Hidden Mechanics Affecting Player Behavior

Hidden Mechanics Affecting Player Behavior

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Posted by: proteininja.5891

proteininja.5891

I spent some time last night reading the official forums and reddit. I was looking at everyone’s opinions on the most recent changes to dungeon rewards and their relationship with DE reward reduction and item drop caps. While I was reading through the posts I noticed there was a great deal of misinformation floating around.

With this in mind, I would like to bring everyone up to speed, so that there is no confusion surrounding what we as a community know about these mechanics. DR = Diminishing Returns. DE = Dynamic Event.


Diminishing Returns Information for Item Drops

We don’t have any facts reported by the Arenanet staff on this system, but what has been agreed upon is that after farming a single enemy type for about 20 – 30 minutes drops seem to dry up. It has also been speculated that using magic find gear will cause a player reach the cap faster. The cap is most likely dependent on the number and quality of drops received and as well as time. Also, drop DR may be affected by location, so if you keep moving to new areas while killing the same enemy type (im looking at you centaurs) you should also be unaffected.

Diminishing Returns Information for Dynamic Event Rewards

We don’t have any facts reported by the Arenanet staff on this system. Reported findings point to a reduction in the reward for all events if too many events are completed in a certain time period. This time period and the number of events required to trigger the code are still unclear.

Diminishing Returns Information for Dungeon Rewards

Jon Peters

Let me clarify the change a bit since not everyone understands it. If you run the exact same chain twice in a row you will have your rewards cut. This means you can bounce back and forth between 2 different chains, even in the same dungeon without ever hitting this change. This change is made to encourage people to try different chains. If you speed clear dungeons at a rate of more than 2/ hour, and continue to do that for some time your rewards will slowly begin to degrade. It doesn’t kick in after running a single dungeon and it doesn’t immediately zero out rewards. Finally we reduced the value of repeating the story mode, because they are built to be easier and we want to encourage those repeating dungeons to run explore mode.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Dungeon-Updates/page/3#post154925

Continue Reading Below…

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Posted by: proteininja.5891

proteininja.5891

Now that we have that out of the way lets talk about these mechanics.

Item Drop DR

Drop caps are carried over from Guild Wars 1. In Guild Wars 2 they operate in a similar manner, but seem to affect nearly all loot. In Guid Wars 1 where dyes, rare materials, etc were unaffected. Don’t expect to see this changed or removed. This code worked wonders in Guild Wars 1 for reducing the attractiveness of botting and Arenanet has little incentive to remove something that has been so effective.

Many players complain that that this anti-botting code unjustly prevents them from doing whatever they like. Farming a single mob for hours and hours is not actually a problem for the economy, so why do they stop it? It is when this activity can easily be executed by a program that problems occur. The reason for the lack of information on how the anti-botting counter measures work is because if Arenanet clearly defines how the system works, then it becomes simple to write bots that avoid the code. It is difficult to write a bot that can move from area to area, use different skills and tactics, and can handle the many problems that can occur (being downed/dead/getting knocked off course). However these activities are easy for a human. All arenanet is forcing players to do is use their reasoning and skills to get around their code. Think of it as captcha, but implemented in an unobtrusive way that encourages variety.

Dynamic Event Reward DR

The purpose of this code is different from the drop DR. The drop DR is difficult to be affected by if you are not farming mats. Dynamic Event DR is in the game to prevent exploitation of DEs that are very close together on the map that happen to occur near the same time. The problem is there are some quest chains that happen in quick enough succession that this code can be triggered. This is obviously a stop gap measure while Arenanet fixes the game to prevent players from exploiting any Dynamic Events that they have yet to properly time out and balance. This code may stay in the game for the long run, but expect it to be tuned down as Arenanet gets closer to properly tuning all of Tyria’s dynamic events.

Dungeon Reward DR

This new anti-farming counter measure is the catalyst for recent discussion of these mechanics and for my writing of this article. Lets look at player and developer motives to try to come to an understanding on this issue.

Arenanet wants you to play their content. They spent years creating it and it would be an absolute shame for 66% of their dungeon content to be completly ignored.
Players want dungeon armor. They want it as quickly as the game allows them to get it.

So here is the problem, how do you get players to experience your content if one explorable path is clearly more efficient than the others?

