Guild Wars 2

Drivrius.6159:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Drivrius.6159:

It’s the standard MMO solution, I’m not re-inventing the wheel here, they didn’t feel like going the extra mile was worth it which the fact the patch also brought imbalance to PvP and PvE is further proof they might have needed to spend more time and resources on making the patch better before rushing it to meet a self imposed deadline.

Actually, no. They chose to go the extra mile of putting in extra effort to appease the complainers who didn’t want to rebuild their characters themselves. You want them to have gone another mile after that to then also appease people who can’t handle the minor inconvenience this has on a very small cluster of character levels.

Drivrius.6159:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Drivrius.6159:

Pifil.5193:

Drivrius.6159:

Actually it’s going to be more among the lines of:

“You guys know how every MMO we have ever played or even heard of refunds skill tree points when they make a major overhaul or sometimes even a small change to a skill within a tree?”

In guild wars 2 you can respec your traits and reorganise your skills for you build freely. So long as you’re out of combat. That’s the same as in other MMOs (but in the other ones I’ve played it’s never free).

In other games you tend to unlock new abilities as you level all the way to level cap, it’s the same with the Hero Points system, you earn points as you level and unlock new abilities with them but in the case of GW2 you can choose which new abilities you get at each level as you level. You don’t get Fireball at level 20 you get it when you decide you want it.

That’s what I’d tell my friends. You unlock abilities and use them as you level, without having access to everything. I think it’s a good way of learning what your profession can do.

You would tell your friends that because you’re not in my situation.

I could say what you say, but I would be lying in respect to my experience.

Right now I don’t get anything when i want it, I’ll eventually be able to but before that I have to play a character I basically did not make.

So then just delete it and start over. What will you lose? Honestly? Almost everything that matters is account bound now. Any bags you can bank. Your gear is meaningless cause you’re sub 80. If it’s such a big deal to you, why don’t you just start over?

There is your free reset right there.

Starting over from scratch is the best option to a choice outside of the players hand, can you even think of better proof that said change was wrong?

You must not have a lot of experience with MMOs if this is the first time you’ve played one and the result of a major patch had an effect where deleting and restarting your character is the best way to solve it. Specifically for a low to mid level character with nothing to lose.

I see, you’re at a impasse, no way to refute my argument so you revert to personal attacks, it’s ok it only says A LOT about yourself.

What attack? I’m sorry if you’re touchy, though I’m not surprised based on the content to date. But I was being very serious and simply making a statement based on experience. I’ve been in a LOT of MMOs all the way back to UO, and it isn’t really such a monumental nor even unique event, as you seem to think it is, for a major patch to so damage a character as to make them be unplayable. Causing reroll to be the most reasonable solution.

Aside from the frustration of having a character not yet lvl 80 shoehorned into the hero point spending that most closely matched what was on skill bars and already bought, the inability to refund spent points is massively crippling to the game for anyone new to it, or those who are not hardcore players. The ‘just level to 80’ argument goes -entirely- against ANet’s stated position that the game shouldn’t be just about the end game and their striving to make all levels relevant and all zones relevant when you are within them, and has been their focus on building things into the game for development further -after- you hit 80 as we will have once Heart of Thorns comes out. This entire system is almost literally built because of the wish to have some form of advancement once your character can’t level any further.

But they’ve forgotten about those of us not yet 80. I am by far not a hardcore player. The only reason I have a lvl 80 Ele is because I spent a good chunk of time on crafting early on in the games life. I am a notorious alt-holic in other games, and even if I weren’t restricted by character slots being at a premium in GW2, I still wouldn’t be one in this game, especially now. I refused to level a Guardian at start even though I loved the concept, because I hated the weapon set that you started with, and hated how you had to get weapon skills. When they changed weapon skills to be earned by slot and earned by level rather than by using a weapon, then I felt much less confined and restricted and happily leveled a Guardian, because I could easily, easily try the other weapon skills to see what felt right for my playstyle.

But now Im almost afraid to log into that Guardian, whos not yet max level, because I wont be able to change up the places where the hero points were spent. What if I utterly hate how it’s shuffled into, completely making that character unappealing to play? What possible reason would I have to want to not enjoy my time while getting to lvl 80 so I could maybe, possibly find a way I enjoy playing? And what if I find that the changes are something that I just don’t want overall? I will end up feeling like I just wasted a colossal amount of time and possibly gold/karma on equipment or crafting if I went the ‘fast’ way up, leaving me with a very bad taste in the mouth for what the game is and even further lowering any chance Im going to invest more time and real money on gem store purchases because that heavy armor set that might look awesome on the Guardian isn’t something I want to spend money on because I now hate the class and character.

Giving the ability to refund points will likely require doing some math and figuring out if some unlocks should cost more, or less. To see if they really want someone to have the ability to get to nearly full grandmaster in a trait line right away at 21 if they dont spend points at all while leveling, or if they want to encourage putting points into signets. But they should be encouraging experimentation while leveling, to find something you like about a class, because that’s been the entire point of them getting rid of the ‘trinity’, and really the entire way they’ve structured the game from the bottom up.

Right now, I would -not- list this game as one to try for a new person. Not because it’s overly complicated, but because you are so crippled in your early choices that if you make a choice that makes a character utterly unfun to play, it ruins the entire game and experience for you. I wouldn’t be able to convince any friend of mine who feels that way to give another class a try, and I really wouldn’t ever want to say ‘well start over again on another of the same class and spend all that time leveling again and just choose something else’, because who in their right mind would really feel like that was a good choice and not a ‘waste of time’.

‘Level to 80’ or ‘Go into PvP and experiment there’ are not options. One means hours of unsatisfactory gameplay to possibly find out at the end that a class just isn’t something you want to play at all leaving you with an overall terrible taste for the game, and the other is forcing people into a playmode that they may not want to ever engage in. They took the PvP zones out of world explorer for a reason, not everyone wants to touch that. This really feels like ANet entirely dropping the ball and not considering all of their players.

Ataramos.3279:

-snip-

This is so well put, and accurately conveys everything I’m feeling about this. Thank you good sir.

Ataramos.3279:

Right now, I would -not- list this game as one to try for a new person. Not because it’s overly complicated, but because you are so crippled in your early choices that if you make a choice that makes a character utterly unfun to play, it ruins the entire game and experience for you. I wouldn’t be able to convince any friend of mine who feels that way to give another class a try, and I really wouldn’t ever want to say ‘well start over again on another of the same class and spend all that time leveling again and just choose something else’, because who in their right mind would really feel like that was a good choice and not a ‘waste of time’.

‘Level to 80’ or ‘Go into PvP and experiment there’ are not options. One means hours of unsatisfactory gameplay to possibly find out at the end that a class just isn’t something you want to play at all leaving you with an overall terrible taste for the game, and the other is forcing people into a playmode that they may not want to ever engage in. They took the PvP zones out of world explorer for a reason, not everyone wants to touch that. This really feels like ANet entirely dropping the ball and not considering all of their players.

Do you not realize that a new person wouldn’t have this problem at all. Not even a little. That is, a new person would be able to put the points wherever they want.

Vayne.8563:

Ataramos.3279:

Right now, I would -not- list this game as one to try for a new person. Not because it’s overly complicated, but because you are so crippled in your early choices that if you make a choice that makes a character utterly unfun to play, it ruins the entire game and experience for you. I wouldn’t be able to convince any friend of mine who feels that way to give another class a try, and I really wouldn’t ever want to say ‘well start over again on another of the same class and spend all that time leveling again and just choose something else’, because who in their right mind would really feel like that was a good choice and not a ‘waste of time’.

‘Level to 80’ or ‘Go into PvP and experiment there’ are not options. One means hours of unsatisfactory gameplay to possibly find out at the end that a class just isn’t something you want to play at all leaving you with an overall terrible taste for the game, and the other is forcing people into a playmode that they may not want to ever engage in. They took the PvP zones out of world explorer for a reason, not everyone wants to touch that. This really feels like ANet entirely dropping the ball and not considering all of their players.

Do you not realize that a new person wouldn’t have this problem at all. Not even a little. That is, a new person would be able to put the points wherever they want.

You missed the part where he points out your can’t try different builds while lvling, since with no way to get HP refunded you’re stuck with a particular build for a long while before you have enough HP to try a new one.

Drivrius.6159:

Vayne.8563:

Ataramos.3279:

Right now, I would -not- list this game as one to try for a new person. Not because it’s overly complicated, but because you are so crippled in your early choices that if you make a choice that makes a character utterly unfun to play, it ruins the entire game and experience for you. I wouldn’t be able to convince any friend of mine who feels that way to give another class a try, and I really wouldn’t ever want to say ‘well start over again on another of the same class and spend all that time leveling again and just choose something else’, because who in their right mind would really feel like that was a good choice and not a ‘waste of time’.

