Hey Anet can you nerf Ice Bow yet?
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Because Ele is Ele, devs want them OP. You might as well ask why Thieves can permastealth, lol.
Because Ele is Ele, devs want them OP. You might as well ask why Thieves can permastealth, lol.
The sad thing is multiple eles in a group would still be awesome in PvE. They do damage rivaling any melee profession from 1200 range, they have more AoE, they can swap to healing mode when needed, then can provide various team utilities if they feel like speccing for it, and they can blast might.
There is no reason why ele would ever be a poor choice in a PvE group even without Ice Bow.
If you remove that PS warrior from you party, you will see a very noticeable drop in DPS regardless if you have 2 or 3 eles with icebows. The damage is just not there if you don’t combine it with damage multipliers from might, banners and traits that warriors has.
PvE and dungeons specific has a few core roles which need to be filled in order to do content fast. You need at minimum one warrior for DPS modifiers. One guardian for reflects and stability. One thief for stealth and skipping content. One OR Two eles for base DPS and fill out the party.
Remove any one of the specific roles and PvE content slows down. There have been many times where I or a party member switched from ele because the party lacked a warrior or thief or guardian, and each time we do so mid dungeon/fractal run it is imminently noticeable.
(edited by Belorn.2659)
If you remove that PS warrior from you party, you will see a very noticeable drop in DPS regardless if you have 2 or 3 eles with icebows. The damage is just not there if you don’t combine it with damage multipliers from might, banners and traits that warriors has.
PvE and dungeons specific has a few core roles which need to be filled in order to do content fast. You need at minimum one warrior for DPS modifiers. One guardian for reflects and stability. One thief for stealth and skipping content. One OR Two eles for base DPS and fill out the party.
Remove any one of the specific roles and PvE content slows down. There have been many times where I or a party member switched from ele because the party lacked a warrior or thief or guardian, and each time we do so mid dungeon/fractal run it is imminently noticeable.
The eles start the party at 25 might with blasts and warriors don’t do that so they’re not very relevant for the ice bow burst. The banners are relevant but even without banners ice bow is ridiculous.
/signed , skill 4 should be nerfed down to ranger barrage type numbers, right now this skill makes a mockery of everything.
just 2 more years. Consider Fiery Rush as ele nerf time standard
Main: Warrior|Character counter: 16
Ice Bow #4 is fine – it’s good player tactics and combos that make the damage work.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
/signed , skill 4 should be nerfed down to ranger barrage type numbers, right now this skill makes a mockery of everything.
Isn’t that the point of it having elite status?
Casteless Wind [Guild Wars 2]
The Secksy Monk [Guild Wars 1]
Stormbluff Isle – Storm Slayer Dragons [SDS]
The Secksy Monk [Guild Wars 1]
Stormbluff Isle – Storm Slayer Dragons [SDS]
/signed , skill 4 should be nerfed down to ranger barrage type numbers, right now this skill makes a mockery of everything.
Isn’t that the point of it having elite status?
It’s not an elite skill.
The elite conjure sucks, does less damage than ice bow.
Fine in PvP. Wont get nerfed.
Ice Bow #4 is fine – it’s good player tactics and combos that make the damage work.
If that were true we could replace the eles with other professions and get the same damage. We can’t.
Also, it’s not fine when you kill bosses before they use a single attack.
Fine in PvP. Wont get nerfed.
Then I guess things like well of suffering which deal less damage than ice bow 4 have room to be buffed to the same level of damage. it would be fine in pvp right??
Game gets balanced in PvP… I hate it, but it wont change…
Solution:
Instanced content (story, dungeons, fractals) should scale based on “stats over average,” where a baseline is used as the median / ideal level of power.
Thus, rather than needing to throw a million Elite-this and Champion-that at us, groups that use highly optimized builds and are running full exotic and ascended gear would actually be faced with a harder run, because their “baseline” is now significantly above the target.
As it stands, content seems to ignore just how much damage (from skills AND conditions) that players can dish out, and I can reiterate what the OP says. I’ve pugged way too many dungeons and even a few fractals where a conjure-spec’d elementalist (or two) with Ice Bow would destroy even Legendary foes with relative ease, often in a fraction of the time anyone could in a classic all-out zerg rush.
This solution wouldn’t work for PvE overworld maps (downscaling is already too buggy without introducing a fluctuating power threshold that’s based on the aggregate of all present players), but for the actual “hardcore” content? Yeah. It could definitely help.
