Guild Wars 2

It seems that in the attempt of removing the “Holy Trinity” from the game, defining your character has become quite a problematic aspect of the game as there are quite a number of limitations one cannot overcome depending on which profession they choose.

We are told any character/profession can fulfill any role in the game. This is true to some extent… but if this was the case, why is it that some professions have a lower health pool compared to others?
This is one step in an attempt to restrict what a certain profession should do.

For example… What if I wanted to tank as an elementalist? The low health pool coupled with the stats of light armor would not even compare to that of a warrior.
This suggests that the devs still want professions to play out in a particular way.
So in the end, you wouldn’t choose to tank but instead do what an elementalist does best… Cast spells and not the the focus of enemy attacks.

There are also other factors you can bring into the equation such as skill functions and traits. However, the trait system has its own set of restrictions also making it difficult to define your character.

So, if you choose to have professions in an MMO, you can’t really avoid having a “Holy Trinity Model”.

Sssssh! You’ll have the fluffy fanboy bunnies leaping off the cliff o’ doom!

While some classes are definately better at some things than others, gw2 doesn’t force the trinity onto a party, and I think that’s what they meant. If you have a party, you don’t need one tank, one healer, and three damage classes. I’m sure there’s some composition of character roles that work best, but usually any 5 classes can make a dungeon work. And I think that’s what they meant when they said they wanted to get rid of the holy trinity.

What I get from your post is that each class should be able to spec into any role and do as well as any other class. This would be great, I know I’d love it. I’d love to pick any class on style alone and make it fit into whatever role I wanted. And they sort of can as it is, but some classes are straight up better than others, as you outlined with warrior’s having more hp, etc.

What gw2 tries to do, and might with some balancing, might be able to accomplish, is for every class to fill all roles differently. While ele’s have a crappy health pool, I’d put money that mine could live longer than most warriors. Some aspects of some classes will be buffed, like spirits for rangers.

I’d love for anet to be able to make it so all classes can fulfill any role. The ideas are already there, now the numbers need to be adjusted accordingly.

One simply does not talk about the “trinity” here. Talking of such things is not tolerated.
They’ll be coming for you!

The lower HP and light armor of elementalist is compensated by cantrips, boons gained etc.

So most elementalist can tank as well as heavy armors classes do.

Have 5 people stand in a single file line holding hands and a nice warm blanket in one hand. Have them now form a small circle. Now the person the the left will drape a warm blanket over the next persons shoulders. There! There! Do not cover the persons head or they wont be able to see silly! Ensuring veryone is now covered and no one person has more warm blanket than another person………everyone holding hands, supporting each other, covered by a warm blanket.

Isnt Anets vision of combat beatuiful? Happy heavy sigh.

So, if you choose to have professions in an MMO, you can’t really avoid having a “Holy Trinity Model”.

Well I hate to burst your bubble but they have an MMO without a holy trinity model and although you disagree with it, it’s working fine for many people and has been since launch.

I’m not “fan boying” the thread, just pointing out a simple fact that you seem to disagree with, which is fine, but your opinions are not facts.

There are MMOs, past and present, without the holy trinity— including this one. Instead, all classes must be hybrids to some degree or other, which is what this game’s classes are.

You can spec more into healing, dps, support control, etc, but you can never really be one or the other completely.

I’m been wanting to know the meaning of the armour categories, too. I wonder how they balance class skills when their defense scores categorically cluster based on classes?
Do the Scholars have a clear benefit to compensate? I don’t think being stereotypically ranged classes applies to the GW2 profession schemes (e.g., I believe Mesmers are more frontline fighters than engineers, and engineers to me are as scholarly as Necro and Ele background-wise, if not, more so).
Is Medium Armour the standardised value of 0, or do they work from a ceiling/floor value and adjust the skills accordingly?

I’m not saying that I am not happy with the game nor am I trying to point out flaws as such.

I think that some professions are kind of caught in a “limbo” and need to have their roles defined a bit better for the sake of their gameplay. It’s past the point of sticking to the “No Holy Trinity model”.

gkrit.9416:

For example… What if I wanted to tank as an elementalist? The low health pool coupled with the stats of light armor would not even compare to that of a warrior.
This suggests that the devs still want professions to play out in a particular way.

Simply put, I believe bolded just isn’t true. Amor and health are from a lore + balance perspective. Not a role perspective. This is quite obvious really, considering Anet actively promoted the “no trinity!”-part. And as said, quite frankly ele’s can “tank”.
Now when Anet has no role perspective yet players perceive the roles to be there, how come?
Option 1: the roles are just factually there. Guardians are tanking, mesmers are dps’ing, or whatever roles you can come up with. Is this the case? No…..
Option 2: Indoctrination of the players. Looks like this is the case to me.

tl;dr trinity is only there if you believe it is.

