Guild Wars 2

I am starting to think that tank in this game is as much about ones ability to heal as ones passive defensive stats.

I think the ele that’s running around kitting the boss with half a tank of hp and never goes down is just as good a “tank” as the warrior who stands in front of the boss in a “traditional tanking position”…

It’s the purpose of the roles that counts. A tank usually has the purpose of distracting the enemies and boss, taking most of the damage so the rest of the team can kill them. As long as the purpose is full filled, what matter does it make if it’s a warrior or a squishy caster?

On the other hand, what’s a tank and a dedicated healer good for if the mob can’t do much damage? If a boss is rendered immobile, confused, blinded etc, and most of the team has some kind of damage neglecting protection on the whole time, does it matter if the entire team focus on DPS to kill the mob as fast as possible?

For example:
When there’s 3 people randomly gathered at an event, un-grouped, and do not know each other. I can count on all three of us being able to kite, deal damage, and stay alive. That means instead of having ONE of each: healer/tank/damage, this random group is 3x healer/tank/damage. Each one of us can take up all these roles during different times and rotate as needed. The team is flexible and no one person need to get stuck doing the same thing the entire time.

Best thing is that this system doesn’t require us to stand around for a specific class to come around to complete the trinity. Take any player and make up any trinity at any time.

I would say that the Trinity has evolved… my two cents…

digiowl.9620:

I am starting to think that tank in this game is as much about ones ability to heal as ones passive defensive stats.

It absolutely is, which just goes further to illustrate why the terms “tank” and “healer” have little relevance in this game.

A lot of people claim say you should go with Soldier’s gear for top defense, but in reality, most builds should really be using some pieces of Apothecary, Giver or Cleric sets.

There’s surely a break point where investing in healing overtakes investment in vitality and vice-versa but being that healing in this game is very self reliant, a solid healing stat is critical to being really durable.

Omega.1473:

digiowl.9620:

I am starting to think that tank in this game is as much about ones ability to heal as ones passive defensive stats.

It absolutely is, which just goes further to illustrate why the terms “tank” and “healer” have little relevance in this game.

A lot of people claim say you should go with Soldier’s gear for top defense, but in reality, most builds should really be using some pieces of Apothecary, Giver or Cleric sets.

There’s surely a break point where investing in healing overtakes investment in vitality and vice-versa but being that healing in this game is very self reliant, a solid healing stat is critical to being really durable.

Yea. The source of my thinking are that almost universally the people that claim they can “facetank” a situation are the ones that have reached level 60 and unlocked some profession trait that allows them to heal while doing other things (damage, applying boons, that sort of thing).

I wonder how much ANet late beta decision to split the traits into tiers affected PVE gameplay experience vis a vis sPVP.

digiowl.9620:

Yea. The source of my thinking are that almost universally the people that claim they can “facetank” a situation are the ones that have reached level 60 and unlocked some profession trait that allows them to heal while doing other things (damage, applying boons, that sort of thing).

I wonder how much ANet late beta decision to split the traits into tiers affected PVE gameplay experience vis a vis sPVP.

To the first part, that does seem to be the case. Healing shout Warriors, Altruistic Healing/dodge Guardians, Arcane/Water swapping Elementalists, SigofWild+Natural Healing+Healing Spring Rangers, SigofMalice+Dagger Storm Thief. All sets that take little to no focus on actively healing but still yield big healing numbers over time due to trait or skill combos.

That’s why I’ve built for Precision, Toughness and Healing (with incidental Power and Vitality) on a lot of my durable builds. The combo of Healing and Toughness outweighs the boost from Vitality and also helps out allies and pets. Add in Precision for the numerous “Heal% on Crit” traits, foods and sigils and you’ve got a tough customer.

To the second point, I think that the tier split was necessary because certain traits are definitely more attractive than others and having everything open to every tier level would take out a lot of the “this or that” choice in building characters. I think the bigger problem is the fact that there are so many high tier traits that are UNattractive. If anything, they simply need a boost to be competitive and draw people into those tiers.

