If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Holy Trinity
Trinity = Forced routine
No Trinity = Skill-Based
Fixed.
Please, explain me how a dps role in a trinity setup attacking and using some self-defenses is a forced routine, while a dps role in a one-role-only setup (GW2) attacking and using some self-defenses while mindlessly stacking within fire fields is skill-based.
He doesn’t have to – I will.
In a trinity system each role – tank dps or healer does ONE thing.
A tank has to hold aggro – he doesn’t care about keeping himself alive ( not his job) nor does he care what damage he outputs ( again not his job).
Each of these roles only care about their little part of the fight and ignore the others.
GW2 – different story – you have to keep yourself alive ( dodges and heals + blocks and evades) and keep your DPS up ( proper weapon rotation) AND support your group in order to keep effectiveness up at 100% ( Blocks, buff stacking, stealth etc).
You need to do ALL three of these in order to be considered a good player.
If you’re doing just two – you might be decent.
If you’re doing just one – people won’t want you.
So yes – it is more skill based because now you have to work on multiple angles not just one.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Trinity = Forced routine
No Trinity = Skill-Based
Fixed.
Please, explain me how a dps role in a trinity setup attacking and using some self-defenses is a forced routine, while a dps role in a one-role-only setup (GW2) attacking and using some self-defenses while mindlessly stacking within fire fields is skill-based.
He doesn’t have to – I will.
In a trinity system each role – tank dps or healer does ONE thing.
A tank has to hold aggro – he doesn’t care about keeping himself alive ( not his job) nor does he care what damage he outputs ( again not his job).Each of these roles only care about their little part of the fight and ignore the others.
GW2 – different story – you have to keep yourself alive ( dodges and heals + blocks and evades) and keep your DPS up ( proper weapon rotation) AND support your group in order to keep effectiveness up at 100% ( Blocks, buff stacking, stealth etc).
You need to do ALL three of these in order to be considered a good player.
If you’re doing just two – you might be decent.
If you’re doing just one – people won’t want you.
So yes – it is more skill based because now you have to work on multiple angles not just one.
MISLEADING!
In [real] trinity encounters fights are designed with that system in mind. Have you ever downed content in WoW? I have – and you know what, each head of the trinity has it’s own unique challenges. Anyone here who has defeated Siegecrafter Blackfuse knows this, and Blackfuse is but one example. Also, you said the following:
“A tank has to hold aggro – he doesn’t care about keeping himself alive ( not his job) "
^Ummm, do you know how tanking works? Go try tanking in a trinity game without worrying about keeping yourself alive (what do you think defensive cooldowns are for?). A tank is very concerned with keeping himself alive. One who isn’t will be eating the floor… even in moderately challenging content.
What a trinity system will do is allow for more complex mechanics where each role is presented with a unique challenge. Sure, bash WoW all you want (and I truly understand why one would), but show me somethin in this game that challenges like Sunwell did, like Black Temple did, or like Heroic SoO does now.
Skill based? These bosses don’t have 1/10 the mechanics as WoW, a trinity game. What I mean to say is a trinity promotes encounters that are actually complex while challenging each role, whereas a trinityless system favors the zerg… oh and dodging.
Here’s a truth: I am a gamer of average skill, yet I pretty much own in this game, I do the hardest content, yet I’m not good enough to defeat heroic SoO in WoW, and I am far from alone on that one. Why is that? Because this system is much less skilled base.
Except you need support roles to do any sort of serious high-end content ( see fractals) and you can’t dps your way to the top of the new LS tower – some examples.
Another role could easily pop up – control – if Anet would kindly fix the horrid idea that is Defiant on bosses.
Currently you have DPS and Support. No control – because you can’t do it.
In sPVP you have a lot more " meaningful " combat roles because there’s no such thing as defiant.
Well, you can in a zerg, but you can do anything and its kitten in a zerg nowadays. As for soloing the LS tower… that’s only possible with at least Celestial level survivability, though Knight survivability makes it even easier.
