Guild Wars 2

Teamwork… and all these kids shouting “40K!!!!!!!” everywhere.

Hard content = teq, 30+ fractals, new dungeons, and playing wvw. Even KQ event can be hard.

you should talk about hard content or not, doesent matter, the point is how static is the game, if u need only dps, if u dont care about profession differences, if u wanna only grind and big number i’m happy for you, i’m here for play and have a fun, and atm gw2 it seems just a fps not a mmo

edit: i dont wanna trinity, there is 8 DIFFERENT profession, i whould like have a spot for this differences in the game content, i’m pretty bored to see “lf zerk” everywhere, and wth i’m the first one write this on lfg tool, cause this is the meta… play my ele or my war? no differences, just play zerk, if u do dmg with 100b, lh, or something elese doesent matter cause we have 8 profession and 1 goal, DPS

stack on corner
dodge
kill

this is gw2 dungeons

i want see mesmer do their trick, elementalist manage the elements for do his stuff, not conjure a freaking lh say bye bye to their attunement, i wanna see a party with some synergy and differences…. i wanna see some mechanics… “hey engi dude, go alone defend this point, me and war will go to destroy the turret and the mesmer will distranct and take away the gate guards”… “we need to split now, pls thief hide and go over the turret and kill the guys, so he cant push the alarm button, i’ll support the war killing those enemies, and u ranger go over the hill and shoot the far target”…

where is those mechanics?

we cant have

1) alot of mob hit so hard for solo him, so u have to stack on some points and dodge
2) anet maybe love kill and dodge mechanism

i love this game, i think anet made a good job, but we need more, they have to change pve, or if they doesent wanna change content already exist, pls think something about that for endgame, like fractals.
i’m here for be constructive i just wanna a game close to perfection, the team who made contents is not a programmers, but they are artists, this world is awesome, but who write some mechanics… sorry guys, but u need to think different, and give use more option then dps/dodgetostayalive and corners

The thing is, GW2 is an experiment. Its not perfect at the moment but its a brave step away from the traditional trinity setup that has plagued MMOs all this time. I don’t know how long it would take Anet to perfect their new setup, but it’ll get there.

Everyone plays a DD because for a large portion of the game, you need to fight alone, and since fighting alone is balanced around the DD, tanks and healers have a massively frustrating time doing so because they don’t get to apply any of their class roles, and thus are basically kitten.

Lian Olsam.9541:

you should talk about hard content or not, doesent matter, the point is how static is the game, if u need only dps, if u dont care about profession differences, if u wanna only grind and big number i’m happy for you, i’m here for play and have a fun, and atm gw2 it seems just a fps not a mmo

edit: i dont wanna trinity, there is 8 DIFFERENT profession, i whould like have a spot for this differences in the game content, i’m pretty bored to see “lf zerk” everywhere, and wth i’m the first one write this on lfg tool, cause this is the meta… play my ele or my war? no differences, just play zerk, if u do dmg with 100b, lh, or something elese doesent matter cause we have 8 profession and 1 goal, DPS

stack on corner
dodge
kill

this is gw2 dungeons

i want see mesmer do their trick, elementalist manage the elements for do his stuff, not conjure a freaking lh say bye bye to their attunement, i wanna see a party with some synergy and differences…. i wanna see some mechanics… “hey engi dude, go alone defend this point, me and war will go to destroy the turret and the mesmer will distranct and take away the gate guards”… “we need to split now, pls thief hide and go over the turret and kill the guys, so he cant push the alarm button, i’ll support the war killing those enemies, and u ranger go over the hill and shoot the far target”…

where is those mechanics?

we cant have

1) alot of mob hit so hard for solo him, so u have to stack on some points and dodge
2) anet maybe love kill and dodge mechanism

i love this game, i think anet made a good job, but we need more, they have to change pve, or if they doesent wanna change content already exist, pls think something about that for endgame, like fractals.
i’m here for be constructive i just wanna a game close to perfection, the team who made contents is not a programmers, but they are artists, this world is awesome, but who write some mechanics… sorry guys, but u need to think different, and give use more option then dps/dodgetostayalive and corners

Lets hope this game dose not become as max and min as your trying to make it because the way your talking the only way to do things is the best way and to do it any other way is bad. Please get over your self and start enjoying games you do not have to play with ppl who think as such if you do not want to.

Side note JP are hard content for some ppl and i guess you can go full zerk in them but its kind of pointless. There a lot more to GW2 then killing things.

Cooperal.8704:

Viking Jorun.5413:

Trinity = Forced routine

No Trinity = Skill-Based

Fixed.

Qft, thank you.

When people think of trinity people think of fixed roles and certainly that was one of the drawbacks of it.

However removing the trinity has been a step back because you removed a lot of the potency of groups and diluted the power curves so that you can’t actually throw difficult content at the players.

Guild Wars one might not have tanks but there was protection and healing, this mean you could design mobs to be harder because players have the tools to handle it.

Trinity = Routine Play

No Trinity = Skill based!

This has been a surprisingly okay thread. (Usually it dissolves into toxic)

I love to hear your insights.

I’ve formed friendships simply because I play with them. That and putting up a WoR, or immobilizing a champ when my party member gets downed.

High-level fractals aren’t just a dodge fest. You need utility too. Gw2 is about skill and Oh, and different professions are the best at tackling different fractals.