Yep, yep. But remember that in sPVP you start with all trait tiers open from the word go. On PVE however you are half way into the game before you even have a chance at using grandmaster traits. And the grandmaster tier is where you find most of the “heal on X” type traits.

This means that PVE players do not get the same sense of freedom in build as sPVPers, as they are almost forced to build DPS characters to be survivable for the opening part of the game. This because most of the DPS comes from weapon skills they can open up fairly quickly, but the support side stuff come from utility skills and traits.

i don’t think anet actually removed the trinity, but rather they just heavily modified it

instead of having tank/healer/dps like in wow, you instead have dps and support roles,

there’s dps which, of course, is doing damage to enemies

and there’s support which ranges from doing minor heals and buffing allies, to debuffing enemies and ccing them to even quickly executing enemies with low hp (yup, i consider that a form of support)

as for anet intending for professions to be played differently from one another, well, that was supposed to be the point of professions

your not supposed to be able to “tank” as an elementalist because there is no tanking role in gw2, there’s just damage mitigation which some classes are better at then others, elementalists get other traits that seperate them from other classes though, such as their large number of aoe attacks

and if every class could play identical to one another, there would be no point in having professions in the first place

Uh, dear Op, elementalists can be some of the tankiest characters in the game. Perhaps the single most-tankifiable class is necro which is light armor. Even mesmer, the last light armor class, can be made to tank very well, and in fact, can prolly hold aggro off of teammates better than most other tanks.

Guardians and warriors can be squishy. Heck, guardians can become a classic glass cannon finger waggler if you so desired. Warriors can be spec’d into respectable battlefield medics.

The classes have almost no real effect on what role or how many they can fit in. Except engineer. The only role they’re allowed to play is corpse. Gives the medic warriors someone to practice their buffed rezzes on

I’m wondering now if in WOW, prior to the last expansion and the set trait trees, did any groups try playing more like GW2? Some trait point schemes I tried were going 33/33/33 in the trait trees, but I never did this with a hybrid class.
Did anyone ever try it with a dungeon run with everyone being hybrid and no expert role? That is, everyone DPSs, everyone watches out for themselves and everyone else, everyone pulls the aggro off comrades who need help, and everyone heals when they need it.
Is it possible that the trinity is actually a social construct not actually required in WoW or other MMOs?

FacesOfMu.3561:

Did anyone ever try it with a dungeon run with everyone being hybrid and no expert role? That is, everyone DPSs, everyone watches out for themselves and everyone else, everyone pulls the aggro off comrades who need help, and everyone heals when they need it.

that’s how things usually happen whenever i group with others, either in party (mostly for dungeons) or in passing (out exploring)

most of the time i don’t even know what class someone is till they use a signature move or trait. i don’t care if you are guardian, warrior or mesmer.. .the question is, can you add something to the group? if yes, you can be a tap dancing moa bird for all i care

Mirta no offense, but you propably didnt follow or understand what isslair is talking abaut.

What’s pretty funny is how they tell you, you can run any build your heart desires, so idiots like me would dedicate time and resource to engineer condition dmg build, then you run into a dungeon boss who regenerates health from condition damage.

They really sold this game a certain way and did a complete bait and switch. Pretty foul.

smekras.8203:

that’s how things usually happen whenever i group with others, either in party (mostly for dungeons) or in passing (out exploring)

most of the time i don’t even know what class someone is till they use a signature move or trait. i don’t care if you are guardian, warrior or mesmer.. .the question is, can you add something to the group? if yes, you can be a tap dancing moa bird for all i care

Sorry Smekras, I mistakenly left out that I was referring to WOW. Was wondering if anyone had tried running WOW dungeons using hybrid classes and hybrid builds?

@FacesOfMu

if i remember correctly fire/ice mages were decent, does that count as a hybrid?

There isn’t trinity, only unity. DPS is nearly all that matters once you’ve figured out the dungeon mechanics.

I dunno, my sister plays an ele and i play a warrior and more often than not she is drawing aggro and directing the fight while I am healing her. I would call that a definite role reversal….

I don’t think people will acknowledge that the trinity is gone until they remove healing and damage reduce abilities overall from the game.

