Guild Wars 2

Stormcrow.7513:

Can someone provide a list of some new MMO’s that support the trinity in a fantasy setting please?

The thing is most new mmo are going soft trinity now you can say GW2 is the same way you just cant over specialized.

The thing I would most like to see more of in terms of dungeons and groups, is experienced people taking a look at what I’m running, and rather than saying “nope, you have to get different gear” or something similar, they’d say “ok, so you’re running this … so to get the best out of that set up you might want to think about using X skill and X utility … do you have a sceptre? That might come in handy …”

Not that I am refusing to change my gear or my set up on any character, because I am. I like to learn and I love to get good, helpful advice from the people who really know this game and how to play it.

But some people should realise that some people may only have one char at 80 – maybe that char is a Necromancer. Should that stop them from being able to run dungeons because “they have no role”? No. They can have a role – the game is flexible enough that it allows them to contribute to a group. People also need to realise that changing builds isn’t always as straightforward as 1, 2, 3. Some people don’t have the gold, others don’t know how to play a particular build. Put someone who usually runs a tanky Guard in zerkers and maybe they won’t do so well so will contribute less over that run than they could in their tanky gear.

So experienced players could help here, tell them what they CAN do to have a role and fulfil it effectively. As people become more confident with the game, they’ll start experimenting for sure – I know I did. But it took the kindness and patience of others to help me get there.

Now, of course, if you are looking to run a dungeon a specific way, I have no objections to you saying that and getting a group that will fix that. This post is directed and anyone who isn’t looking necessarily to do that, but still insists that nobody other than X, Y or Z profession or build can have a role in their group. It simply isn’t true. You don’t need the trinity and you don’t need just DPS.

You’re so funny. Calling me an elitist. Ha.

We were talking about the dungeon forum. Nobody asked me for the site. I said “the dungeon subforum is useful and helpful for these reasons”. They countered with “it would be more helpful if it linked to builds” and I replied with “it is linked in the FAQ”. You need to stop taking things out of context.

Anyway, please leave your rude comments outside. I’m done with this thread, it’s been derailed by you and other posters for the past 3 pages and it is getting boring.

Feel free to PM me, though, and we can continue your insulting snide ignorant comments there.

Another thought I’ve had about the “trinity” thing though is that the way GW2 is designed without the trinity makes defensive playing so much more…ehm…different. Priest in WoW is the easiest class to solo with, Monk in GW1 is the easiest class to solo with, prior to the 55 nerf (although 600 smite is still pretty wicked for “soloing” the Great Destroyer)…

When you get right down to it, you’ve made warriors/mesmers/thieves more of the solo gods while there’s no priest/cleric. The change is radical and most people don’t like that.

The thing is hannah. This is a forum, not a community website about the game. This is were people come to talk to each other, not to make a database of all information in the game. If someone make a topics and ask, ‘’hey i want to learn how to do dungeon, but i don’t know where to looks. Do you guy have any website or video that would help me?‘’ Then people will link gw2dungeon.net (which btw was left unattended for a long time, but the guys get back to upgrade it not that long ago) or they could link to the youtube channel of DnT which is not that well organized, but if you dig a bit you can find wonderful information and not only for ’’elitists speed clear’’. Or we could point them to the dungeon mentor guild when amazing ppl will take their own time to ‘’teach how they want’’ ; ).

Btw this kind of tread was on the forum on several occasion. It come, then when the guys have its answer the tread get lost in the thousand of topics until someone else can’t find it and ask the same question again. I repeat, this is a forum not a wikipedia page or a community project website on how to do dungeon. Some stuff were in place (by some nice people that took the time to put them there), but the forum is more about people asking question by creating a topics, and other people answering the post, which is already done.

But some people should realise that some people may only have one char at 80 – maybe that char is a Necromancer. Should that stop them from being able to run dungeons because “they have no role”? No. They can have a role – the game is flexible enough that it allows them to contribute to a group. People also need to realise that changing builds isn’t always as straightforward as 1, 2, 3. Some people don’t have the gold, others don’t know how to play a particular build. Put someone who usually runs a tanky Guard in zerkers and maybe they won’t do so well so will contribute less over that run than they could in their tanky gear.

Literally the only role a necromancer can have in a dungeon is DPS, and they’re outclassed by guardians, thieves, elementalists, warriors, rangers and theoretically, mesmers since a necromancer has no unique group utility, and anything it can do, other classes can do the same plus more.

I fail to see how players who are actually good with the trinity and are discussing GW2’s problematic lacking is considered “derailing” by any standard other than your own elitism

But it’s not problematic in the slightest, it is literally just people who didn’t read the “we won’t have tanks and healers” blog post complaining over a year later that … the game doesn’t have tanks and healers. Like, if it’s that big a deal you should have kind of got the hint and stopped playing.

hendo.1940:

But some people should realise that some people may only have one char at 80 – maybe that char is a Necromancer. Should that stop them from being able to run dungeons because “they have no role”? No. They can have a role – the game is flexible enough that it allows them to contribute to a group. People also need to realise that changing builds isn’t always as straightforward as 1, 2, 3. Some people don’t have the gold, others don’t know how to play a particular build. Put someone who usually runs a tanky Guard in zerkers and maybe they won’t do so well so will contribute less over that run than they could in their tanky gear.

Literally the only role a necromancer can have in a dungeon is DPS, and they’re outclassed by guardians, thieves, elementalists, warriors, rangers and theoretically, mesmers since a necromancer has no unique group utility, and anything it can do, other classes can do the same plus more.

Well, that’s still a role. The argument isn’t really about whether or not particular professions are better than others, it’s about roles professions can play. Necros can play a DPS role. So there we are, Necros have a role that can be filled.