‘Level to 80’ or ‘Go into PvP and experiment there’ are not options. One means hours of unsatisfactory gameplay to possibly find out at the end that a class just isn’t something you want to play at all leaving you with an overall terrible taste for the game, and the other is forcing people into a playmode that they may not want to ever engage in. They took the PvP zones out of world explorer for a reason, not everyone wants to touch that. This really feels like ANet entirely dropping the ball and not considering all of their players.

Do you not realize that a new person wouldn’t have this problem at all. Not even a little. That is, a new person would be able to put the points wherever they want.

You missed the part where he points out your can’t try different builds while lvling, since with no way to get HP refunded you’re stuck with a particular build for a long while before you have enough HP to try a new one.

You have NEVER been able to try different builds while leveling. And since the open world is relatively easy, you don’t have to worry about them much until you’re 80. I never did.

From launch, you didn’t get traits unlocked fast enough to test any build unless you want to PvP.

That’s life in the big city.

Vayne.8563:

Drivrius.6159:

Vayne.8563:

Ataramos.3279:

Right now, I would -not- list this game as one to try for a new person. Not because it’s overly complicated, but because you are so crippled in your early choices that if you make a choice that makes a character utterly unfun to play, it ruins the entire game and experience for you. I wouldn’t be able to convince any friend of mine who feels that way to give another class a try, and I really wouldn’t ever want to say ‘well start over again on another of the same class and spend all that time leveling again and just choose something else’, because who in their right mind would really feel like that was a good choice and not a ‘waste of time’.

‘Level to 80’ or ‘Go into PvP and experiment there’ are not options. One means hours of unsatisfactory gameplay to possibly find out at the end that a class just isn’t something you want to play at all leaving you with an overall terrible taste for the game, and the other is forcing people into a playmode that they may not want to ever engage in. They took the PvP zones out of world explorer for a reason, not everyone wants to touch that. This really feels like ANet entirely dropping the ball and not considering all of their players.

Do you not realize that a new person wouldn’t have this problem at all. Not even a little. That is, a new person would be able to put the points wherever they want.

You missed the part where he points out your can’t try different builds while lvling, since with no way to get HP refunded you’re stuck with a particular build for a long while before you have enough HP to try a new one.

You have NEVER been able to try different builds while leveling. And since the open world is relatively easy, you don’t have to worry about them much until you’re 80. I never did.

From launch, you didn’t get traits unlocked fast enough to test any build unless you want to PvP.

That’s life in the big city.

I agree that is life in the cough “Big City” what he’s saying is that it didn’t have to be this way, if they has implemented a refund system not only would me and others not be in the current predicament but the game would have being better for new players.

Which ironically is one of the reasons they gave for not allowing any type of refund.

Drivrius.6159:

Vayne.8563:

Drivrius.6159:

Vayne.8563:

Ataramos.3279:

Right now, I would -not- list this game as one to try for a new person. Not because it’s overly complicated, but because you are so crippled in your early choices that if you make a choice that makes a character utterly unfun to play, it ruins the entire game and experience for you. I wouldn’t be able to convince any friend of mine who feels that way to give another class a try, and I really wouldn’t ever want to say ‘well start over again on another of the same class and spend all that time leveling again and just choose something else’, because who in their right mind would really feel like that was a good choice and not a ‘waste of time’.

‘Level to 80’ or ‘Go into PvP and experiment there’ are not options. One means hours of unsatisfactory gameplay to possibly find out at the end that a class just isn’t something you want to play at all leaving you with an overall terrible taste for the game, and the other is forcing people into a playmode that they may not want to ever engage in. They took the PvP zones out of world explorer for a reason, not everyone wants to touch that. This really feels like ANet entirely dropping the ball and not considering all of their players.

Do you not realize that a new person wouldn’t have this problem at all. Not even a little. That is, a new person would be able to put the points wherever they want.

You missed the part where he points out your can’t try different builds while lvling, since with no way to get HP refunded you’re stuck with a particular build for a long while before you have enough HP to try a new one.

You have NEVER been able to try different builds while leveling. And since the open world is relatively easy, you don’t have to worry about them much until you’re 80. I never did.

From launch, you didn’t get traits unlocked fast enough to test any build unless you want to PvP.

That’s life in the big city.

I agree that is life in the cough “Big City” what he’s saying is that it didn’t have to be this way, if they has implemented a refund system not only would me and others not be in the current predicament but the game would have being better for new players.

Which ironically is one of the reasons they gave for not allowing any type of refund.

Once you have traits unlocked, you can change them out of combat whenever you want. Because you unlock them all by 80 anyway, there’s no reason to offer the refund and in most MMOs I’ve played you can’t buy a skill and go back and say I want a different one. You can change builds, but not unlocks.

I played Rift. I picked skills as I leveled. If I made a mistake, Id’ have to wait to have more points to buy more skills. Do you know a lot of MMOs that don’t work this way?

ANet is not going to change their minds on this. Vayne is right about one thing, this is only a problem for those who had non-maxed characters going into the patch. 80’s are fine, and new characters are fine. ANet is not going to fix it, especially since some of the people affected have moved on.

That said, ANet chose to offer me spec choices, then take them away. Instead they offered me the choice of playing for however long with traits I did not want, or deleting the characters. It bothers me that I had to make a “lesser of two evils” choice. I chose the delete option. I don’t care how much or how little time it would take to replace the 60 points they squandered for me, I should not have had to make that choice at all. ANet chose players who don’t want to think over players who do. That’s what I cannot get past — though from recent trends, I should have expected it.

Drivrius.6159:

I see, you’re at a impasse, no way to refute my argument so you revert to personal attacks, it’s ok it only says A LOT about yourself.

None of it was a personal attack, it’s just the honest truth. A truth you can’t seem to handle. =/

Vayne.8563:

Drivrius.6159:

Vayne.8563:

Drivrius.6159:

Vayne.8563:

Ataramos.3279:

Right now, I would -not- list this game as one to try for a new person. Not because it’s overly complicated, but because you are so crippled in your early choices that if you make a choice that makes a character utterly unfun to play, it ruins the entire game and experience for you. I wouldn’t be able to convince any friend of mine who feels that way to give another class a try, and I really wouldn’t ever want to say ‘well start over again on another of the same class and spend all that time leveling again and just choose something else’, because who in their right mind would really feel like that was a good choice and not a ‘waste of time’.

‘Level to 80’ or ‘Go into PvP and experiment there’ are not options. One means hours of unsatisfactory gameplay to possibly find out at the end that a class just isn’t something you want to play at all leaving you with an overall terrible taste for the game, and the other is forcing people into a playmode that they may not want to ever engage in. They took the PvP zones out of world explorer for a reason, not everyone wants to touch that. This really feels like ANet entirely dropping the ball and not considering all of their players.

Do you not realize that a new person wouldn’t have this problem at all. Not even a little. That is, a new person would be able to put the points wherever they want.

You missed the part where he points out your can’t try different builds while lvling, since with no way to get HP refunded you’re stuck with a particular build for a long while before you have enough HP to try a new one.

You have NEVER been able to try different builds while leveling. And since the open world is relatively easy, you don’t have to worry about them much until you’re 80. I never did.

From launch, you didn’t get traits unlocked fast enough to test any build unless you want to PvP.

That’s life in the big city.

I agree that is life in the cough “Big City” what he’s saying is that it didn’t have to be this way, if they has implemented a refund system not only would me and others not be in the current predicament but the game would have being better for new players.

Which ironically is one of the reasons they gave for not allowing any type of refund.

Once you have traits unlocked, you can change them out of combat whenever you want. Because you unlock them all by 80 anyway, there’s no reason to offer the refund and in most MMOs I’ve played you can’t buy a skill and go back and say I want a different one. You can change builds, but not unlocks.

I played Rift. I picked skills as I leveled. If I made a mistake, Id’ have to wait to have more points to buy more skills. Do you know a lot of MMOs that don’t work this way?

SWTOR = You don’t like your path or want to change your utilities? It’s refundable.
TERA = glyphs that affect your skills no longer good enough? Changeable on the fly.
DDO = Feats dragging you down? Consult your friendly Mindflayer Fred (no seriously, I’m not making that up)

And so on, the majority of MMOs allow the refund of customization points.

But if all that is not enough, or not close enough to GW2.

ESO = you get more skills points, thanks to quests, leveling up and sky shards then you’ll ever need for your build, still they have a refund option for skills purchased with said skill points.

Drivrius.6159:

Vayne.8563:

Drivrius.6159:

Vayne.8563:

Drivrius.6159:

Vayne.8563:

Ataramos.3279:

Right now, I would -not- list this game as one to try for a new person. Not because it’s overly complicated, but because you are so crippled in your early choices that if you make a choice that makes a character utterly unfun to play, it ruins the entire game and experience for you. I wouldn’t be able to convince any friend of mine who feels that way to give another class a try, and I really wouldn’t ever want to say ‘well start over again on another of the same class and spend all that time leveling again and just choose something else’, because who in their right mind would really feel like that was a good choice and not a ‘waste of time’.