I play a ranger. I can spec heavy into healing and with the addition of the gear, specific traits and picking the correct secondary skills along wiht my Elite Tree I can support / heal like a champ.
I can also spend 3 silver and 83 copper to go change my traits for heavy DPS, long range and by swapping gear or runes have a very classic feeling range glass cannon.
Once again by swapping around traits, gear and or runes and along with a quick weapon swap i can be much more tanky and hang in with the other melee and do just fine again.

I can do all of these things on my Necro as well as my Warrior.

All of the classes have the ability to play tanky, support / healing , or heavy DPS being it range or melee.

That is the point they are making with the trinity being much “less” in this game.

The game this fine imo. If players do not see or cannot understand how it is laid out I feel it is more of a player issue than the game. I know it may be hard for some to believe that a cloth wearing range that summons undead minions and loads of dots can throw on some daggers and switch some traits to melee with the best of them but they can.

Yes, some classes are leaning more towards one way than the others but none of them are locked into a specific role by the game itself. Only the players seem to do that because of past experience from other MMOss and RPGs.

Doctor Orderly MD PhD DDS.7625:

gkrit.9416:

For example… What if I wanted to tank as an elementalist? The low health pool coupled with the stats of light armor would not even compare to that of a warrior.
This suggests that the devs still want professions to play out in a particular way.

Simply put, I believe bolded just isn’t true. Amor and health are from a lore + balance perspective. Not a role perspective. This is quite obvious really, considering Anet actively promoted the “no trinity!”-part. And as said, quite frankly ele’s can “tank”.
Now when Anet has no role perspective yet players perceive the roles to be there, how come?
Option 1: the roles are just factually there. Guardians are tanking, mesmers are dps’ing, or whatever roles you can come up with. Is this the case? No…..
Option 2: Indoctrination of the players. Looks like this is the case to me.

tl;dr trinity is only there if you believe it is.

I think what OP means is that while all classes do all three roles, still some classes can do it better. A warrior has a easier time tanking mobs then a elementalist, just like how a guardian is a better support class then a thief.

According to the NO trinity system, this should mean that my support thief is just as good as a guardian (aside from player-skill that is). Yet if you see the stats, armor and skills, its pretty obvious that Guardian was intended as a Tankish/Healer class while the Thief has more dps focused skills. I think this is what OP was trying to point out.

what i want to know is

why do warriors have 19.5k hp naked at lvl 80

but

thief and ele have 10.8k hp naked at 80,

could you perhaps for PVE ONLY SIDE OF THINGS give all classes same base hp of say the warrior so that glass cannon thief and ele dont die when a boss farts in our direction. you can say dodge and move as much as you like.
we can only dodge so much and conditions / agony is a factor that was not taken into account for thief / ele base hp pools and for other lower hp pools.

so in short for PVE only and not SPVP or TPVP give every one same base hp so its atleast fair. because if a warriror in full beserker gear can have 19.5k hp why cant a thief or ele ?

and dont even mention WvWvW thats mostly large zergs vs zergs, if u end up being alone far away from other ppl and end up in 1v1 thats your fault no 1 elses so dont come crying to forums because u died in 1v1.

atleast having equal base health pools would make every 1 same playing field for pve and WvWvW (in terms of zerg fights ignore 1v1 in WvWvW its not made for 1v1 there)

Kirshe.6872:

Doctor Orderly MD PhD DDS.7625:

gkrit.9416:

For example… What if I wanted to tank as an elementalist? The low health pool coupled with the stats of light armor would not even compare to that of a warrior.
This suggests that the devs still want professions to play out in a particular way.

Simply put, I believe bolded just isn’t true. Amor and health are from a lore + balance perspective. Not a role perspective. This is quite obvious really, considering Anet actively promoted the “no trinity!”-part. And as said, quite frankly ele’s can “tank”.
Now when Anet has no role perspective yet players perceive the roles to be there, how come?
Option 1: the roles are just factually there. Guardians are tanking, mesmers are dps’ing, or whatever roles you can come up with. Is this the case? No…..
Option 2: Indoctrination of the players. Looks like this is the case to me.

tl;dr trinity is only there if you believe it is.

I think what OP means is that while all classes do all three roles, still some classes can do it better. A warrior has a easier time tanking mobs then a elementalist, just like how a guardian is a better support class then a thief.

According to the NO trinity system, this should mean that my support thief is just as good as a guardian (aside from player-skill that is). Yet if you see the stats, armor and skills, its pretty obvious that Guardian was intended as a Tankish/Healer class while the Thief has more dps focused skills. I think this is what OP was trying to point out.

They do that to give the classes some type of different flavor. I am sure they could have normalized all of the classes but then you simply would have a different skin to pick at the character creator. And that would be pretty boring in my opinion.