The answer is that you make each path equally appealing and efficient for the player. Then, it is only a matter of preference as to which path the players take. This is a no brainer, but to acutally reach this balance is a true challenge. So while Arenanet tries to solve the problem properly they have implemented some changes that will force variety until they can balance content. It is important that there is variety or else players who want to do inefficient paths with never find willing parties outside of friends and guildmates.

In summary, story mode was never meant to be a cash farm, players are being forced to play different explorable paths until Arenanet can properly tune them, and players who do figure our ways to do dungeons in under thirty minutes are being discouraged until Arenanet can find and fix the exploits that allow this to happen.


Players are never forced to be inactive by these mechanics. If you experience drop DR, then switch to a different enemy type that drops the same material. If you experience DE DR, then do anything in the game other than events for a few minutes. Take solace in the fact that Arenanet will eventually tune up events, so you can adventure as you please. And now it should be obvious to you how to completely avoid Dungeon DR. Alternate between two or more explorable paths and don’t use exploits that trivialize the content.

It is important that these counter measures are put in place in the meantime to prevent inflation in the markets. If one small group of players finds a technique to become super rich, then the rest of the player base must use that techinque or be unable to afford anything on the market. That is bad.

I hope this article helps those who lacked understanding of these issues, and calms those of you who are afraid that Dungeon DR and DE DR are here to stay in their current form. Dungeons will be tuned. DEs will be tuned.

TLDR; Many of the new mechanics meant to affect player behavior are stop gaps until better systems can be found. Please be patient while Arenanet solves these difficult issues.

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Posted by: Galador Dux.6359

Galador Dux.6359

You sir, are a scholar and a gentleman.

Besides, these systems also discourage what many people have been yelling that they want anyway: grinding. If you don’t grind, these systems by definition won’t affect you (some are implying the dungeon DR system is buggy right now, but that’s another kettle of fish).

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Posted by: Jnaathra.6549

Jnaathra.6549

-Looks at thread where a person has 600+ gold-
-Looks at thread with videos of teleporting bots-

-sigh-

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Posted by: proteininja.5891

proteininja.5891

@Galador Dux

Thank you for your kind words. I agree that the Dungeon Reward DR bugs are not helping at all right now. All I can do is try to inform people that this is not how it is supposed to work.

@Jnaathra

Not exactly sure what you are getting at. These are anti-botting techniques. They make botting more difficult and expensive. Not impossible. The teleporting bots will be banned as soon as Arenanet nails down the script to remove them from the game all at once.

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Posted by: Strill.2591

Strill.2591

@Jnaathra

Not exactly sure what you are getting at. These are anti-botting techniques. They make botting more difficult and expensive. Not impossible. The teleporting bots will be banned as soon as Arenanet nails down the script to remove them from the game all at once.

But they don’t make it any more difficult for bots. The DE penalty is based on speed, not persistence. For example, there’s 11 dynamic events in the northwest corner of cursed shore, and it’s very possible to participate in all of them over 25 minutes. But if you do that, you’ll almost certainly hit the dynamic event cap.

There aren’t any bots that run around to every event and farm karma. Bots just sit in one spot and wait for town defense events. The only ones who can possibly be affected by the DE cap are players, not bots.

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Posted by: LaronX.8079

LaronX.8079

Very nice and informativ post

vote 4 sticky

Blub.

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Posted by: Nebojsha.3150

Nebojsha.3150

Too bad that all creatures in Orr are undead, so changing enemy type wont work.
Too bad that dungeon farm script activates no matter if you change dungeons, let alone paths.

I do not understand, what are these mechanic safeguard against? If it were for bots, I would like to see bot which can complete dungeon.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but it is against players with a lot of time to play game and prevention of them getting rich, reason for this is ofc cash shop.

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Posted by: proteininja.5891

proteininja.5891

@Strill

The rate at which bots gain gold IS important. It affects the profitability of the companies that use them for gold generation.

@Nebojsha

I agree that Orr is the worst area in the game right now. 4 enemy type is not enough for the highest level zone in the game.

Also, I am aware of the Dungeon Reward DR bugs, but they are bugs. They will be fixed.