The eles start the party at 25 might with blasts and warriors don’t do that so they’re not very relevant for the ice bow burst. The banners are relevant but even without banners ice bow is ridiculous.
If you believe that, try do a fractal 50 without a warrior and bring 3 eles. I remember someone doing the calculation what banners did, and it came down to about 33% of the party total damage output.
A party with a warrior and 2 eles will clear pve faster, have higher initial dps for the first 10s, and higher sustained dps after that than a party with 3 eles. What makes ele dps good is the party modifiers that other classes brings and if you want evidence for that, just take a look at speed runs, party search for dungeons, or just the average fractal 50 party. 1 warrior is required, while multiple eles is optional. If ice bow was the be-all and end-all for dps, then all the speed records should be 5 eles. They are not.
Huh?
It is not like ice bow is a permanent weapon or something. It is a skill. Since it is part of several related skills you would have to basically lobotomize eles to change all of them. Then you would have to balance them in some other way people would complain about.
The eles start the party at 25 might with blasts and warriors don’t do that so they’re not very relevant for the ice bow burst. The banners are relevant but even without banners ice bow is ridiculous.
If you believe that, try do a fractal 50 without a warrior and bring 3 eles. I remember someone doing the calculation what banners did, and it came down to about 33% of the party total damage output.
A party with a warrior and 2 eles will clear pve faster, have higher initial dps for the first 10s, and higher sustained dps after that than a party with 3 eles. What makes ele dps good is the party modifiers that other classes brings and if you want evidence for that, just take a look at speed runs, party search for dungeons, or just the average fractal 50 party. 1 warrior is required, while multiple eles is optional. If ice bow was the be-all and end-all for dps, then all the speed records should be 5 eles. They are not.
This really doesn’t change the problem. The ice bow provides an ability with a vastly overpowered base damage. Of course you want to scale it up with buffs but that doesn’t make it any less overpowered.
Look at it this way, would you be able to come close to that damage if you kept the warrior but you replaced the ice bow eles with say, well of suffering necros, or just other warriors?
and btw I just did a run with my warrior and we had 2 eles, and nobody even bothered to carry my other banner between fights (So I guess my bad for dropping them on trash assuming somebody would carry them) so I ended up only being able to bring strength banner to most of the fights. It didn’t really matter, the bosses died in the first round of burst.
(edited by Khristophoros.7194)
It’s disgusting how much more damage the 4 does compared to everything else in the game.
I mostly do random pugs for PvE content so I get to see the difference between different speed groups. Sometimes it’s a normal group and things go down at what seems to be a reasonable speed, like the bosses actually do a few rotations of their abilities. That seems like ehhh it’s not difficult but at least there was a fight.
Then every now and then you get a pug with 2 eles AND the whole group is full zerk AND both eles bring ice bows AND 4 people actually use them. I know, it should be like this every time but you know, pugs. heh.
So anyway you get that group and the bosses don’t get to do their abilities. They just die instantly. You’re not fighting stuff. You’re just pressing 4 and collecting loot.
How are you going to make “challenging” content when the damage disparity between casual groups and hardcore groups is this insane? You’ll make the content accessible to the majority of the playerbase of course, which means that it’ll still end up being destroyed in 3-5 seconds by an optimized team comp compared to like 15-30 seconds for a casual anything goes group.
Like I just don’t get how that’s supposed to work. It can’t be considered challenging when all you have to do is bring 2 eles and drop 4x icebow 4.
Furthermore, leaving icebow alone goes against everything you’ve done in the past. You nerfed Quickness in general because it trivialized PvE challenges. You nerfed Firey Greatsword spin for the same reason.
Why are you leaving Icebow in a state that completely breaks the game?
Try using icebow 4 without linecast exploit and damage mods from your party on small or medium size target (more than half of pve) and check your combat log. If you are lucky you will see numbers a bit higher than your AA chain.
Not sure why it should be nerfed? It has a pretty long cooldown. If people had their way we’d all be hitting for 3 damage a hit with every attack and all encounters would take 5 hours.
Huh?
It is not like ice bow is a permanent weapon or something. It is a skill. Since it is part of several related skills you would have to basically lobotomize eles to change all of them. Then you would have to balance them in some other way people would complain about.
All they have to do is nerf the damage dealt by the 4th skill on the ice bow. What are you on about?
The better question is, why are people demanding the game be rebalanced around obsolete, 3 year old content that’s been on farm status for nearly 18 months?