Defiant has a place in that no boss will be a challenge if people can stunlock it nonstop until it never gets to attack. However, I do agree the current defiance mechanic is nonsensical, and should be replaced by a global cooldown (say, 10 seconds) rather than stacks that must be removed one skill activation at a time, especially when people spam skill nonstop and don’t seem to understand the importance of using control skills to Interrupt.
MISLEADING!
In [real] trinity encounters fights are designed with that system in mind. Have you ever downed content in WoW? I have – and you know what, each head of the trinity has it’s own unique challenges. Anyone here who has defeated Siegecrafter Blackfuse knows this, and Blackfuse is but one example. Also, you said the following:
“A tank has to hold aggro – he doesn’t care about keeping himself alive ( not his job) "
^Ummm, do you know how tanking works? Go try tanking in a trinity game without worrying about keeping yourself alive (what do you think defensive cooldowns are for?). A tank is very concerned with keeping himself alive. One who isn’t will be eating the floor… even in moderately challenging content.
What a trinity system will do is allow for more complex mechanics where each role is presented with a unique challenge. Sure, bash WoW all you want (and I truly understand why one would), but show me somethin in this game that challenges like Sunwell did, like Black Temple did, or like Heroic SoO does now.
Skill based? These bosses don’t have 1/10 the mechanics as WoW, a trinity game. What I mean to say is a trinity promotes encounters that are actually complex while challenging each role, whereas a trinityless system favors the zerg… oh and dodging.
Here’s a truth: I am a gamer of average skill, yet I pretty much own in this game, I do the hardest content, yet I’m not good enough to defeat heroic SoO in WoW, and I am far from alone on that one. Why is that? Because this system is much less skilled base.
I could start my argumentations about gw2 with the same word as you did, considering you think 5 men content is now a zerg.
Defiant has a place in that no boss will be a challenge if people can stunlock it nonstop until it never gets to attack. However, I do agree the current defiance mechanic is nonsensical, and should be replaced by a global cooldown (say, 10 seconds) rather than stacks that must be removed one skill activation at a time, especially when people spam skill nonstop and don’t seem to understand the importance of using control skills to Interrupt.
And what’s the point of interrupting an ability when it goes on 5s cooldown? Aegis is much better in that situation.
It is a zerg, Haviz. I am recently coming off a 4 month break – ran a few 5 mans, it’s pretty much the same zerg as before. Rush down on a boss and DPS the hell out of him, minimal mechanics. Note: I never said there were no mechanics in GW2, I said in my direct words, “a trinityless system favors the zerg.” Favors, FaVoRs, FAVORS.
You must think monsters are human players who spam every non auto attack skill on their bar. AI does not use skills as appropriate when off cooldown. They use skills when certain predefined criteria are reached, and when those criteria do not apply, they use skills in a predefined skill rotation.
Have you actually attempted to kill a world boss alone, or looked at a fractal boss’s behaviour properly? Certain skills are one-hit kill affairs, and only trigger in certain rotations – if you interrupt them, it takes the mob another 40-50 seconds to reach the same point in the skill rotation again, whereby you could interrupt them again.
Take for instance the Whirlwind attack of the Risen Priest of Melandru. It AoE downs all players without Invuln who did not dodge in time and it has far more than enough hits to pierce Aegis and Protection easily. It activates as the 7th skill in a 40 second rotation involving cleave attacks with his weapon, a knockback single attack leap skill with his weapon, an Earthquake AoE with a 300 unit radius which launches and damages, tossing 5x black projectiles which bleeds immobilises all targets it touches, before following up with 5x earth spike attacks from the ground which can be dodged, and finally the whirlwind AoE knockback. Interrupting the Whirlwind ensures he cannot use it until the entire rotation is repeated. Formerly, his morphing of players into drakes at the 75%, 50%, 25% marks was also Interruptible, until Anet decided to change that 5 second animation into an instant cast. Knowing and using that Interruption is why I could solo Melandru to death, where full parties fail. (Past tense, because the instant cast nature now makes that mechanic compulsory.)