‘Level to 80’ or ‘Go into PvP and experiment there’ are not options. One means hours of unsatisfactory gameplay to possibly find out at the end that a class just isn’t something you want to play at all leaving you with an overall terrible taste for the game, and the other is forcing people into a playmode that they may not want to ever engage in. They took the PvP zones out of world explorer for a reason, not everyone wants to touch that. This really feels like ANet entirely dropping the ball and not considering all of their players.

Do you not realize that a new person wouldn’t have this problem at all. Not even a little. That is, a new person would be able to put the points wherever they want.

You missed the part where he points out your can’t try different builds while lvling, since with no way to get HP refunded you’re stuck with a particular build for a long while before you have enough HP to try a new one.

You have NEVER been able to try different builds while leveling. And since the open world is relatively easy, you don’t have to worry about them much until you’re 80. I never did.

From launch, you didn’t get traits unlocked fast enough to test any build unless you want to PvP.

That’s life in the big city.

I agree that is life in the cough “Big City” what he’s saying is that it didn’t have to be this way, if they has implemented a refund system not only would me and others not be in the current predicament but the game would have being better for new players.

Which ironically is one of the reasons they gave for not allowing any type of refund.

Once you have traits unlocked, you can change them out of combat whenever you want. Because you unlock them all by 80 anyway, there’s no reason to offer the refund and in most MMOs I’ve played you can’t buy a skill and go back and say I want a different one. You can change builds, but not unlocks.

I played Rift. I picked skills as I leveled. If I made a mistake, Id’ have to wait to have more points to buy more skills. Do you know a lot of MMOs that don’t work this way?

SWTOR = You don’t like your path or want to change your utilities? It’s refundable.
TERA = glyphs that affect your skills no longer good enough? Changeable on the fly.
DDO = Feats dragging you down? Consult your friendly Mindflayer Fred (no seriously, I’m not making that up)

And so on, the majority of MMOs allow the refund of customization points.

But if all that is not enough, or not close enough to GW2.

ESO = you get more skills points, thanks to quests, leveling up and sky shards then you’ll ever need for your build, still they have a refund option for skills purchased with said skill points.

Hmm I don’t remember DDO being quite so friendly. There were things I unlocked there that I couldn’t change. I could change the build, but not the unlocks.

That’s what we’re’ talking about here, unlocks, not builds.

Brian Ponder.9017:

Drivrius.6159:

I see, you’re at a impasse, no way to refute my argument so you revert to personal attacks, it’s ok it only says A LOT about yourself.

None of it was a personal attack, it’s just the honest truth. A truth you can’t seem to handle. =/

I’ll answer you, every MMO that I have ever played that had had a skill tree overhaul came with a free reset of all skills, we are talking Ragnarok Online, SWTOR, DDO, LOTRO, ESO and so on.

Never have I had to think deleting an existing character to be an option to the implementation of a new skill tree system.

Drivrius.6159:

Vayne.8563:

Drivrius.6159:

Vayne.8563:

Ataramos.3279:

Right now, I would -not- list this game as one to try for a new person. Not because it’s overly complicated, but because you are so crippled in your early choices that if you make a choice that makes a character utterly unfun to play, it ruins the entire game and experience for you. I wouldn’t be able to convince any friend of mine who feels that way to give another class a try, and I really wouldn’t ever want to say ‘well start over again on another of the same class and spend all that time leveling again and just choose something else’, because who in their right mind would really feel like that was a good choice and not a ‘waste of time’.

‘Level to 80’ or ‘Go into PvP and experiment there’ are not options. One means hours of unsatisfactory gameplay to possibly find out at the end that a class just isn’t something you want to play at all leaving you with an overall terrible taste for the game, and the other is forcing people into a playmode that they may not want to ever engage in. They took the PvP zones out of world explorer for a reason, not everyone wants to touch that. This really feels like ANet entirely dropping the ball and not considering all of their players.

Do you not realize that a new person wouldn’t have this problem at all. Not even a little. That is, a new person would be able to put the points wherever they want.

You missed the part where he points out your can’t try different builds while lvling, since with no way to get HP refunded you’re stuck with a particular build for a long while before you have enough HP to try a new one.

You have NEVER been able to try different builds while leveling. And since the open world is relatively easy, you don’t have to worry about them much until you’re 80. I never did.

From launch, you didn’t get traits unlocked fast enough to test any build unless you want to PvP.

That’s life in the big city.

I agree that is life in the cough “Big City” what he’s saying is that it didn’t have to be this way, if they has implemented a refund system not only would me and others not be in the current predicament but the game would have being better for new players.

Which ironically is one of the reasons they gave for not allowing any type of refund.

Yeah, no. This is wrong on a variety of levels. The expectation is that you will play the game. In playing the game you will level up. It’s easier than ever to level up. All the classes depicted in my sig are my 80s. More than half of them, probably three quarters of them I leveled, exclusively, by doing dailies and opening the occasional tome from daily rewards. Barely even playing the game at all.

In playing the game it’s expected that will probably include open world PvE. In the course of doing open world PvE you will be subjected to 189 hero challenges. It takes somewhere around 22 hero points to max out a circle. Between leveling and hero challenges you have plenty of time to experiment. Also, whether you have them unlocked or not, all traits and skills are viewable in the builds sheet, so there is the opportunity to plan and decide what you want to work toward.

With the addition of hero challenges it’s probable that, depending how you play, you could have everything unlocked in the 50s. It is pretty much guaranteed that by the mid 60s you should have anything you might actually want unlocked. We’re not even talking 80s here. There are so many points getting thrown around that this system is a cinch to clear.

And THAT is why there is no refund. You give a refund if it’s not possible to buy everything. If you will run out of points before you run out of things to spend points on then a refund makes sense. If you run out of things to buy long before you run out of points, then there is no point.

Vayne.8563:

Drivrius.6159:

Vayne.8563:

Drivrius.6159:

Vayne.8563:

Drivrius.6159:

Vayne.8563:

Ataramos.3279:

Right now, I would -not- list this game as one to try for a new person. Not because it’s overly complicated, but because you are so crippled in your early choices that if you make a choice that makes a character utterly unfun to play, it ruins the entire game and experience for you. I wouldn’t be able to convince any friend of mine who feels that way to give another class a try, and I really wouldn’t ever want to say ‘well start over again on another of the same class and spend all that time leveling again and just choose something else’, because who in their right mind would really feel like that was a good choice and not a ‘waste of time’.

‘Level to 80’ or ‘Go into PvP and experiment there’ are not options. One means hours of unsatisfactory gameplay to possibly find out at the end that a class just isn’t something you want to play at all leaving you with an overall terrible taste for the game, and the other is forcing people into a playmode that they may not want to ever engage in. They took the PvP zones out of world explorer for a reason, not everyone wants to touch that. This really feels like ANet entirely dropping the ball and not considering all of their players.

Do you not realize that a new person wouldn’t have this problem at all. Not even a little. That is, a new person would be able to put the points wherever they want.

You missed the part where he points out your can’t try different builds while lvling, since with no way to get HP refunded you’re stuck with a particular build for a long while before you have enough HP to try a new one.

You have NEVER been able to try different builds while leveling. And since the open world is relatively easy, you don’t have to worry about them much until you’re 80. I never did.

From launch, you didn’t get traits unlocked fast enough to test any build unless you want to PvP.

That’s life in the big city.

I agree that is life in the cough “Big City” what he’s saying is that it didn’t have to be this way, if they has implemented a refund system not only would me and others not be in the current predicament but the game would have being better for new players.

Which ironically is one of the reasons they gave for not allowing any type of refund.

Once you have traits unlocked, you can change them out of combat whenever you want. Because you unlock them all by 80 anyway, there’s no reason to offer the refund and in most MMOs I’ve played you can’t buy a skill and go back and say I want a different one. You can change builds, but not unlocks.

I played Rift. I picked skills as I leveled. If I made a mistake, Id’ have to wait to have more points to buy more skills. Do you know a lot of MMOs that don’t work this way?

SWTOR = You don’t like your path or want to change your utilities? It’s refundable.
TERA = glyphs that affect your skills no longer good enough? Changeable on the fly.
DDO = Feats dragging you down? Consult your friendly Mindflayer Fred (no seriously, I’m not making that up)

And so on, the majority of MMOs allow the refund of customization points.

But if all that is not enough, or not close enough to GW2.

ESO = you get more skills points, thanks to quests, leveling up and sky shards then you’ll ever need for your build, still they have a refund option for skills purchased with said skill points.

Hmm I don’t remember DDO being quite so friendly. There were things I unlocked there that I couldn’t change. I could change the build, but not the unlocks.

That’s what we’re’ talking about here, unlocks, not builds.