Zelendel
Not sure why it should be nerfed? It has a pretty long cooldown. If people had their way we’d all be hitting for 3 damage a hit with every attack and all encounters would take 5 hours.
Nice hyperbole that contributes nothing at all to the discussion. Very insightful.
The better question is, why are people demanding the game be rebalanced around obsolete, 3 year old content that’s been on farm status for nearly 18 months?
My point with this thread is that if you have such a disparity in damage between an optimized group and a casual group, how are you going to design challenging content (that they’ve promised) that fits both of the following criteria: 1) Doable by the casual group and 2) doesn’t die instantly to the optimized group
And btw I’m not saying people should be able to do challenging content without being skilled enough for it. I mean that party composition shouldn’t be as important as it is. Anet wants us to be able to run many different party compositions. They actually failed at that because metazerk is so much stronger than anything else. It just hasn’t really mattered yet because the current content is easy enough to be done with weak team comps.
And the biggest offender is ice bow.
(edited by Khristophoros.7194)
If you feel that it is making your gaming experience less challenging then simply form a group that don’t use them.
Not all players are top shelf, some are new, or very young or old, some are handicapped. smaller guilds often have trouble building a team and shy away from pugs, but guess what? They all bought the game just like you, and if it helps them to experience the content that they have purchased then they are entitled to it regardless if those that really don’t need things like the ice bow decide to use it anyhow.
(edited by Kamara.4187)
If you feel that it is making your gaming experience less challenging then simply form a group that don’t use them.
Not all players are top shelf, some are new, or very young or old, some are handicapped. smaller guilds often have trouble building a team and shy away from pugs, but guess what? They all bought the game just like you, and if it helps them to experience the content that they have purchased then they are entitled to it regardless if those that really don’t need it are using it as well.
My concern is that they’re going to design content that’s easy enough for weak team comps, then everyone will just run meta and smash the content. And why would you run something weak when it’s easy to run something strong?
And what if for whatever reason I wanted to handicap myself to experience the challenge and then some ele joins the pug and ruins it by dropping ice bows every fight?
how are you going to design challenging content (that they’ve promised) that fits both of the following criteria: 1) Doable by the casual group and 2) doesn’t die instantly to the optimized group.
You don’t make content that fits both of those. It is contradictory. It is either challenging or it is easy. That is Anets biggest fault. They keep trying to make content that appeases both parties but it simply isn’t possible. The only true solution is to make two versions of each content one easy mode and one hard mode. But then the problem comes that people will just do the easy mode for the rewards anyway because the other fault Anet has is that they won’t make the more difficult content any more rewarding than the faceroll content so the point of trying goes out the window.
The better question is, why are people demanding the game be rebalanced around obsolete, 3 year old content that’s been on farm status for nearly 18 months?
My point with this thread is that if you have such a disparity in damage between an optimized group and a casual group, how are you going to design challenging content (that they’ve promised) that fits both of the following criteria: 1) Doable by the casual group and 2) doesn’t die instantly to the optimized group
And the biggest offender is ice bow.
Honestly, my definition of challenging entails some % of the player base simply flat out failing because it’s not quite their speed. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. When I fail at something I want to get better and get past it. That’s the whole point of a challenge. If any random assortment of players doing whatever they want can beat Anet’s new CGC, then there is no chance whatsoever of it being an actual challenge for guild groups/premades. If the design is good, icebow will have no impact on pass/fail in HoT.
Zelendel
The better question is, why are people demanding the game be rebalanced around obsolete, 3 year old content that’s been on farm status for nearly 18 months?
My point with this thread is that if you have such a disparity in damage between an optimized group and a casual group, how are you going to design challenging content (that they’ve promised) that fits both of the following criteria: 1) Doable by the casual group and 2) doesn’t die instantly to the optimized group
And the biggest offender is ice bow.
Honestly, my definition of challenging entails some % of the player base simply flat out failing because it’s not quite their speed. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. When I fail at something I want to get better and get past it. That’s the whole point of a challenge. If any random assortment of players doing whatever they want can beat Anet’s new CGC, then there is no chance whatsoever of it being an actual challenge for guild groups/premades. If the design is good, icebow will have no impact on pass/fail in HoT.
That would be fine if it was about skill, but not if it’s just simply about which team comp you choose.
So how do you design the content so that ice bow has no impact? We’re talking about one skill just happens to deal way more damage than any other skill in the game. How do you just make that ok?
how are you going to design challenging content (that they’ve promised) that fits both of the following criteria: 1) Doable by the casual group and 2) doesn’t die instantly to the optimized group.