Or the Megadestroyer, whose Summoning attacks at phases 75% and 50% can be entirely cancelled out by an Interrupt chain at the correct timing, so that he never disappears beneath the lava.
At higher level fractals, players, especially Elementalists, always Interrupt the Jellyfish boss’s stunning Whirl attack, preventing it from doing any damage. This is made possible by the fact that Float and Sink are exempt from the Defiant mechanic.
In guild missions, the bounty that swallows players (Big Mayana) can be Interrupted to keep all players in a fight.
Against the Legendary Risen Priestess of Dwayna, the Priestess’ revives on the Veteran Acolytes can be Interrupted. If left to revive, they will summon Veteran risen Knights and Risen Plague Carriers, whose explosions are the main cause of downs at the temples.
The Champion Krait Witch at present is impossible to solo due to its summoning of 4 veterans and approximately 9 normal mobs, most of which use ranged attacks. If Defiant wasn’t there and one could Interrupt at will, none of its summons will ever get to proc, making it easy to solo.
The Orrian Champion Risen Drake Broodmother must be fought underwater so its eggs don’t hatch, or the 30 summons it creates will lead to instadowns. If it could be reliably Interrupted, the Charge attack that creates the eggs can be nullified.
There’s a lot more examples that anyone who actually bothered to fight will know about. The current version of the Defiant mechanic, in placing too many stacks of Defiant there, makes it harder to Interrupt mobs when they should be Interrupted. Knockdown is still ok, what gets on our nerves is people who waste a zero-defiant stack status on a useless 1 second stun without even Interrupting anything important.
MIKAZUKI - [Aura, MES, WvW CapCOM] [Ishigaki, GUA, WvW DefCOM] [Yumiya, RAN, WvW Sieger]
[Shinigami, NEC, WvW Condinuke] [Rekka, ELE, Fracs] [Tora, PS WAR] [Kageoni, THI] [Hayako, ENG]
[Shinigami, NEC, WvW Condinuke] [Rekka, ELE, Fracs] [Tora, PS WAR] [Kageoni, THI] [Hayako, ENG]
(edited by Hayashi.3416)
Balancing aside, as all games will need this, I much prefer the non-trinity attempt made by Anet. It’s not perfect, but it’s an awesome start in the right direction. A player needs to have the freedom to be able to build their character in what ever way they want to play, and to some degree you can do that in GW2.
My Guardian is very tanky and helps a lot in keeping a team alive through healing and buffs. My Thief is very offensive, yet I can bail allies out of trouble and help buff the team with combos. My Engineer is geared for high damage but built for a lot of control and some good support.
All professions are able to build for a variety of roles, you just need to play around with the right traits, skills and gear. All Anet needs to do (I say that like it’s easy, sorry Anet, I know it’s not) is to improve each profession to allow for more variety in builds and more flexibility in roles. But as far as I am concerned, they have done a pretty good job so far, considering the non-trinity system is relatively new to the genre. I would say GW2’s combat is the best there is on the market so far, and the non-trinity system is partly responsible for that IMO.
It is a zerg, Haviz. I am recently coming off a 4 month break – ran a few 5 mans, it’s pretty much the same zerg as before. Rush down on a boss and DPS the hell out of him, minimal mechanics. Note: I never said there were no mechanics in GW2, I said in my direct words, “a trinityless system favors the zerg.” Favors, FaVoRs, FAVORS.
Zerg is definitely not 5 people.
You must think monsters are human players who spam every non auto attack skill on their bar. AI does not use skills as appropriate when off cooldown. They use skills when certain predefined criteria are reached, and when those criteria do not apply, they use skills in a predefined skill rotation.
Most of those criteria you speak of are most likely something like “range < x”. Predefined skill rotation is a vast overestimation.