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Posted by: Strill.2591

Strill.2591

@Strill

The rate at which bots gain gold IS important. It affects the profitability of the companies that use them for gold generation.

You didn’t read my post at all. I said the bots are completing events far SLOWER than players, and that they are NEVER affected by the Dynamic Event cap.

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Posted by: SirMoogie.9263

SirMoogie.9263

But they don’t make it any more difficult for bots. The DE penalty is based on speed, not persistence. For example, there’s 11 dynamic events in the northwest corner of cursed shore, and it’s very possible to participate in all of them over 25 minutes. But if you do that, you’ll almost certainly hit the dynamic event cap.

There aren’t any bots that run around to every event and farm karma. Bots just sit in one spot and wait for town defense events. The only ones who can possibly be affected by the DE cap are players, not bots.

Sounds like bad code on Arena Net’s part. Let point it out, and hope they tweak it to target single events.

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Posted by: Debsylvania.7396

Debsylvania.7396

Proteininja,
Thanks for the post. Interesting and enlightening. I hope people will be encouraged to allow ANet adequate time to address these problems.

Strill,
My guess would be that there are more factors involved to a fix than even the ones mentioned. It’s disingenuous to assert that the developers are unaware of the situations/criteria that you point out. Time, obviously, will tell.

Deb ~The Chewbacca Defense [TCD];
Waiting For Death [WFD]
@ Borlis Pass Server

(edited by Debsylvania.7396)

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Posted by: Strill.2591

Strill.2591

Strill,
My guess would be that there are more factors involved to a fix than even the ones mentioned. It’s disingenuous to assert that the developers are unaware of the situations/criteria that you point out. Time, obviously, will tell.

I’m just speaking from experience. I spent 5 hours a day for four days farming the same six events over and over again. I never hit the DE cap. It was only when I went out to explore and find more events that I discovered the cap.

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Posted by: proteininja.5891

proteininja.5891

@ Strill

These bots must have been tuned down to not be affected by diminishing returns, but this is fine. The counter measures are not meant to prevent botting they are meant to make it less profitable. Also, the DE DR is in there for players to so that they can’t make too much money off of some mistake.

Arenanet will ban the bots that are currently ruining Orr for everyone and other zones. The banning is the other part of this system.

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Posted by: Strill.2591

Strill.2591

@ Strill
These bots must have been tuned down to not be affected by diminishing returns, but this is fine. The counter measures are not meant to prevent botting they are meant to make it less profitable. Also, the DE DR is in there for players to so that they can’t make too much money off of some mistake.
Arenanet will ban the bots that are currently ruining Orr for everyone and other zones. The banning is the other part of this system

No you misunderstand me. You don’t need to tune the bots at all to avoid the DE cap. Right now bots sit in town all day farming the same town defense event. Because those events happen so infrequently, the bots will never reach the dynamic event cap. I know because I spent plenty of time farming those same events myself without ever hitting the cap.

In order for a bot to hit the cap it would need to go out into the world and find other dynamic events. I know of no such bot that can do that.

I find it hard to understand how you can call dynamic events a “mistake”. For example, here’s a list of events just in a small part of cursed shore:

NORTHWEST CURSED SHORE:

Escort Rattan
4x Escort Explorer Plix
Escort Packheart
2x Arena of Balthazar
Killl Champion Drake Broodmother
Kill Champion Abomination
Defend R&D Camp from Tar Elementals

Total: 11 events

If a player completes all of these events as they are alerted to them, they are almost certainly going to reach the dynamic event cap. No bot could accomplish this, and it’s totally unreasonable to punish players for playing the game. After all, if the devs thought 11 events were too many, why did they put all of them in the same spot? Heck this isn’t even including the eastern town defense events which you’re also alerted to from that area.

(edited by Strill.2591)

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Posted by: aNTarTis.2561

aNTarTis.2561

I has been reporting the same bots (teleporting ones and no teleporting ones) each day for the last weeks… guess what? they still there, killing the same mobs, 24 hours a day… REPORT system is useless…

Today I log on and find the old bots… plus another 2 new ones… they do the same path, the same stuff… like clones… they kill the mobs faster than me because they teleport to the next mob, and they got tons of mats, so I cant get my mats and forget about selling….. bots are ruinning my gameplay and I not get any answer form ARENANET to at least calm me down… blah blah from other people than ARENANET staff dosent work for me.