Please note, I’m not arguing that a Warrior, Guardian, Thief, Ele, etc aren’t better at DPS – just that Necros can contribute in some way. Imo, they’re not bad at some support (again, not as good as XXX class etc) in terms of DPS support – they have a good blind and they can convert conditions to boons on their allies, they have a skill to res downed players and can clear trash mobs really well (if that group is looking to do so) with their aoe damage. So they have things to do, which is the point, not whether anyone else can do it better.

hendo.1940:

But some people should realise that some people may only have one char at 80 – maybe that char is a Necromancer. Should that stop them from being able to run dungeons because “they have no role”? No. They can have a role – the game is flexible enough that it allows them to contribute to a group. People also need to realise that changing builds isn’t always as straightforward as 1, 2, 3. Some people don’t have the gold, others don’t know how to play a particular build. Put someone who usually runs a tanky Guard in zerkers and maybe they won’t do so well so will contribute less over that run than they could in their tanky gear.

Literally the only role a necromancer can have in a dungeon is DPS, and they’re outclassed by guardians, thieves, elementalists, warriors, rangers and theoretically, mesmers since a necromancer has no unique group utility, and anything it can do, other classes can do the same plus more.

I fail to see how players who are actually good with the trinity and are discussing GW2’s problematic lacking is considered “derailing” by any standard other than your own elitism

But it’s not problematic in the slightest, it is literally just people who didn’t read the “we won’t have tanks and healers” blog post complaining over a year later that … the game doesn’t have tanks and healers. Like, if it’s that big a deal you should have kind of got the hint and stopped playing.

Um hendo. You may want to reread what you’re replying to about Necros. Keep in mind you’re addressing players who feel spurned by the current meta.

Hawke.9013:

It works. I don’t mean to burst A-Net’s bubble with the whole, “ground shaking” idea of removing the trinity, but there’s a reason why every MMO uses it. It’s not as frustrating as every mob being uncontrollable; since, with no tank I guess that’s what A-Net wants. As a thief, it is very frustrating to have a boss turn around and one shot you in a split second. Everything PvE oriented is uncontrolled, and very badly structured.

Removing the ‘Holy Trinity’ is, from a long-time MMO player’s perspective, a good thing on several levels:

1) I’m not sitting around outside a dungeon constantly searching for a healer/tank/mage.

2) I don’t have to spend seven hours grinding dungeons just to make myself useful to a group, only to get bumped when a ‘better tank’ comes along.

I agree it’s frustrating to be one-shot by a mob; it’s frustrating in any MMO. Mobs, however, are far from ‘uncontrollable’. Every class here has some form of crowd-control — it’s just a matter of learning how to use it effectively.

At least we wont be needing “heroes” in gw2 cause of lack of healers. Thats good for the future Thats good enough reason for me to be loving the no trinity thing.

Recalibar.6482:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

hannah mee.7925:

After playing guild wars 2 since release, I can safely say that I don’t think I’ve ever seen “LFG [engineer/ranger/necromancer].” There are times where I see requests for Thieves and Elementalists for specific dungeons like CM and AC, and Mesmers, Warriors, and Guards are unanimously requested for dungeon runs.

That’s class imbalance if you ask me.

LOL

People thinking Mesmers, guardians, and warriors are the only classes in the Meta.

Please, please please please please go read up on the current meta!

Reasons you don’t see people asking for this class or that class: good groups don’t pug. Speedrunners who “speedrun” in pugs are usually not even playing the meta.

By the way, 3 warriors 1 guard 1 mesmer is so last year.

You sure?

Positively sure! Current speedrun record for Honor of the Wave p1: video. Team composition: Thief/War/Guard/Ele/Ele.

Source: http://gwscr.com/records/current-meta-dungeon-records

kgptzac.8419:

Now now, there is no need to assume an elitist stance in defense of being accused of being elitist.

I stand behind my previous comment: the dungeons subforum isn’t helpful to those who most need help in dungeons. Sorry for not making my example clear on what would make the *subforum helpful: Not only a list of meta builds, but also how they synergize with each other, etc, and how to speedrun paths, etc.*

Note that I am not saying particular people being helpful or not helpful; my comment was about and only about the dungeon subforum as a whole. I am in no position and actually am not claiming an individual or group of individuals not being helpful. I’m also not saying the subforum has no value for it not being helpful.

I think a good example of a helpful subforum is https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/players

But let’s stop this tangent. I don’t see discussions within the dungeon subforum that are about “pretend trinity roles”.

What the dungeon subforum community does:
- Offer instruction/guidance to newbies: here and here
- Report Compile Bugs/Exploits/Broken mechanics.
- Discuss strategies for specific encounters.
- Present impressive achievement such as speedrun records and solo kills.
- Offer helpful advices and honest answers to dungeon-related questions.
- Point you to the right resources.
- Offer dungeon-related entertainment in forms of unconventional challenge such as Lupi kill in Quaggan forms, Arah no dodge or Dungeon clearing full Minion Masters.
- Casual friendly chat, and to some extend, making an LFG between dungeon subforum regulars.
- Fierce competition in Fashion.

What the dungeon subforum community is not obliged to do:
- Rate your builds. Please don’t expect get brownie points for creativity either.
- Dictate what kind of teams should be played in dungeons.
- Spoonfeed every information so you can breeze to success. There are plenty of resources to it, FAQ states them all. In additions, strategies will often be changed to beat the old record.
- Comfort every QQ crowds for their unability to fit into a ‘Zerk only. Speedrun’ pug. Pug. PUG!!! (Honestly, why are people bothered by ‘Zerk only. Speedrun’ pug so much?)
- Support every ideas of change. If you ask for a change, win the crowd by reasons.

For sanity’s sake, ‘forum’ is a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged, and should be used kitten. If anyone has a question, ask, and your answer will be delivered. It. Is. Not. A. Wikipedia.