I do not think it has anything to do with them trying to promote certain classes into specific roles. Again, that is done more so by the players because it is how we think from other games.

I do not feel I tank any less on my ranger than on my warrior as long as I am using the right traits, gear stats and skills. Just with a different flavor. I can spec heavy vit/toughness and use the right skills to mitigate damage pretty well as well as using my dogde for the big hitting skills just like my warrior would.

Guardians can feel a lot more squishy as well if you spec for more DPS. Mayby not to the extent of others classes but again that is for the flavor and feel of different classes being different.

The trinity isn’t there, no matter what you believe.

All they really did was remove the option to even play Trinity roles and not give us anythign else to use in it’s place. Instead they simply implemented a single role and we all fulfill only that one role. DPS.
Don’t get me wrong, all classes have some utilites, but they are used on top of your dps. Hence why they are usually also damage abilities with the utility tacked on top.

There is no way to tank in this game. I don’t care how you build or what class you are or even if you think you are a tank for your team. Bunker builds can take some damage, but even the AI will ignore them most of the time. Without aggro management tools there will never be a tank in this game.

The healing is abysmal in this game. Again I don’t care how you build you will never be a healer (as defined by Trinity style games) that can keep your team going through hell and back. You can spec to HELP your team, but if they are built full on DPS you aren’t saving them<period>

Also Overspeccing a character in either defense or support will actually be a detriment to your teams survival, YOU HAVE TO BUILD HYBRID for any of the group content. To me it’s a bad design, and I’m no fan of the trinity. But 1 option(hybrid) is certainly not better than than 4(trinity +hybrid) in other games.

So is the answer that there isn’t an implicit class/role pairing, but instead the Scholars are designed to have explicit ways of circumventing damage while still dealing it?
That:
A) Warriors and Guardians have passive damage resistance through their armour and active damage dealing and support through their skills.
B) Necros evade damage through death shroud and continue dealing it; Mesmers evade damage by making illusions take it, and deal damage with them; Elementalists evade damage with armor spells, blinks/dashes/teleports, and weapon heal skills, while dealing aura and condition damage at the same time?

So the Soldiers have passive armour and active dps/support, but the scholars (and Adventurers?) have active evasion skills that generally dps simultaneously? This might mean Soldiers have less damage on average, but the damage that the other classes can take depends on player skill most of all.

kendokken.3257:

The trinity isn’t there, no matter what you believe.

All they really did was remove the option to even play Trinity roles and not give us anythign else to use in it’s place. Instead they simply implemented a single role and we all fulfill only that one role. DPS.
Don’t get me wrong, all classes have some utilites, but they are used on top of your dps. Hence why they are usually also damage abilities with the utility tacked on top.

There is no way to tank in this game. I don’t care how you build or what class you are or even if you think you are a tank for your team. Bunker builds can take some damage, but even the AI will ignore them most of the time. Without aggro management tools there will never be a tank in this game.

The healing is abysmal in this game. Again I don’t care how you build you will never be a healer (as defined by Trinity style games) that can keep your team going through hell and back. You can spec to HELP your team, but if they are built full on DPS you aren’t saving them<period>

Also Overspeccing a character in either defense or support will actually be a detriment to your teams survival, YOU HAVE TO BUILD HYBRID for any of the group content. To me it’s a bad design, and I’m no fan of the trinity. But 1 option(hybrid) is certainly not better than than 4(trinity +hybrid) in other games.

I do not disagree with what you are saying as it is pretty spot on but you have to admit that you can push the different classes into different feeling roles. That seems to be the point. Yes we are all nothing but DPS with some sort of hybrid traits tacked on but by pushing those traits into a certain direction it gives the feel of the classes that needed difference.

My range anything feels and plays much different than my melee anything.
Same with pushing more healing into my build over extra DPS. It gives a different feel to the class I am playing in enough of a way to make it fun for me at least.

Edit to add that I do not agree that speccing into a more hybrid build over DPS hurts the group. If you have others that are more focused on DPS you will need someone to off set that to make the activity you are trying to complete go a little smoother. I think that can be the difference in doing a dungeon run and killing the boss with rez spamming over killing the boss with tactics and not dying over and over agian.

I swear these forums get painful to read at times. SO many dead horses getting beat.

When it comes to game design you can have classes or not have classes. If you have classes they can mean something or they can be useless labels.

In the ‘classic’ sense, if you could wield a melee weapon you could NOT use spells or ranged weapons. If you were a spellbinder you could not use any weapon. Ranged players could not melee or cast spells.

TES games (IE: Skyrim) went the other direction with their game(s), “classes” were merely useless labels. Each ‘class’ defined a slight bonus in an ability at the start of the game. Every player could eventually do pretty much everything.

Then we have GW2.

While everyone can do some of everything, some classes are naturally better at some stuff than others.

