Guild Wars 2

I run a PvE ele that enjoys (exploits) Ice Storm and Deep Freeze, and to me the Frost Bow is like a CD with only two good songs – set them to repeat and ignore the rest. Ice Storm alone justifies the skill slot, but I’d much rather have it tweaked down somewhat and have the other weapon skills be as useful.

#press4thenignore

Look can you guys at least stop saying ice bow requires party buffs to be strong? The fact is the base damage is higher than any other burst you can do when it comes to most bosses.

Fine how about this. The nerf could be just limiting how many hits an enemy can be hit by. Limit it to five hits, so ice bow would be about as good as hundred blades.

But let me guess, that would be a horrible nerf and the skill would be useless.

Slippery slope… there will always be a top dps option in game….

Why not cut to the chase and just tell us what skill/utility you want to be highest DPS.

Mourningcry.9428:

Slippery slope… there will always be a top dps option in game….

You know “slippery slope” is a logical fallacy, right?

It’s one thing for there to be a top DPS option, and it’s another entirely for it to be head-and-shoulders beyond everything else. Like, if the top DPS option is only a few percent higher than the average, then maybe really hardcore speedrunners might prefer it, but realistically nobody else is going to care. You don’t have to be an obscenely hardcore player to see how strong a skill with a cumulative damage coefficient of up to 21.12 is. That’s a completely insane amount of damage.

Blaine Tog.8304:

You know “slippery slope” is a logical fallacy, right?

It’s one thing for there to be a top DPS option, and it’s another entirely for it to be head-and-shoulders beyond everything else. Like, if the top DPS option is only a few percent higher than the average, then maybe really hardcore speedrunners might prefer it, but realistically nobody else is going to care. You don’t have to be an obscenely hardcore player to see how strong a skill with a cumulative damage coefficient of up to 21.12 is. That’s a completely insane amount of damage.

Then treat it as a simple euphemism for what you know I was alluding to if you prefer.

There has already been considerable discussion regarding lesser degrees of power creep (i.e. Ascended over Exotic) in the general community (both PvE and WvW), not even from the hardcore minority. Take away icebow, and it’s only a matter of time before the next best option becomes the norm. Even if it’s a marginal gap, it’d be enough of an enticement to attract the same attention this discussion has.

In the simplest case, all attacks would do the same damage. As soon as one attack does more damage, this is now the more desirable one, and any who don’t wish to use it will fall into discord.

Is Icebow over the top? Take it away, and something else will take it place. Still over the top, but maybe just not as overly over…..

I’m not saying that Icebow makes a Huge difference while you are actually killing things in a dungeon, but it does when you are trying to use the lfg tool as a non meta class. If eles did not have icebow perhaps that would introduce a little bit more class diversity there ..

Eles as a whole are ridiculously OP right now in all game modes. Icebow is only part of the problem, but it’s really annoying.

Honestly, the entire conjure line just needs to be rebalanced . There are too many pointless skills, with only one really strong skill in the middle of it all that is actually viable to use.

Dinks.2478:

Kamara.4187:

Dinks.2478:

Khristophoros.7194:

how are you going to design challenging content (that they’ve promised) that fits both of the following criteria: 1) Doable by the casual group and 2) doesn’t die instantly to the optimized group.

You don’t make content that fits both of those. It is contradictory. It is either challenging or it is easy. That is Anets biggest fault. They keep trying to make content that appeases both parties but it simply isn’t possible. The only true solution is to make two versions of each content one easy mode and one hard mode. But then the problem comes that people will just do the easy mode for the rewards anyway because the other fault Anet has is that they won’t make the more difficult content any more rewarding than the faceroll content so the point of trying goes out the window.

And this is where your wrong. They are in the business of selling games to as many people as they can appeal to because it takes years to develop a game before it will even see a profit.

It always amazes me how many people can’t get beyond the island of “their own game play” ….