Fred can be used to re-specc feats (the unlocks you get every few lvls and depending on stats/class) with dragonshards, which are rare drops and rewards.

Stats and feats can be reset with hearts of wood, again rare drops and rewards.

Lastly skills trees and epic destinies can be reset for a small price.

And when the new skil ltree hit? Free hearts of wood for everyone.

Drivrius.6159:

Vayne.8563:

Drivrius.6159:

Vayne.8563:

Drivrius.6159:

Vayne.8563:

Ataramos.3279:

Right now, I would -not- list this game as one to try for a new person. Not because it’s overly complicated, but because you are so crippled in your early choices that if you make a choice that makes a character utterly unfun to play, it ruins the entire game and experience for you. I wouldn’t be able to convince any friend of mine who feels that way to give another class a try, and I really wouldn’t ever want to say ‘well start over again on another of the same class and spend all that time leveling again and just choose something else’, because who in their right mind would really feel like that was a good choice and not a ‘waste of time’.

‘Level to 80’ or ‘Go into PvP and experiment there’ are not options. One means hours of unsatisfactory gameplay to possibly find out at the end that a class just isn’t something you want to play at all leaving you with an overall terrible taste for the game, and the other is forcing people into a playmode that they may not want to ever engage in. They took the PvP zones out of world explorer for a reason, not everyone wants to touch that. This really feels like ANet entirely dropping the ball and not considering all of their players.

Do you not realize that a new person wouldn’t have this problem at all. Not even a little. That is, a new person would be able to put the points wherever they want.

You missed the part where he points out your can’t try different builds while lvling, since with no way to get HP refunded you’re stuck with a particular build for a long while before you have enough HP to try a new one.

You have NEVER been able to try different builds while leveling. And since the open world is relatively easy, you don’t have to worry about them much until you’re 80. I never did.

From launch, you didn’t get traits unlocked fast enough to test any build unless you want to PvP.

That’s life in the big city.

I agree that is life in the cough “Big City” what he’s saying is that it didn’t have to be this way, if they has implemented a refund system not only would me and others not be in the current predicament but the game would have being better for new players.

Which ironically is one of the reasons they gave for not allowing any type of refund.

Once you have traits unlocked, you can change them out of combat whenever you want. Because you unlock them all by 80 anyway, there’s no reason to offer the refund and in most MMOs I’ve played you can’t buy a skill and go back and say I want a different one. You can change builds, but not unlocks.

I played Rift. I picked skills as I leveled. If I made a mistake, Id’ have to wait to have more points to buy more skills. Do you know a lot of MMOs that don’t work this way?

SWTOR = You don’t like your path or want to change your utilities? It’s refundable.
TERA = glyphs that affect your skills no longer good enough? Changeable on the fly.
DDO = Feats dragging you down? Consult your friendly Mindflayer Fred (no seriously, I’m not making that up)

And so on, the majority of MMOs allow the refund of customization points.

But if all that is not enough, or not close enough to GW2.

ESO = you get more skills points, thanks to quests, leveling up and sky shards then you’ll ever need for your build, still they have a refund option for skills purchased with said skill points.

These games your describing are games where you run out of available resources before you run out of skills. That’s why there is a refund available. This is a different type of game. That system isn’t relevant here.

ESO is an exception, if that is an accurate depiction of both the game and character builds. I didn’t play it nearly long enough to learn that much because it was terrible.

Kal Spiro.9745:

And THAT is why there is no refund. You give a refund if it’s not possible to buy everything. If you will run out of points before you run out of things to spend points on then a refund makes sense. If you run out of things to buy long before you run out of points, then there is no point.

Tell that to ESO, the devs there went the extra mile to make it possible to reset skills while giving your more skill points then you could possible need.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Drivrius.6159:

Vayne.8563:

Drivrius.6159:

Vayne.8563:

Drivrius.6159:

Vayne.8563:

Ataramos.3279:

Right now, I would -not- list this game as one to try for a new person. Not because it’s overly complicated, but because you are so crippled in your early choices that if you make a choice that makes a character utterly unfun to play, it ruins the entire game and experience for you. I wouldn’t be able to convince any friend of mine who feels that way to give another class a try, and I really wouldn’t ever want to say ‘well start over again on another of the same class and spend all that time leveling again and just choose something else’, because who in their right mind would really feel like that was a good choice and not a ‘waste of time’.

‘Level to 80’ or ‘Go into PvP and experiment there’ are not options. One means hours of unsatisfactory gameplay to possibly find out at the end that a class just isn’t something you want to play at all leaving you with an overall terrible taste for the game, and the other is forcing people into a playmode that they may not want to ever engage in. They took the PvP zones out of world explorer for a reason, not everyone wants to touch that. This really feels like ANet entirely dropping the ball and not considering all of their players.

Do you not realize that a new person wouldn’t have this problem at all. Not even a little. That is, a new person would be able to put the points wherever they want.

You missed the part where he points out your can’t try different builds while lvling, since with no way to get HP refunded you’re stuck with a particular build for a long while before you have enough HP to try a new one.

You have NEVER been able to try different builds while leveling. And since the open world is relatively easy, you don’t have to worry about them much until you’re 80. I never did.

From launch, you didn’t get traits unlocked fast enough to test any build unless you want to PvP.

That’s life in the big city.

I agree that is life in the cough “Big City” what he’s saying is that it didn’t have to be this way, if they has implemented a refund system not only would me and others not be in the current predicament but the game would have being better for new players.

Which ironically is one of the reasons they gave for not allowing any type of refund.

Once you have traits unlocked, you can change them out of combat whenever you want. Because you unlock them all by 80 anyway, there’s no reason to offer the refund and in most MMOs I’ve played you can’t buy a skill and go back and say I want a different one. You can change builds, but not unlocks.

I played Rift. I picked skills as I leveled. If I made a mistake, Id’ have to wait to have more points to buy more skills. Do you know a lot of MMOs that don’t work this way?

SWTOR = You don’t like your path or want to change your utilities? It’s refundable.
TERA = glyphs that affect your skills no longer good enough? Changeable on the fly.
DDO = Feats dragging you down? Consult your friendly Mindflayer Fred (no seriously, I’m not making that up)

And so on, the majority of MMOs allow the refund of customization points.

But if all that is not enough, or not close enough to GW2.

ESO = you get more skills points, thanks to quests, leveling up and sky shards then you’ll ever need for your build, still they have a refund option for skills purchased with said skill points.

These games your describing are games where you run out of available resources before you run out of skills. That’s why there is a refund available. This is a different type of game. That system isn’t relevant here.

ESO is an exception, if that is an accurate depiction of both the game and character builds. I didn’t play it nearly long enough to learn that much because it was terrible.

Yeah in ESO by lvl 30+ you can have enough skill points to have a finished build, the only think stopping you is the lvl restrictions, just like GW2.

Hell crafting is recommended just so those skill points are not completely wasted.

Drivrius.6159:

Kal Spiro.9745:

And THAT is why there is no refund. You give a refund if it’s not possible to buy everything. If you will run out of points before you run out of things to spend points on then a refund makes sense. If you run out of things to buy long before you run out of points, then there is no point.

Tell that to ESO, the devs there went the extra mile to make it possible to reset skills while giving your more skill points then you could possible need.

ESO is a terrible game and not worth playing, so I won’t be telling anything to their devs because no extra miles they went through made up for everything else.

But I ask the question. More than you could possibly need, or more than you could possibly use? There are a lot of skills in that game and they split. Just because you can make a functional, even optimal build before you run out of points doesn’t mean you can’t still use those points.

I can make a fully worthwhile build by unlocking only one skill group and three trait lines. That doesn’t mean there aren’t more things for me to spend my points on.

Some of us won’t get to 80 soon, not for a lack of trying, we just don’t have the time to put in for it. Getting to 80 in a week seems crazy to me, you’d have to not try to enjoy the atmosphere at all, not really explore, play what 3-4 hours every night? That is a kitten-ton. That is- all- my free time.

Most of you are fine with it because it doesn’t affect you, that’s great. Stop trying to invalidate those of us who are being inconvenienced with this change. We’re right that it hurts us. I’m right that I’m going to have entire branches of unused skills/traits sitting on my characters for the next few months because ArenaNet decided against letting me choose.

It wasn’t a horrible decision overall but it does suck for some of us, so please stop telling us it doesn’t.

Drivrius.6159:

Kal Spiro.9745:

And THAT is why there is no refund. You give a refund if it’s not possible to buy everything. If you will run out of points before you run out of things to spend points on then a refund makes sense. If you run out of things to buy long before you run out of points, then there is no point.

Tell that to ESO, the devs there went the extra mile to make it possible to reset skills while giving your more skill points then you could possible need.

The devs went the extra mile and ESO are hardly ever said together in the same sentence. What you’re saying is ESO does one thing right and launched with pretty much everything done wrong. I could say the same about DDO. DDO last I looked had 2 people on their reddit.