For example: Do we really expect Warriors to be adept at casting spells? I think not.
Do we really expect a thief to go toe-to-toe in melee combat against a Warrior? Again I think not. Should someone who is able to cast spells sport heavy armor? Again no.

I think Anet did a fine job of mixing things up. While you are not ‘stuck’ in the classic sense we also don’t have some otherwise useless class label.

Here’s another example…

Warrior vs. Elementalist
Both use DPS builds.
Who will win? (take out player skill factor)
Answer… Warrior.
Reason… Double Health pool.

Now, post battle, that would be enough reason to force someone (playing as an elementalist) into playing a role where you sit in the backline rather than the frontline only because at this point in time it is what an elementalist does best as they cannot afford to be taking the focus of enemy fire.

Every class has the option of upping their stats (precision, power, vit etc) to help them build toward a certain playstyle. If someone wants to tank… they will invest in vit/tough (this would automatically make them more superior in this regard) and if someone wants to dps… they will invest in prec/power (this would automatically make them more effective at dealing damage as opposed to a tank build).

So the questions still stand:

What is the reason behind having a lower health pool for some classes?
Is it because they are ranged? If so, then why can elementalists use daggers for close quarter combat?
Or is it just because the devs have decided one profession should be able to take more damage than another (without the need to spec in it specifically) to encourage a more rambo/tank playstyle?

gkrit.9416:

For example… What if I wanted to tank as an elementalist? The low health pool coupled with the stats of light armor would not even compare to that of a warrior.
This suggests that the devs still want professions to play out in a particular way.
So in the end, you wouldn’t choose to tank but instead do what an elementalist does best… Cast spells and not the the focus of enemy attacks.

Ironically the elementalist is one of the strongest tanks in the game, second only to guardian really.

So you kind of made the opposite point from what you wanted to make.

gkrit.9416:

Here’s another example…

Warrior vs. Elementalist
Both use DPS builds.
Who will win? (take out player skill factor)
Answer… Warrior.
Reason… Double Health pool.

Now, post battle, that would be enough reason to force someone (playing as an elementalist) into playing a role where you sit in the backline rather than the frontline only because at this point in time it is what an elementalist does best as they cannot afford to be taking the focus of enemy fire.

Every class has the option of upping their stats (precision, power, vit etc) to help them build toward a certain playstyle. If someone wants to tank… they will invest in vit/tough (this would automatically make them more superior in this regard) and if someone wants to dps… they will invest in prec/power (this would automatically make them more effective at dealing damage as opposed to a tank build).

So the questions still stand:

What is the reason behind having a lower health pool for some classes?
Is it because they are ranged? If so, then why can elementalists use daggers for close quarter combat?
Or is it just because the devs have decided one profession should be able to take more damage than another (without the need to spec in it specifically) to encourage a more rambo/tank playstyle?

You don’t really understand the metagame at all.

Elementalists have lower health pools because they have multiple ways of regaining their health, via water abilities/combos and regen (similar to guardians), as well as multiple immunities. Other classes with low health pool like thieves have evades and stealth.

Warrior has high health pool because he has no access to regen, and few evades, no stealth, etc.

It all makes perfect sense, and it is remarkably balanced.

And yes, warriors can be totally fragile glass cannons and elementalists can be amazingly durable tanks.

You just don’t understand how the game works and are still stuck in old ways thinking that heavy armor = tank.

No one is out there standing in front of bosses eating the hits through heavy armor while being spam healed by some clothie in the back. That is the old way. We’re not in Pac-Man days any more.

Following up on what MaRko is saying above me, I think that the OP is overlooking an important factor. The classes are the way that they are not because they are based on the trinity, but because they are based upon classic RPG archetypes that have been around for decades.

Spellcasters, for example, have always been portrayed as weak individuals who have forgone training in the heavy armors so that they could focus on casting effectively. Heavy armor inhibits their ability to shape magic, so they don’t bother with it. Years of studying books make them weaker than the warrior types.

There’s also the middle ground, where rangers and thieves roam. They also ditch the heavy armor so that they are fast on their feet and can utilize stealth (heavy armor makes you way less stealthy). They are more hardy than the spellcasters.

Warrior types are bred for action. They train in the use of heavy armors and shields and keep their bodies in top physical condition, giving them more overall health. They hit hard and they die hard.

Now, I’m sure you know all this already. But, the point I’m trying to make is that these archetypes existed long before the Holy Trinity. But, they are not the Holy Trinity because in those old games, you did not need to have a certain party makeup to be successful.

I’m running two different tabletop campaigns at the moment that defy the Holy Trinity and the parties are successful.

In one, I have three spellcasters (a cleric, a druid and a mage). They have no “tanks” to protect them or any heavy armor, and yet, they do quite well despite only being 3rd level. In another, I have two thieves, who have no healing support, spellcasting, or tanking abilities. They also do quite well.