The main reason why ANet doesn’t allow harder content is because it was catered to casuals, you know.

You only need DPS? It only requires a better AI and mob design
The lack of control and support specialized builds in PvE is probably a result of every profession being able to have control or support with the switch of a utility, despite using zerker gear and offensive traits.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Trinity = Strategy

No Trinity = Skill-Based

imagine for a moment that there was a trinity in gw2 that is control/dps/support where dps deal damage, control keep enemy damage off your team, and support remove condition/control and distribute boons. imagine game was based on teamplay and reliance on teammates to win fights.

now look at gw2 and feel free to think dodge spam is “skill”

The problem I think with the lack of a trinity, is that we didn’t get anything in return. This leaves a sort of void, and makes the game (especially as far as PVE is concerned) extremely void of strategy and depth. And this bothers me most because it was advertised as a step forward from GW1, when in fact, it was clearly not. It’s a step backward. GW1 had a lot of depth in its combat. It was far more about skill and profession synergies, and less about DPS and spamming dodge. That’s not to say that proper dodging doesn’t take skill, it does. But there’s a contradiction in the game’s design philosophy that kind of falls apart when you look at it closely.

The professions are designed to basically fill in any role, but not one specifically. They can all tank to some extend, focus on DPS, and provide party support, spread conditions, and use control skills. But obviously some classes are better at one thing, than another. And also quite obviously, not all of these elements are equally important in the game. They should be, but they are not.

This means some mechanics turn into a dominant strategy, and the classes that excel at this mechanic, are the ones that outshine all the other classes. If lots of DPS is better than lots of armor, than why focus on armor at all? And if the classes are perfectly able to sustain themselves, then indeed you don’t need a healer class… but haven’t you then removed a team play element from the game?

I remember that playing a monk in GW1 was quite a job. Some people loved it, it was a lot of watching health bars and energy levels. And sometimes it was so stressful, that necromancers had to act as batteries by spamming Blood is Power. These combination evolved naturally, and it was an interesting process. Players experimented a lot with different roles… but I see none of that here. And that is a pity.

It really speaks to the game’s issues and short-comings when you take into account that these topics have been a main-stay virtually since beta. I think that’s grounds enough to probe a little deeper. We’ve all heard the counter-points and vapid whines of the anti-trinity crowd. “Trinity makes games too easy.” “Trinity means i’ll have to wait around for a healer or a tank.” “Trinity means less skill.” “Trinity is the cancer of MMOs.” Sparing you the drone, these ignorant, emotional responses to poor examples and experiences of the trinity are really just laughable at this point. Most complaining about trinity comes from those who never even played GW1 and only know the boring trinity of WoW.

Before anyone tries to say we have a different trinity, you don’t need support in most situations. Most of the time you can get by completely on dodges, procs, and self-heals. There is no targeted support, it’s all consequential to AoE spam. Statistically, you put your group at a disadvantage for specializing into ONLY heal or ONLY control.
GW2 Developers said they didn’t excise the trinity, simply replaced it with Damage / Support / Control. These paradigms fail however because they lack distinction. Defiant makes most CC useless against bosses because they’re far easier to just DPS down. Conditions are still a mess balance-wise in PvE, so that leaves very little build diversity in an already stagnant skill system.
So systematically, when compounded with the layout and functional implications of Hearts and Events, the game is played in pretty much a solo-fashion. There is no need to group up with that Elementalist for heals, conjures, etc. No need to group up with any class really. Whereas in GW1, build-sharing and crafting was practically necessary. You were disadvantaged for being uncoordinated with your group and in a lot of missions, you were doomed without competent non-npc players. Now, it’s not necessarily a bad thing that the classes in GW2 are self sufficient, but if you pack all of the aforementioned information into one system, it seems less like a structured MMO and more like a public pool.
You don’t truly need to group up or play with people based on previously mentioned information and that leads to a free-form leveling experience. The only time you really need other people around is when an event scales up or you’re not a Guardian, fighting a Champion alone. You don’t rely on other people for their class, build, role, anything. Most of the time, the content is brainlessly zerged in the areas that provide the best reward.

I honestly think that GW devs have lost a lot of heart and soul from the feedback since release. My issues with the game stem from too much expedience, shallow combat, and systems that don’t do enough to encourage deep, rewarding, strategic interplay of player skill. I think a large issue is that the game was designed without a traditional trinity system, which wouldn’t be a problem if their system worked better. Conditions and Control are virtually useless in PvE. Support is consequential rather than pre-meditated like in trinity games and that takes a great deal away from the player interaction.

The most integral flaw of GW2 is that content is designed like an a la carte menu or likened to that of a public pool. There is no need to group up, share builds, or trade player to player. There are some pretty large, systemic problems with GW2’s design (that were solved better in GW1) and I feel that the devs have steered away from doing much in the way of correcting the flaws. They seem to be content with relying on limited time cash shop gimmicks to sap players and the community for funds as a result of the business model. It seems like they are cornered and have little incentive to do much else.

Don’t fool yourself, the CDI is a PR stunt at best. They’ve had relevant feedback like this about the systems in their game for a long time. They ignore the big issues and skirt the systematic design flaws. I really just feel like the devs have no idea what they’re doing with this game and they’ve turned too far away from their roots.

guild wars 2 is fine without trinity.

play the game how you want to play it.

it is working as intended.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

guild wars 2 is fine without trinity.

play the game how you want to play it.

it is working as intended.