What does anything you said have to do with what I said? I said you can’t make content that pleases both players because it will either be too hard for one group or too easy for the other group. They have to pick one and they refuse to do it so we always end up with kitten content that isn’t properly optimized for either group.

I was pointing out the big picture to you, which is GW2 development didn’t sit down and decide to build a game to wrap around your preferred game play, or for a few niche groups.

Its not all about you, or how you feel, or what you think. Its a global game that was created to appeal to as many people as possible so it would make lots of money and make their investors happy~

Didn’t they semi recently buff the weapons to make them a bit more usable? are some people consider the tweak made them too good now?

Mourningcry.9428:

Blaine Tog.8304:

You know “slippery slope” is a logical fallacy, right?

It’s one thing for there to be a top DPS option, and it’s another entirely for it to be head-and-shoulders beyond everything else. Like, if the top DPS option is only a few percent higher than the average, then maybe really hardcore speedrunners might prefer it, but realistically nobody else is going to care. You don’t have to be an obscenely hardcore player to see how strong a skill with a cumulative damage coefficient of up to 21.12 is. That’s a completely insane amount of damage.

Then treat it as a simple euphemism for what you know I was alluding to if you prefer.

There has already been considerable discussion regarding lesser degrees of power creep (i.e. Ascended over Exotic) in the general community (both PvE and WvW), not even from the hardcore minority. Take away icebow, and it’s only a matter of time before the next best option becomes the norm. Even if it’s a marginal gap, it’d be enough of an enticement to attract the same attention this discussion has.

In the simplest case, all attacks would do the same damage. As soon as one attack does more damage, this is now the more desirable one, and any who don’t wish to use it will fall into discord.

Is Icebow over the top? Take it away, and something else will take it place. Still over the top, but maybe just not as overly over…..

So what you’re saying is, we need something insanely OP in the game to protect all the things that are more reasonable.

Somehow I don’t think I should have to explain how bad of an argument that is.

I hope that the day will come when ice bow will not be stupidly op.
But it’s been 3 years already and my hope is almost gone.

rogerwilko.6895:

I hope that the day will come when ice bow will not be stupidly op.
But it’s been 3 years already and my hope is almost gone.

Many people didn’t want Fiery Greatsword to be nerfed and it happened. People even were waiting in the wings for the Norn Bear form rush to be the next best thing but Anet cut that off at the pass as well. It was pretty much in the same position as ice bow, so really, nothing is sacred. Anet didn’t given an explanation for the timing of FGS nerf, nor have they given an explanation for their inaction on Ice bow and probably won’t unless it suits them. So, really, there’s not much else to do. They know how much damage it does. They’ll change it if they truly think it will hamper the difficulty of future content. When is anyone’s guess.

As for the argument that something new will take it’s place if it does get nerfed, you’re probably right. And that’s the challenge of balance. It’s difficult to get right and is often a series of moving targets that require evaluation and re-evaluation. The only mindset that prevents the game from getting better is the one that believes it cannot get better.

Why isn’t anyone complaining about meteor shower? Granted the radius is larger, but it does 1.5x the damage of icebow #4 with 1/2 the CD (1/3 if you trait for it).

Altair.8402:

Why isn’t anyone complaining about meteor shower? Granted the radius is larger, but it does 1.5x the damage of icebow #4 with 1/2 the CD (1/3 if you trait for it).

I believe the quick answer is because you don’t see meteor shower melting bosses in organized groups. If it’s not common, there’s likely a reason something else is being used more often. In this case, that something else is ice bow. Do you think meteor shower should be nerfed as well?

nightwulf.1986:

Altair.8402:

Why isn’t anyone complaining about meteor shower? Granted the radius is larger, but it does 1.5x the damage of icebow #4 with 1/2 the CD (1/3 if you trait for it).

I believe the quick answer is because you don’t see meteor shower melting bosses in organized groups. If it’s not common, there’s likely a reason something else is being used more often. In this case, that something else is ice bow. Do you think meteor shower should be nerfed as well?