Guild Wars 2 is the same way. It does not have, nor does it require the Holy Trinity, but it preserves the archetypes in order to have the classic RPG feel that we are all familiar with. Success with these archetypes is up to you, but it should not require you to have a certain party makeup just to clear an area out.

ProphetSword.5427:

Following up on what MaRko is saying above me, I think that the OP is overlooking an important factor. The classes are the way that they are not because they are based on the trinity, but because they are based upon classic RPG archetypes that have been around for decades.

Spellcasters, for example, have always been portrayed as weak individuals who have forgone training in the heavy armors so that they could focus on casting effectively. Heavy armor inhibits their ability to shape magic, so they don’t bother with it. Years of studying books make them weaker than the warrior types.

There’s also the middle ground, where rangers and thieves roam. They also ditch the heavy armor so that they are fast on their feet and can utilize stealth (heavy armor makes you way less stealthy). They are more hardy than the spellcasters.

Warrior types are bred for action. They train in the use of heavy armors and shields and keep their bodies in top physical condition, giving them more overall health. They hit hard and they die hard.

Now, I’m sure you know all this already. But, the point I’m trying to make is that these archetypes existed long before the Holy Trinity. But, they are not the Holy Trinity because in those old games, you did not need to have a certain party makeup to be successful.

I’m running two different tabletop campaigns at the moment that defy the Holy Trinity and the parties are successful.

In one, I have three spellcasters (a cleric, a druid and a mage). They have no “tanks” to protect them or any heavy armor, and yet, they do quite well despite only being 3rd level. In another, I have two thieves, who have no healing support, spellcasting, or tanking abilities. They also do quite well.

Guild Wars 2 is the same way. It does not have, nor does it require the Holy Trinity, but it preserves the archetypes in order to have the classic RPG feel that we are all familiar with. Success with these archetypes is up to you, but it should not require you to have a certain party makeup just to clear an area out.

Good post, different way of thinking about it, kudos for making perfect sense.

krixis.9538:

what i want to know is

why do warriors have 19.5k hp naked at lvl 80

but

thief and ele have 10.8k hp naked at 80

Comparing 2 classes and using only HP as a measuring stick is really worthless.

Warriors have more health because their class design is to stand there and take hits. Their defense is high armor, high hp.

Thieves evade & kite & stealth. Their combat design is to not get hit. They shouldn’t need massive health pools. If they did and had stealth too and their evades, people would be crying.

Eles I’m not as familiar with, but I do know that they have a ton of slows, a whole attunement based around healing & slow (water), and one for defense (earth) that they can swap in & out of quite frequently.

Guardians are in the same boat. They have low hp, but their combat design is based around constant boons and regen and blocks. If they had the same hp as warriors they’d be even more unkillable than they can be now.

Profession roles are not dictated by your health pool or your armor class. They’re simply stats that vary between professions to create…variety. Stop screaming for all classes to be the same.

Gbok.1039:

Edit to add that I do not agree that speccing into a more hybrid build over DPS hurts the group. If you have others that are more focused on DPS you will need someone to off set that to make the activity you are trying to complete go a little smoother. I think that can be the difference in doing a dungeon run and killing the boss with rez spamming over killing the boss with tactics and not dying over and over agian.

True, but there is a point in both directions that will make you a detriment to your team. Either by doing so little DPS the boss takes forever to kill or destroys the party outright, or by having so little survivabilty that you are downed often making people spend less time doing DPS and more time keeping you alive. The longer the fights take the more chance one of their kitten 1 shot abilities will land on at least one member, due to either running out of dodges or a miss timed evade by someone.

My point was that ALL players need to balance this. A single character over speccing in heal/support to make up for glass cannon builds, will NOT keep them alive in group content. IS there a pretty wide range in the middle? sure. But all players MUST be in the middle in one way or another.

gkrit.9416:

It seems that in the attempt of removing the “Holy Trinity” from the game, defining your character has become quite a problematic aspect of the game as there are quite a number of limitations one cannot overcome depending on which profession they choose.

We are told any character/profession can fulfill any role in the game. This is true to some extent… but if this was the case, why is it that some professions have a lower health pool compared to others?
This is one step in an attempt to restrict what a certain profession should do.

For example… What if I wanted to tank as an elementalist? The low health pool coupled with the stats of light armor would not even compare to that of a warrior.
This suggests that the devs still want professions to play out in a particular way.
So in the end, you wouldn’t choose to tank but instead do what an elementalist does best… Cast spells and not the the focus of enemy attacks.

There are also other factors you can bring into the equation such as skill functions and traits. However, the trait system has its own set of restrictions also making it difficult to define your character.

So, if you choose to have professions in an MMO, you can’t really avoid having a “Holy Trinity Model”.