CDI posturing, negative forum sentiment since launch, and a general decrease in interest across the interwebs says differently. Might be time to wake up to the world outside of your concrete box.

Search Guild Wars 2 on Google Trends.

lothefallen.7081:

—snip—

qft

There are some very high level design issues pointed out here that need attention.

While Guild Wars was a much more refined game with a lot of depth, the important thing to remember about Guild Wars 2 is that it’s an MMO experiment.

It’s successful from a business perspective, because of the the Guild Wars IP (whose image has been tarnished in the eyes of many Guild Wars players due to the games revenue as opposed to the value returned to players). Another large part of it’s success on the business side was it’s marketing and timing, being a high quality MMO arriving after a large drought.

Clearly there is a lot of work to be done to refine the elements that Guild Wars 2 has introduced. One of the places they should start is by working on their own trinity and revisiting items such as defiant, conditions, anti-burst, etc.

lothefallen.7081:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

guild wars 2 is fine without trinity.

play the game how you want to play it.

it is working as intended.

CDI posturing, negative forum sentiment since launch, and a general decrease in interest across the interwebs says differently. Might be time to wake up to the world outside of your concrete box.

Search Guild Wars 2 on Google Trends.

Mass interest does not a good game make. A LOT of people like WoW, but a lot of people also couldn’t stand it and played GW1 instead. Just because you have an idea of how the game should be doesn’t mean that you’re right. And just people people are leaving the game doesn’t mean they’re right. If the purpose of the game is to appease players then go ahead, make it just like every other standardized MMO, but if the point is to challenge convention and present a viable alternative – well, I think GW2 has managed that quite well and I am happy with the lack of trinity…

FlamingFoxx.1305:

lothefallen.7081:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

guild wars 2 is fine without trinity.

play the game how you want to play it.

it is working as intended.

CDI posturing, negative forum sentiment since launch, and a general decrease in interest across the interwebs says differently. Might be time to wake up to the world outside of your concrete box.

Search Guild Wars 2 on Google Trends.

Mass interest does not a good game make. A LOT of people like WoW, but a lot of people also couldn’t stand it and played GW1 instead. Just because you have an idea of how the game should be doesn’t mean that you’re right. And just people people are leaving the game doesn’t mean they’re right. If the purpose of the game is to appease players then go ahead, make it just like every other standardized MMO, but if the point is to challenge convention and present a viable alternative – well, I think GW2 has managed that quite well and I am happy with the lack of trinity…

On the most fundamental level, an MMO is designed to facilitate meaningful interaction between players. Have you ever loaded into Frostgorge to kill the dragon and felt like zerging it down was meaningful, deep, or strategic in any way, shape, or form?

Do you realize that because of the lack of trinity, excelling at the game is quite simplistic and almost comes down to putting on berserker gear regardless of your class?

Does it create more meaningful interaction to press a button for a self-heal or to rely on another player to protect you?

The purpose of the game is fun. While everyone has preferences, they usually polarize. With the amount of trinity topics since launch, there is definitely cause for speculation. This means that you are incorrect to posit that because people leave or want changes that GW2 is fine as is. Negative feedback isn’t solely based on preference, if a game is objectively fun, no one will complain. There were problems in GW1, but no one ever complained about that game at the level people complain about this one. Please recognize.

After considering this, re-read my OP and look at the points more carefully as to why I feel my preferences are valid to most mentally-developed users in GW2.

lothefallen.7081:

-snip-

A trinity doesn’t fix that though – a zerg is a zerg, it doesn’t matter if there are tanks and healers because there are just too many players for roles to be meaningful, so the lack of roles in that situation has absolutely no effect.

People never complained much about GW1 because it was a niche game – those of us who were playing it were playing because we liked the way it was. GW2 is a lot more commercial and as such it has drawn in the typical MMO crowd who all have assumptions of how the game should be based on what they are used to. That is what I take issue with, you’re trying to say that because the masses are used to a trinity the game should have one because it is inconceivable that people could actually be enjoying the lack of one… Which is ridiculous. You have to remember that the forum accounts for a rather small percentage of the player population. The majority of players are in game playing and not caring about the lack of a trinity. The numerous posts on the forums represent a vocal minority that looks meaningful in the context of the forums – which is already a minority of the player base.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

lothefallen.7081:

-snip-

A trinity doesn’t fix that though – a zerg is a zerg, it doesn’t matter if there are tanks and healers because there are just too many players for roles to be meaningful, so the lack of roles in that situation has absolutely no effect.

People never complained much about GW1 because it was a niche game – those of us who were playing it were playing because we liked the way it was. GW2 is a lot more commercial and as such it has drawn in the typical MMO crowd who all have assumptions of how the game should be based on what they are used to. That is what I take issue with, you’re trying to say that because the masses are used to a trinity the game should have one because it is inconceivable that people could actually be enjoying the lack of one… Which is ridiculous. You have to remember that the forum accounts for a rather small percentage of the player population. The majority of players are in game playing and not caring about the lack of a trinity. The numerous posts on the forums represent a vocal minority that looks meaningful in the context of the forums – which is already a minority of the player base.

If you participated in the ESO beta this weekend one thing to take note of is this exact sentiment. In the end, DPS zergs win in that game. And the trinity is in full swing in ESO.