Have you actually attempted to kill a world boss alone, or looked at a fractal boss’s behaviour properly? Certain skills are one-hit kill affairs, and only trigger in certain rotations – if you interrupt them, it takes the mob another 40-50 seconds to reach the same point in the skill rotation again, whereby you could interrupt them again.
I am not going to gloat here but in fact I did kill temple bosses in group of 2-3 players on daily basis.
Take for instance the Whirlwind attack of the Risen Priest of Melandru. It AoE downs all players without Invuln who did not dodge in time and it has far more than enough hits to pierce Aegis and Protection easily. It activates as the 7th skill in a 40 second rotation involving cleave attacks with his weapon, a knockback single attack leap skill with his weapon, an Earthquake AoE with a 300 unit radius which launches and damages, tossing 5x black projectiles which bleeds immobilises all targets it touches, before following up with 5x earth spike attacks from the ground which can be dodged, and finally the whirlwind AoE knockback. Interrupting the Whirlwind ensures he cannot use it until the entire rotation is repeated. Formerly, his morphing of players into drakes at the 75%, 50%, 25% marks was also Interruptible, until Anet decided to change that 5 second animation into an instant cast. Knowing and using that Interruption is why I could solo Melandru to death, where full parties fail. (Past tense, because the instant cast nature now makes that mechanic compulsory.)
His Whirlwind attack is definitely not on 40 second rotation. I recorded partial duo of him and he uses it much often and if you watch it closely you would come up with the conclusion that there is no skill rotation.
Or the Megadestroyer, whose Summoning attacks at phases 75% and 50% can be entirely cancelled out by an Interrupt chain at the correct timing, so that he never disappears beneath the lava.
Can’t say I ever done him.
At higher level fractals, players, especially Elementalists, always Interrupt the Jellyfish boss’s stunning Whirl attack, preventing it from doing any damage. This is made possible by the fact that Float and Sink are exempt from the Defiant mechanic.
I actually do that but fractals overally are really bad idea to bring up since at levels 70+ bosses have 30+ stacks of defiant.
In guild missions, the bounty that swallows players (Big Mayana) can be Interrupted to keep all players in a fight.
Have not done her(?) ever.
Against the Legendary Risen Priestess of Dwayna, the Priestess’ revives on the Veteran Acolytes can be Interrupted. If left to revive, they will summon Veteran risen Knights and Risen Plague Carriers, whose explosions are the main cause of downs at the temples.
With just 2-3 people you can simply burst her before she starts to revives anyone.
There’s a lot more examples that anyone who actually bothered to fight will know about. The current version of the Defiant mechanic, in placing too many stacks of Defiant there, makes it harder to Interrupt mobs when they should be Interrupted. Knockdown is still ok, what gets on our nerves is people who waste a zero-defiant stack status on a useless 1 second stun without even Interrupting anything important.
Every dungeon boss I solo’d including lupicus do not have any skill rotations and if you interrupt most of their attacks they will use it again shortly. The only exception from that rule that I know of is Legendary Berserker Abomination but if you interrupt his berserkering too early it will go on 5s cooldown anyway.
It always amazes me that The Secret World solved this problem with their open build system but ANet can’t solve it in GW2….
As it is right now, there is no reason to experiment in GW2. In the end, the choice comes down to, “What shade of DPS do you want to be?” ANet needs to figure out how to balance their PvE content and create better group dynamics. It may not need the Trinity but it sure as heck needs something.
And maybe it is because it is the fault of the player base itself. I think ANet put the tools in the game to have build variety but the player base is either too lazy or too obsessed with having the “best” build to experiment with all of the tools in the game.
Maybe the meta is killing the actual game team dynamics.
I know this, there have been so many threads about this on these forums that ANet has to realize that there is a problem.
(edited by Darkeus.2369)
I know this, there have been so many threads about this on these forums that ANet has to realize that there is a problem.
That’s debatable.