One thing I do miss about the Trinity was the reality.
Take for example real (as can be) battles, it’s hollywood but go watch Braveheart, they fight toe to toe and not one of them rolled about the floor (unless in pain).
I think thats what bugs me the most, it’s turned rpg into arcade.

Snowy.9580:

One thing I do miss about the Trinity was the reality.
Take for example real (as can be) battles, it’s hollywood but go watch Braveheart…

How many healers did you see in Braveheart lol.
You can’t compare any game system to reality, it’s just wrong.

Rustypipes.6238:

So, if you choose to have professions in an MMO, you can’t really avoid having a “Holy Trinity Model”.

Well I hate to burst your bubble but they have an MMO without a holy trinity model and although you disagree with it, it’s working fine for many people and has been since launch.

I’m not “fan boying” the thread, just pointing out a simple fact that you seem to disagree with, which is fine, but your opinions are not facts.

You stating , as fact, that it’s working out for most people (somehow contrary to the 1000+ pages worth of discussion FOR the institution of a more defined trinity and complimentary skill system) is no less a contradiction than any other poster stating that the trinity is a completely objective solution for the fundamental issues in this game. Your opinion is not fact and neither is his, but i will make an attempt at offering up something objectionable.

In my opinion, the fundamental issues in this game are:

- Imbalanced population spread beacause of FoTM, complete separation of sPvP from PvE, WvW money sinks and overall feeling of meaninglessness, etc.

- No reason to really group with other people in an MMO (problem here?) outside of dungeon content. Encounters are designed for solo and group, but are mixed together. The underlying world design does not support or encourage strategic grouping.

- The skill and class systems lack identifiable combat roles and specialization. There are no healers in this game. This means that bosses have to be designed to feign challenge by having astronomical health bars and mechanics supported by a simplistic dodge / DPS system. To this end, many feel that this game plays like a single-player co-op RPG.

- Content design that doesn’t support the above.

- Reliance on designing with grind as a gameplay principle. I never felt like i was grinding in GW1 because the inherent gameplay method, combat, was engaging and filled with options as well as risk and reward. Playing with others in this game seems like a cooperative grind rather than an MMO experience. This is aided by the class design, lack of roles, and redundancy in group content.

- The skill system should challenge players to form tactics, builds, team strategy, roles, and play-styles for desired situations. There is a lack of competition and a lack of purpose to being one class over another, which is a psychological mechanic that plays a large role in why people play MMOs. They want that group association, the feeling of being needed or integral to an operation. It is the very thing that drives the human spirit. This may seem vague, but if you’ve played other MMOs, you know exactly what im talking about.

- Absolutely kitten poor story-telling and purpose driven gameplay from questing. Hearts and events exemplify an astounding lack of depth to their purpose (questing). I’ve been engaged, more so, by large walls of text in more traditional MMOs (not WoW) outlining a quest objective and purpose than any of the PvE questing methods this game has to offer. In the end, it leaves a very mechanical feeling and personal story does very little to relieve this. We need something that brings us together in an MMO, not stories that divide us. Give us missions in each map that we can group up for, somewhat like dungeons..this would be a step in the right direction.

- Running too far away from what made GW1 so special to most of the fanbase.

- A cash shop that makes the actual game seem like a backdrop. No hate on ArenaNet trying to make money, but when it interferes with the game (unlike GW1), it’s time to tone it down a little bit and get back to what’s important: THE GAME. Let’s see some artistic vision and integrity of purpose in the content design for this game rather than pushing out shallow monetization and shoving it down the players’ throats by way of the shadily-strung spider web that is the BLTC and economic systems (money sinks, TP, etc) in this game.

Again, this is just opinion, not fact, but opinion supported by many, many players in one way or another. My personal notion is that a restructure of encounters, addition of direct healer class, depth additions to the pve over-world content delivery, and overhauling the skill & trait systems as well as the need for importance of team synergy and roles would do nothing but benefit this game in the long run. The current iteration of the game is not bringing people in, getting them to pull out their wallets, and retaining those wallets. If that’s not evidenced by the in-game populations and overall vibe, i think some people should look into a new pair of glasses. There’s no joking when i say that this game is in need of some fundamental changes, whether it be the addition of a direct healer class, or not.