You don’t make content that fits both of those. It is contradictory. It is either challenging or it is easy. That is Anets biggest fault. They keep trying to make content that appeases both parties but it simply isn’t possible. The only true solution is to make two versions of each content one easy mode and one hard mode. But then the problem comes that people will just do the easy mode for the rewards anyway because the other fault Anet has is that they won’t make the more difficult content any more rewarding than the faceroll content so the point of trying goes out the window.
And this is where your wrong. They are in the business of selling games to as many people as they can appeal to because it takes years to develop a game before it will even see a profit.
It always amazes me how many people can’t get beyond the island of “their own game play” ….
The better question is, why are people demanding the game be rebalanced around obsolete, 3 year old content that’s been on farm status for nearly 18 months?
My point with this thread is that if you have such a disparity in damage between an optimized group and a casual group, how are you going to design challenging content (that they’ve promised) that fits both of the following criteria: 1) Doable by the casual group and 2) doesn’t die instantly to the optimized group
And the biggest offender is ice bow.
Honestly, my definition of challenging entails some % of the player base simply flat out failing because it’s not quite their speed. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. When I fail at something I want to get better and get past it. That’s the whole point of a challenge. If any random assortment of players doing whatever they want can beat Anet’s new CGC, then there is no chance whatsoever of it being an actual challenge for guild groups/premades. If the design is good, icebow will have no impact on pass/fail in HoT.
That would be fine if it was about skill, but not if it’s just simply about which team comp you choose.
So how do you design the content so that ice bow has no impact? We’re talking about one skill just happens to deal way more damage than any other skill in the game. How do you just make that ok?
1. The condi meta. We have everthing but a direct quote from the Lod God Colin telling us that direct damage is not going to be as revelant in HoT.
2. Mechanics. There are no significantly challenging mechanics in the game that can’t be bypassed by damage and group defense. Put a greater emphasis on what players are doing, not how damage is being done, and icebow is nerfed by default.
Just my thoughts.
Zelendel
The better question is, why are people demanding the game be rebalanced around obsolete, 3 year old content that’s been on farm status for nearly 18 months?
My point with this thread is that if you have such a disparity in damage between an optimized group and a casual group, how are you going to design challenging content (that they’ve promised) that fits both of the following criteria: 1) Doable by the casual group and 2) doesn’t die instantly to the optimized group
And the biggest offender is ice bow.
Honestly, my definition of challenging entails some % of the player base simply flat out failing because it’s not quite their speed. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. When I fail at something I want to get better and get past it. That’s the whole point of a challenge. If any random assortment of players doing whatever they want can beat Anet’s new CGC, then there is no chance whatsoever of it being an actual challenge for guild groups/premades. If the design is good, icebow will have no impact on pass/fail in HoT.
That would be fine if it was about skill, but not if it’s just simply about which team comp you choose.
So how do you design the content so that ice bow has no impact? We’re talking about one skill just happens to deal way more damage than any other skill in the game. How do you just make that ok?
1. The condi meta. We have everthing but a direct quote from the Lod God Colin telling us that direct damage is not going to be as revelant in HoT.
2. Mechanics. There are no significantly challenging mechanics in the game that can’t be bypassed by damage and group defense. Put a greater emphasis on what players are doing, not how damage is being done, and icebow is nerfed by default.Just my thoughts.
Well you always need damage. So why would you choose an option that deals less damage?
So they make condi better and give everything tons of armor. Great, now all the power builds suck. That seems like an even worse situation to me.
Why not just nerf that one power skill (ice bow 4) that is way out of line, then you don’t have to give everything tons of armor and people can still enjoy various different power builds.
Like from what you’re saying, it seems like you think giving everything 10k armor would fix the situation because it would make ice bow weaker. But do you realize that every other skill that uses power damage would be even weaker to the point of just being a total joke?
If you level every skills to do the same damage this game is going to be boring as hell. If they were to nerf Ice bow then you would just have another useless skill nobody uses.
So Ice bow is fine, it does what it is supposed to do in pve, you use it once and then drop it. It has a smaller radius and the skills have longer recharge and shorter range than ranger bow. It is too unreliable for competitive play, and it makes up for the fact the elementalist class has no good elite skills.
At this point I wouldn’t mind if they made it an elite skill.
The better question is, why are people demanding the game be rebalanced around obsolete, 3 year old content that’s been on farm status for nearly 18 months?
