existing account.

Also, the argument is not nitpicking if in fact one understands that the price if HoT is $50 and will be whether ANet keeps the free GW2 access or drops it due to poster pressure.

Posters who expect ANet to reduce the HoT price have not considered the economic realities. ANet stands to lose a lot more money if they drop the HoT price to $40 than they would likely lose if the barrier to entry were $60 or $70 (say) to new prospects. HoT sales to vets and returning vets are likely to be much higher than sales to new players no matter what new players have to pay.

Again, whether HoT is worth $50 is a separate issue that each consumer ought to evaluate for her/himself. If ANet had waited to attach a free GW2 copy to HoT until the xpac debuts, that is the issue that would be on the table, not perceived “unfairness.” Why didn’t they wait? I’m not sure. My guess would be because we’re approaching the end of Q2 2015 and NCSoft would like to see as much revenue increase as possible from GW2 for the quarterly report.

wether they will lose more money depends on how many people they lose at the 50 dollar price point versus the 40 dollar price point.

lets say they make sell 800 thousand at 40 dollars or 32 million
or 500k at 50 dollars is 25 million.

basically mathematically the break down between price points is

5:4 essentially if the 40 price will increase sales by 25%, it is of the same value. conversly, if the 50 dollar prices causes a 20% drop in player interest, it is the same value.

basically anet marketing guys have figured that they wont lose or gain that many players with a 40 versus a 50 dollar price point.

based on what people are saying now, and the contraversy, that may not be the case. The assumption was probably that at 50 dollar cost they would still have an extremely high retention rate.

what i see happening, is probably many people will not prepurchase, they will probably get some 40 dollar deal from a place like green man gaming or etc.
anet actually loses money on these sales, because they dont get full profit from these purchases. im assuming they probably get 20-30 dollars out of other retailers prices.

point is, i think they picked the wrong price point, definately for the public opinion, but also for maximum profit.
39.99 right now is the sweet spot for expansions.

Keep in mind that with the current $50 price tag people willing to spend $50 can do so and that people willing to spend $40 may get a deal from the place you mention.

If the price were at $40 then the people willing to pay $40 would do so and the people willing to pay $50 would spend ten dollars less than they would have.

right but Anet doesnt make as much money from the other retailers selling games as the ones that are directly sold on their site.
the early retailers who give discounts are basically cutting into their own profits to sell at a greater volume, because they feel they will make more money in total.

i am guessing anet sees a max of 25 dollars from retailer sales, probably lower due to shipping/packaging etc.

now, if anet was the sole seller, and people buy from anet down the road when anet has their sale, then it ends up falling in the middle.

but yeah its not so simple as 2 variables but they arent guaranteed to make more money at a higher price, it depends on a lot of factors.

phys.7689:

but yeah its not so simple as 2 variables but they arent guaranteed to make more money at a higher price, it depends on a lot of factors.

Absolutely agreed.

I am just inclined to think that the merchant has access to more information than I do on the matter (I know price reduction to sales increase ratios for my company, but obviously not for GW2). I don’t assume that Anet is infallible, but they certainly have more data than we do.

The “sweetspot” in the price to volume ratio can be a pain to find.

Linnael.1069:

“Simply not charging people” is an opportunity cost that somebody has to bear. The expansion would not be priced at 50$ if they were not giving out copies, barring the possibility that arenanet is generous enough to take the loss but somehow not generous enough to take an equivalent loss (charslot=$10=basegame) for veterans.

Im sorry but you are wrong, first lets put it in cost to later go to opportunity costs, since we need to use costs to measure properly the opportunity costs.

Costs:

GW2 vainilla production: Alredy a fixed costs, dont matter in the cost of nexts unities, specially since they alredy passed the point for going to the CMe.

Second the three variables cost we can considerate right now are: Server and customer service and boxes and such (for none digital editions)

The first two doesnt change if they have HoT or not, so basically they will have them in both cases, bundle or not.

The last one its the only variable cost they have in the current regions when selling the base game.

Now to opportunity costs: I will not get the exact opportunity instead do a simple comparison, note that the cost oportunity its strictly defined as a utility of the second best decision+ cost (not in negative) you dont made in this decision that you was doing in the best decision.

We have two situations bundle and not bundle: Im eliminating both server and customer service costs int he analysis since they are present in both, so they will annulate each other.

Im simplificating so lets considerate that all are physical editions, plus im only analysing the new customers, check lower for the reason.

No Bundle:
(price base game – box cost for the base game) x new sells of the base game + (price HoT- box cost for Hot- cme Hot) x sells of Hot to new customers

Bundle:
(price HoT- box cost for Hot- cme Hot- box base game) x sells of Hot to new customers

More people playing HoT->more player retention-> better customer satifisfaction->
That means more gem sells.

Now as you may know, when you create a bundle you are summing up the utility of the products created by the bundle + the posible extra utility it can generate (that rises the demand curve (not quantity necesarily).

But then comes the extra: as stated gw2 variable cost its alredy past the CMe time and even so the CMe has gone lower upon the increment of extra copies. Now they offer it at 10 dollars , 20 dollars, etc; however that doesnt mean the utility the new customers gain is lower, hence at transfering it to a bundle they are getting partt of this utility to make new customers buy HoT, making the bundle demand quantity higher (thats the trick).

The last important part its: since Hot copies go up this way the CMe of HoT go lower, meaning they get a better % of returns and that can make it go lower in price if they want (meaning theres a posibility of the actual price to have been higuer- honestly i think they just got a better cut, but im making an analysis).

If they are doing the bundle they can easily been considerating than the income gain for it its bigger than the none bundle gain, meaning their better option its the bundle.

Its a fast and simple analysis, but its very legit.

Pd: English isnt my main language.

I think Arenanet would do well to remember what happened to CCP Games when they acted this foolishly.

It cost them 20% of their staff.

THEY were lucky enough to turn it around after that, mostly by the good graces of their customers. Anet won’t be as lucky.