CrossedHorse.4261:

hendo.1940:

But some people should realise that some people may only have one char at 80 – maybe that char is a Necromancer. Should that stop them from being able to run dungeons because “they have no role”? No. They can have a role – the game is flexible enough that it allows them to contribute to a group. People also need to realise that changing builds isn’t always as straightforward as 1, 2, 3. Some people don’t have the gold, others don’t know how to play a particular build. Put someone who usually runs a tanky Guard in zerkers and maybe they won’t do so well so will contribute less over that run than they could in their tanky gear.

Literally the only role a necromancer can have in a dungeon is DPS, and they’re outclassed by guardians, thieves, elementalists, warriors, rangers and theoretically, mesmers since a necromancer has no unique group utility, and anything it can do, other classes can do the same plus more.

Well, that’s still a role. The argument isn’t really about whether or not particular professions are better than others, it’s about roles professions can play. Necros can play a DPS role. So there we are, Necros have a role that can be filled.

Please note, I’m not arguing that a Warrior, Guardian, Thief, Ele, etc aren’t better at DPS – just that Necros can contribute in some way. Imo, they’re not bad at some support (again, not as good as XXX class etc) in terms of DPS support – they have a good blind and they can convert conditions to boons on their allies, they have a skill to res downed players and can clear trash mobs really well (if that group is looking to do so) with their aoe damage. So they have things to do, which is the point, not whether anyone else can do it better.

Minion masters are awesome. They can play very well in dungeons. Hendo’s point is they are not suitable in the competitive speedruns, because other classes do their jobs better. But don’t let others fun ruin your fun. Minion master are awesome, after all.

The game has no difficulty levels other than the primary mode of dungeon grinding. What do you do once you have aced that? Let’s relate this game to WoW shall we? WoW looks after every type of gamer; casual=flex, regular=normal mode, hardcore raider=heroics. What do we have in GW2 to satisfy everyones needs? Story and explorable mode dungeons? Fractals? Personal stories/living world? All this is generally on the same level. The reason they can’t do higher level of difficulties probably because their combat system is so flawed that one literally can’t do large-scale bosses, and raids because it would be so unorganized and hectic.

If Gw2 wants to succeed and make it to lasting 10 years, the combat system has to improve nd not make all of the zones a rectangle). No one likes the same old thing. Not only does the living world not support new coming players, but there is also no room to excel and get better once you have mastered the ever so similar mechanics to most bosses.

As I have been saying and will keep saying, the holy trinity may not need to come back, but at least put in place some sort of organized combat where everyone has their set role, and the roles are different from player to player, rather than everyone being ful zerker and dpsing the whole time.

Hawke.9013:

The game has no difficulty levels other than the primary mode of dungeon grinding. What do you do once you have aced that? Let’s relate this game to WoW shall we? WoW looks after every type of gamer; casual=flex, regular=normal mode, hardcore raider=heroics. What do we have in GW2 to satisfy everyones needs? Story and explorable mode dungeons? Fractals? Personal stories/living world? All this is generally on the same level. The reason they can’t do higher level of difficulties probably because their combat system is so flawed that one literally can’t do large-scale bosses, and raids because it would be so unorganized and hectic.

Tequatl, Wurm and Marionette say, “Hi!” How many 80-100 player raids does WoW have, exactly?

Hawke.9013:

If Gw2 wants to succeed and make it to lasting 10 years, the combat system has to improve nd not make all of the zones a rectangle). No one likes the same old thing. Not only does the living world not support new coming players, but there is also no room to excel and get better once you have mastered the ever so similar mechanics to most bosses.

What does zone shape have to do with GW2 combat or the trinity topic? If there is no room to get better in LW, why are there threads saying that players need to improve their play in LW?

Hawke.9013:

As I have been saying and will keep saying, the holy trinity may not need to come back, but at least put in place some sort of organized combat where everyone has their set role, and the roles are different from player to player, rather than everyone being ful zerker and dpsing the whole time.

There are organized groups in GW2, at least in high end play. Besides dungeon runs by coordinated groups of skilled players, there are alliances of guilds doing/attempting the large open world “raid” bosses. In order to tie the entirety of a character to one role exclusively, as in trinity play, GW2 would have to completely revamp from the ground up. Chances of that range from extremely unlikely to no way in hell.

Perhaps your experience in GW2 would improve if you stopped thinking of roles as something a player character is married to. Perhaps think of the functions of the dps, support and control roles as actions that are taken by whoever in the group can at times when its advantageous to do so — rather than as something only one player can do, while doing nothing else. If you can’t get the horse to change directions, maybe its time to ride the horse in the direction it’s already going.

Hawke.9013:

As I have been saying and will keep saying, the holy trinity may not need to come back, but at least put in place some sort of organized combat where everyone has their set role, and the roles are different from player to player, rather than everyone being ful zerker and dpsing the whole time.

I don’t see the value of rigid roles.

Everyone has a mix of roles: do DPS, and use CC and support when appropriate. Big tanks and healers are removed, replaced by action gameplay.

Your gear/traits determine the distribution of the three roles on your character.

Faster runs require a good team composition, use of coordinated team support, CC, lots of non-DPS, team stuff.

And not everyone is running full zerker, I regularly see many people who aren’t.

Full zerk is popular and meta in PvE because there will always be speedruns in every game. Most people will want to run dungeons fast, they’ve done them repeatedly. That, and I don’t think the game is physically challenging enough.

Full zerk does not mean no team, no support, no CC.

Hawke.9013:

The game has no difficulty levels other than the primary mode of dungeon grinding. What do you do once you have aced that?

In the first post of this topic, you complained about being killed by a boss, and repeatedly mentioned how troublesome dodging was.

Have you really aced this game?

The Holy Trinity is only holy if you are a member of that belief system. If you are not, like Anet, then it is in fact not holy.

Not so long ago i met a dire ele in fractals (don’t get a heart attack as i did almost, he linked full ascended) and we started to talk about builds and stuff.
He can’t be convinienced that for example a zerker ele can use Sandstorm too to mitigate damage, because it’s a “damage skill for condi users” and he is awesome, because his tanky gear enables to ress people while can keep up 4k dps with 24 stacks of bleed after each pull with Eruption spam.