You clearly havent seen some bunker builds for non heavy armor classes.

If you try and pigeon hole classes you will destroy the game, because it will bring back the single most hurtful aspect of most MMO’s;

“Group looking for 1 “xxx” and 1 “xxxx” "

And you just have people who love their class unable to find groups and become disenchanted with the game, and you also have people that love their class nd can find groups but the group can never find the other class they need to go for a run.

GW2 beautifully gets rid of this bane of MMO’s

Jaxon.5392:

If you try and pigeon hole classes you will destroy the game, because it will bring back the single most hurtful aspect of most MMO’s;

“Group looking for 1 “xxx” and 1 “xxxx” "

And you just have people who love their class unable to find groups and become disenchanted with the game, and you also have people that love their class nd can find groups but the group can never find the other class they need to go for a run.

GW2 beautifully gets rid of this bane of MMO’s

I thought the bane of MMOs was the players?

Honestly, although there is a lot to be desired (especially with dev communication to prevent another “snowflake” incident), breaking the holy trinity is one of the things Guild Wars 2 did right.

We have to give credit where it is due, and ANET actually has some of the best classes I’ve seen in awhile. I honestly don’t have any complaints besides pistols needing a buff.

Snowy.9580:

Jaxon.5392:

If you try and pigeon hole classes you will destroy the game, because it will bring back the single most hurtful aspect of most MMO’s;

“Group looking for 1 “xxx” and 1 “xxxx” "

And you just have people who love their class unable to find groups and become disenchanted with the game, and you also have people that love their class nd can find groups but the group can never find the other class they need to go for a run.

GW2 beautifully gets rid of this bane of MMO’s

I thought the bane of MMOs was the players?

Yeah , those ones who just tailgate you in WvW and spam the bell

lothefallen.7081:

snipped for legnth

I would just like to counter some of those points you raised.

- Due to my schedule, I play at odd hours, to the point where even LA is largely deserted. Should I be barred from the majority of content because of when I can play/

-is there any reason not to group? are you disadvantaged in some way, shape or form? if not, then why not make a group if you enjoy that?

-there are roles available, you just have to go looking for them. for example, ele can be made into decent healers, or I have made my engi into a control engi, whose job it is is to keep the boss away from the squishies.

-I agree that dungeons could/should be reworked, but that the problem isn’t anything inherent to the combat model, but rather simple inexperience on areanet’s part

-the grind is optional, and you can do it at your own pace, to the point where it’s not a grind anymore.

-are you wiling to have your main excluded from dungeons because it is not the “best” class?

-how is the cash shop forced onto players? I’ve barely used it, and I’m perfectly happy when playing the game.

you seem to be making the classic forum mistake: assuming your veiws are the majority veiws. you can speak for yourself, and maybe your guild/friends. thats it.

To those of you that think there is no trinity in this game, run ALL the dungeons without an elementalist and without a guardian. See how far you get. Lets see that challenge vid. Laugh.

IceBlizzard.1054
we did….but you propably did not seen what comes after that.

There is only 1 spec in this game and that’s DPS.

Rukia.4802:

There is only 1 spec in this game and that’s DPS.

ALL classes benefit from condition damage (Guardians can use fire that never runs out while outliving you, warriors can out damage dps with cond, mesmers and engineers benefit greatly from it too). Elementalists are awesome at healing. Not everything comes down to DPS you know.

Mirta.5029:

Rukia.4802:

There is only 1 spec in this game and that’s DPS.

ALL classes benefit from condition damage (Guardians can use fire that never runs out while outliving you, warriors can out damage dps with cond, mesmers and engineers benefit greatly from it too). Elementalists are awesome at healing. Not everything comes down to DPS you know.

Yes it pretty much does. If the players are skilled enough, you can do away with almost all of the “healing” and “group support” BS and just go straight up max DPS. Support is only helpful for those who aren’t at that stage yet.

Yaki.9563:

Mirta.5029:

Rukia.4802:

There is only 1 spec in this game and that’s DPS.