There is a difference between excelling at CoF p1, WvW blobbing, World Bosses other than Teq, etc.
And excelling at high-level fractals, WvW roaming, PvP, and the like.
People need to play the harder things more.

Oh and, There is no such thing as “objectively fun.”

milo.6942:

imagine for a moment that there was a trinity in gw2 that is control/dps/support where dps deal damage, control keep enemy damage off your team, and support remove condition/control and distribute boons. imagine game was based on teamplay and reliance on teammates to win fights.

This is what I imagined and expected GW2 would be, based on GW1 and Anets dev blogs.

now look at gw2 and feel free to think dodge spam is “skill”

This is what we got.

I’ll hand this much to Anet- the ideas are there, and most of them are solid. The implementation is terrible, and they need to be willing to take some risks and do some major gameplay changes for the game to hit it’s potential. I don’t want to go the WoW route, with scripted fights and assigned roles, but I do want to see more emphasis and benefit from team interaction. Hint- it’s OK to assume/require a certain mix of roles to do a dungeon- 1 control, 1 support, 3 DPS, or whatever. Since all classes have elements of all roles (though some are stronger in some areas then others, obviously), players are still free to pick and choose as they go, which is the important part.

The key to balance is that power requires investment- want to lockdown a boss for 10 secs at a time? Be prepared to do piddles for DPS. Right now, that tradeoff isn’t even possible, since that kind of control and support abilities don’t exist.

The Zerker/dodge meta is not so much due to it being the best option (although there is some of that)- it’s because it’s the only option.

The trinity is a terrible system. I’m glad ArenaNet stepped away from it. It forces players to fill a specific role or class for a chance to have fun in any difficult areas of an MMO. The trinity turns every group into a build exam and if you aren’t set-up according to other peoples standards you cannot join. How is that fun? We should be able to play any class or role we want in a dungeon, PvE, PvP or WvW. We shouldn’t be forced to run build X with class Y to do a dungeon run because some players want to feel special.

The prevalence of Zerker-uber-alles is why we’re seeing Vigor-generating abilities restricted in the next patch and will likely see even more tightly controlled access to the boon that grants absolute immortality on demand in the future. We’re also going to see more use of effects like Toxin that apply undodgeable damage ticks – so that Pure DPS builds/gear-loadouts either start splashing in some bunker stats/traits to live long enough or begin running with support characters that can manage the survival of several people at once while those other characters continue to dish maximum damage.

There are ways to break the Berserker monopoly on awesome and they are already upon us.

lothefallen.7081:

Most complaining about trinity comes from those who never even played GW1 and only know the boring trinity of WoW.

Nike.2631:

The prevalence of Zerker-uber-alles is why we’re seeing Vigor-generating abilities restricted in the next patch and will likely see even more tightly controlled access to the boon that grants absolute immortality on demand in the future. We’re also going to see more use of effects like Toxin that apply undodgeable damage ticks – so that Pure DPS builds/gear-loadouts either start splashing in some bunker stats/traits to live long enough or begin running with support characters that can manage the survival of several people at once while those other characters continue to dish maximum damage.

There are ways to break the Berserker monopoly on awesome and they are already upon us.

Vigour nerf is due to spamming dodges in pvp, not pve. Anet does not balance pve as long as it is not broken and they do not want tanks in pve, they want you to dodge but dodge wisely so that every dodge carries a decision.

Pure dps builds (I assume you mean warriors and elementalists because other professions aren’t pure dps), run with 1-2 guardians which are glasses as well (and actually might deal more damage than warrior). The only one that will be hurt by nerfing dodge spam as many like to call it will be an average player running with random people and not optimizing their team composition. It always ends like that that who cries for the help gets punished the most (check anet’s past decisions in gw1).

Edit: Just to add some thoughts. Currently, I’m sure you are concerned with warrior’s state in pve. Nerfs to vigour do not affect him at all. In fact, warrior without vigour still have more dodges and blocks than let’s say elementalist or necromancer.

Pressure? Healing signet removes most of that and if you would want something more you will just lose tons of damage potential.

Finally, I thought that old warriors/guardian/mesmer meta was typical trinity. Warrior was dps, guardian tank/support and mesmer support.

Jski.6180:

Lian Olsam.9541:

you should talk about hard content or not, doesent matter, the point is how static is the game, if u need only dps, if u dont care about profession differences, if u wanna only grind and big number i’m happy for you, i’m here for play and have a fun, and atm gw2 it seems just a fps not a mmo

edit: i dont wanna trinity, there is 8 DIFFERENT profession, i whould like have a spot for this differences in the game content, i’m pretty bored to see “lf zerk” everywhere, and wth i’m the first one write this on lfg tool, cause this is the meta… play my ele or my war? no differences, just play zerk, if u do dmg with 100b, lh, or something elese doesent matter cause we have 8 profession and 1 goal, DPS

stack on corner
dodge
kill

this is gw2 dungeons

i want see mesmer do their trick, elementalist manage the elements for do his stuff, not conjure a freaking lh say bye bye to their attunement, i wanna see a party with some synergy and differences…. i wanna see some mechanics… “hey engi dude, go alone defend this point, me and war will go to destroy the turret and the mesmer will distranct and take away the gate guards”… “we need to split now, pls thief hide and go over the turret and kill the guys, so he cant push the alarm button, i’ll support the war killing those enemies, and u ranger go over the hill and shoot the far target”…

where is those mechanics?