I think it’s because ice bow does its damage in a shorter time so it’s more apparent when you’re looking at the health bar. My point is that ice bow dps isn’t so “above and beyond” everything else that it warrants a nerf.

All i see on the forums these days is whine whine whine… my class/profession isn’t in meta please nerf everyone else so i can be #1 player USA/world.

Get a grip, ice bow by itself does not automatically faceroll content it is the synergy between ele skills and the party buffs from other classes which makes them powerful.

If you have any understanding of meta it is rewarding because it is difficult to master given the high emphasis on active defence (correct dodging included) and team synergy. It’s the fact that people have had 3 years to practice this in the same scenarios that makes it the preferred and often default choice for dungeons/pve.

And as someone who hasn’t even done high level fractals your opinions are invalid as you haven’t even encountered the hardest pve content in gw2 at its current state.

All in all, everyone complaining needs to learn to play and understand meta better.

Frosty.5401:

All in all, everyone complaining needs to learn to play without icebow #4.

ftfy.

imo, its just stupidly OP, no matter how much you buff it up, no skill should be able to do that amount of damage.

Make Icebow #4 not able to crit. Fix Linecasting exploit.

Watch this, you will understand how Ice Bow needs a fix..

Nerf warrior GS #2.

Altair.8402:

nightwulf.1986:

Altair.8402:

Why isn’t anyone complaining about meteor shower? Granted the radius is larger, but it does 1.5x the damage of icebow #4 with 1/2 the CD (1/3 if you trait for it).

I believe the quick answer is because you don’t see meteor shower melting bosses in organized groups. If it’s not common, there’s likely a reason something else is being used more often. In this case, that something else is ice bow. Do you think meteor shower should be nerfed as well?

I think it’s because ice bow does its damage in a shorter time so it’s more apparent when you’re looking at the health bar. My point is that ice bow dps isn’t so “above and beyond” everything else that it warrants a nerf.

I think you’re forgetting to multiply by 2 (a second Icebow spawns).

To the people saying Icebow nerf is unnecessary because it only effects Dungeons are forgetting we have Raids soon (I don’t relish the requirement of 5 Eles minimum for burst phases).

Its a very powerful weapon which can even be bugged for ridiculous damage, I would not like it to trivialise Raids (or worse Raids get balanced around it).

Sorry Dist, it’ll still be good for Angz arena ^^

posthumecaver.6473:

Watch this, you will understand how Ice Bow needs a fix..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2b7dpC0liQ

Or you could just link a linecasting video… Nemesis doesn’t even explain what linecasting is in his video.

Frosty.5401:

All i see on the forums these days is whine whine whine… my class/profession isn’t in meta please nerf everyone else so i can be #1 player USA/world.

It’s not about which profession anyone plays. It’s about the fact that Ice Bow is OP.

Frosty.5401:

Get a grip, ice bow by itself does not automatically faceroll content it is the synergy between ele skills and the party buffs from other classes which makes them powerful.

Or maybe it’s the fact that the total power coefficient of Ice Bow 4 is far above any other ability in the game?

Frosty.5401:

If you have any understanding of meta it is rewarding because it is difficult to master given the high emphasis on active defence (correct dodging included) and team synergy. It’s the fact that people have had 3 years to practice this in the same scenarios that makes it the preferred and often default choice for dungeons/pve.

Active defense is not too important when you burst down bosses before they can do anything.

Frosty.5401:

And as someone who hasn’t even done high level fractals your opinions are invalid as you haven’t even encountered the hardest pve content in gw2 at its current state.

Who are you talking to? I play FotM scale 50 regularly.

Well after the introduction of raids, and the reveal of the so called “linecasting” it is fairly obvious that IB 4 needs to be nerfed by at least 50%, and the linecasting bug fixed.

I think meteor can stay at its current power if linecasting is removed.

If IB isn’t nerfed before raids are added then raids will be a joke and you might as well not even add them.