Commander of [XO] Xtreme Online – www.xogamers.com

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Posted by: Lord Jaguar.9504

Lord Jaguar.9504

+1’d on reddit
+1 here

This is an important consolidation of facts. Hopefully it will help me avoid any annoying DRs. Thank you very much for taking the time to make this post.

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Posted by: PessimiStick.7520

PessimiStick.7520

Systems that punish legitimate users under the guise of “protecting” them (from bots “ruining” the economy) are utter horsekitten. See: The TSA, DRM, etc. Much like DRM, these limits only affect legitimate players, as a bot will simply teleport to a different area and get around them with no effort.

Noticing the drop limit was actually one of my worst experiences in the game. Fortunately I still enjoy the game, but these draconian policies that hurt real players will certainly help push me away from the game.

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Posted by: Feranor.2053

Feranor.2053

You sir, are a scholar and a gentleman.
Besides, these systems also discourage what many people have been yelling that they want anyway: grinding. If you don’t grind, these systems by definition won’t affect you (some are implying the dungeon DR system is buggy right now, but that’s another kettle of fish).

As a Necro, my basic set of Exotic gear (Rabid) cannot be crafted. Thus I am forced to farm ~170k Karma for 4 pieces of armor, pay another ~20g for the missing 2 armor pieces, yet another ~15g for my weapons and I still won’t have anything for my trinket slots, since Rabid trinket gear is only available in green quality at LvL 80.

Wie willst du aufrecht leben, wenn du weißt, dass es nicht lohnt?
— ASP, “Tiefenrausch”

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Posted by: Mellowz.3728

Mellowz.3728

I posted this same response in another thread, but I feel it is more appropriate here.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the current issue with and MAJOR gripe about the Dynamic Events diminishing is that they affect the entire map NOT just the singular events that are being repeated over and over, and the events DR super fast.

Now if I am right, it is a major problem because players who are just trying to enjoy the map and complete the 100% completion are hitting this cap from just chaining events from following NPC’s after the event has ended or just exploring and finding a bunch of centaurs attacking a village, and their reward for exploring the map or just enjoying that map’s events because of story or just because they are fun is 121xp/19karma/1 for each event.

Now a diminishing reward for events being “farmed”. Eg: A spot one knows where many events occur and you circular that area repeating those events over and over to farm Karma/XP/Gold. Now creating a diminishing rewards systems for the SAME events being repeated are definitely expected and reasonable.
Diminishing rewards for repeated events would be a much better system since it would actually promote map exploration, without having to cap your rewards on one map after 20 minutes then porting to another map to complete random events cap out on that map and repeat. That does just aggravates players since that takes out a lot of what the game was suppose to be. Exploring a map finding random stuff, triggering random things.

Please Arena-net let the community know that the current Dynamic Events Diminishing rewards is either a mistake or just a temporary fix. Having to switch maps back and forth is really not engaging story wise, and penalizing a player for enjoying a maps story and/or events is demoralizing.

(edited by Mellowz.3728)

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Posted by: Strill.2591

Strill.2591

The Dynamic Event cap applies to ALL events everywhere. You can’t switch maps.

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Posted by: Mellowz.3728

Mellowz.3728

The Dynamic Event cap applies to ALL events everywhere. You can’t switch maps.

Wow really?… It has to be a mistake.

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Posted by: Rukia.4802

Rukia.4802

Reminds me of the dreadful Realm Down system Blizz put into D2.

Bots ruining fun, as always.

“I find this rain quite pleasant, it feels as though raindrops are blessing our victory”

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Posted by: Morgoth.4573

Morgoth.4573

So how long do I have to wait before I can actually get normal rewards from DE’s? I just did 3 and got low karma/xp and 6 coins for each one. 6 coins is laughable. I cant help that these events happen so fast after each other that it hits the DR. I’m being penalised for playing the game how its meant to be played

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Posted by: Grumpdogg.6910

Grumpdogg.6910

I love how the OP explains that we have been given very little information from the developers, and then makes the unsubstantiated claim that these measures are just a “stop gap” until a better solution is found. There is no basis for that claim.

These changes could just as likely be permanent.