we cant have

1) alot of mob hit so hard for solo him, so u have to stack on some points and dodge
2) anet maybe love kill and dodge mechanism

i love this game, i think anet made a good job, but we need more, they have to change pve, or if they doesent wanna change content already exist, pls think something about that for endgame, like fractals.
i’m here for be constructive i just wanna a game close to perfection, the team who made contents is not a programmers, but they are artists, this world is awesome, but who write some mechanics… sorry guys, but u need to think different, and give use more option then dps/dodgetostayalive and corners

Lets hope this game dose not become as max and min as your trying to make it because the way your talking the only way to do things is the best way and to do it any other way is bad. Please get over your self and start enjoying games you do not have to play with ppl who think as such if you do not want to.

Side note JP are hard content for some ppl and i guess you can go full zerk in them but its kind of pointless. There a lot more to GW2 then killing things.

its the same for u, gw2 it doesent suppose to be a fps, if u like fps go play battlefield…

i’d like to see more oprions for players, not only have what i want and tell to u “left the game if u dont like it”, i’m not a kid… we should just have some pure dps dungeons, and something else…
what’s the point about have 8 classes with no differences if everyone have to go dps? did u read about alot of ppl be kicked for be a necro or ranger or for dont be pure dps? did u saw lfg tool? “zerk only”“lf guard war mesm only” etc etc… gw2 its not supposed to be like this, and this is not my idea, its anet manifesto, a fun game for everyone…
i have ele war and guard so i dont have any problem for play, my thought is not with a selfish purpose, cause i can play all contents, but its about game quality… why we have ONLY dps meta, when we should have ALSO dps meta but also support, and strategic one?

In all honesty it really doesn’t matter if everyone was DPS. Roles could be dictated per encounter: if a boss needs CCing, someone could bring a hammer and CC it, if there’s a specific mechanic of the boss that needs to be done, some one could do it. You don’t need specific class roles to create rolls.

Look at the early days of Vindictus, everyone was a DD, there’s no tanks or healers, but each player brought something special to the able. Whether you could aim a ballista well enough to hit a tiny break-off point in the boss needed to get a special drop, whether you got reflexes quick enough to counter a boss’s attacks and hold it down, or if there was just a mechanic like dropping boulders off a cliff on the boss to stun it, everyone had their own roles.

The problem is not a lack of the trinity; the problem is a lack of meaningful combat roles. When humans organize themselves in groups to meet an objective, roles are always the first issue sorted out, and I don’t care whether it’s a scavenger hunt, war, sports, or brain surgery. Humans always organize around roles. It is both more effective in terms of completing the task at hand and more personally satisfying knowing that each participant is a necessary component of success. The absence of meaningful combat roles is a problem in GW2 because it doesn’t model human behavior and that’s why threads on the topic will never end until there is a sense of meaningful roles.

I think the absence of strict combat roles and it’s replacement with each class doing something which is not absolutely nessecary and everyone fending for themsves was to try and avoid what makes traditional MMOs a nest of elitism.

If you’re a healer and messed up your heals, be prepared to get your kitten shouted off, if you’re a DD that got aggro by accident: boy you’re in for a session of insults. There’s a famous story from WoW about a guy who was basically bullied across the entire server simply because he wasn’t very good at the game. That’s the stuff that gives MMOs it’s antisocial stereotype, and often end up making people who just want to have fun leave.

It’s a delicate balance though.

Without the Holy Trinity, you run into communities like this one where people classify each profession based on usefulness so warrior,guardian etc typically with thief ending up on bottom.

Now spin it in to a holy trinity warrior would have been a tank/dps guard would have been a support/tank etc. there would have been a healer specific class or classes and thief would be a great dpser along with ranger thus making them more sought after in dungeons and such.

Galtrix.7369:

Well, look at it this way. Because GW2 has no trinity, the ONLY via me build in PVE is berserker. I don’t know about you, but I don’t like being forced to play berserker in PVE. Also, having no trinity has basically made balancing classes impossible. Tanks are supposed to have tanks skills, and healers are supposed to have healing skills. Now, every time someone wants to change their build, there is only one best build at a time. No other builds can be equal to or greater than the most viable build.

Guild wars 2 is fundamentally flawed because of this.

People like him give this game bad credit.
Nobody is forced to do anything they don’t feel like. Nobody is forcing anybody into full zerker. I’ve yet to find one party on the LFG tool that made me ping my gear.
Trinity doesn’t mean better balance – look at other trinity based games.
Even if you had a trinity there would still only be ONE best build for that particular role. The statement about no build being equal or greater than the most viable one is universally valid – with or without a trinity.

There’s a few Ex-WOW players around the forums OP, and they’re very vocal about how much they’d like GW2 to turn into the next WOW – with a non-dodge oriented combat – defined trinity roles and so on and so forth.
What they’re saying is " GW2 is so flawed – do what we say to improve it ". What they mean is " Give us WOW with better graphics".

Syrpharon.7491:

People should learn to play the game and build their characters not to achieve the best result, but simply for fun.

Some people have fun playing for the best result. That’s literally the only fun part in this game for me and others.