ALL classes benefit from condition damage (Guardians can use fire that never runs out while outliving you, warriors can out damage dps with cond, mesmers and engineers benefit greatly from it too). Elementalists are awesome at healing. Not everything comes down to DPS you know.

Yes it pretty much does. If the players are skilled enough, you can do away with almost all of the “healing” and “group support” BS and just go straight up max DPS. Support is only helpful for those who aren’t at that stage yet.

Max DPS means a glass cannon build and oh how I love seeing people like that die.

Mirta.5029:

Yaki.9563:

Mirta.5029:

Rukia.4802:

There is only 1 spec in this game and that’s DPS.

ALL classes benefit from condition damage (Guardians can use fire that never runs out while outliving you, warriors can out damage dps with cond, mesmers and engineers benefit greatly from it too). Elementalists are awesome at healing. Not everything comes down to DPS you know.

Yes it pretty much does. If the players are skilled enough, you can do away with almost all of the “healing” and “group support” BS and just go straight up max DPS. Support is only helpful for those who aren’t at that stage yet.

Max DPS means a glass cannon build and oh how I love seeing people like that die.

Oh how I love some noob saying that skillful players choose a glass cannon build, oh dear that made me lol so much XD

I think Yaki should see how far glass cannon gets you when you have 2-3 people to fight and then watch that guardian, elemental or mesmer who went for survivability kick some serious kitten in a long haul fight.

hildegain.2106:

Mirta.5029:

Yaki.9563:

Mirta.5029:

Rukia.4802:

There is only 1 spec in this game and that’s DPS.

ALL classes benefit from condition damage (Guardians can use fire that never runs out while outliving you, warriors can out damage dps with cond, mesmers and engineers benefit greatly from it too). Elementalists are awesome at healing. Not everything comes down to DPS you know.

Yes it pretty much does. If the players are skilled enough, you can do away with almost all of the “healing” and “group support” BS and just go straight up max DPS. Support is only helpful for those who aren’t at that stage yet.

Max DPS means a glass cannon build and oh how I love seeing people like that die.

Oh how I love some noob saying that skillful players choose a glass cannon build, oh dear that made me lol so much XD

I think Yaki should see how far glass cannon gets you when you have 2-3 people to fight and then watch that guardian, elemental or mesmer who went for survivability kick some serious kitten in a long haul fight.

Actually it’s mostly boons that keeps them alive. Guardians are best at this, glass cannon is absolutely the best route to take when you are familiar with the game. More DPS simply means you kill mobs and bosses faster, healing is pointless because it scales terribly, and you can heal to full with a combo field from a water ele REGARDLESS of how she is specced with a thief using SB.

So tell me more about how your defensive builds are oh so good in this game lol really give me a break.

Glass cannon simply rules, l2dodge and you won’t fail. It’s a 1s immunity to all dmg and a boring mechanic. If dodge didn’t exist, then yes, defensive builds would be ideal in the group.

Rukia.4802:

hildegain.2106:

Mirta.5029:

Yaki.9563:

Mirta.5029:

Rukia.4802:

There is only 1 spec in this game and that’s DPS.

ALL classes benefit from condition damage (Guardians can use fire that never runs out while outliving you, warriors can out damage dps with cond, mesmers and engineers benefit greatly from it too). Elementalists are awesome at healing. Not everything comes down to DPS you know.

Yes it pretty much does. If the players are skilled enough, you can do away with almost all of the “healing” and “group support” BS and just go straight up max DPS. Support is only helpful for those who aren’t at that stage yet.

Max DPS means a glass cannon build and oh how I love seeing people like that die.

Oh how I love some noob saying that skillful players choose a glass cannon build, oh dear that made me lol so much XD

I think Yaki should see how far glass cannon gets you when you have 2-3 people to fight and then watch that guardian, elemental or mesmer who went for survivability kick some serious kitten in a long haul fight.

Actually it’s mostly boons that keeps them alive. Guardians are best at this, glass cannon is absolutely the best route to take when you are familiar with the game. More DPS simply means you kill mobs and bosses faster, healing is pointless because it scales terribly, and you can heal to full with a combo field from a water ele REGARDLESS of how she is specced with a thief using SB.