I know this, there have been so many threads about this on these forums that ANet has to realize that there is a problem.
That’s debatable.
Yeah, good point. They might not give a kitten as well….
Here’s a truth: I am a gamer of average skill, yet I pretty much own in this game, I do the hardest content, yet I’m not good enough to defeat heroic SoO in WoW, and I am far from alone on that one. Why is that? Because this system is much less skilled base.
No offense sir but what you present is not a supported as truth or fact. Correlation does not imply causation. For all you, or we, know you are so very much more capable in GW2 than in WoW because your particular talents are more suited to this game than to WoW.
Here’s a truth: I am a gamer of average skill, yet I pretty much own in this game, I do the hardest content, yet I’m not good enough to defeat heroic SoO in WoW, and I am far from alone on that one. Why is that? Because this system is much less skilled base.
No offense sir but what you present is not a supported as truth or fact. Correlation does not imply causation. For all you, or we, know you are so very much more capable in GW2 than in WoW because your particular talents are more suited to this game than to WoW.
“No offense sir but what you present is not a supported as truth or fact. "
Oh no offense taken – if anything I am slightly amused. Read on to learn why.
“Correlation does not imply causation.”
I love it when people say this because it’s so easy to shoot down. See you are incorrect, correlation does imply causation – at least it does until you are able to arrive at a theory which is less false. In the end, it’s a good place to begin, unlike the trite and rather shallow argument you bring to the table. On the surface saying “correlation does not imply causation” does sound rather fancy, so I understand why you would say such a thing.
“For all you, or we, know you are so very much more capable in GW2 than in WoW because your particular talents are more suited to this game than to WoW.”
Exactly! Know why? Because GW2 is a much easier game due in part to a lack of a trinity making for rather bland encounters that favors relatively mindless tactics being employed to defeat said encounter.
It always amazes me that The Secret World solved this problem with their open build system but ANet can’t solve it in GW2….
As it is right now, there is no reason to experiment in GW2. In the end, the choice comes down to, “What shade of DPS do you want to be?” ANet needs to figure out how to balance their PvE content and create better group dynamics. It may not need the Trinity but it sure as heck needs something.
TSW didn’t solve the problem of the trinity. The game relies on a hard setup of healer/tank/DD in every dungeon, the only thing different is that the DD needs more skill to play compared to most other games and that there’s leech healing as well as the traditonal heal.
Its a darn good game (apart from the huge lack of visual character customization and having terrible animations and textures), but it wasn’t innovative in its combat.
“Correlation does not imply causation.”
I love it when people say this because it’s so easy to shoot down. See you are incorrect, correlation does imply causation – at least it does until you are able to arrive at a theory which is less false. In the end, it’s a good place to begin, unlike the trite and rather shallow argument you bring to the table. On the surface saying “correlation does not imply causation” does sound rather fancy, so I understand why you would say such a thing.
So, how does correlation imply causation? I took stats 4yrs ago and I remember my teacher telling it does not.
It always amazes me that The Secret World solved this problem with their open build system but ANet can’t solve it in GW2….
As it is right now, there is no reason to experiment in GW2. In the end, the choice comes down to, “What shade of DPS do you want to be?” ANet needs to figure out how to balance their PvE content and create better group dynamics. It may not need the Trinity but it sure as heck needs something.
TSW didn’t solve the problem of the trinity. The game relies on a hard setup of healer/tank/DD in every dungeon, the only thing different is that the DD needs more skill to play compared to most other games and that there’s leech healing as well as the traditonal heal.
Its a darn good game (apart from the huge lack of visual character customization and having terrible animations and textures), but it wasn’t innovative in its combat.
Ah, ah…. I did not say it was innovative in its combat. However, to say that the only thing different is leech healing is a bit misleading. There are three different types of Tanks (Evade, Glance and Block) dozens of types of DPS builds and at least three different ways to Heal. As for the animations and textures, that is personal opinion. Ironically, so is the argument for and against the trinity.
