Guild Wars 2

Let me start this off by explaining what has happened by removing the Holy Trinity. For those of you that have played World of Warcraft you will know what I’m talking about. In World of Warcraft there is a battle ground called Alterac Valley. Among destroying enemy bunkers/towers the main objective is to kill the other team’s boss.

Healers and tanks are needed when attempting to kill the boss. But, what do players do if their team doesn’t have any healers and tanks? They take the nearest grave yard and they will zerg the boss until he is dead. Now that we have a basic understanding let’s discuss what removing the Holy Trinity has really done.

Gw2 doesn’t have healers so structured pvp and World vs World consist of zerg after zerg. Dungeons in Gw2 are nothing but zerg fest as well. When players die during boss attempts all they have to do is release and run back in and continue to zerg the boss until the boss is dead.

Overall, the removal of the Holy Trinity sounded like a very good idea. But, the only thing it did was create voids that are filled with zergs. Futhermore, there are literally hundreds of thousands of players who only like to tank or heal. Removing the Holy Trinity has effectively cut hundreds of thousands of players out of the game…

Gosh. Really?

Think of it as a form of natural selection and you will probably feel much better about it.

Im not sure you really understand what the word zerg means.

I feel similar I must say. Looked great on paper but in reality not so much. On top of that I like tanking like you mentioned. Oh well.

He actually used good description. I remember in AC at some boss we kept dying and just kept running from waypoint to boss one by one untill he died. As long as someone stayed in combat fight did not reset. So yes we basicly overrun him.

I like it the removal of it personally. Makes for some interesting challenges. There are plenty of other games out there that will fulfill innate need for the trinity though. Why wish it on the single game that did away with it?

Raf

I agree the removal of class roles was a very bad idea. I had thought as much when I initially heard about it while the game was in development. I was just about sure that Anet was going to have issues because of this. For starters removing class roles and specializations removes a huge element of strategy which gives the game depth and increases coordination.

Secondly the content needs to be dumbed down sufficiently to accommodate the simplified combat makeup of groups. Instead we get a watered down version of a typical MMO dungeon. And it means people just die over and over, with absolutely no way to avoid it in many cases. I can see the dungeons becoming ghost towns very soon. And after that happens what really is left? Especially for non PVPers?

Already AC and TA are becoming barren wastes, CM is still popular in stroy mode due to the XP you can get. With the other dungeons you will waste a ton of time and be killed repeatedly for little or almost no reward if your group getskitten and quits.

They didn’t so much as remove it as make it not necessary. You can play a ‘tank’ but it is much different from a WoW tank. You’ll be using active dodge, and your stun/knockdown abilities to control the boss as opposed to just soak up damage and hold aggro.

Healing can be done, but again through none WoW ways.

But ultimately the we only define these rolls in WoW/WoW clone ways and just aren’t being open to what ANet is trying to do. I was guilty of it in my first group setting and took me a while to adjust to the way I approach a fight.

The “Holy Trinity” was started by Everquest in MMOs. It was Healer, Tank and Mana Battery (Enchanter). You could NOT do a dungeon without those classes. WoW ‘dumbed down’ the Holy Trinity to start with. And developers have been working to remove it from games altogether. As an EQer, I was initially against the removal of the Holy Trinity. Now, I believe it is an archaic DnD-style system that is used to make content easier once you have said “Trinity.”

Furthermore, many players take on complexes (Tanks and Healers) that they are greater than the team. This reason alone is why “bring the player and not the class” is a better strategy. No group/guild wants to feel shackled into bringing some guy that needs his tanking kitten stroked because they HAVE to have his class.

I am all for the development of MMOs to remove the Trinity (which WoW made a Duo) in favor of well rounded classes that must manage their own survivability. Here is to upping the group’s skill and communicataion while removing the bads from groups.

i agree with this statement as well. I really like how guild wars 2 is, but i really enjoyed being a tank in other mmos. It just seems like this game (which isn’t a bad thing) has no strategy involved other than just rushing into boss fights or capturing forts / keeps. I like how guild wars 2 is trying to be different, but i just think that the holy trinity is not a bad thing that people make it out to be. There is a reason why there are still millions of people subscribing to wow (although most people dislike the game).
Guild wars 2 did a lot of great things in their game and its still a great game but i just think if i had the chance to swap to another Holy trinity game of equal quality as guild wars 2 i think i and many others would.

TL:DR Holy trinity is not a bad thing as of guild wars 2 i currently view it as a casual game instead of a competitive game as it lacks strategy and different roles.
I’m not trying to bash guild wars 2 by no means, but this game would improve for me if there was a holy trinity.

Edit: The Holy trinity allows for classes to be unique and different as of right now all the classes for me feel the same.