So tell me more about how your defensive builds are oh so good in this game lol really give me a break.

Glass cannon simply rules, l2dodge and you won’t fail. It’s a 1s immunity to all dmg and a boring mechanic. If dodge didn’t exist, then yes, defensive builds would be ideal in the group.

If someone is so good at dodge / positioning, never makes a mistake then it is fine to do full dps. But sorry dude, there is always unskilled, inexperienced, lag issue or unlucky players out there and i believe they are majority with player base. There it is where supportive play style roll in and shines. You don’t have to agree with me if you and your buddies are the 1% no mistake players.

There are countless of time where my mesmer successfully interrupt a boss insane attack which DO save allies. There are countless of time my warrior FEAR ME aways foes around downed allies and i revived him to prevent things go more nasty. There are countless of time my guardian give agies to low hp allies and saved them from a down. There are countless of time my ele heal my allies so we won’t get wiped.

No GW2 don’t support tank and healer by default but support role do existed and they are more than viable than full dps build. This is the beauty of GW2.

gkrit.9416:

For example… What if I wanted to tank as an elementalist? The low health pool coupled with the stats of light armor would not even compare to that of a warrior.
This suggests that the devs still want professions to play out in a particular way.
So in the end, you wouldn’t choose to tank but instead do what an elementalist does best… Cast spells and not the the focus of enemy attacks.

You can tank, but nowhere in this game is tanking as simplistic as WoW tanking became (I assume, based on where WoW tanking was headed last I played many years ago).

That said, are you trying to tank while leveling? Or are you trying to tank at level 80 with a specialized build?

^You don’t get my point dude, I am not saying support doesn’t exist, but that you can do ALL of that in a full on DPS spec. Everything you mentioned has nothing to do with being specced defensive lol.

lothefallen.7081:

- Absolutely kitten poor story-telling and purpose driven gameplay from questing. Hearts and events exemplify an astounding lack of depth to their purpose (questing). I’ve been engaged, more so, by large walls of text in more traditional MMOs (not WoW) outlining a quest objective and purpose than any of the PvE questing methods this game has to offer. In the end, it leaves a very mechanical feeling and personal story does very little to relieve this. We need something that brings us together in an MMO, not stories that divide us. Give us missions in each map that we can group up for, somewhat like dungeons..this would be a step in the right direction.

I don’t know why you would discount WoW in this regard; vanilla WoW had those walls of text, and while for the most part the story wasn’t thrust onto you, there was plenty of lore to entertain.

Granted, Blizzard took WoW in the totally opposite direction, so I guess I do know why you discount WoW; while it released with such potential in this regard, it was something that fell to the wayside when picked up by replacement developers.

Ansultares.1567:

Rukia.4802:

^You don’t get my point dude, I am not saying support doesn’t exist, but that you can do ALL of that in a full on DPS spec. Everything you mentioned has nothing to do with being specced defensive lol.

Why do you assume I responded to you, and not the person I quote?

You posted right before I did lol I didn’t wanna quote his wall of text

Rukia.4802:

You posted right before I did lol I didn’t wanna quote his wall of text

It’s not that bad of a wall, especially if you pare it back by trimming some of the sub-quotes.

Actually, I wouldn’t even call it a wall once you trim the sub-quotes. More like some shrubbery.

my ele can tank fine, large protection uptime, aoe blind on every third attack, lots of dodges and self sustain, and I only have 10 points in earth, it’d be even better with more in earth.

Without a controllable agro system, tanking doesn’t require you to hold mobs on you, just to keep them away from the group til their defensive cds come back up.

The ele can do gw2 tanking easily.

emikochan.8504:

my ele can tank fine, large protection uptime, aoe blind on every third attack, lots of dodges and self sustain, and I only have 10 points in earth, it’d be even better with more in earth.

Without a controllable agro system, tanking doesn’t require you to hold mobs on you, just to keep them away from the group til their defensive cds come back up.

The ele can do gw2 tanking easily.

. This is why there called. Bunkers in GW2 and not tanks. There something (or some one in this case) to take shalter behinde tell your ready to jump right back into the fight

Rukia.4802:

^You don’t get my point dude, I am not saying support doesn’t exist, but that you can do ALL of that in a full on DPS spec. Everything you mentioned has nothing to do with being specced defensive lol.