My point with this thread is that if you have such a disparity in damage between an optimized group and a casual group, how are you going to design challenging content (that they’ve promised) that fits both of the following criteria: 1) Doable by the casual group and 2) doesn’t die instantly to the optimized group
And the biggest offender is ice bow.
Honestly, my definition of challenging entails some % of the player base simply flat out failing because it’s not quite their speed. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. When I fail at something I want to get better and get past it. That’s the whole point of a challenge. If any random assortment of players doing whatever they want can beat Anet’s new CGC, then there is no chance whatsoever of it being an actual challenge for guild groups/premades. If the design is good, icebow will have no impact on pass/fail in HoT.
That would be fine if it was about skill, but not if it’s just simply about which team comp you choose.
So how do you design the content so that ice bow has no impact? We’re talking about one skill just happens to deal way more damage than any other skill in the game. How do you just make that ok?
1. The condi meta. We have everthing but a direct quote from the Lod God Colin telling us that direct damage is not going to be as revelant in HoT.
2. Mechanics. There are no significantly challenging mechanics in the game that can’t be bypassed by damage and group defense. Put a greater emphasis on what players are doing, not how damage is being done, and icebow is nerfed by default.Just my thoughts.
Well you always need damage. So why would you choose an option that deals less damage?
So they make condi better and give everything tons of armor. Great, now all the power builds suck. That seems like an even worse situation to me.
Why not just nerf that one power skill (ice bow 4) that is way out of line, then you don’t have to give everything tons of armor and people can still enjoy various different power builds.
Like from what you’re saying, it seems like you think giving everything 10k armor would fix the situation because it would make ice bow weaker. But do you realize that every other skill that uses power damage would be even weaker to the point of just being a total joke?
Not all bosses would be like that, as purely vulnerable to condi. You also neglected the second part of my post. Mechanics. You can theoretically design a boss with 1 hit point that dies to single attack from a level 1 character. The challenge in such a fight would be actually landing that one hit. Breaking shields through skill activations, not damage impacts, interrupting key skills, positioning to achieve a combat effect, ect. There are tons of ways of making how much damage is dealt less relevant while still building challenging group content. There should be fights where icebow shines, just not every single fight.
It’s not the skill itself, it’s the content.
Zelendel
I’m an Ele main. Personally, I hate Conjures. I’m generally not a fan of abilities that lock you out of your weapon skills, but Conjures are particularly egregious because Eles have so many weapon skills to forego. I know Ice Bow 4 is objectively bananas but it bores me to tears, so I don’t use it.
What I’m basically saying is I would be totally ok with Ice Bow getting nerfed right in its stupid face. Though if it has to steal one of our utility skill spots, I’d rather it be reworked into a support weapon.
I main Ele and Necro, though I have an alt of each profession at level 80.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.
The better question is, why are people demanding the game be rebalanced around obsolete, 3 year old content that’s been on farm status for nearly 18 months?
My point with this thread is that if you have such a disparity in damage between an optimized group and a casual group, how are you going to design challenging content (that they’ve promised) that fits both of the following criteria: 1) Doable by the casual group and 2) doesn’t die instantly to the optimized group
And the biggest offender is ice bow.
Honestly, my definition of challenging entails some % of the player base simply flat out failing because it’s not quite their speed. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. When I fail at something I want to get better and get past it. That’s the whole point of a challenge. If any random assortment of players doing whatever they want can beat Anet’s new CGC, then there is no chance whatsoever of it being an actual challenge for guild groups/premades. If the design is good, icebow will have no impact on pass/fail in HoT.
That would be fine if it was about skill, but not if it’s just simply about which team comp you choose.
So how do you design the content so that ice bow has no impact? We’re talking about one skill just happens to deal way more damage than any other skill in the game. How do you just make that ok?
1. The condi meta. We have everthing but a direct quote from the Lod God Colin telling us that direct damage is not going to be as revelant in HoT.
2. Mechanics. There are no significantly challenging mechanics in the game that can’t be bypassed by damage and group defense. Put a greater emphasis on what players are doing, not how damage is being done, and icebow is nerfed by default.Just my thoughts.
Well you always need damage. So why would you choose an option that deals less damage?
So they make condi better and give everything tons of armor. Great, now all the power builds suck. That seems like an even worse situation to me.
Why not just nerf that one power skill (ice bow 4) that is way out of line, then you don’t have to give everything tons of armor and people can still enjoy various different power builds.