The lack of trinity is nether bad – nor good. It’s just different.

Some players like the idea of defined roles and the varying playstyles they provide. And then some people the idea of everyone for themselves.

The Real Player.6382:

i agree with this statement as well. I really like how guild wars 2 is, but i really enjoyed being a tank in other mmos. It just seems like this game (which isn’t a bad thing) has no strategy involved other than just rushing into boss fights or capturing forts / keeps. I like how guild wars 2 is trying to be different, but i just think that the holy trinity is not a bad thing that people make it out to be. There is a reason why there are still millions of people subscribing to wow (although most people dislike the game).
Guild wars 2 did a lot of great things in their game and its still a great game but i just think if i had the chance to swap to another Holy trinity game of equal quality as guild wars 2 i think i and many others would.

TL:DR Holy trinity is not a bad thing as of guild wars 2 i currently view it as a casual game instead of a competitive game as it lacks strategy and different roles.
I’m not trying to bash guild wars 2 by no means, but this game would improve for me if there was a holy trinity.

Edit: The Holy trinity allows for classes to be unique and different as of right now all the classes for me feel the same.

With a strategically organized group all classes are definitely not the same. AoE condition damage, AoE heal/Damage mitigation, AoE Bleeds Damage and then there are single target version of each. If you think an 80 Necro and an 80 Elemental play the same, then you haven’t played both classes. If you think an 80 Warrior and 80 Mesmer play the same, then you haven’t played both classes. If you think an 80 Engineer and an 80 Ranger play the same, then you haven’t played the classes. And if you have played these classes through Arah and you play them the same (which is near impossible while being effective), then you are doing it wrong.

Many people are basing their experiences on the 2 easiest dungeons (CM and CoF). Pug the more difficult ones (AC and Arah) and then tell us that zerg tactics are what wins in the end.

I don’t agree.

While there is no specific healer or tank, classes can be customized to do these functions better than the default that just about everyone else can do.

Work with a good group of people who know how to play their class and understand which abilities to bring to the situation and I think you will start to see that the “Trinity” is most definitely not required.

GW2’s dungeons are by far my least favorite thing about the game. They are unfocused, way too chaotic, and sometimes agonizing.

Dungeon zerging has NOTHING to do with the holy trinity, it happens due to the waypoint system.

When you die you can simply run back in, in RIFT (and I’m assuming WoW as well) there was a barrier preventing you from doing this.

In my opinion it was terrible and they could’ve done it better, but adding it to GW2 would remove the zerging.

Khaldar.7486:

The Real Player.6382:

i agree with this statement as well. I really like how guild wars 2 is, but i really enjoyed being a tank in other mmos. It just seems like this game (which isn’t a bad thing) has no strategy involved other than just rushing into boss fights or capturing forts / keeps. I like how guild wars 2 is trying to be different, but i just think that the holy trinity is not a bad thing that people make it out to be. There is a reason why there are still millions of people subscribing to wow (although most people dislike the game).
Guild wars 2 did a lot of great things in their game and its still a great game but i just think if i had the chance to swap to another Holy trinity game of equal quality as guild wars 2 i think i and many others would.

TL:DR Holy trinity is not a bad thing as of guild wars 2 i currently view it as a casual game instead of a competitive game as it lacks strategy and different roles.
I’m not trying to bash guild wars 2 by no means, but this game would improve for me if there was a holy trinity.

Edit: The Holy trinity allows for classes to be unique and different as of right now all the classes for me feel the same.

With a strategically organized group all classes are definitely not the same. AoE condition damage, AoE heal/Damage mitigation, AoE Bleeds Damage and then there are single target version of each. If you think an 80 Necro and an 80 Elemental play the same, then you haven’t played both classes. If you think an 80 Warrior and 80 Mesmer play the same, then you haven’t played both classes. If you think an 80 Engineer and an 80 Ranger play the same, then you haven’t played the classes. And if you have played these classes through Arah and you play them the same (which is near impossible while being effective), then you are doing it wrong.

Many people are basing their experiences on the 2 easiest dungeons (CM and CoF). Pug the more difficult ones (AC and Arah) and then tell us that zerg tactics are what wins in the end.

Im not basing my opinion off the 2 easiest dungeons im just stating what i feel. Yeah each class does play different but theres only one point and that is to dps. Yes there are other ways to play a class like aoe heals / support abilities but to be honest i just think they go unnoticed.

Edit: Running Arah was not hard if that is what you are getting at. Me and a group made tons of mistakes and were still able to do it without much trouble. (both explorer and story). And yes zerging does work in Arah at least for the first 2 bosses in explorer as that is what i farmed.
Dungeons do not punish you at all, when you die or do something wrong you just revive and run back into the fight.

Maybe you should group up with your guild then to form an organized team.