Moral of the story? Learn to play? I guess.

Dalanor.5387:

Moral of the story? Learn to play? I guess.

moral of the story is that there is no real build diversity
in PVE, conditions are low DPS, and defensive stats cost too much and don’t scale well.

so L2P = wear mostly Berzerker , if you are low HP Class like ele, you can throw in one or two Valk pieces or knight pieces, just to be above 1 hit KO.
but god forbid wearing anything else for dungeons.

investing in healing power, severely slows your team
going ‘balanced’ soldier = mildly slows your team
going condition damage = OK if you’re the only one, very bad if you have another condition traited member. (also i still want to see condition class solo lupi…)
going condition duration for CC = severely slows your team.

i have two gear sets on my guardian, zerker and cleric.
and i constantly switch between them, ( because berzerker is efficient, and cleric is how i see the guardian in my mind… )
one day i am using obals DPS build and i can carry an average pug easily, because we can kill the enemy before we run out of our blind/aegis/personal heal/ WOR .
another day i feel like going healing, and i see all the green numbers, but they are useless…

if the PUG is bad, i contribute nothing to the goal and the run is very slow, who cares if i am the last to die?
if i cant really heal up the constant damage even with 2K healing power?
if the PUG is good , they don’t need me and i am again contributing very little to the group effort… because the only thing that matters is DPS DPS DPS, utility is important also, as long as it doesn’t reduce your DPS.

we are in catch 22 here, if healing power , toughness and condition damage will be re-balanced, it will break sPVP. but if it will be left in the current situation then the PVE is boring broken….

IrisTheCasual.3742:

CrossedHorse.4261:

hendo.1940:

But some people should realise that some people may only have one char at 80 – maybe that char is a Necromancer. Should that stop them from being able to run dungeons because “they have no role”? No. They can have a role – the game is flexible enough that it allows them to contribute to a group. People also need to realise that changing builds isn’t always as straightforward as 1, 2, 3. Some people don’t have the gold, others don’t know how to play a particular build. Put someone who usually runs a tanky Guard in zerkers and maybe they won’t do so well so will contribute less over that run than they could in their tanky gear.

Literally the only role a necromancer can have in a dungeon is DPS, and they’re outclassed by guardians, thieves, elementalists, warriors, rangers and theoretically, mesmers since a necromancer has no unique group utility, and anything it can do, other classes can do the same plus more.

Well, that’s still a role. The argument isn’t really about whether or not particular professions are better than others, it’s about roles professions can play. Necros can play a DPS role. So there we are, Necros have a role that can be filled.

Please note, I’m not arguing that a Warrior, Guardian, Thief, Ele, etc aren’t better at DPS – just that Necros can contribute in some way. Imo, they’re not bad at some support (again, not as good as XXX class etc) in terms of DPS support – they have a good blind and they can convert conditions to boons on their allies, they have a skill to res downed players and can clear trash mobs really well (if that group is looking to do so) with their aoe damage. So they have things to do, which is the point, not whether anyone else can do it better.

Minion masters are awesome. They can play very well in dungeons. Hendo’s point is they are not suitable in the competitive speedruns, because other classes do their jobs better. But don’t let others fun ruin your fun. Minion master are awesome, after all.

Yes, MM builds are cool too. I know that they aren’t much good for competitive speedruns, but if Hendo had read any of my previous posts he/she would realise that I acknowledged that. This thread isn’t about those kind of runs in particular, it’s about the roles we can or can’t play now that we have not got the “holy trinity”.

It would be nice to see people all talking about what classes CAN do, and what players CAN do with what they’re running, than an endless list of what people CAN’T do and why if they don’t go X build with X profession they’re either stupid or bad. I feel if peopel are told what they can do and how they can be useful, they’re more inclined to listen and learn and enjoy themselves than if they’re just constantly told they’re doing something wrong. That just devolves into an “elitist/casual” argument, where people exaggerate and insult each other and nothing gets achieved.

teufeldritch.7691:

The Holy Trinity is only holy if you are a member of that belief system. If you are not, like Anet, then it is in fact not holy.

Combat atheism! Whoooo!

Seriously, though, the lack of a trinity is a major selling point of the game. To suddenly put it in would be like adding eight-way run and weapons to Street Fighter IV, or throwing blue shells in Forza. If you don’t like it, there are other games. So go play them, because coming to a forum to try and convince everyone else that they’re suddenly not enjoying the game simply because you don’t looks kinda ridiculous.

This is not a trinity based game, the thread title is attracting trolls, and there are plenty of other games (see: all of them.) that cater to the trinity. GW2’s problems in PvE have less to do with the lack of a trinity and more to do with design decisions for particular instances/content. Did we really need 7 pages?

Lalangamena.3694:

Dalanor.5387:

Moral of the story? Learn to play? I guess.

moral of the story is that there is no real build diversity
in PVE, conditions are low DPS, and defensive stats cost too much and don’t scale well.

so L2P = wear mostly Berzerker , if you are low HP Class like ele, you can throw in one or two Valk pieces or knight pieces, just to be above 1 hit KO.
but god forbid wearing anything else for dungeons.

investing in healing power, severely slows your team
going ‘balanced’ soldier = mildly slows your team
going condition damage = OK if you’re the only one, very bad if you have another condition traited member. (also i still want to see condition class solo lupi…)
going condition duration for CC = severely slows your team.

i have two gear sets on my guardian, zerker and cleric.
and i constantly switch between them, ( because berzerker is efficient, and cleric is how i see the guardian in my mind… )
one day i am using obals DPS build and i can carry an average pug easily, because we can kill the enemy before we run out of our blind/aegis/personal heal/ WOR .
another day i feel like going healing, and i see all the green numbers, but they are useless…

if the PUG is bad, i contribute nothing to the goal and the run is very slow, who cares if i am the last to die?
if i cant really heal up the constant damage even with 2K healing power?
if the PUG is good , they don’t need me and i am again contributing very little to the group effort… because the only thing that matters is DPS DPS DPS, utility is important also, as long as it doesn’t reduce your DPS.

we are in catch 22 here, if healing power , toughness and condition damage will be re-balanced, it will break sPVP. but if it will be left in the current situation then the PVE is boring broken….