Picking one thing that Anet did that you don’t like and trying to say this other company did it so it’s good is fine. But it’s misleading.

You have a problem so you’re trying to justify that it doesn’t have to be that way. But in this game it’s always been that way. You buy a skill and if you made a mistake you wait till you have points to buy a different skill. Because they’re all unlocked fairly quickly.

In DDO, you’re leveling to level 20 over a month or two. People level to 80 here in 3 days. Sure I agree if it was a long term problem, it might be worth putting resources into.

Even from a casual point of view, most casuals wont’ care, because most people pay very little attention to builds. And the open world is easy enough even without a build.

Vayne.8563:

Even from a casual point of view, most casuals wont’ care, because most people pay very little attention to builds. And the open world is easy enough even without a build.

It’s that very kind of condescending and flat out wrong statement that lead to the “no refunds, we choose your skills/specializations for you and spends HPs you don’t have” from ANET.

Claiming casual players don’t know or care about builds or are what? Unaware of skill calcs that exist in every MMO ever made? Is disingenuous at best insulting at worse.

The truth of the matter is that many of us have a problem with the way things were done, you guys don’t so you white knight ANET for a horrible decision, that’s all there is too it.

Drivrius.6159:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Drivrius.6159:

Arlee.7038:

Drivrius.6159:

“You guys know how every MMO we have ever played or even heard of refunds skill tree points when they make a major overhaul or sometimes even a small change to a skill within a tree?”

“Yeah well GW2 devs went the other route and spend them for you at seemingly random”

Once again, don’t blame the devs blame gd people who cried about losing their skills. Those people are the reason you are stuck with your temporary problem.

Drivrius.6159:

P.S. I have gained 5 lvls since the patch, not one Hero Point earned…

You only gain them on odd levels, and yes if you had more skills unlocked than you would have had in this system so you have a bit of a deficit. Still doesn’t change your problem is a temporary one.

Also still doesn’t change that my problem is being forced to play a character the way the devs want, not how I want…

I don’t care how temporary my problem is, when the only way to get around it is to play something I dislike.

This has nothing to do with the devs. The Devs didn’t go through each individual character and choose their build. They made an algorithm that weighed values of things. This method is invariably flawed for this precise reason. The flaw is just minor enough to not matter in the long run.

It has everything to do with the devs, they are the ones who opted for the algorithm rather then obvious solution.

The are also the ones who chose to not add a refund option and ultimately the ones who could fix that.

In the time it takes anet to “fix” your entirely temporary issue, you could reach a level where it’s a non-issue. But no, you decide to be a player hat flips out over something that would resolve itself in as little as a week of play. You already have the solutions available. It’s not Anet’s problem to give an unnecessary solution because you dont want to use what’s already there.

Basandra Skye.4031:

Drivrius.6159:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Drivrius.6159:

Arlee.7038:

Drivrius.6159:

“You guys know how every MMO we have ever played or even heard of refunds skill tree points when they make a major overhaul or sometimes even a small change to a skill within a tree?”

“Yeah well GW2 devs went the other route and spend them for you at seemingly random”

Once again, don’t blame the devs blame gd people who cried about losing their skills. Those people are the reason you are stuck with your temporary problem.

Drivrius.6159:

P.S. I have gained 5 lvls since the patch, not one Hero Point earned…

You only gain them on odd levels, and yes if you had more skills unlocked than you would have had in this system so you have a bit of a deficit. Still doesn’t change your problem is a temporary one.

Also still doesn’t change that my problem is being forced to play a character the way the devs want, not how I want…

I don’t care how temporary my problem is, when the only way to get around it is to play something I dislike.

This has nothing to do with the devs. The Devs didn’t go through each individual character and choose their build. They made an algorithm that weighed values of things. This method is invariably flawed for this precise reason. The flaw is just minor enough to not matter in the long run.

It has everything to do with the devs, they are the ones who opted for the algorithm rather then obvious solution.

The are also the ones who chose to not add a refund option and ultimately the ones who could fix that.

In the time it takes anet to “fix” your entirely temporary issue, you could reach a level where it’s a non-issue. But no, you decide to be a player hat flips out over something that would resolve itself in as little as a week of play. You already have the solutions available. It’s not Anet’s problem to give an unnecessary solution because you dont want to use what’s already there.

I’ve gained 6 lvls since the patch, still no HP other then challenges I have done because they spent more HPs then I had on skills/specialization I don’t want.

They want me to eat a **** sandwich to get to a point I can customize my own character? Fine, but I have being eating and eating with no end on sight…

Vayne.8563:

Do you not realize that a new person wouldn’t have this problem at all. Not even a little. That is, a new person would be able to put the points wherever they want.

And then they discover as they play that they really dislike the shouts they bought, but they saw a warrior using banners and hey maybe that’s a great idea…but then they don’t have the points to even try anything more than the most basic one for a not insignificant amount of time?

Suddenly that new player has the same problem. And made even worse in that they’re new, and not an older player like me who knows whats at endgame to dink around with. Even if they manage to be in a guild that reassures that they’ll have enough by 80, that is still asking that new player to slog through the rest of the levels until they get enough points to do what they wanted. And what if banners turned out to not be as fun as they thought? Now they have points in two places that will feel like a waste of time on a character they won’t be enjoying playing and will have little impetus to continue to play.

Sure, a new player might not care about that, just like you don’t care about it and my view. But just as you keep telling me that my view isn’t universal, NEITHER IS YOURS.

And this forum is for feedback, and it’s important to have dissenting voices like mine, who think this is a bad idea, and bring up angles that it really doesn’t seem that the devs had considered to the point it feels like they abandoned their previous oft stated ‘the whole game matters not just the end game’ viewpoint. WoW’s devs thought that removing flight from the most recent expansion was a -great- idea and fleshed out their reasoning, and only reversed that after people pointed out opposing viewpoints. While the ANet devs have become more secluded and do not reply as often as they used to, I like to think that they still care about our opinions.

Drivrius.6159:

Vayne.8563:

Even from a casual point of view, most casuals wont’ care, because most people pay very little attention to builds. And the open world is easy enough even without a build.

It’s that very kind of condescending and flat out wrong statement that lead to the “no refunds, we choose your skills/specializations for you and spends HPs you don’t have” from ANET.

Claiming casual players don’t know or care about builds or are what? Unaware of skill calcs that exist in every MMO ever made? Is disingenuous at best insulting at worse.

The truth of the matter is that many of us have a problem with the way things were done, you guys don’t so you white knight ANET for a horrible decision, that’s all there is too it.

It’s not disingenuous at all, and it’s a pretty well known fact. There’s even a quote somewhere from a dev about how few people had ever even been to the trait screen. You think the truth is insulting but I don’t think many people care about it, because many people have told me they don’t care about it. They throw some points in something if they bother, and they move on.

If you really think that most people pay real attention to traits/specializations, I don’t know what to tell you but the conversation is over. Because most people who’ve been around for a while know better.

Drivrius.6159:

Basandra Skye.4031:

Drivrius.6159:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Drivrius.6159:

Arlee.7038:

Drivrius.6159:

“You guys know how every MMO we have ever played or even heard of refunds skill tree points when they make a major overhaul or sometimes even a small change to a skill within a tree?”

“Yeah well GW2 devs went the other route and spend them for you at seemingly random”

Once again, don’t blame the devs blame gd people who cried about losing their skills. Those people are the reason you are stuck with your temporary problem.

Drivrius.6159:

P.S. I have gained 5 lvls since the patch, not one Hero Point earned…

You only gain them on odd levels, and yes if you had more skills unlocked than you would have had in this system so you have a bit of a deficit. Still doesn’t change your problem is a temporary one.

Also still doesn’t change that my problem is being forced to play a character the way the devs want, not how I want…

I don’t care how temporary my problem is, when the only way to get around it is to play something I dislike.

This has nothing to do with the devs. The Devs didn’t go through each individual character and choose their build. They made an algorithm that weighed values of things. This method is invariably flawed for this precise reason. The flaw is just minor enough to not matter in the long run.

It has everything to do with the devs, they are the ones who opted for the algorithm rather then obvious solution.

The are also the ones who chose to not add a refund option and ultimately the ones who could fix that.

In the time it takes anet to “fix” your entirely temporary issue, you could reach a level where it’s a non-issue. But no, you decide to be a player hat flips out over something that would resolve itself in as little as a week of play. You already have the solutions available. It’s not Anet’s problem to give an unnecessary solution because you dont want to use what’s already there.

I’ve gained 6 lvls since the patch, still no HP other then challenges I have done because they spent more HPs then I had on skills/specialization I don’t want.

They want me to eat a **** sandwich to get to a point I can customize my own character? Fine, but I have being eating and eating with no end on sight…

Maybe the issue is more about the distribution pattern of Hero Points as you level. I was leveling my Mesmer lately and didn’t receive any skill points for the few levels I got her. I would have expected something new to pop up at least between those levels.