And that is just what has been experimented with. People come up with new builds every week.
And that is really kind of the point too. Instead of these types of threads, there should be build threads, not arguments about the Trinity. Let us just say this, you don’t see this argument on their forums. They have an open build system that is clkitten yet they still have team dynamics. And you do not need the trinity to complete the dungeons either by the way. I have beat dungeons with no tank, beat The Cat God with four DPS builds and a lot of other examples. The dungeons are far from requiring hard, defined roles. You can get by with many different combinations. People tend to stick with the traditional 1-1-3 format because it is familiar and easier….
It always amazes me that The Secret World solved this problem with their open build system but ANet can’t solve it in GW2….
As it is right now, there is no reason to experiment in GW2. In the end, the choice comes down to, “What shade of DPS do you want to be?” ANet needs to figure out how to balance their PvE content and create better group dynamics. It may not need the Trinity but it sure as heck needs something.
TSW didn’t solve the problem of the trinity. The game relies on a hard setup of healer/tank/DD in every dungeon, the only thing different is that the DD needs more skill to play compared to most other games and that there’s leech healing as well as the traditonal heal.
Its a darn good game (apart from the huge lack of visual character customization and having terrible animations and textures), but it wasn’t innovative in its combat.
Ah, ah…. I did not say it was innovative in its combat. However, to say that the only thing different is leech healing is a bit misleading. There are three different types of Tanks (Evade, Glance and Block) dozens of types of DPS builds and at least three different ways to Heal. As for the animations and textures, that is personal opinion. Ironically, so is the argument for and against the trinity.
Evade, glance and block are statistical differences. Yes, there’s passives which you can proc off them but you still tank in the same way as you always tanked.
The dozens of DPS builds aren’t really anything new. In any game with builds you got dozens of DPS builds, or rather, builds for everything, because otherwise it wouldn’t be a game with builds.
There’s really only 2 main ways to heal. Blood magic heals/barriers or assault rifle leech heals. There’s a few other ways to heal (like the passive on pistols that AoE heals when an enemy dies) but they’re more there to support your healing rather than be their own individual way to heal.
It always amazes me that The Secret World solved this problem with their open build system but ANet can’t solve it in GW2….
As it is right now, there is no reason to experiment in GW2. In the end, the choice comes down to, “What shade of DPS do you want to be?” ANet needs to figure out how to balance their PvE content and create better group dynamics. It may not need the Trinity but it sure as heck needs something.
TSW didn’t solve the problem of the trinity. The game relies on a hard setup of healer/tank/DD in every dungeon, the only thing different is that the DD needs more skill to play compared to most other games and that there’s leech healing as well as the traditonal heal.
Its a darn good game (apart from the huge lack of visual character customization and having terrible animations and textures), but it wasn’t innovative in its combat.
Ah, ah…. I did not say it was innovative in its combat. However, to say that the only thing different is leech healing is a bit misleading. There are three different types of Tanks (Evade, Glance and Block) dozens of types of DPS builds and at least three different ways to Heal. As for the animations and textures, that is personal opinion. Ironically, so is the argument for and against the trinity.
Evade, glance and block are statistical differences. Yes, there’s passives which you can proc off them but you still tank in the same way as you always tanked.
The dozens of DPS builds aren’t really anything new. In any game with builds you got dozens of DPS builds, or rather, builds for everything, because otherwise it wouldn’t be a game with builds.
There’s really only 2 main ways to heal. Blood magic heals/barriers or assault rifle leech heals. There’s a few other ways to heal (like the passive on pistols that AoE heals when an enemy dies) but they’re more there to support your healing rather than be their own individual way to heal.
Not exactly how it works but okay. They are much more than stats. Skill synergys are very important. A glance tank uses different skills and techniques than a Block tank.
There is much more complexity to the system than how you are explaining it.