Raine.1394:

The problem is not a lack of the trinity; the problem is a lack of meaningful combat roles. When humans organize themselves in groups to meet an objective, roles are always the first issue sorted out, and I don’t care whether it’s a scavenger hunt, war, sports, or brain surgery. Humans always organize around roles. It is both more effective in terms of completing the task at hand and more personally satisfying knowing that each participant is a necessary component of success. The absence of meaningful combat roles is a problem in GW2 because it doesn’t model human behavior and that’s why threads on the topic will never end until there is a sense of meaningful roles.

Except you have roles.
You have offensive roles and support roles.

Arthos Ravron.3796:

Why are people complaining about a lack of trinity?

I don’t see what’s so good about it.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/A-case-for-the-Holy-Trinity/

mikeew.8607:

Without the Holy Trinity, you run into communities like this one where people classify each profession based on usefulness so warrior,guardian etc typically with thief ending up on bottom.

Now spin it in to a holy trinity warrior would have been a tank/dps guard would have been a support/tank etc. there would have been a healer specific class or classes and thief would be a great dpser along with ranger thus making them more sought after in dungeons and such.

In the holy trinity there is still superior dps and inferior dps. So nothing would change, some classes would still qq about being at the bottom.
Ironically Sitael it was FFXIV:ARR that brought me back to GW2.
I thought roles would be great, it wasn’t. I was a healer and so I would watch tv/press heals occasionally. It was ridiculously easy. I did not get any higher than Garuda HM since I did not feel i should be paying a subscription fee to just gear up (time gated to one piece per month, no thanks).
Whats worse is getting bad tanks and needing them to get through content.
Here if I die its my own fault. I can’t blame anyone else, which I like.

I don’t want a trinity, I just want some kind of mechanic that makes it so that the absolute best option is not full zerker for everything PvE.

We’ve got a boatload of other gear stat combinations, and no good reason to use any of them.

mikeew.8607:

Without the Holy Trinity, you run into communities like this one where people classify each profession based on usefulness so warrior,guardian etc typically with thief ending up on bottom.

Now spin it in to a holy trinity warrior would have been a tank/dps guard would have been a support/tank etc. there would have been a healer specific class or classes and thief would be a great dpser along with ranger thus making them more sought after in dungeons and such.

It still happens in trinity-based MMOs unless you only have 4 classes. There’s 3/4 roles you can have: a tank, a healer, a DD, and some sort of a support class which is often mixed into the healer role (hence why 3/4 roles). Anything beyond that and you’ll have ranks.

In fact, its even worse in a trinity-based MMO because theres only a very small number of roles in combat and thus you inevitably end up with those jack of all trades, master of none classes which no one wants in a party. Sure, you can tank, you can DD, and you can also heal, but if there’s always another class better than you at all those roles, why would anyone want you around?

Harper.4173:

Syrpharon.7491:

People should learn to play the game and build their characters not to achieve the best result, but simply for fun.

Some people have fun playing for the best result. That’s literally the only fun part in this game for me and others.

Raine.1394:

The problem is not a lack of the trinity; the problem is a lack of meaningful combat roles. When humans organize themselves in groups to meet an objective, roles are always the first issue sorted out, and I don’t care whether it’s a scavenger hunt, war, sports, or brain surgery. Humans always organize around roles. It is both more effective in terms of completing the task at hand and more personally satisfying knowing that each participant is a necessary component of success. The absence of meaningful combat roles is a problem in GW2 because it doesn’t model human behavior and that’s why threads on the topic will never end until there is a sense of meaningful roles.

Except you have roles.
You have offensive roles and support roles.

I qualified it by ‘meaningful’ combat roles. The only role truly meaningful in the game is DPS. And, you can know that from the current berserker dungeon meta which includes only one possible utility slot, not even support per se, but certain utilities that speed up the DPSing down of the boss or provide a general utility. The game is clearly about DPS, DPS, and DPS.

I will admit that certain roles (like anchor guardian) tried to emerge early on because, well, roles are what humans do, but the current meta centers around the highest possible DPS. Contrast that to the trinity, which I don’t necessarily support in that form, which has 3 clearly defined roles without which success is largely impossible. The trinity at least meets the reality test of IRL human needs and behavior.

Cooperal.8704:

Viking Jorun.5413:

Trinity = Forced routine

No Trinity = Skill-Based

Fixed.

Please, explain me how a dps role in a trinity setup attacking and using some self-defenses is a forced routine, while a dps role in a one-role-only setup (GW2) attacking and using some self-defenses while mindlessly stacking within fire fields is skill-based.

I have always played healer as my main role, and I don’t want to go back. In GW1, Aion, and WoW I played healers because I do enjoy party healing and people always need a healer. But after playing GW2 I wouldn’t go back even for the insta party invites and being mass added to friends lists. Why? Because it was tough to go out on my own in pve. True people would ask me for help and would help me in turn, but if I wanted to go out to some corner of the world and farm? I was half as effective as dps classes. I could solo most content by healing myself through it, but it took aaages! It might have been the easiest in GW1 because of the heroes (and the fact that I decked them all out in good gear), but kitten did I feel weak out in the wild in WoW and Aion.

Ash.2175:

I have always played healer as my main role, and I don’t want to go back. In GW1, Aion, and WoW I played healers because I do enjoy party healing and people always need a healer. But after playing GW2 I wouldn’t go back even for the insta party invites and being mass added to friends lists. Why? Because it was tough to go out on my own in pve. True people would ask me for help and would help me in turn, but if I wanted to go out to some corner of the world and farm? I was half as effective as dps classes. I could solo most content by healing myself through it, but it took aaages! It might have been the easiest in GW1 because of the heroes (and the fact that I decked them all out in good gear), but kitten did I feel weak out in the wild in WoW and Aion.