Granted, I was basically running around with no traits before because I would have had to hunt for them. By default, I have more unlocked now than I ever would have before, so even with my points being auto-filled into Chaos it’s better than nothing. However, if we got 3-4 points every level or so, it would feel more progressive. It would make it seem exciting to get to that next level.

Ataramos.3279:

Vayne.8563:

Do you not realize that a new person wouldn’t have this problem at all. Not even a little. That is, a new person would be able to put the points wherever they want.

And then they discover as they play that they really dislike the shouts they bought, but they saw a warrior using banners and hey maybe that’s a great idea…but then they don’t have the points to even try anything more than the most basic one for a not insignificant amount of time?

Suddenly that new player has the same problem. And made even worse in that they’re new, and not an older player like me who knows whats at endgame to dink around with. Even if they manage to be in a guild that reassures that they’ll have enough by 80, that is still asking that new player to slog through the rest of the levels until they get enough points to do what they wanted. And what if banners turned out to not be as fun as they thought? Now they have points in two places that will feel like a waste of time on a character they won’t be enjoying playing and will have little impetus to continue to play.

Sure, a new player might not care about that, just like you don’t care about it and my view. But just as you keep telling me that my view isn’t universal, NEITHER IS YOURS.

And this forum is for feedback, and it’s important to have dissenting voices like mine, who think this is a bad idea, and bring up angles that it really doesn’t seem that the devs had considered to the point it feels like they abandoned their previous oft stated ‘the whole game matters not just the end game’ viewpoint. WoW’s devs thought that removing flight from the most recent expansion was a -great- idea and fleshed out their reasoning, and only reversed that after people pointed out opposing viewpoints. While the ANet devs have become more secluded and do not reply as often as they used to, I like to think that they still care about our opinions.

Funny story, and it’s already been mentioned by Vayne, that was always true. If you spent you skill points they were spent. If you didn’t buy the right skills you had to wait until you got more points to buy the skills you want. This isn’t different. It’s SO easy to get points that it remains a nonissue.

MiniEquine.6014:

Drivrius.6159:

Basandra Skye.4031:

Drivrius.6159:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Drivrius.6159:

Arlee.7038:

Drivrius.6159:

“You guys know how every MMO we have ever played or even heard of refunds skill tree points when they make a major overhaul or sometimes even a small change to a skill within a tree?”

“Yeah well GW2 devs went the other route and spend them for you at seemingly random”

Once again, don’t blame the devs blame gd people who cried about losing their skills. Those people are the reason you are stuck with your temporary problem.

Drivrius.6159:

P.S. I have gained 5 lvls since the patch, not one Hero Point earned…

You only gain them on odd levels, and yes if you had more skills unlocked than you would have had in this system so you have a bit of a deficit. Still doesn’t change your problem is a temporary one.

Also still doesn’t change that my problem is being forced to play a character the way the devs want, not how I want…

I don’t care how temporary my problem is, when the only way to get around it is to play something I dislike.

This has nothing to do with the devs. The Devs didn’t go through each individual character and choose their build. They made an algorithm that weighed values of things. This method is invariably flawed for this precise reason. The flaw is just minor enough to not matter in the long run.

It has everything to do with the devs, they are the ones who opted for the algorithm rather then obvious solution.

The are also the ones who chose to not add a refund option and ultimately the ones who could fix that.

In the time it takes anet to “fix” your entirely temporary issue, you could reach a level where it’s a non-issue. But no, you decide to be a player hat flips out over something that would resolve itself in as little as a week of play. You already have the solutions available. It’s not Anet’s problem to give an unnecessary solution because you dont want to use what’s already there.

I’ve gained 6 lvls since the patch, still no HP other then challenges I have done because they spent more HPs then I had on skills/specialization I don’t want.

They want me to eat a **** sandwich to get to a point I can customize my own character? Fine, but I have being eating and eating with no end on sight…

Maybe the issue is more about the distribution pattern of Hero Points as you level. I was leveling my Mesmer lately and didn’t receive any skill points for the few levels I got her. I would have expected something new to pop up at least between those levels.

Granted, I was basically running around with no traits before because I would have had to hunt for them. By default, I have more unlocked now than I ever would have before, so even with my points being auto-filled into Chaos it’s better than nothing. However, if we got 3-4 points every level or so, it would feel more progressive. It would make it seem exciting to get to that next level.

I’m actually not certain if point distribution is working as intended. I have only played one sub 80 since the patch and he was already level 69 before hand. So I didn’t pay a huge amount of attention to when he received points. But I recall getting a cluster of like 7 points and then nothing for a while, when I was expecting them every other level. Unless I’ve been reading that wrong too.

There’s two different issues here. One is the temporary transitive issue of people who will be back to normal in not too long a time, but the other is whether or not there should be a refund of points all the time for everyone.

I think the leveling is pretty fast in this game compared to most and the PvE is pretty easy. It’s probably not necessary. Not that I’d object if Anet put it in.

I just think they have other things to work on that are far more important than this.

Vayne.8563:

There’s two different issues here. One is the temporary transitive issue of people who will be back to normal in not too long a time, but the other is whether or not there should be a refund of points all the time for everyone.

I think the leveling is pretty fast in this game compared to most and the PvE is pretty easy. It’s probably not necessary. Not that I’d object if Anet put it in.

I just think they have other things to work on that are far more important than this.

What they probably should have done is implement an option when logging in to your character for the first time post-patch:

“Would you like the game to attempt to automatically choose skills and traits based on what you were previously using? Yes/No”

If no, it would just wipe your board clean and give you all the hero points you would have had. If yes, then it would have done what they did. There would still be upset people because they would have clicked “yes” and didn’t like what they got, or because they clicked “no” because they can’t figure out a build, but it would have given us a good choice to pick if we wanted.

MiniEquine.6014:

Vayne.8563:

There’s two different issues here. One is the temporary transitive issue of people who will be back to normal in not too long a time, but the other is whether or not there should be a refund of points all the time for everyone.

I think the leveling is pretty fast in this game compared to most and the PvE is pretty easy. It’s probably not necessary. Not that I’d object if Anet put it in.

I just think they have other things to work on that are far more important than this.

What they probably should have done is implement an option when logging in to your character for the first time post-patch:

“Would you like the game to attempt to automatically choose skills and traits based on what you were previously using? Yes/No”

If no, it would just wipe your board clean and give you all the hero points you would have had. If yes, then it would have done what they did. There would still be upset people because they would have clicked “yes” and didn’t like what they got, or because they clicked “no” because they can’t figure out a build, but it would have given us a good choice to pick if we wanted.

They probably should have. But I’m pretty sure they’re working under all sorts of time constraints. There’s a ton of stuff going on. It may seem like an easy thing to program, but it may not be.

At any rate, it’s done, and they’re probably not going to invest the time to fix it. I think people are actually inconvenienced by this, but I think the level of inconvenience for most people is generally acceptable, all things considered.

Think about what was already in the last patch. LA, the karka hunt, a jumping puzzle, QoL fixes, including the wallet, changes to the personal story and the whole spirit shard/skill point/hero point thing, skill changes and core specializations introduced. It’s a huge amount of stuff.

Sure it would be nice of Anet could have done everything…but sometimes you have to make decisions. It wasn’t important enough for them to do, because it was temporary. Only Anet knows the number of people affected, but I suspect it’s less than most people think, and of those people, it probably doesn’t affect many to the same degree as the OP.

MiniEquine.6014:

Vayne.8563:

There’s two different issues here. One is the temporary transitive issue of people who will be back to normal in not too long a time, but the other is whether or not there should be a refund of points all the time for everyone.

I think the leveling is pretty fast in this game compared to most and the PvE is pretty easy. It’s probably not necessary. Not that I’d object if Anet put it in.

I just think they have other things to work on that are far more important than this.

What they probably should have done is implement an option when logging in to your character for the first time post-patch:

“Would you like the game to attempt to automatically choose skills and traits based on what you were previously using? Yes/No”

If no, it would just wipe your board clean and give you all the hero points you would have had. If yes, then it would have done what they did. There would still be upset people because they would have clicked “yes” and didn’t like what they got, or because they clicked “no” because they can’t figure out a build, but it would have given us a good choice to pick if we wanted.

They specifically referenced this as an option. In this case they would have had to make the system maintain the old system, in order to retain the information until you make the choice, plus implementing the choice. According to them it would have taken them more than twice as long to implement this process and they needed to release the update.

Also you said it yourself, they still would have upset people. In fact they probably would end up upsetting twice as many people because now they don’t just have people who are upset with how it allocated points, but people who are upset that they have to allocate the points themselves. The fact that the people got to make the choice that upset them isn’t going to change anything. It would just change the argument against them, they’re still going to be just as angry and just as unreasonable as those that are angry now for this system.