Like from what you’re saying, it seems like you think giving everything 10k armor would fix the situation because it would make ice bow weaker. But do you realize that every other skill that uses power damage would be even weaker to the point of just being a total joke?
Not all bosses would be like that, as purely vulnerable to condi. You also neglected the second part of my post. Mechanics. You can theoretically design a boss with 1 hit point that dies to single attack from a level 1 character. The challenge in such a fight would be actually landing that one hit. Breaking shields through skill activations, not damage impacts, interrupting key skills, positioning to achieve a combat effect, ect. There are tons of ways of making how much damage is dealt less relevant while still building challenging group content. There should be fights where icebow shines, just not every single fight.
It’s not the skill itself, it’s the content.
Why does it have to be so complicated when you could just nerf one ability? You’re acting like ice bow is some kind of special thing holding the very fabric of space-time together so we have to avoid nerfing it at all costs and make super convoluted content around it.
If you level every skills to do the same damage this game is going to be boring as hell. If they were to nerf Ice bow then you would just have another useless skill nobody uses.
So Ice bow is fine, it does what it is supposed to do in pve, you use it once and then drop it. It has a smaller radius and the skills have longer recharge and shorter range than ranger bow. It is too unreliable for competitive play, and it makes up for the fact the elementalist class has no good elite skills.
At this point I wouldn’t mind if they made it an elite skill.
Elite and 180 cooldown, it would still be meta.
Working as intended so no nerf needed if the Dev’s felt it is too strong it would had been nerfed by now.
“If only ANet had some kind of forum they could use to communicate with us……”
“ANet. They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity to not mess up.”
Mod “Posts created to cause unrest with unfounded claims are not allowed” lmao
“ANet. They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity to not mess up.”
Mod “Posts created to cause unrest with unfounded claims are not allowed” lmao
In order to do more damage than AA icebow needs to meet the following conditions:
1. Stationary target
2. Large hit box
3. Group wide buffs
The only place these 3 conditions are met are in 3 year old farm status dungeons. Definitely not something we should be balancing the game on. Ice Bow is fine. If it was as OP as you seem to think it is people would be using it to 1-shot people in PvP and WvW… yet that ability doesn’t even make it onto the bar of ele’s in those situations…
Not that nerfing an outlier is necessarily a bad thing, if it really is an outlier. When one looks at raw numbers, though (i.e., base damage, number of hits, skill coefficient) there are other skills that have much better base damage and better coefficients. That leads me to wonder if the number of hits is not the cause of the perception.
I’m also wondering if the issue is not that skill’s numbers, but that the situations where it works best are perfect storms based on being reliably able to maximize the player stats that feed into damage, and mobs being dumb enough to stand there and take a lot of the hits. If you really want to prevent optimized groups from easy content completion, you should be looking at why IB4 does so much more damage in that group than it does in a non-optimized group, and why the AI allows a skill that hits multiple times to do so.
The better question is, why are people demanding the game be rebalanced around obsolete, 3 year old content that’s been on farm status for nearly 18 months?
My point with this thread is that if you have such a disparity in damage between an optimized group and a casual group, how are you going to design challenging content (that they’ve promised) that fits both of the following criteria: 1) Doable by the casual group and 2) doesn’t die instantly to the optimized group
And the biggest offender is ice bow.
Honestly, my definition of challenging entails some % of the player base simply flat out failing because it’s not quite their speed. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. When I fail at something I want to get better and get past it. That’s the whole point of a challenge. If any random assortment of players doing whatever they want can beat Anet’s new CGC, then there is no chance whatsoever of it being an actual challenge for guild groups/premades. If the design is good, icebow will have no impact on pass/fail in HoT.
That would be fine if it was about skill, but not if it’s just simply about which team comp you choose.
So how do you design the content so that ice bow has no impact? We’re talking about one skill just happens to deal way more damage than any other skill in the game. How do you just make that ok?
1. The condi meta. We have everthing but a direct quote from the Lod God Colin telling us that direct damage is not going to be as revelant in HoT.
2. Mechanics. There are no significantly challenging mechanics in the game that can’t be bypassed by damage and group defense. Put a greater emphasis on what players are doing, not how damage is being done, and icebow is nerfed by default.Just my thoughts.
Well you always need damage. So why would you choose an option that deals less damage?
So they make condi better and give everything tons of armor. Great, now all the power builds suck. That seems like an even worse situation to me.