Dude you got to make it clear, for my definition, DPS is someone who is chasing the highest possible damage per sec. In GW2, it is quite costy to trade some dps to support.

Yes it is also costy with defensive build but it is less punishing on mistake with full defensive build, while staying alive is still contributing damage so what is the problem being a bit slower in dungeon but less risk taking? I prefer supportive and defensive teammates rather than dirt eating glass cannon. Well of course high skilled full dps player is also welcome.

Everyone here is correct!
The trinity no longer exists in groups.
The trinity lives on within each character of the group.
Each role of the trinity modified to be weaker than in the old trinity for balance
reasons, as they are now all in one class, x5.

I also agree with Eukia.
Trough its not only abaut player skill, but it does count.
Mobs basic attacks are minimal damage, even as full “glass canon”. The only thing that matters, is to know when to dodge, and its kind of sad that the combat is degraded to, know when to avoid dmg.

Besides, even if you miss a dodge, the team rushes and rezurrect you.
Yes there are cases when bunkers are good, but the game itself destroys his own system or logic in the 80% of the time.

By the way, cut the offtopic, and back to trinity. Its not a discussion abaut, dps or what “roles” are good.
Its a discussion abaut, are those roles at all?

Beeing tough to kill does not mean its your role in combat. You dont chose to be a tough character for the team, (since you cant draw agro, or soak dmg from others) you only take it for your own benefit.

Nor you take “support” for the team, since there are no real healer “builds”. Besically because heals are mostly accidentaly timed well. And heals rarely save anyone from death since mobs 2 hit you anyway and heals barely heal more then 1/10 of your hp at best. Regen is usefull in the long turn battle, but still wont be a most have.
Not to mention there are barely any heals to use, and the rare occasion when you use heal, you propably miss it, or use it late, or is useless anyway, since the guy cant dodge and will die anyway.
(excluding guardians megaop heals, but thats a balance flaw, not an intetional global thing)
So , no healing is not a role.
Nor is other support. Spamming boons usually happens by chance. You cant really time a Aegis or Protection to apply right before the instakiller blow.
Propably because you dont see your whole team, and when who gets hitted. Exspecialyl when you are running yourself, and dodging and spamming to live.

Combat is basically a fight to survive the mobs that 2 hit oyu, while you have to hit them for minutes.
Feels like playing a ranger or hunter no matter what class you play….you kite…and kite…and kite…and dodge…and kite. And healyourself and keep on kiting. (apply some kitten on yourself to save yourself (that dos apply some kitten on others to, but you use it when YOU need it anyway)
And if its not chasing you you BANG DPS.
You dont support-you dont tank….this is all you do. Admit it kittennig finally.

Thats what combat is without “trinity”. No trinity is not good, its to old to be good. But having this “Zeroity” is worse.
I thout Anet wanted to innovate the system, not degrade it.

Trinity more or less gives you set rules of what you must have in a group. You cant complete a dungeon in most trinity games with just dps specs.

Here are no set roles, you can complete a dungeon, no matter which one with a full dps group, its also much faster with a full dps group if people know their classes and the game mechanics. You dont tank in this game in the old fashioned way, everyone pulls their part to help the whole group survive, through debuffing the enemy or cleansing your groupmates. Putting up combo fields and whatnot helps a ton.

Any character can go down the more tanky route, if they want to take some more hits before dying. You just need to spec and gear in the right way.

This is why it brings out a smile on my face whenever people yell a for “tank (guardian/warrior)” in lfg. It’s just one of those groups I wouldnt want to join, because they dont grasp the concept of the game, they think its just another WoW. They would probably yell their lungs out if they die and blame the “tank” for not holding aggro.

Elementalist healingskills have quite a long cd, and really, ticking for 140 like 3 times wont save anyone.

Indeed, tho elementalist water skills seems to be the only skills outside of the healing slot that gain 1:1 from healing power. Or at least that is the case on scepter and staff, dagger seems to have a lower ratio for some odd reason.