MiniEquine.6014:

Vayne.8563:

There’s two different issues here. One is the temporary transitive issue of people who will be back to normal in not too long a time, but the other is whether or not there should be a refund of points all the time for everyone.

I think the leveling is pretty fast in this game compared to most and the PvE is pretty easy. It’s probably not necessary. Not that I’d object if Anet put it in.

I just think they have other things to work on that are far more important than this.

What they probably should have done is implement an option when logging in to your character for the first time post-patch:

“Would you like the game to attempt to automatically choose skills and traits based on what you were previously using? Yes/No”

If no, it would just wipe your board clean and give you all the hero points you would have had. If yes, then it would have done what they did. There would still be upset people because they would have clicked “yes” and didn’t like what they got, or because they clicked “no” because they can’t figure out a build, but it would have given us a good choice to pick if we wanted.

There’s a dev post about a week ago specifically explaining why they didn’t do this. It was quite a lot of extra work to implement an option, as opposed to everyone having it done for them/get to choose, for a minor issue that would eventually resolve itself. This complaint thread seems, by far, the outlier. I haven’t really seen anyone else ingame or on the forums complaining. So tbh I’m glad anet didn’t spend all that extra time to appease a very, very small minority on this “issue”.

Can’t say I even noticed to be honest... But then I have Skill/Hero points to spare and don’t really have any other use for them so... yeah. Sorry that you are having an issue with it, i wouldn’t let it put you off, all Game Devs make mistakes from time to time... some bigger than others. But they mean well!

As far as I remember, in ESO the reset option is required because, yeah you have more skill points you need.

But the problem is that you spend those skill points to specialize all your skills once. You have two choices. And you cannot learn both sides of the specialization. So if you choose the wrong one, the only option is to reset the talent and spend your points on the other side.

As for GW2, a reset option is in my opinion not worth it. Other games make you pay to reset. Well in GW2 you pay too : you just get new HP to learn the new talents. And HP are so easy to get it’s actually cheaper to just earn them to unlock what you wanted to try than to pay for a reset in other games.

So yeah, it’s not my usual choice (I do like my MMOs to have full free resets and stat respecs, at least in town) but GW2 takes so little effort to just learn everything I don’t think it’s worth fighting for a kind of respec feature.

stof.9341:

As far as I remember, in ESO the reset option is required because, yeah you have more skill points you need.

But the problem is that you spend those skill points to specialize all your skills once. You have two choices. And you cannot learn both sides of the specialization. So if you choose the wrong one, the only option is to reset the talent and spend your points on the other side.

As for GW2, a reset option is in my opinion not worth it. Other games make you pay to reset. Well in GW2 you pay too : you just get new HP to learn the new talents. And HP are so easy to get it’s actually cheaper to just earn them to unlock what you wanted to try than to pay for a reset in other games.

So yeah, it’s not my usual choice (I do like my MMOs to have full free resets and stat respecs, at least in town) but GW2 takes so little effort to just learn everything I don’t think it’s worth fighting for a kind of respec feature.

That’s a good point, I remember it split, but I forgot you chose one or the other, not both. That means it follows the same rules. The resource is limited, even though it’s unlimited, because you have to make a choice on where to spend it and once chosen the only way to take it back is to reset everything.

ESO is, therefore, no different than any of the others and is not relevant nor comparable to GW2 for that mechanic.

Based on players in this thread and the ones like it asking for a reset option to get the points that the game spent with apparently no rhyme or reason in many cases, I realism the largest problem with MMOs or games in general is the hardcore fanbois attacking people who have an criticism at all about their baby (the game).

billyb.1368:

Based on players in this thread and the ones like it asking for a reset option to get the points that the game spent with apparently no rhyme or reason in many cases, I realism the largest problem with MMOs or games in general is the hardcore fanbois attacking people who have an criticism at all about their baby (the game).

You can stop right there. This has nothing to do with fanboyism. This has to do with reality, game development, time, and cost analysis. It’s been explained, but the complainers just don’t want to hear it. The complainers never want to hear it because ultimately it leaves them in the same place they started.

It is absolutely not worth it to fix this problem in the way being demanded. It is a problem that will never come up again. It is a problem that will inevitably fix itself for the vast majority of those effected poorly. That means that the insignificant minority of people who were negatively effected and also can’t seem to work themselves out of the problem on their own are just out of luck.

There is literally no value in fixing this. The problems far outweigh the handful of people it would help.

NVM, been too long since I ran a CBA and my memory is faulty. Technically, the decision rested on the benefits side of the issue, but small matter. The cheapest option would still have been a blanket reset.

The real issue for me was implementing a choice-based system and choosing to favor those who did not want to use it over those who did.

IndigoSundown.5419:

This was not a cost analysis issue (was because it’s kind of moot at this point). If costs were the issue, the cheapest option would have been a blanket reset. Much easier to implement than to build a program to detect current choices and/or to design builds for people (which is what happened with L21-35’s.).

The real issue was implementing a choice-based system and choosing to favor those who did not want to use it over those who did.

Which at this point is a non-issue. Anet’s not going to take the time to implement some random feature maybe 10 people are going to use as a fix to their kittening. Everyone else the issue affected? By the time the “fix” is in the game, they’ve outleveled the criers and no longer have any issues. It’s a transitory problem. It WILL go away with time. Sadly that doesnt sit well with the “give me kitten now” crowd, so they’re clamoring on the forums for a fix that, ironically, would likely take longer to put in the game than if such people shut up and actually went leveling.

Sure it sounds rude (and having finished a kitten able 10 hour shift maybe 10 minutes ago, I dont care), but at this point you people are beating a dead horse. It has been what, 3 weeks since it happened? Even if you were a casual player that only gained 1, or nearly 1 level, a day, you’re almost guaranteed to have, surprisingly, casually played your way to “fixing” a “problem” that “everyone” had. Come on people, it’s time to cremate the horse, not beat it to an even finer smear.

IndigoSundown.5419:

This was not a cost analysis issue (was because it’s kind of moot at this point). If costs were the issue, the cheapest option would have been a blanket reset. Much easier to implement than to build a program to detect current choices and/or to design builds for people (which is what happened with L21-35’s.).

The real issue was implementing a choice-based system and choosing to favor those who did not want to use it over those who did.

It sure was a cost based issue. Anet reset the downlevel equations making it harder. So many people don’t pay attention to traits/specializations at all that if Anet reset everything as a blanket reset (as they’ve done in the past) you’d have a bunch of people running around, including 80s, who had no build. That would end up meaning lots of people in low level areas dying for no reason and maybe leaving the game. Yeah, lots of players, probably a majority, are that casual.

There would certainly be a cost to the game if a bunch of players left over this. Given the option, more people would probably have been affected negatively by not having a blanket reset.

Ideally they should have added a reset option, if it didn’t take more programming time to do it, but even I’ve run around with a character without traits, because I didn’t realize they were reset at certain points in time, so I can see how other players might have that problem…particularly in conjunction with changes to downleveling.

To me, the only thing ANet did wrong here was not tell people a little bit before the patch “we will be assigning you traits and skills based on what’s on your bars at the time of the patch.” Then people could have swapped points around to make sure they had the unlocks they wanted and gotten something close to their intended play.

I know I’d have dumped all my level 43 Ele’s points in Fire if I’d known my 2 points in Water (for the fall damage trait) would have meant I’d just have Water. But since some of his leveling came from map exploration, he had enough left over Hero Points to buy all but the GM Fire trait and then put that up as his one line. Still it would have been nice to know this would be the method, and a lot of these threads might not have happened. Or at least the responses would have been “but they warned you in advance” rather than “sing it brother!”

Actually, they did announce that they were going to ‘unlock and equip a similar build’ for our characters back on June 16th, when they released the patch notes early to some (one) fansite(s).

http://dulfy.net/2015/06/16/gw2-upcoming-june-23-patch-notes/

‘“What are Specializations?” Instead of investing trait points across varying trait lines, you can now select up to three different Specializations depending on your level. Each Specialization offers a variety of traits for you to choose from, which give you passive abilities that enhance the way you play. By default, you are given access to a base set of Specializations known as Core Specializations, which you can equip by clicking on the left-hand arrow of a Specialization slot. Specialization Slots unlock at level 21, 45, and 71. We have taken into account the skills and traits that you had currently selected on your character and made an effort to unlock and equip a build similar to what you had been running prior to this release.’

Why, so they did. Except that the only link I spotted to those notes were to some place other than Dulfy and due to some other content in the notes I thought it possible someone was doing a troll posting — and yes, then Dulfy had them but I put it in the “datamine” category such as the upcoming outfits she’ll occasionally post. So I didn’t peruse too closely.

Anyway as those were leaked, not deliberate dev communication, I don’t consider them an actual heads up like a short blog comment would have been. Nor is that one sentence enough to say “Please actively go put your most favored traits and utilities on your alts because that will determine what you first get unlocked.”