I can appreciate your stated problem. In WoW, I actually leveled a disc priest to 82 in cata before switching to shadow to get to 85. And, this is the key: all the healing classes had alternate DPS specs that you could instantly switch to (dual talent spec) for questing, dailies, or farming. Holy or disc priests could go shadow and resto druids could go balance all using the same gear. It wouldn’t be ideal for DPS, but serviceable, and it would allow the healing classes to DPS easily when necessary.

Holy Trinity, we are never (ever) getting back together.

/thread

Cooperal.8704:

Viking Jorun.5413:

Trinity = Forced routine

No Trinity = Skill-Based

Fixed.

Yet this game is far from being skill based…

Aeolus.3615:

Cooperal.8704:

Viking Jorun.5413:

Trinity = Forced routine

No Trinity = Skill-Based

Fixed.

Yet this game is far from being skill based…

Judging by how I (by which I mean the whole party) end up rage quitting in high leveled fractals in PUGs a lot, and how my guild clears fractal runs like skipping across grass fields, I’d say there is some skill involved.

The thing with a trinity-based system is that you end up being almost able to do encounters blindfolded because they’re basically a set of steps you work off a list. at least in GW2 there is more randomness which you have to adapt to.

Everything profitable in terms of reward per hour for PvE can be done in Berserker for players able to keep themselves alive on builds that rely on direct damage. Qualifiers are important.

The people I’ve met who wear Berserker and use condition damage just because the meta says it’s ‘the best’ without bothering to check what they’re doing… and the far greater number of geniuses who spend more time on the ground than fighting…

Also, there’s some dungeon paths for which full berserker/rampager parties will die… they’re just not an issue in the meta because people don’t do them, because berserkers/rampagers can’t do them… and frankly their rewards aren’t anything to write home about anyway.

Anti zergball/stacking game mechanics and better rewards for less commonly done dungeons (tokens as well – not just gold) would demolish the PvE meta.

Well, maybe not. There’s Tequatl. Look how that turned out – an event you can’t do by zerk zergballing alone? An event nobody does! \(^v^)/

Of course everything in PvE being done can be done by zerk zergs if everything that cannot be done by them is simply not being done. Does this surprise anyone?

Balthazar, where healing is important or else the NPCs die? Nobody does it! \(^v^)/

Dwayna/Monkey Lyssa, where survivability is important? Nobody cares because you can just zergresurrect the downed! \(^v^)/

Grenth, where surviving is essential, skill in evading portal circles and shades is needed, understanding the event in that shade killing and boss killing both have roles, where stacking is discouraged by shades and portal placement, and possibly where healing Jonez is important…. People rarely ever do it! \(^v^)/

Mind, I speak from a Crystal Desert perspective. Maybe Blackgate is different. Maybe the super low population servers are different. I highly doubt it, but maybe they are. But as far as I know, compensating for a weakness by avoiding situations where the weakness arises does not justify saying the weakness doesn’t exist.

Well a couple things come to mind.

1. Overabundance of DPS players, no tanks, healers online means you are forced to play something you dont like to remain competitive.

2. Stacking stats, lead to third party program, lead to in game version of counter, lead to elitism. Every heard this before? Your dps is to low, we need somebody else to complete this.

3. Egotistical Tanks – they often more times then not become self promoted leaders, some are great, others arent, and when you get those that arent, your forced to wait. Waiting isnt fun. Ever wait for a Doctor in the emergency room. Not fun.

There are more I can promise you.

There are definately faults currently. Like the feel the need to wear Zerker gear to compete. This feeling needs to change.

That kill credits for champion are based more on DPS then on anything else.

That WVW is more about DPS and its absorbtion and healing rather being truly balanced.

That the classes still seem less diversified and moreso rather flavor of the months.

But I will say this, Anet is doing a great job about tackling it while still bringing us massive living story, tweaking wvw, tweaking spvp, bringing us new features, etc.

You would never get this kind of service from a subscription based variant. Of course, youd have an expansion expected or coming out soon, but I degress.

I think zerker gear is fine as it is, its just that we don’t have enough rewarding content which makes zerking it take far more skill than in a defensive build.

I think optimally, you want everything to be doable in zerker gear, but it would be like doing Touhou on Lunatic difficulty or whatever they call it these days. On the really rewarding and highest-tier difficulty content, it should be one tiny little screwup and you’re dead in zerker gear, whilst other setups are more forgiving.

The perceived need of wearing max dps gear to compete only really applies to people who subscribe to the meta, and who don’t fully understand game mechanics.

I’ve never gotten complaints from the dead berserker thieves/warriors about my Celestial elementalist in the Crucible of Eternity when I solo down the bosses after they die 3 times, using up my invulns in the process of reviving them. Only the occasional ‘how the hell did we all get 25 might’.

A former guild mate of mine is doing rather well with his own original Toughness/Healing power build on his Ranger, in dungeons, WvW and fractals, without him people can and will wipe.

And the best player I’ve ever met was a virtually unkillable Guardian in the Aetherblade Retreat; when we did the dungeon in the early days of its release, that guy tanked Mai Trin and her lackey long enough alone to revive the entire dead party.