The Real Player.6382:

…Yes there are other ways to play a class like aoe heals / support abilities but to be honest i just think they go unnoticed.

If someone is interested in playing one of the “holy trinity” don’t you think they’d search out how to best do that?

I know I did. I love playing a healer and so I’ve been doing my research on how best to fit that role and I’ve decided to give it a go with my Elementalist.

So everyone wanting the Trinity back you’re willing to:

a) sit in a que for over an hour for a tank
b) sit in a que for over 30 mins for a healer
c) stopping a dungeon run because you need to kick a bad DPS (not enough DPS or just stands in fire)
d) or sit in a city hub spamming “LF XYZ class” filling chat with useless drivel

That’s really where we would be again. So unless you guys have a better idea of how to go about it, I like the combat system as is.

As someone who has played a Healer in every other MMO I played, I was hesitant at first to accept the lack of a trinity in GW2 but it has won me over and I’m enjoying it a lot. I think it actually encourages that people work together more than the trinity does and the combat system as a whole has a lot of potential for strategy.

If I as a healer did my job well in past games, tanks or dps could mess up or just be sub par and we’d still do fine because I was able to carry people through a lot.

But here, everyone has to pull their weight which is great. Also I can’t just stand back and heal/buff all day. I have to engage the mobs, using damage, healing, control, buffs, debuffs, etc. all in the right ways, and so does my group which has been a fun change of pace. It removes the responsibility and importance that a healer had (good/bad depending on who you ask I think lol) while also letting me keep a playstyle I enjoy. (I have to admit, sometimes the responsibility and importance of being a healer was a lot of fun. You had a lot of power, everyone needed you, and it made the run a lot easier for everyone; but it’s not good for the overall game hence why the trinity is gone).

All in all GW2 is definitely a break from the norm and I think it’s taking a while for everyone to adjust. But I think the system was done well. It promotes teamwork and strategy, but does so in a different and more flexible way, while still allowing everyone to find a playstyle they enjoy.

The Real Player.6382:

Khaldar.7486:

The Real Player.6382:

i agree with this statement as well. I really like how guild wars 2 is, but i really enjoyed being a tank in other mmos. It just seems like this game (which isn’t a bad thing) has no strategy involved other than just rushing into boss fights or capturing forts / keeps. I like how guild wars 2 is trying to be different, but i just think that the holy trinity is not a bad thing that people make it out to be. There is a reason why there are still millions of people subscribing to wow (although most people dislike the game).
Guild wars 2 did a lot of great things in their game and its still a great game but i just think if i had the chance to swap to another Holy trinity game of equal quality as guild wars 2 i think i and many others would.

TL:DR Holy trinity is not a bad thing as of guild wars 2 i currently view it as a casual game instead of a competitive game as it lacks strategy and different roles.
I’m not trying to bash guild wars 2 by no means, but this game would improve for me if there was a holy trinity.

Edit: The Holy trinity allows for classes to be unique and different as of right now all the classes for me feel the same.

With a strategically organized group all classes are definitely not the same. AoE condition damage, AoE heal/Damage mitigation, AoE Bleeds Damage and then there are single target version of each. If you think an 80 Necro and an 80 Elemental play the same, then you haven’t played both classes. If you think an 80 Warrior and 80 Mesmer play the same, then you haven’t played both classes. If you think an 80 Engineer and an 80 Ranger play the same, then you haven’t played the classes. And if you have played these classes through Arah and you play them the same (which is near impossible while being effective), then you are doing it wrong.

Many people are basing their experiences on the 2 easiest dungeons (CM and CoF). Pug the more difficult ones (AC and Arah) and then tell us that zerg tactics are what wins in the end.

Im not basing my opinion off the 2 easiest dungeons im just stating what i feel. Yeah each class does play different but theres only one point and that is to dps. Yes there are other ways to play a class like aoe heals / support abilities but to be honest i just think they go unnoticed.

Condition removal and additions can sway a boss fight. I do not pug, my guild does dungeon runs pretty much any time of day and we always use voice chat. With strats and voice coordination, we do not wipe on boss fights. We have CoF down to 19 minute coordinated runs without deaths and are always looking to lower that time with better strats.

This “Zerging” from the WP that people are talking about sounds like a bunch of bad pug strats to turn the game into WoW speed runs. Again DPS may be awesome for pug strats, but not every boss is going to be easily downed with just a DPS zerg strat. Some boss fights are easier if you kite the boss on 1 player while the other 4 coordinate an objective. Some require 2 players to bounce mobs off of while the other 3 step in and out of the room dpsing.