This guy gets it.

Lalangamena.3694:

moral of the story is that there is no real build diversity
in PVE, conditions are low DPS, and defensive stats cost too much and don’t scale well.

so L2P = wear mostly Berzerker , if you are low HP Class like ele, you can throw in one or two Valk pieces or knight pieces, just to be above 1 hit KO.
but god forbid wearing anything else for dungeons.

investing in healing power, severely slows your team
going ‘balanced’ soldier = mildly slows your team
going condition damage = OK if you’re the only one, very bad if you have another condition traited member. (also i still want to see condition class solo lupi…)
going condition duration for CC = severely slows your team.

i have two gear sets on my guardian, zerker and cleric.
and i constantly switch between them, ( because berzerker is efficient, and cleric is how i see the guardian in my mind… )
one day i am using obals DPS build and i can carry an average pug easily, because we can kill the enemy before we run out of our blind/aegis/personal heal/ WOR .
another day i feel like going healing, and i see all the green numbers, but they are useless…

Ok, so you are slower if you take a defensive approach. Remind me please, if you took more defensive approach in gw1 pve, were you as fast as a speed clearer?

if the PUG is bad, i contribute nothing to the goal and the run is very slow, who cares if i am the last to die?
if i cant really heal up the constant damage even with 2K healing power?
if the PUG is good , they don’t need me and i am again contributing very little to the group effort… because the only thing that matters is DPS DPS DPS, utility is important also, as long as it doesn’t reduce your DPS.

I’m pretty sure that if you’d wanted to complete high scales fractals (70+) without a headache, you’d take utility that didn’t increase your dps. CC, weakness and protection were in demand. The content is too easy, that’s why dps is all that matters. But if you increase the difficulty of said content, some people might find it too hard.

we are in catch 22 here, if healing power , toughness and condition damage will be re-balanced, it will break sPVP. but if it will be left in the current situation then the PVE is boring broken….

I don’t know about you but I personally find it boring to play a red-bars-go-up type of character as well as standing in the back and spamming your bleeds. Especially in the game that was advertised with its active combat system.

Oh, right. Condition build lupicus solo

KarlaGrey.5903:

This guy gets it.

Well no, not really.

Honestly, the fact most of your arguments include a variation of ‘but in high level fractals you need dis and dat and gotta do stuffs’ speaks for itself.

So yea, the guy gets it more than you do. By far.

I think it says it’s advisable to use them, not that you need them. My point was that the game is too easy so why would you use utilities when there’s no need for it unless you want create a specific situation which leads to a very fast content completion aka some of the speedclears but then again, who here ever participated in a speedclear?

The reason why you see the build variety (not really) in pvp is because the objective is different. I’m pretty certain that if the content required you to hold few points with limited resources, bunkers would find their niche. The objective in instanced pve is to get to the end reward as fast as possible so it’s natural that you pick as much offense as you can.

On the sidenote, were there so many complaints about speedclearing in gw1 pve? Heck, there was even a site with meta builds you were expected to run with any decent pve-ers. Casual play-how-you-want builds in gw1 were still as popular as they are now.

Lastly, I’m pretty sure that argument (high level fractals) was used once so please stop inflating your counterarguments.

haviz.1340:

Oh, right. Condition build lupicus solo

I rest my case

it takes zerkers ele 4 minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vyKIIKsSNs

goku – another (legendary?) ele , took him in 2 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjWo9nbu7v0
which is almost four times faster than the condition way…

for warrior it takes 5 minutes, again faster than conditions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rdb33Jr-Wyo

and it is not that i am slower but safer in the defensive approach.
there is NO correlation between survival of a group and defensive build!

on the contrary, defensive build/gear hinders you, your overall performance is worse.
a good player and a mediocre player, both will be better on highly offensive build. in PVE playing defensive is harder, because your are limited by cool downs (as there is no mana or energy ) and you will be attacked faster than your cooldowns will return, and you will always heal less than the mobs/boss hit.
so time is playing against you.

it is different in PVP, because in PVP you can use your dodge/block on 100blade/heartseeker and then heal the auto attacks , because they are more or less in the same magnitude of the heals.

also, there is no lvl 70 fractals
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractals_of_the_Mists
level 50 is top level.

moreover, take a good static fractal group of guild that run together levels 40+.
retrait them from damage builds to healing/support builds. in sentinel/cleric/magi/ givers/apothecary etc… gears and see how they manage to complete the fractals.

it will be tremendously harder for those players to run the same content.

I am not against active combat system, I like it very much, I just cant play any other game after i got used to GW2. ( and i tried…)

but the diversity of builds and armors is a lie.
they could just delete all armors completely leaving only berzerkers, at least there would be less confusion.
- in PVP and WWW, there are pseudo roles and armor differences, but in PVE nope.

Again, confusing efficiency with utility. Other builds than highly offensive ones are perfectly viable, but less efficient. Not everyone plays for efficiency, therefore this isn’t an issue for them. For those who do play for efficiency, then yes, I can see the argument for lack of diversity, but I don’t think this is necessarily to do with the lack of trinity, more with enemy design/mechanics.

PvE in this game is some of the worst I’ve ever seen. I cannot wrap my head around why anyone would play this game for only the PvE.

Runescape had better PvE than this game.