I don’t think anyone should decide ice bow needs a nerf until they can try it in content that hasn’t been practiced to the point of muscle memory. Linecasting obviously needs a fix because it is a bug but the ice bow itself is not crazy overpowered.

Altair.8402:

Why isn’t anyone complaining about meteor shower? Granted the radius is larger, but it does 1.5x the damage of icebow #4 with 1/2 the CD (1/3 if you trait for it).

The radius make a HUGE difference. There is no boss as huge as a meteor shower, there is plenty of boss that are as huge as Icebow #4. Especially since Icebow allow two additional advantage over the Meteor Shower.

1) Deep Freeze allow you to pug all the damage on a none moving taget for max efficiency and adding 20% dmg for elementalist.

2) You have twice the amount of Icebow 4 as Meteor shower since each elementalist can give a Icebow to another person.

So in reality, maybe half the meteor shower will hit and Icebow will have the 20% additional dmg. Meaning that in reality it does almost twice the damage of a meteor shower and you can have 4 people doing it at the same time, while still have a more stable composition.

I agree that Icebow #4 could use a little nerf, but in reality it won’t change anything. We have two solutions here.

Either Icebow #4 is less dps than most burst skill, so nobody will use it.

Or it’s more dps than most burst and everybody will use it.

We can make the point that we can balance it a little to be more on par with Meteor Shower for exemple, but if Anet don’t nerf it into oblivion (like the FGS), the use of Icebow will pretty much stay exactly the same, even if they nerf it a little.

We would need to change several key skills if we want to prevent content from being a joke.

1# Stealth. Dungeons are a joke when parties can just skip content. Smoke fields should be changed into giving vigor on blasts, and portals should be limited to only teleport 1 player inside instanced content and raids. This would remove the requirement of one thief per dungeon group (specific dungeons).

2# Reflects. Bosses are a joke when every attack can just be skipped by a single skill. The fastest DPS ever recorded in game and has been described as a exploit has been caused by reflecting lupi’s attack in Arah, and reflecting negates completely many boss mechanics in the game. Reflect should be changed to only negate the next 3 attacks. This would remove the requirement of one guardian per party.

3# Banners. Instanced content are designed around 5 players and are a joke when two utilities and a single trait contributes the same DPS as if there were and additional player in the party, while also locking the meta to direct damage. Those should be nerfed by 50% to encourage a different meta and remove the requirement of one warrior per party.

4# Zerker Meta. Parties that only invest in damage over everything else make content a joke. Dungeons should inflict different kind challenge, some which require a minimum amount of healing prayer to survive. Some bosses should be immune to direct damage, or do a undodgeable attacks which require toughness to survive.

If we did that and then balanced each class based on their ability to cause damage under the time frames 5s, 10s, 30s, and 1m, we should be able to create content where content can remain challenging and each profession be equally good at dealing with it.

Belorn.2659:

We would need to change several key skills if we want to prevent content from being a joke.

1# Stealth. Dungeons are a joke when parties can just skip content. Smoke fields should be changed into giving vigor on blasts, and portals should be limited to only teleport 1 player inside instanced content and raids. This would remove the requirement of one thief per dungeon group (specific dungeons).

2# Reflects. Bosses are a joke when every attack can just be skipped by a single skill. The fastest DPS ever recorded in game and has been described as a exploit has been caused by reflecting lupi’s attack in Arah, and reflecting negates completely many boss mechanics in the game. Reflect should be changed to only negate the next 3 attacks. This would remove the requirement of one guardian per party.

3# Banners. Instanced content are designed around 5 players and are a joke when two utilities and a single trait contributes the same DPS as if there were and additional player in the party, while also locking the meta to direct damage. Those should be nerfed by 50% to encourage a different meta and remove the requirement of one warrior per party.

4# Zerker Meta. Parties that only invest in damage over everything else make content a joke. Dungeons should inflict different kind challenge, some which require a minimum amount of healing prayer to survive. Some bosses should be immune to direct damage, or do a undodgeable attacks which require toughness to survive.