Why not just nerf that one power skill (ice bow 4) that is way out of line, then you don’t have to give everything tons of armor and people can still enjoy various different power builds.
Like from what you’re saying, it seems like you think giving everything 10k armor would fix the situation because it would make ice bow weaker. But do you realize that every other skill that uses power damage would be even weaker to the point of just being a total joke?
Not all bosses would be like that, as purely vulnerable to condi. You also neglected the second part of my post. Mechanics. You can theoretically design a boss with 1 hit point that dies to single attack from a level 1 character. The challenge in such a fight would be actually landing that one hit. Breaking shields through skill activations, not damage impacts, interrupting key skills, positioning to achieve a combat effect, ect. There are tons of ways of making how much damage is dealt less relevant while still building challenging group content. There should be fights where icebow shines, just not every single fight.
It’s not the skill itself, it’s the content.
Why does it have to be so complicated when you could just nerf one ability? You’re acting like ice bow is some kind of special thing holding the very fabric of space-time together so we have to avoid nerfing it at all costs and make super convoluted content around it.
Again, it’s not the skill itself that’s the problem. ALL current content is trival at this point. Nerfing icebow for existing dungeons and fractals barely does anyhing, so why bother?
And I’m not suggesting new content be designed around icebow, I’m suggesting new content be designed that’s actually a challenge. It should requite coordination and timing and teamwork, not just who can burst the fastest.
You’re looking at new content as being the same general system and a copy/paste of current dungeon encounters. If that happpens, then sure, nerf icebow. But it won’t matter because there won’t be anyone left playing the game that actually cares about this skill.
Zelendel
Gonna jump in here and ask, who cares?
You don’t need an ele, nor ice bow, to faceroll content, you said it yourself. So ele ice bow #4 makes faceroll content slightly more faceroll, ok, duly noted…
I won’t stop because I can’t stop.
It’s a medical condition, they say its terminal….
It’s a medical condition, they say its terminal….
Gonna jump in here and ask, who cares?
You don’t need an ele, nor ice bow, to faceroll content, you said it yourself. So ele ice bow #4 makes faceroll content slightly more faceroll, ok, duly noted…
Exactly…. can we end the thread now?
“If only ANet had some kind of forum they could use to communicate with us……”
“ANet. They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity to not mess up.”
Mod “Posts created to cause unrest with unfounded claims are not allowed” lmao
“ANet. They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity to not mess up.”
Mod “Posts created to cause unrest with unfounded claims are not allowed” lmao
The fastest way to nerf the zerker meta is to nerf warrior banners and powerful allies trait. If those were to be made personal rather than party wide, eles would indirectly be replaced by professions which dps is not depended on party wide zerker buffs. A 33% nerf to zerker meta would also push towards a new condi meta.
how are you going to design challenging content (that they’ve promised) that fits both of the following criteria: 1) Doable by the casual group and 2) doesn’t die instantly to the optimized group.
You don’t make content that fits both of those. It is contradictory. It is either challenging or it is easy. That is Anets biggest fault. They keep trying to make content that appeases both parties but it simply isn’t possible. The only true solution is to make two versions of each content one easy mode and one hard mode. But then the problem comes that people will just do the easy mode for the rewards anyway because the other fault Anet has is that they won’t make the more difficult content any more rewarding than the faceroll content so the point of trying goes out the window.
And this is where your wrong. They are in the business of selling games to as many people as they can appeal to because it takes years to develop a game before it will even see a profit.
It always amazes me how many people can’t get beyond the island of “their own game play” ….
What does anything you said have to do with what I said? I said you can’t make content that pleases both players because it will either be too hard for one group or too easy for the other group. They have to pick one and they refuse to do it so we always end up with kitten content that isn’t properly optimized for either group.
Gonna jump in here and ask, who cares?
You don’t need an ele, nor ice bow, to faceroll content, you said it yourself. So ele ice bow #4 makes faceroll content slightly more faceroll, ok, duly noted…
Wait, is your contention that running fractals with a random group of newbies each using random builds is exactly the same as running it with experts using the meta builds? Because I’m no fractals expert by any means (I’m only up to Scale 19 so far), but I already have an easier time in the teens with a group that knows what it’s doing over a low-level group that’s still learning the ropes.
No content in the game, with the possible exception of higher-level fractals, is only beatable with a perfect meta team, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a tremendous difference in speed and difficulty between a meta team and a random PUG., to the point where it pushes non-meta professions and specs out of the game entirely.