When I first started this game I saw it as PvP centric with the PvE as a distraction in between. Yet anet has neglected the PvP in this game to the extent its not worth playing any more. WvW finally got some attention even if it was nothing but a karma train map.

sPvP has been left in the dust all for the terribly written, terribly voice acted, stupid zerg fest that was living story.

Getting back on topic, the lack of the trinity really works in PvP, makes the game more fun because of it. Throwing that away to help a kitten portion of the game makes no sense to me.

I’m going to jump on the: I do not agree train.

There is absolutely no need for a HT in mmo’s if you get one shot by a boss as a thief some teammates or you are doing something wrong, or it’s meant to happen.

I think there are plenty of mmos out there with the HT. ANet is doing great not implementing it in this game.

Lalangamena.3694:

I rest my case

it takes zerkers ele 4 minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vyKIIKsSNs

goku – another (legendary?) ele , took him in 2 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjWo9nbu7v0
which is almost four times faster than the condition way…

for warrior it takes 5 minutes, again faster than conditions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rdb33Jr-Wyo

Ele solos abuse fgs, you can’t correlate it with the viability of direct damage and condition damage.

Berserker’s warrior almost 5 minutes:
http://youtu.be/lMsqkrFlw7M

Rabid warrior less than 7 minutes:
http://youtu.be/42YD0QBlQ0o

Condition warrior has much more defense so unless you expect a build that has 1900 toughness to have similar killing time as build with 900 toughness I have no clue what to say.

and it is not that i am slower but safer in the defensive approach.
there is NO correlation between survival of a group and defensive build!

on the contrary, defensive build/gear hinders you, your overall performance is worse.
a good player and a mediocre player, both will be better on highly offensive build. in PVE playing defensive is harder, because your are limited by cool downs (as there is no mana or energy ) and you will be attacked faster than your cooldowns will return, and you will always heal less than the mobs/boss hit.
so time is playing against you.

it is different in PVP, because in PVP you can use your dodge/block on 100blade/heartseeker and then heal the auto attacks , because they are more or less in the same magnitude of the heals.

I find this clip proving otherwise:
http://youtu.be/b2VhmwLwvrM

also, there is no lvl 70 fractals
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractals_of_the_Mists
level 50 is top level.

There was scale 70 for one year.

moreover, take a good static fractal group of guild that run together levels 40+.
retrait them from damage builds to healing/support builds. in sentinel/cleric/magi/ givers/apothecary etc… gears and see how they manage to complete the fractals.

it will be tremendously harder for those players to run the same content.

As the previous clip shows that statement is probably untrue. What stops fully defensive groups from completing fractals? Because they still do damage.

I am not against active combat system, I like it very much, I just cant play any other game after i got used to GW2. ( and i tried…)

but the diversity of builds and armors is a lie.
they could just delete all armors completely leaving only berzerkers, at least there would be less confusion.
- in PVP and WWW, there are pseudo roles and armor differences, but in PVE nope.

There is no diversity of gear stats at the optimal level which is completely in line with basic math as well as other games if you assume that each role has meta gear. That assumption should be correct because in other games you need defensive stats.

Holy Trinity Batman!

sanctuary.1068:

At least we wont be needing “heroes” in gw2 cause of lack of healers. Thats good for the future Thats good enough reason for me to be loving the no trinity thing.

Heroes were never required in the endgame of GW1. What happened in GW1 is that as everyone moved to the endgame and left the trail between Start → Finish a pretty desolate place. Finding healers or tanks was pretty easy…until Underworld, Factions, Deep, Urgoz and JQ/FA came out. After that, there was a grand total of 2 players in any of the last maps. This is the same thing that happens in some of GW2’s “endgame” content such as Orr – having to actively work to get participation to do, say, map completion. It wasn’t a lack of healers or tanks, it was a lack of any community in the endgame-before-time.

Of course, GW2 will never have this problem if they go where they have been and never move the endgame.

It’s called Holy Trinity because of association with the religious doctrine. Has nothing to do with it being “required” in any game, much less has it been ordained by the “game gods” as a must-have element in MMOs.

GW2 didn’t do away with it just to troll people like the OP-it was their plan long ago. The only problem they have (IMHO) is that many of their encounters are scripted in such manner that takes away a lot from what their own system could be. So it’s not that we need any such trinity, but that encounters could take better advantage of the new active system (been better as of late, but the game does have too many direct damage checks.)

I agree (and so does ANet) with the notion that DPSing everything out of the way on PvE is too attractive, making most other less direct damage-oriented gear options questionable in the eyes of many. It wouldn’t be worth mentioning it, but it does causes rifts in the community when people are belittled for being “special snowflakes” (which is a stupid insult-everybody is special, and has the right to approach the game differently, including if they want, to adapt to meta or play whatever) just because they won’t play “like they are supposed to”.

Not every player should use “optimal” gear, and regardless math, some gear is more optimal for specific types of players than others. I wouldn’t dare call someone I don’t know a “baddie” just because he/she chose gear other than what the “optimal” meta requires-that’s just being a jerk, and has nothing to do with being an “elite” player.

I think the main issue with the removal of the Trinity isn’t the fact that it wasn’t replaced with anything (it was; the system we have now), but the fact that the content itself is designed in such a way that it doesn’t utilise the depth that the system implemented offers, whether that be through content design or flawed mechanics.

This isn’t saying that the system is perfect; certain parts (such as Defiant and the combo system) need working on, or even complete reworking. However, the system could work very well, as long as the encounters were designed to use parts of the system other than dodge and damage.

Another thing; you don’t need a Trinity-esque system of pre-defined, static and all encompassing roles (that is, roles that never change depending on the content) in order to have roles (which seems to be the main issue people have). Roles aren’t limited to the concepts of tanking, control, damage, healing, supporting ect. The term role in itself means your purpose within the group.

Look at the Effigy in CoF. If the fight worked as it was supposed to all of the time (needing to destroy the crystals, as opposed to brute-forcing them), then there’s an example of a role built into the fight, and unique to that fight.