If we did that and then balanced each class based on their ability to cause damage under the time frames 5s, 10s, 30s, and 1m, we should be able to create content where content can remain challenging and each profession be equally good at dealing with it.

Requiring toughness or healing power is not a step in the right direction but a stop in a different wrong direction.

Belorn.2659:

We would need to change several key skills if we want to prevent content from being a joke.

1# Stealth. Dungeons are a joke when parties can just skip content. Smoke fields should be changed into giving vigor on blasts, and portals should be limited to only teleport 1 player inside instanced content and raids.

2# Reflects. Bosses are a joke when every attack can just be skipped by a single skill. The fastest DPS ever recorded in game and has been described as a exploit has been caused by reflecting lupi’s attack in Arah, and reflecting negates completely many boss mechanics in the game. Reflect should be changed to only negate the next 5 attacks.

3# Banners. Instanced content are designed around 5 players and are a joke when two utilities and a single trait contributes the same DPS as if there were and additional player in the party, while also locking the meta to direct damage. Those should be nerfed by 50% to encourage a different meta and remove the requirement of one warrior per party.

4# Zerker Meta. Parties that only invest in damage over everything else make content a joke. Dungeons should inflict different kind challenge, some which require a minimum amount of healing prayer to survive. Some bosses should be immune to direct damage, or do a undodgeable attacks which require toughness to survive.

1# Stealth. I agree that skip could be done better, but skip is fun when done right. They can make anti-stealth trap like in the bomb section that you need to evade or run around. They could make stuff that you still need to dodge or block, etc. Stealth isn’t the problem at all. There is no skip that can only be done with stealth.

2# Reflects. Well two things. Boss should have different attacks. If we reflect, they should try to attack with non projectiles and not continue with their standard rotation. If that’s too hard to do, they should make shorter reflection duration, while lower cooldown. So you need to put the reflect at the right time. Right now a WoR with MoC is super long and don’t need skill to use effectively.

3# Banners. I disagree partially. True that right now, buffing improve mostly direct damage. Fury, Spotter and Banner of Discipline improve FAR more direct damage build and things like Frost Spirit only improve direct damage. They could modify a little how buff works. It’s also true that banner and PS lock warrior behind one single build. Not saying that they should be remove, but they could be modify several ways. For exemple, they could change Warrior trait so that he can give might on other weapons than just GS.

4# Zerker Meta. I disagree with most of that part. We bring thief because of stealth and blind, we bring Guardian because of defensive support, we bring Warrior because of offensive buff, we bring Mesmer because of defense and utilities, etc Gear =/= role.

Immune to direct damage, like boss that instant wipe condition are bad design. Just like undodgeable attacks. Now boss that can protect themselves against burst (so you need to interrupt them) or boss that can condi remove (so you need to bait them before you burst with condi) or boss that can dodge. That’s good design that push people into using different tools to go through the challenge, but can still counter play those.

Just think 2 second about the implication of what you are asking. A casual player will need a Soldier to complete a path with undogable boss, a sinister gear to complete a dungeon with a boss immune to direct damage and a zerker gear for the rest. The worst part is that most ’’elitist’’ won’t have problem to get 3 different armor, but casual players?

Thaddeus.4891:

Just think 2 second about the implication of what you are asking. A casual player will need a Soldier to complete a path with undogable boss, a sinister gear to complete a dungeon with a boss immune to direct damage and a zerker gear for the rest. The worst part is that most ’’elitist’’ won’t have problem to get 3 different armor, but casual players?

That goes to show another way that the variety of stats on gear is mostly a wasted element of the game. You shouldn’t have to grind money in order to have the fun of changing strategies, including the stats on gear. I’d either get rid of different stats on gear, or I’d make it free to change stats. At least make it so that grinding the money to unlock stats once makes it free to change them thereafter.