There is no need to subscribe to a meta just because many people do it. The strongest builds in the game are builds that maximise the characteristics of each class, and very few of them are well known, other than the permastealth burst thief. The celestial buffer/support/AoE elementalist, max clone tank/single target attacker mesmer, the healing power specced recovery ranger, the tank/conditioner/healer necro… all of these are extremely strong in their regard, and most players will never have met even one of them.

There’s more diversity than just ‘tank’, ‘healer’ and ‘dps’, and certainly a lot more diversity than ‘dps’ alone. Meta players just ignore their existence to specialise repeatedly farming the same events the meta is specialised for. Sometimes there’s even better ways to complete the same meta, but it requires too much effort to understand compared to ‘wear zerk carry GS spam 2’, so they’re left by the wayside in preference to those builds that can do relatively well and are very easy to execute.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Aeolus.3615:

Cooperal.8704:

Viking Jorun.5413:

Trinity = Forced routine

No Trinity = Skill-Based

Fixed.

Yet this game is far from being skill based…

Judging by how I (by which I mean the whole party) end up rage quitting in high leveled fractals in PUGs a lot, and how my guild clears fractal runs like skipping across grass fields, I’d say there is some skill involved.

The thing with a trinity-based system is that you end up being almost able to do encounters blindfolded because they’re basically a set of steps you work off a list. at least in GW2 there is more randomness which you have to adapt to.

There is skill in trinity games and skill in GW2 dpsing. It’s just different skills.

Trinity games operate with rigid roles and more predictable encounters. Similar to how a musician gets good at playing a composition in an orchestra. It caters towards competence more than twitch reflexes (skill)

GW2 operates more-or-less every man for himself. The encounters are far less predicable. Similar to how a musician can get good at sight-reading (aka, playing a piece of music the first time seeing it on a music sheet).

Personally, I prefer the trinity type because it is less chaotic. Add to the mixture GW2’s overwhelming particle effects and it becomes just that much more chaotic.

Hayashi.3416:

The perceived need of wearing max dps gear to compete only really applies to people who subscribe to the meta, and who don’t fully understand game mechanics.

I’ve never gotten complaints from the dead berserker thieves/warriors about my Celestial elementalist in the Crucible of Eternity when I solo down the bosses after they die 3 times, using up my invulns in the process of reviving them. Only the occasional ‘how the hell did we all get 25 might’.

A former guild mate of mine is doing rather well with his own original Toughness/Healing power build on his Ranger, in dungeons, WvW and fractals, without him people can and will wipe.

And the best player I’ve ever met was a virtually unkillable Guardian in the Aetherblade Retreat; when we did the dungeon in the early days of its release, that guy tanked Mai Trin and her lackey long enough alone to revive the entire dead party.

There is no need to subscribe to a meta just because many people do it. The strongest builds in the game are builds that maximise the characteristics of each class, and very few of them are well known, other than the permastealth burst thief. The celestial buffer/support/AoE elementalist, max clone tank/single target attacker mesmer, the healing power specced recovery ranger, the tank/conditioner/healer necro… all of these are extremely strong in their regard, and most players will never have met even one of them.

There’s more diversity than just ‘tank’, ‘healer’ and ‘dps’, and certainly a lot more diversity than ‘dps’ alone. Meta players just ignore their existence to specialise repeatedly farming the same events the meta is specialised for. Sometimes there’s even better ways to complete the same meta, but it requires too much effort to understand compared to ‘wear zerk carry GS spam 2’, so they’re left by the wayside in preference to those builds that can do relatively well and are very easy to execute.

You make several very important and valid points. But the blinded meta player rules, via in game population and cash in bank (A-nets). It is unfortunate that the game has not been adjusted to encourage the visibility of effective builds.

The game is like Holi, u can’t see kitten so damage is king.

Scrambles.2604:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Aeolus.3615:

Cooperal.8704:

Viking Jorun.5413:

Trinity = Forced routine

No Trinity = Skill-Based

Fixed.

Yet this game is far from being skill based…

Judging by how I (by which I mean the whole party) end up rage quitting in high leveled fractals in PUGs a lot, and how my guild clears fractal runs like skipping across grass fields, I’d say there is some skill involved.

The thing with a trinity-based system is that you end up being almost able to do encounters blindfolded because they’re basically a set of steps you work off a list. at least in GW2 there is more randomness which you have to adapt to.

Trinity games operate with rigid roles and more predictable encounters. Similar to how a musician gets good at playing a composition in an orchestra. It caters towards competence more than twitch reflexes (skill)

I might be nitpicking here but I think you’re using the word competence wrong. The very definition of competence is means the possession of adequate skill, and thus you can’t just call using another type of skill not catering to competence.

Anyways. Why can’t you have both? Why can’t you have sophisticated mechanics in a encounter but also bring in the element of chaos? Its perfectly possible and it does exist in plenty of games.

The thing I don’t quite like about scripted enounters is that they don’t feel realistic. The real world is chaotic, things don’t always happen in the same order and at the same time, you have to adapt to your situation and that makes things exciting: not fully knowing whats going to happen next. I don’t get an adrenaline rush from scripted encounters, I get the same feeling as going through accounts at work. Its not a bad thing because both are very interesting but I like to feel like I’m actually fighting.