I am against the trinity as a concept (it’s an old, stale and outdated mechanic with too many flaws), but you are right to some extent.

Will anyone do a fractals run at 30+ without one or two guardians? Thought so.

Fuz.5621:

gkrit.9416:

It seems that in the attempt of removing the “Holy Trinity” from the game, defining your character has become quite a problematic aspect of the game as there are quite a number of limitations one cannot overcome depending on which profession they choose.

We are told any character/profession can fulfill any role in the game. This is true to some extent… but if this was the case, why is it that some professions have a lower health pool compared to others?
This is one step in an attempt to restrict what a certain profession should do.

For example… What if I wanted to tank as an elementalist? The low health pool coupled with the stats of light armor would not even compare to that of a warrior.
This suggests that the devs still want professions to play out in a particular way.
So in the end, you wouldn’t choose to tank but instead do what an elementalist does best… Cast spells and not the the focus of enemy attacks.

There are also other factors you can bring into the equation such as skill functions and traits. However, the trait system has its own set of restrictions also making it difficult to define your character.

So, if you choose to have professions in an MMO, you can’t really avoid having a “Holy Trinity Model”.

I am against the trinity as a concept (it’s an old, stale and outdated mechanic with too many flaws), but you are right to some extent.

Will anyone do a fractals run at 30+ without one or two guardians? Thought so.

Sure. A good elementalist can do more than a guardian in fractal 30+

Guardians are great in high fractals but not at all necessary.

I actually understand those who oppose my post. Everyone here has a valid opinion regarding this topic.

I just think there have been too many lines that have been blurred. I too was all for the “no trinity” model… sounds nice when you hear about it but i think its a slightly “confused” model.

gkrit.9416:

I actually understand those who oppose my post. Everyone here has a valid opinion regarding this topic.

I just think there have been too many lines that have been blurred. I too was all for the “no trinity” model… sounds nice when you hear about it but i think its a slightly “confused” model.

Just read up on regen, protection, and how the classes work.

You’re confused because you’re just lacking knowledge of the meta, like people who show up in old games and don’t know what “aggro” means.

What? No class can “tank”… that’s what they mean by not having a trinity. No class can “heal”, etc. No one ever said all classes would be equal. A warrior might be more durable, but they cannot be a classic “tank”.

I am actualyl happy there are getting more and more topics on this theme.
First of all i agree on that
“We are told any character/profession can fulfill any role in the game. This is true to some extent”
But my opinion is, they not only removed trinity, by adding all classes all options…they actually taken all options from all classes.
Yes to some extent you can specialize, in some combat roles, but they are extremely narroved in.

Besides.
I think the game can support any roles. Tank and healer would be welcome.
And the “wait time” and lfg would not be a problem….i still wait hours for some isntances.
So the positive points of not been stuffed into “roles” is getting wasted.
And we only feel the negative side of this system.
Also last but not least :
The problem with the old system was, that the roles existed, but that it FORCED players to a certaint roles.
In gw1, this was not a problem, you basically could pick up any role, but could set an npc to healbot if there was a need for it.

So i doo think the system is terribly flawed and gives really bad gameplay, and game feel.

People need to get away from “HP/Armor makes a Tank”. The reason Elementalists/Guardians have lower HPs is because they have some of the best ways to recover it. Thieves have lower HP/Armor because they are (with a build designed around surviving), taking less hits.

Forced Trinity does not exist, you can build your character to fill the role you want to play, there is no role you need to play.

Look into gw2lfg.com and you will wait less often for a group. Great site.

I don’t agree that they took all the options from the classes. If you browse the class forums a lot, you’ll see people post many different builds for each class. I’ve seen a warrior shout/support build for crying out loud (pun intended). I played an engineer for a couple of months, doing nothing but trying all the different builds, and let me tell you, the variety in one class alone is sensational.

So I disagree that they have “taken all options from all classes”. From what I have experienced and read, all classes have all options. Now when you’re building a team for a high level fractal dungeon, yeah you gotta use your brain. This is a game after all. At some point we’re supposed to be challenged and come up with a nice group makeup. What gw2 has done is instead of insisting on a certain class being included, you may be forced to include players using certain builds or gear, whatever works to create a good team to beat the dungeon.

When I do a level 3 fractal with my guildies, I can bring whatever class I want and wear whatever gear I want. When my guildies are preparing to do a level 20’s or 30’s Fractal, they “gear up” looking for toughness vitality gear, and get a bit pickier on what pug members they invite to fill out the group.

Some of us enjoy thinking about how to beat the game, and will put together a party to do exactly that. Now it’s not about your class, it’s about how you play your class. Thanks anet.

“Forced Trinity does not exist, you can build your character to fill the role you want to play, there is no role you need to play.”