I main Ele and Necro, though I have an alt of each profession at level 80.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.
Gonna jump in here and ask, who cares?
You don’t need an ele, nor ice bow, to faceroll content, you said it yourself. So ele ice bow #4 makes faceroll content slightly more faceroll, ok, duly noted…
Wait, is your contention that running fractals with a random group of newbies each using random builds is exactly the same as running it with experts using the meta builds? Because I’m no fractals expert by any means (I’m only up to Scale 19 so far), but I already have an easier time in the teens with a group that knows what it’s doing over a low-level group that’s still learning the ropes.
No content in the game, with the possible exception of higher-level fractals, is only beatable with a perfect meta team, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a tremendous difference in speed and difficulty between a meta team and a random PUG., to the point where it pushes non-meta professions and specs out of the game entirely.
I, uh, what? How? All I said was… huh? Fractals? Meta?
To clarify some stuff for you, not even high level fractals require a perfect meta team. Nothing in this game requires a meta team.
If we want to truly compare. I’m saying a pre-made experienced meta team with ice bow, and a pre-made experienced meta team without ice bow is a negligible difference. So much so that it prompts the question: who cares?
A PUG group with icebow and a PUG group without icebow will have similar completion times. You’d be surprised how many people do NOT know how to use icebow #4 properly and completely waste it.
But how the heck did I get roped into talking about meta and fractals, thought we were talking ice bow #4 here.
I won’t stop because I can’t stop.
It’s a medical condition, they say its terminal….
It’s a medical condition, they say its terminal….
Tbh Icebow doesn’t trivialize most level 80 encounter. The problem is mostly for low level bosses that melt so quicly whatever you do.
The incoming break bar will fix a bit of the ’’problem’’ since you gonna need to break the bosses before the icebow burst. Otherwise you elementalist will do 20% less dmg. Harder content will hopefully be the other half of the solution to make Icebow really good without trivializing bosses.
Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD
Wait, is your contention that running fractals with a random group of newbies each using random builds is exactly the same as running it with experts using the meta builds? Because I’m no fractals expert by any means (I’m only up to Scale 19 so far), but I already have an easier time in the teens with a group that knows what it’s doing over a low-level group that’s still learning the ropes.
No content in the game, with the possible exception of higher-level fractals, is only beatable with a perfect meta team, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a tremendous difference in speed and difficulty between a meta team and a random PUG., to the point where it pushes non-meta professions and specs out of the game entirely.
I, uh, what? How? All I said was… huh? Fractals? Meta?
To clarify some stuff for you, not even high level fractals require a perfect meta team. Nothing in this game requires a meta team.
I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. I only meant to qualify my statement because I haven’t myself played high-level Fractals.
If we want to truly compare. I’m saying a pre-made experienced meta team with ice bow, and a pre-made experienced meta team without ice bow is a negligible difference. So much so that it prompts the question: who cares?
A PUG group with icebow and a PUG group without icebow will have similar completion times. You’d be surprised how many people do NOT know how to use icebow #4 properly and completely waste it.
But how the heck did I get roped into talking about meta and fractals, thought we were talking ice bow #4 here.
I was specifically responding to your use of the phrase “faceroll.” If your group isn’t solid, it’s still possible to complete the dungeon or fractal or what have you, but it’s gonna be a lot harder than if everyone knows what they’re doing.
I main Ele and Necro, though I have an alt of each profession at level 80.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.
If you remove that PS warrior from you party, you will see a very noticeable drop in DPS regardless if you have 2 or 3 eles with icebows. The damage is just not there if you don’t combine it with damage multipliers from might, banners and traits that warriors has.
PvE and dungeons specific has a few core roles which need to be filled in order to do content fast. You need at minimum one warrior for DPS modifiers. One guardian for reflects and stability. One thief for stealth and skipping content. One OR Two eles for base DPS and fill out the party.
Remove any one of the specific roles and PvE content slows down. There have been many times where I or a party member switched from ele because the party lacked a warrior or thief or guardian, and each time we do so mid dungeon/fractal run it is imminently noticeable.
The eles start the party at 25 might with blasts and warriors don’t do that so they’re not very relevant for the ice bow burst. The banners are relevant but even without banners ice bow is ridiculous.
A warrior with both banners and empower allies will increase a group’s overall DPS by about 25%, not including might.
Those armadillos would be a lot cooler if they looked more like real armadillos. mmm armadillos
-BnooMaGoo.5690
-BnooMaGoo.5690
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