As for controlling Aggro in the way of the Trinity; IMO, it’s one of the mechanics that limits AI.

Guild wars 2 does actualy possess tanking unlike what some would believe. Minion masters and mesmer exemplify this principe. While active defence still is the most used form of tanking around pet menagery get things done in many instance because of the fact bigger numbers means less hit taken as a rule. Guild Wars always did its tanking via pets and minion and this is not likely to change anytime soon. Guild Wars 2 unlike what you pretend do have a Trinity called DPS CONTROL SUPPORT wich is similar to world of warcraft tank dps heals however the roles impact and importance where minimised to leave place to actual player true skillplay.

I can no longuer blame a BAD tank for ruining my fight neither can a crap dps blame a healer for having not saved his sorry head after having stood stupidly in the firewall. Roles and skills of player behing defined independantly you no longuer require a specific party setting to do a dungeon.

TESO seems to fellow the same logic as Healer and tanks are no longuer required to do dungeons (i finished banished cells with 5 nightblade all of them behing pure glass cannon dps using bows, this was my best dungeon run ever) potions and self Healing technique is the new brand of the Trinity in a party right now and its perfect that way as every player is independant and no one will be able to blame the others for his own downfall. While having a healer might be a boon it must not become so important as to be REQUIRED.

I played dungeons and dragons (3.0, 3.5 and pathfinders) for years, with a party made out of a warrior, a ninja, a Wilder (psionic) and a sorcerer we didnt had a healer or anyone in the party that could do ressurections and heals but we did keep alive quite well trought guile, guerrila and cunning play against possibly overwelming odds, we bought some potions leveled our alchemy improved our gears then ran in the dungeons while messing every mob heads up DM gave us no actual mercy either but we did manage quite fine. The Trinity is a party standard not a imposed model it should be that way.

@Lalangamena
My point was that poor soul based his game experience on that he needs to face tank everything, help ressing up team mates that fail to dodge the same way and lives in a delusional state, where utility skill are just class based, not build based and used it in a wrong way. Also stating 4k dps is something, he lacks overall knowledge about the game (game mode exactly).
This isn’t helps that even that kind of players who are faaaaaaar from the so called “optimal zerker meta builds” still can crawl up in so called “hard content”.
Also as my tiny tale explains, build diversity exist. You can play as a dire ele too, spamming 1 skill on cooldown and succed still. But the amount of time it takes is more, thus it risky and gives more room for error.

tl;dr: there is no need for the holy trinity in pve, since everything is viable and you can succed with it.

Lalangamena.3694:

I rest my case

it takes zerkers ele 4 minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vyKIIKsSNs

goku – another (legendary?) ele , took him in 2 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjWo9nbu7v0
which is almost four times faster than the condition way…

for warrior it takes 5 minutes, again faster than conditions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rdb33Jr-Wyo

and it is not that i am slower but safer in the defensive approach.
there is NO correlation between survival of a group and defensive build!

Condi necro could actually get about a 5min solo kill if it werent for lupi’s lifesteal cleansing conditions. And id like to point out that zerker necro is slower than condi necro for solo. This is simply because phase 1 is so fast on condi necro.

TheDaiBish.9735:

I think the main issue with the removal of the Trinity isn’t the fact that it wasn’t replaced with anything (it was; the system we have now), but the fact that the content itself is designed in such a way that it doesn’t utilise the depth that the system implemented offers, whether that be through content design or flawed mechanics.

This isn’t saying that the system is perfect; certain parts (such as Defiant and the combo system) need working on, or even complete reworking. However, the system could work very well, as long as the encounters were designed to use parts of the system other than dodge and damage.

Another thing; you don’t need a Trinity-esque system of pre-defined, static and all encompassing roles (that is, roles that never change depending on the content) in order to have roles (which seems to be the main issue people have). Roles aren’t limited to the concepts of tanking, control, damage, healing, supporting ect. The term role in itself means your purpose within the group.

Look at the Effigy in CoF. If the fight worked as it was supposed to all of the time (needing to destroy the crystals, as opposed to brute-forcing them), then there’s an example of a role built into the fight, and unique to that fight.

As for controlling Aggro in the way of the Trinity; IMO, it’s one of the mechanics that limits AI.

^^^This, exactly this. Except way better expressed than I managed!

Lalangamena.3694:

-snip-

and it is not that i am slower but safer in the defensive approach.
there is NO correlation between survival of a group and defensive build!

on the contrary, defensive build/gear hinders you, your overall performance is worse.
a good player and a mediocre player, both will be better on highly offensive build.

I digress. Better players will be as good in offensive builds as in defensive builds. Bad players are punished harder in highly offensive builds than defensive builds. But these challenges are what make a bad player improves (learning from mistake).

In PVE playing defensive is harder, because your are limited by cool downs (as there is no mana or energy ) and you will be attacked faster than your cooldowns will return, and you will always heal less than the mobs/boss hit.
so time is playing against you.

It is hard when you use those defensive skills selfishly. If your ‘team’ knows how to coordinates damage mitigation and shares boon properly, your defensive team is figuratively an armored vehicle. Case in point, a full cleric/magi/soldier team ventured in FoTM, unbound dodge and still facetanked (and rolled) literally each and everything.

moreover, take a good static fractal group of guild that run together levels 40+.
retrait them from damage builds to healing/support builds. in sentinel/cleric/magi/ givers/apothecary etc… gears and see how they manage to complete the fractals.

it will be tremendously harder for those players to run the same content

Let me ask why would you think it will be harder? One thing for sure is it will be much slower and thus too boring to do.

but the diversity of builds and armors is a lie.
they could just delete all armors completely leaving only berzerkers, at least there would be less confusion.
- in PVP and WWW, there are pseudo roles and armor differences, but in PVE nope.