Whitch is sad…there are always roles in combat. In life or exspecialyl should be in games.
IT IS what makes your character differeant then the other 10000 other class, or character out there.
IT defines how and what your character thinks, abaut combat, abaut the world ,ad interacting with it.
IT is another tool to costumize your character, and noone says you would be forced to a role.
THAT IS exacly what you say and imagine when you say “trinity” that the game forces you to be xy role. When in fact you are the one who picks the role. BEsides, a good design would not force you to a role, but would still allow you to pick any. And would end in a really fun class-combat system…unlike this.

This feels more like a degradation, isntead of improvement.
Besides, there ARE roles currently, and many of them are terrible, and boring. And the whoel combat system is centered araund dodging.
Whits is more boring then a trinity.

The issue isn’t a lack of trinity as such but on a larger view the lack of being able to define your character and what you can do with it. A trinity of roles is something a lot of people are familiar with and so when you take it away it will be missed.

For some this is a good thing for others it’s really a miss. In either case it’s possible though that people look for something else to define their character. And this is where the real problem starts for me, there isn’t really anything that you can do instead to define yourself. Skill bars are too rigid and the trait system is virtually meaningless.

So all in all it’s great they wanted to get rid of LF2M need tank/healer but on the other hand a fair amount of people feel this game doesn’t offer much meaning or definition for their toons, so even though there are different classes, it doesn’t give you much to play with in my view.

The moment that Anet make it so that choices in traits actually make a noticeable difference and skill bars become interesting again to create builds as in GW1 for example, I think more people would enjoy defining their character.

Right now you can do pretty much anything in this game (except sPvP perhaps) by choosing random skills and adding points in the trait system randomly, without even looking. Sure, it may be less efficient to some point, but it means a dungeon is done in 40 mins instead of 30 mins but it can be done easily just the same. This is possible because the content doesn’t require much of the player and when it does, it has more to do with dodging and ressing than skills or traits. So even if you make a lot of bad choices you can still manage ok.

That may be nice from one point of view but I don’t think it’s enough for a number of other players that could’ve been retained. Oh well, Anet makes their choices just as we do

gkrit.9416:

For example…_ What if I wanted to tank as an elementalist? The low health pool coupled with the stats of light armor would not even compare to that of a warrior.

Go earth, you now have more shields than a warrior does.
Every single class has different toughness, regen ability number, health pool and is pretty nicely balanced. There are tank builds for every class online, pretty good ones too, try them out, you’ll see

Yeah, there’s no LF tank\healer stuff in GW2.

Instead we have LF for guardian\warrior. All high-end dungeons are kinda demanding for heavy classes. And you still need to have some tanks, supporters and DPS to clear those dungeons and make speedruns (and I mean speedruns, not the regular PUG crawling) of ac\cof.

So there is a contradictin all right. Anet haven’t succeded in making all professions equal in PvE. Some can be universal tank\healer\dps guardians, others can only go for glass-canon DPS and still be outshined by warrior.

Isslair.4908:

Yeah, there’s no LF tank\healer stuff in GW2.

Instead we have LF for guardian\warrior. All high-end dungeons are kinda demanding for heavy classes. And you still need to have some tanks, supporters and DPS to clear those dungeons and make sppedruns (and I mean speedruns, not the regular PUG crawling) of ac\cof.

So there is a contradictin all right. Anet haven’t succeded in making all professions equal in PvE. Some can be universal tank\healer\dps guardians, others can only go for glass-canon DPS and still be outshined by warrior.

nobody forces you into a glass cannon build, but yes, if you go for one, you’ll die in seconds. That’s why if you want to tank you don’t go for a glass cannon build -_-

Mirta.5029:

nobody forces you into a glass cannon build

If you don’t care about efficiency, then yeah. You can randomly choose your traits and clear ac for several hours. But that’s not the point of this thread.

I think a trinity/no-trinity system works depending on context and scale of endgame pursuits. GW2 and many of the no-trinity games are mostly small group or solo pursuits, which make a trinity-type system sort of unnecessary. The combat and dodging and flexibility in what you can do is fine; I think some folks will disagree with me on this and cite AC and some of the other dungeons, but there are gems of good encounters and the Fractal encounters were definitely a step in the right direction in terms of encounter design. However, once you start getting into things of larger scale it becomes a total mess. Maybe that’s the combat system and/or the encounter design, i’m not sure other than I certain feel the loss of a challenge.

WoW and many that employ the trinity system fixate on larger group pursuits. In raids and the fixed battlegrounds (at least pre-WotLK), the specializations and diversity among the different flavors of tanks/healers/dps’ers and what they respectively bring to the table become much more apparent and even necessary to scrutinize over. At smaller scales, though, the combat complexity is usually much lesser and the forced trinity becomes more an annoyance…. Except maybe Arena, which even then usually has some “ideal” group combos based more on a GW2-type system than a trinity system (with heals/debuffing mainly playing the equivalent GW2 role of support).