“I swung a sword, I swung a sword again, oh look I swung a sword again!”
- Colin Johanson while spamming key 1 in GW2

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Posted by: Morgoth.4573

Morgoth.4573

If this is a permanent change, and it stays as it is, then people will only be able to do one or 2 chain DE’s max before they have to log off or go do something else entirely.

That will make a lot of people unhappy enough to complain and stop playing. If this hits the headlines then Anet will lose out in the long run, because less people will buy the game.

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Posted by: Strill.2591

Strill.2591

So how long do I have to wait before I can actually get normal rewards from DE’s? I just did 3 and got low karma/xp and 6 coins for each one. 6 coins is laughable. I cant help that these events happen so fast after each other that it hits the DR. I’m being penalised for playing the game how its meant to be played

Anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour. It’s hard to tell because if you try again too soon the timer resets and you have to start waiting again.

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Posted by: proteininja.5891

proteininja.5891

I love how the OP explains that we have been given very little information from the developers, and then makes the unsubstantiated claim that these measures are just a “stop gap” until a better solution is found. There is no basis for that claim.

These changes could just as likely be permanent.

The basis for these claims is Arenanet’s track record with Guild Wars 1.

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Posted by: Hunterdan.4921

Hunterdan.4921

Very interesting. Good post.

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Posted by: Ironangel.1548

Ironangel.1548

" They spent years creating it and it would be an absolute shame for 66% of their dungeon content to be completly ignored."

When there is only 2 dungeons being ran right? arah and Cof, so actually 86% of the content is being ignored, since no one is running anything else.

Just thought you should know.

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Posted by: Alur.7510

Alur.7510

Very nice and informativ post
vote 4 sticky

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Posted by: Gehenna.3625

Gehenna.3625

An interesting post and I agree with the general sense of it but not all of it.

The considerations yes, the solutions not so much.

It is true that people want the dungeon gear. In my view the mistake was made that tokens from each dungeon are different and you can only get each armour set with one type of tokens. Speed clears are not meant for obtaining the specific armour but for making money unless you want to say that everybody wants the same armour set.

Now here’s a couple of points to explain further:

1)Personally, for my mesmer, I prefer the Arah and TA sets. I haven’t even done Arah yet but those are the two I would like. Everybody will have their own preferences but I would think that the people who want all of them are a minority.

2) I need to run such a dungeon in explorable mode and over 40 times each I’ve been told to get the complete set.

3) Explorable modes are quite tough and need a good team to get them done in a reasonable time. They are not for pugs.

So what do these points have as a result? Well, the conclusion is that I do not have the time to run anything but those two dungeons and to run the dungeons I want I need to gear up first because they are tough and therefore I will expect to have full exotic gear before getting this gear set together. And this might bring me to the conclusion that it’s pointless.

If indeed Anet want to people to do explorable modes, I think that at this stage they won’t be able to convince the majority of their players for reasons similar to mine. I was in a pug yesterday which were 3 people of a guild, myself and another guy. The 3 from the same guild quit halfway because they weren’t having fun and it was just too much for them.

I am not talking about whether the game was too hard or the players too dumb, but it is probably too hard for a lot of players at this stage. I cannot look into the future but I already have guildies tell me they’re not even interested in the dungeons cause of these types of things.

Arah and CoF are being run mostly because apparently the level 80s found they were good for rewards and could be cleared quickly. This has nothing to do with the armours you can get there but the incoming cash flow from it. For the lesser gods, explorable mode is an endless frustration best avoided. I am not sure it’s the best approach for this.

It’s a game forum. The truth is not to be found here.

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Posted by: Duskmelt.9834

Duskmelt.9834

Bumping this post because players need to see this to understand why Arenanet changed the game as they did recently.

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Posted by: ChairGraveyard.2967

ChairGraveyard.2967

None of these systems affect bots. The current bots in the game have already completely circumvented these DR systems by using warping and speedhacking.

The only people these DR systems affect is legitimate players.

Just because they were intended to deter botting does not mean it’s actually working, and it is not at ALL, bots are getting more loot and money than any legitimate player ever can due to being able to circumvent the DR systems entirely using speedhacks and teleport hacks.

Simply repeating the idea that this stuff is deterring bots does not make it reality.