This argument is what people who have little investment in time to research their classes to the fullest potentials complain. They will just look at the ones handed to them and think ‘This is it. It’s the best. No points to do anything else nor search further.’ Dungeons are only a small segment of PvE and ‘speedrun’, a term used irresponsibly and wildly by pugs, is only carried out by a few elite PvE guilds. Trying to correct the current state of PvE by punishing berserker armor is like to save a sinking boat with a fork.

I don’t miss “the trinity” in particular. I do miss a game where we are relevant in a party, where everything is not just a DPS fest.

For people saying in GW1 was the same, except for healers: you’re kitten wrong.

I remember the classic TerraWay in Fowsc, where assassins would tank (even without taunts!!!) using the ultimate tank skill: Shadow Form. Making it without taunts made it even more challenging, but possible.
I played as one of those “tanks”, i did 0 damage as main tank, but i knew i contributed like HELL for my team to finish it.

I miss having a role and performing it well but, more than that, i miss seeing other people being pro’s at their roles. I miss seeing a monk i could trust, i miss going into FowSC with 2 strong warriors… Now the “good” players are just the ones who know the paths in dungeons or w/e you’re doing. Everything else is damage.

I don’t want GW2 to be the same as GW1. GW2 is so much better in many aspects… But when you feel part of a machine, where what you’re doing is fundamental for the team to succeed… That’s irreplaceable.

PS: Sorry for my English.

I have gone over multiple times how GW2 dungeons are not just a DPS fest, and if you’re not interested in actually educating yourself on that, I don’t see why you should have even bothered posting since it isn’t adding anything constructive to the thread when the it’s just DPS myth has been debunked countless times.

haviz.1340:

Ok, so you are slower if you take a defensive approach. Remind me please, if you took more defensive approach in gw1 pve, were you as fast as a speed clearer?

Yes.

CrossedHorse.4261:

Again, confusing efficiency with utility. Other builds than highly offensive ones are perfectly viable, but less efficient. Not everyone plays for efficiency, therefore this isn’t an issue for them. For those who do play for efficiency, then yes, I can see the argument for lack of diversity, but I don’t think this is necessarily to do with the lack of trinity, more with enemy design/mechanics.

Efficiency vs. viability gets stale when a lot of people won’t even accept a player in the LFG system. Thankfully there are plenty of good guilds and I found one, so it’s really not a big deal, but if I had to rely on PUGs to find a group that managed to play well but without “lf zerker – no necro/ranger/engi need apply” I would’ve stopped playing this game months ago.

The profession imbalances with regards to dungeon runs has caused a lot of players to move on to other games. The short answer when someone asks what profession they should be making is warrior, maybe guardian. Otherwise, they find themselves more or less locked out of content later. Guilds help a little.

hannah mee.7925:

Yes.

Great comparison between full speed clears and solo farming which could be “automated”!

hannah mee.7925:

Efficiency vs. viability gets stale when a lot of people won’t even accept a player in the LFG system. Thankfully there are plenty of good guilds and I found one, so it’s really not a big deal, but if I had to rely on PUGs to find a group that managed to play well but without “lf zerker – no necro/ranger/engi need apply” I would’ve stopped playing this game months ago.

So in gw1 uw sc you could have come with w/mo warrior?

If you like the 5 man dungeon and the Trinity so much I would suggest you purchased the wrong game and please go back to doing what you enjoy so much at WoW. Here at GW2 we like to play with a dynamic open world. We like to be responsible for ourselves. We like the idea of helping others help themselves. We like big groups and a big zerg can be fun. We like a big event that calls to everyone in the map to help out. We hope there is always content like this. We even acknowledge that there is content too hard for us to accomplish and move on or try again and again.

We put up with the 5 mans because we know there are players mired in the past that cannot move on and like to play that way, but we ignore the dungeons and do not do them because the dungeons are boring. I ’m sure the dungeons and Fractals here are good for what they are and you can run the same content again and again all you want. But please remember that there lots of players who came to this game for the exact content you hate. That this is a unique game with unique ideals that took almost 7 years longer than expected to come online. I had plenty of time while waiting to play WoW and even Rift and by far GW2 out shines them both. Even with a paying a lot more for gems than my monthly to either of the others, I would not go back. Here we have a future and a group of large minded individuals who can work together and accomplish even big things. And I can play the game without anyone even suggesting that we need to kick someone or complaining we have the worst tank or healer in the world.

Yes, in this environment you need to work together and the zerg, which if I remember correctly was first formed in WoW, is going to play a part in taking down some bosses. But the Marionette was the best example of game play I have ever seen. It was fun, gave good rewards that stepped up each time you accomplished a goal, and was well worth going back again and again and again. Now, I realize not every part of the game is going to be as good as the Marionette but it’s something to strive for.

I have to agree with OP. I actually find GW2 combat much more boring than in mmo with holy trinity, especially in PvE. Now everyone has one role and its dps. So what that we have evasion, it does not add that much.
And tactics? Give me a break. Stand at one hell of a big boss mob and spam all your skills, evade some attacks, so awesome..

Remember Colin Johanson joke about other mmos? “I swong a sword?..” Well that is a joke on GW2 now

Well to be honest, removing holy trinity didn’t change anything, it just made everything more zergish. So no, there was no innovation here.

Tatsuo.1478:

I have to agree with OP. I actually find GW2 combat much more boring than in mmo with holy trinity, especially in PvE. Now everyone has one role and its dps. So what that we have evasion, it does not add that much.
And tactics? Give me a break. Stand at one hell of a big boss mob and spam all your skills, evade some attacks, so awesome..

Remember Colin Johanson joke about other mmos? “I swong a sword?..” Well that is a joke on GW2 now

Well to be honest, removing holy trinity didn’t change anything, it just made everything more zergish. So no, there was no innovation here.

Because spammig 4 skills in a “rotation” and side step from an obvius danger zone is soooooooo exciting.