I’m not bashing ANet for this. I think there are far worse teething pains to endure in many a system changeover. I’m just saying that in hindsight I think that was a small error in how they handled this and the next time our current-but-easily-changeable set up will be changed they should alert us to some simple steps to help us be happy with the result. Much as they did with the Hero Points, actually. I had plenty of warning there to go out and build up my challenges on all my alts, and when they changed their minds about the extra 65 needed, hooray! I had bonus points! So why not give us a similar “here’s how to be ready” on the traits change?

Donari.5237:

Why, so they did. Except that the only link I spotted to those notes were to some place other than Dulfy and due to some other content in the notes I thought it possible someone was doing a troll posting — and yes, then Dulfy had them but I put it in the “datamine” category such as the upcoming outfits she’ll occasionally post. So I didn’t peruse too closely.

Anyway as those were leaked, not deliberate dev communication, I don’t consider them an actual heads up like a short blog comment would have been. Nor is that one sentence enough to say “Please actively go put your most favored traits and utilities on your alts because that will determine what you first get unlocked.”

I’m not bashing ANet for this. I think there are far worse teething pains to endure in many a system changeover. I’m just saying that in hindsight I think that was a small error in how they handled this and the next time our current-but-easily-changeable set up will be changed they should alert us to some simple steps to help us be happy with the result. Much as they did with the Hero Points, actually. I had plenty of warning there to go out and build up my challenges on all my alts, and when they changed their minds about the extra 65 needed, hooray! I had bonus points! So why not give us a similar “here’s how to be ready” on the traits change?

They weren’t leaked, they were sent out by the dev team to certain places and verified by other places who got them directly from Gaile.

Vayne.8563:

It sure was a cost based issue. Anet reset the downlevel equations making it harder. So many people don’t pay attention to traits/specializations at all that if Anet reset everything as a blanket reset (as they’ve done in the past) you’d have a bunch of people running around, including 80s, who had no build. That would end up meaning lots of people in low level areas dying for no reason and maybe leaving the game. Yeah, lots of players, probably a majority, are that casual.

There would certainly be a cost to the game if a bunch of players left over this. Given the option, more people would probably have been affected negatively by not having a blanket reset.

OK on costs, I got the point.

However, I’m not so sure these players you refer to would have been worse off. Down-scaling is not that different. If they paid no attention to trait builds under the old system, they were out (potentially) a lot of stat points. The patch gave them more base stats and ~30% more stats on gear. Who’s to say they would not have been better off (than before, in comparison to mobs) with just the extra stats?

Also, who’s to say that ANet was concerned about lost revenue? What they said was they were concerned about: people who would return from a long break and not remember their old build; and people who would not want to spend time learning the unlock and build interfaces. That would mean their primary concern was about people having fun. While that can have an effect on revenue, I see no reason to put words into their mouths when the words they used suffice.

Regardless of ANet motivations, two things are clear. (1) At this point, it would be foolhardy to implement any changes to the system. You’ve made this point several times and it’s a fair one; and (2) ANet chose to cater to one demographic over another. They chose one group’s fun over another group’s. It may even have been the correct call. Yes, they choose one group over another all the time, it’s the nature of the MMO beast. That does not mean people in the group that got the stick instead of the carrot has to like them for it — especially if they’ve gotten a lot more sticks than carrots over time.

Drivrius.6159:

Kal Spiro.9745:

And THAT is why there is no refund. You give a refund if it’s not possible to buy everything. If you will run out of points before you run out of things to spend points on then a refund makes sense. If you run out of things to buy long before you run out of points, then there is no point.

Tell that to ESO, the devs there went the extra mile to make it possible to reset skills while giving your more skill points then you could possible need.

Actually that’s a very good comparison to our current hero point system, but it really doesn’t work in favor of your argument.

ESO has tons of skill points, but the amount of “work” required in all aspects of the game is far far greater than what you need to do to gain hero points (again plenty of those around, far more than you ever need) in this game. My lvl 40 main in ESO did everything available to her up to that point, all quests that give skill points, all sky shards (similar to the hero challenges in this game to gather extra skill points) available in the areas I have access to, all dungeons available at my level etc., and I don’t even have close to enough skill points to get a decent spread of combat, adventuring and crafting abilities. Respeccing, while being available, is so utterly expensive for a mid-level, leveling character that it’s really out of the question.

My husband, who is much more into ESO than I am, has a V14 character with all main quests, all sky shards, a few dozend pvp ranks and a large part of the dungeon quests done, and even he doesn’t have enough skill points to experiment at will with different builds and stuff. Again, respeccing is available, but it’s so expensive at that point (not to mention the nuisance of having to respec everything, no saving of options or respeccing single trees) that most of the time it’s not worth to respec just to test if another morph of that skill would be more beneficial for a build.

Compared to what you have to go to to even get a halfway decent skill and ability selection in ESO, GW2s hero point system is paradise. Sure, my leveling characters (about 10 of them between lvl 20 and 60 when the trait system changes hit) have some skills and traits/traitlines selected I wouldn’t have chosen myself at that point, but even the impact on leveling to me feels a lot smaller than the missing skills on my ESO templar due to simply not enough skill points available during leveling. My lvl 40 ele now goes through the world with a full water traitline, and will take a while before she can change to trait evasive arcana, but there’s so much else I can to in that time, and before I know it she’ll have picked up another 60 hero points and the arcane trait tree is all hers. It’s not nearly as gameplay-hampering as finding out your weapon set-up doesn’t work in ESO and you have to go all the way through another weapon skill tree to finally get to a skill that may actually help you leveling because you just couldn’t judge the skills and weapons available without trying (and wasting skill points) yourself.

I get it, you have a very specific idea of what your character is supposed to do, but if the (comparatively minor) setback of having to “work” a few levels in GW2 to get (back) to your ideal trait/skill setup, then you should be running away from ESO screaming. There is a lot of flexibility and customization built into that game, but it comes at the price of “work” (aka time commitment) much much higher than any you will ever have to invest into GW2 character progression.

IndigoSundown.5419:

It bothers me that I had to make a “lesser of two evils” choice. I chose the delete option. I don’t care how much or how little time it would take to replace the 60 points they squandered for me, I should not have had to make that choice at all. ANet chose players who don’t want to think over players who do. That’s what I cannot get past — though from recent trends, I should have expected it.

But that’s just what ANet did: choose the “lesser of two evils”. Colin Johanson explained it (I think it was linked somewhere up-thread already): they had to choose between people that want to micro-manage their characters, and those that just want to go on playing without being forced to deal with the trait system first. I can see how you’re unhappy with falling into the “greater evil” part of the choice, but looking at the players around me I suspect ANet did a pretty good call here that actually inconveniences the least amount of people.

In general, those players that intensively use the trait system seem to have a better grasp of the game mechanics, too, and are probably way better equipped to deal with the nuisance of non-optimal traits and skills for a few levels that those that are overwhelmed by the choices given by the system anyway. We don’t have to like that we can’t tweak our characters to perfection right now (yes, I have quite a few leveling characters myself who aren’t exactly traited the way I would’ve chosen right now), but we can find ways to deal with it and overcome the nuisance. The people that just aren’t as deep into this game’s skill system (due to being relatively new to the game/the type of game in general, or those who just don’t care beyond wanting to experience the fantasy world around them) are, on the other hand, much better served by the conversion than if they’d been forced into respeccing.

Now if the part of the player base that actually cares for their traits and skills to the point where the right ones are crucial to leveling is more “worthy” of consideration than the part of the player base still trying to learn their characters and the game and happy to not having to deal with the details of the trait system just yet is open to debate, but ultimately it’s a question we can’t answer. It’s ANet’s responsibility to choose their “lesser of two evils”, and ours to deal with it in whatever way we see fit.

For some it’s a big deal, others (like me) just see it as an added challenge to their gameplay and character customization and find ways to deal with it. But we all should remember that ANet had to make a choice that had to benefit the majority of their playerbase, well knowing that no choice available would make everyone happy (including the “give respec or auto-allocation by mind-reading the player’s preferences so as to not inconvenience anyone by having to actively choose”, which certainly wouldn’t have made their shareholders happy considering the amount of extra work for very little benefit ).

spending development resources and choosing to design this system for players who supposedly dont care to even use traits (as pointed out by Vayne and others) is silly.

If they were playing without traits before, and so are not likely to care about them now, this system does nothing for them.

Similarly the returning player Colin mentions who might not remember their old build isnt being addressed because this system does not reproduce that build and is not intended to. The changes to the trait system would not be taking place if the goal was for players’ builds to NOT change.

Ultimately Anet, when deciding who to take into consideration, picked players who would not feel the negative effect, or care one way or the other, over those who do care and would feel the effect.

They spent money developing a tool to try simulating the previous trait choices of people who didnt actually have trait choices previously (according to posters in this thread) and who dont actually care if they have any traits or what those traits are if they happen to have some.