Isslair.4908:

Mirta.5029:

nobody forces you into a glass cannon build

If you don’t care about efficiency, then yeah. You can randomly choose your traits and clear ac for several hours. But that’s not the point of this thread.

I was not talking about “randomly” selecting your traits. The thing is even the most squishy classes have tank builds, glass cannon means that you want fast DPS and guess what? It makes you die easily. You can instead go for less DPS, but enough survivability to outlive anything.

I can tank as well as a heavy armor class with my elementalist. If you look at the stat difference between heavy armor and light armor then you will see a minimal difference. The only major difference are the abilities/skills that each class has at its disposal.

The more i look at the game mechanics, the more it looks like started out as a classic MMO and then got converted into a more action focused form centered around small group or solo encounters.

By this i mean that the CC is more about interrupting the actions of you foe (kinda like breaking the combo of a opponent in a fighting game) than it is about making sure you only face one opponent at a time.

But at the same time much of the game carries the classic vocabulary of stun, daze, immobilize and so on. But the effects are so short that they are clearly more relabeled interrupt than effects in their own right (1 second effects? how you you exploit those in a one vs group scenario? especially when they come with a 20+ second cooldown?).

And also, while the professions can be built tank-ish, the tools for doing so mostly show up around the grandmaster trait tier. Meaning that for most of the game you end up playing some variation of DPS.

The separate tiers work when you start out as level 80 (sPVP). But when you need to work your way up, the impression your left with is that the game promised but did not deliver.

gkrit.9416:

This suggests that the devs still want professions to play out in a particular way.
So in the end, you wouldn’t choose to tank but instead do what an elementalist does best… Cast spells and not the the focus of enemy attacks.

Forget the trinity, the trinity is pure crap. Why would anyone want their preferred profession to be boxed into a specific playstyle, just to fir into a model.

Why not make each profession unique and have them all add something specific to the party. If you have a guardian, he should be the guardian in the party, not the tank, and if you have an engineer, he should be the engineer, not the healer. The trinity limits your class, have each profession bring a special mechanic that adds to the party.

I would rather have ANet define each profession, flesh them out more so they can each have something unique to accomplish in a party dynamic, rather than having them box GW2 into an old playstyle, just because it seems there are no other options.

The trinity is not about being “tank” or “healer”. t’s about having specifig roles in party that you need to succesfully play the game.

As of now you need some heavy survaviability classes to complete high-end PvE content. You need some supportive healing and boon generation. You also need a lot of DPS, because most champions and bosses have ridiculous amount of hp. And some professions fit naturally into this meta. While others are kinda out of place and feel almost useless.

What is funny is that both the heavy classes basically drip healing and boons under certain builds. A shout healing warrior or a altruistic healing guardian both end up as tank-ish healers. Have 2+ warrior stand close enough that they can affect each other and things get “interesting”…

Went back and looked at the elementalist btw, and i the more i look into things the more i feel that the balance focus of the game has been l80 and l80 only. I wonder if ANet broke something when they locked certain traits to certain tiers in terms of PVE experience.

Consider that up around grandmaster a elementalist can trait to heal on dodge with a 10 second cooldown. But the very same weapon skill is on a 40 second cooldown. That is some serious HPS difference. But to get it you have to stomp thru 60 levels of PVE with the lower HPS.

But if you pop into sPVP you can dump 30 points into the trait line from the word go and not notice the squishiness that is a low level elementalist.

gkrit.9416:

For example… What if I wanted to tank as an elementalist? The low health pool coupled with the stats of light armor would not even compare to that of a warrior.
This suggests that the devs still want professions to play out in a particular way.
So in the end, you wouldn’t choose to tank but instead do what an elementalist does best… Cast spells and not the the focus of enemy attacks.

I’m still bouncing the idea around in my head, but it would be great to have a resource on the Wiki or elsewhere which lists out the types of builds that are possible to execute successfully for each profession, and what mechanics you use to get there.

Something like (These aren’t real):

Warrior
High Ranged DPS Build
DPS Mechanic: Consistent Critical Hits with Rifle + Quick Adrenaline build to Kill Shot
Survivability Mechanic: Dodge, weapon skill interupts, kiting, heal skill
Party Boon Mechanic: None
Party Heal Mechainic: None

High Melee DPS Build
DPS Mechanic: Traited consistent Sword damage
Survivability Mechanic: Regular Interrupts using CC skills, heal skill, Endure Pain
Party Boon Mechanic: None
Party Heal Mechainic: None

Guardian
Backline Support
DPS Mechanic: Regular DPS
Survivability Mechanic: Traited Virtues, Shouts, Kiting, Dodging
Party Boon Mechanic: Traited Shouts
Party Heal Mechanic: Traited Shouts