But the real issue is that they have found a way to have an open build system that lets you experiment and fulfill a role in a team. GW2 does not do this very well unfortunately. That is my point I guess. I like GW2 but this is the main issue to me, team dynamics in GW2 PvE needs some work.
It always amazes me that The Secret World solved this problem with their open build system but ANet can’t solve it in GW2….
As it is right now, there is no reason to experiment in GW2. In the end, the choice comes down to, “What shade of DPS do you want to be?” ANet needs to figure out how to balance their PvE content and create better group dynamics. It may not need the Trinity but it sure as heck needs something.
TSW didn’t solve the problem of the trinity. The game relies on a hard setup of healer/tank/DD in every dungeon, the only thing different is that the DD needs more skill to play compared to most other games and that there’s leech healing as well as the traditonal heal.
Its a darn good game (apart from the huge lack of visual character customization and having terrible animations and textures), but it wasn’t innovative in its combat.
Ah, ah…. I did not say it was innovative in its combat. However, to say that the only thing different is leech healing is a bit misleading. There are three different types of Tanks (Evade, Glance and Block) dozens of types of DPS builds and at least three different ways to Heal. As for the animations and textures, that is personal opinion. Ironically, so is the argument for and against the trinity.
Evade, glance and block are statistical differences. Yes, there’s passives which you can proc off them but you still tank in the same way as you always tanked.
The dozens of DPS builds aren’t really anything new. In any game with builds you got dozens of DPS builds, or rather, builds for everything, because otherwise it wouldn’t be a game with builds.
There’s really only 2 main ways to heal. Blood magic heals/barriers or assault rifle leech heals. There’s a few other ways to heal (like the passive on pistols that AoE heals when an enemy dies) but they’re more there to support your healing rather than be their own individual way to heal.
Not exactly how it works but okay. They are much more than stats. Skill synergys are very important. A glance tank uses different skills and techniques than a Block tank.
There is much more complexity to the system than how you are explaining it.
But the real issue is that they have found a way to have an open build system that lets you experiment and fulfill a role in a team. GW2 does not do this very well unfortunately. That is my point I guess. I like GW2 but this is the main issue to me, team dynamics in GW2 PvE needs some work.
My point is that the gameplay for a tank is still the same thing as before. Your build is different between them, but the core ideas isn’t.
What I mean by different is for example, if you had a summoner tank which used a summoned creature to draw aggro and take hits for you, with you on the side pulling its strings. Or what Mesmers are kind of able to do, making clones which distract the enemy and occupy them with conditions and CC skills.
The thing here is that I don’t think GW2’s mechanics wanted the kind of dependence you’re looking for. In TSW for example, if the healer goes down, its game over, party wiped. GW2’s mechanics are more either like everyone is either mostly independent but utilizing class-specific mechanics to contribute to a fight or if there is a specific mechanic which needs to be done, the role is adaptable by everyone.
For example, having a Guardian throwing boons around and Aegising massive attacks is very helpful, and adds to an encounter, but it isn’t absolutely necessary. Similarly, e.g. in TA Aetherpath on the first boss, if the person who was luring the slime around dies, anyone can be his replacement.
Different tastes in my opinion. I’m pretty indifferent to both because I got some terrible memories PUGing in TSW and meeting some absolutely useless healers or tanks, causing the entire party to wipe.
“Correlation does not imply causation.”
I love it when people say this because it’s so easy to shoot down. See you are incorrect, correlation does imply causation – at least it does until you are able to arrive at a theory which is less false. In the end, it’s a good place to begin, unlike the trite and rather shallow argument you bring to the table. On the surface saying “correlation does not imply causation” does sound rather fancy, so I understand why you would say such a thing.
So, how does correlation imply causation? I took stats 4yrs ago and I remember my teacher telling it does not.
Because the sort of causation Ashen spoke of does not imply a linear correlation. I’d wager the teacher said what you just mentioned with respect linear statistics. That does not apply here, which is why my response to him hit the mark.
edited for clarity
(edited by Sarabande.8260)