GlockworK.2954:

So everyone wanting the Trinity back you’re willing to:

a) sit in a que for over an hour for a tank
b) sit in a que for over 30 mins for a healer
c) stopping a dungeon run because you need to kick a bad DPS (not enough DPS or just stands in fire)
d) or sit in a city hub spamming “LF XYZ class” filling chat with useless drivel

That’s really where we would be again. So unless you guys have a better idea of how to go about it, I like the combat system as is.

There are many ways around that.
MMO’s you play with friends and find guilds that want to run dungeons so you dont have these 30 – 1 hour ques.
And to be honest this games dungeons lack big time. From strategy to rewards to originality.

Trinity is boring and overdone. Yeah the dungeons are hard in GW2 but personally I like the challenge.

The Real Player.6382:

GlockworK.2954:

So everyone wanting the Trinity back you’re willing to:

a) sit in a que for over an hour for a tank
b) sit in a que for over 30 mins for a healer
c) stopping a dungeon run because you need to kick a bad DPS (not enough DPS or just stands in fire)
d) or sit in a city hub spamming “LF XYZ class” filling chat with useless drivel

That’s really where we would be again. So unless you guys have a better idea of how to go about it, I like the combat system as is.

There are many ways around that.
MMO’s you play with friends and find guilds that want to run dungeons so you dont have these 30 – 1 hour ques.
And to be honest this games dungeons lack big time. From strategy to rewards to originality.

If you are looking for Dungeons with advanced strats. TSW was much better than WoW. WoW was/is grab a tank and a healer then speed run ez mode to badges. The pugs in TSW were terrible unless they were overgeared.

If you are zerging maybe you should rethink your strategy rather than blame the lack of trinity…

Holy trinity is terrible.

I feel that once people get better used to the various skills they have, and how those skills might work together in various ways, this problem will go away. Right now most people are still getting used to their own classes abilities, let alone those of the other 7. Once the majority of the player base understands combo fields and finishers, its going to get better.

Yes there are better ways to run an instance which shave off time and deaths, but the point im getting at is that zerging with a pug group shouldnt be rewarding at all. Dungeons should require strategy to work, but the way this game is set up disallows that, because of the waypoints right next to the bosses. Yeah im all for doing strategies and what not to do a dungeon but right now in its current state, dungeons in guildwars 2 require 0 strategy to complete which gives people no joy of achievement when they finish it.
A random pug group in arah (with 0 experience) shouldnt be able to just zerg through it.

Sin.8174:

Holy trinity is terrible.

care to be constructive as to why it is terrible?

The trinity is played out, and finding groups isn’t fun with it.

However I think GW2 could do more with group gameplay. Right now group play is basically focusing fire, and helping the occasional downed player.

Champion fights are watching a bar go down.

It just feels kind of like strategy doesn’t really matter that much.

One big problem perhaps is that cause and effect feels weak. Instead of a melee character making their work count by knocking down that bad boss with their hammer… the boss just flicks up immune and tells you to DPS more or get out. In this example I’m saying that the boss shouldn’t just be a big ball of hit points that you wail on forever and kills you with super attacks. Instead, why not have a cool weakness to the boss like knockdown lasts extra seconds… you see, then they can start to build scenarios where people are doing things to make their effort focused and not just mashing through combat.

The trouble is this means a pretty large boss redesign at the very least. I’ll do it for cheap if they’re hiring, though!

TurtleofPower.5641:

The trinity is played out, and finding groups isn’t fun with it.

However I think GW2 could do more with group gameplay. Right now group play is basically focusing fire, and helping the occasional downed player.

Champion fights are watching a bar go down.

It just feels kind of like strategy doesn’t really matter that much.

One big problem perhaps is that cause and effect feels weak. Instead of a melee character making their work count by knocking down that bad boss with their hammer… the boss just flicks up immune and tells you to DPS more or get out. In this example I’m saying that the boss shouldn’t just be a big ball of hit points that you wail on forever and kills you with super attacks. Instead, why not have a cool weakness to the boss like knockdown lasts extra seconds… you see, then they can start to build scenarios where people are doing things to make their effort focused and not just mashing through combat.

The trouble is this means a pretty large boss redesign at the very least. I’ll do it for cheap if they’re hiring, though!

I do agree with you that they should do more with group play as well as the knockdown idea ( seems pretty cool and would be fun).
+1

The Real Player.6382:

Yes there are better ways to run an instance which shave off time and deaths, but the point im getting at is that zerging with a pug group shouldnt be rewarding at all. Dungeons should require strategy to work, but the way this game is set up disallows that, because of the waypoints right next to the bosses. Yeah im all for doing strategies and what not to do a dungeon but right now in its current state, dungeons in guildwars 2 require 0 strategy to complete which gives people no joy of achievement when they finish it.
A random pug group in arah (with 0 experience) shouldnt be able to just zerg through it.

So you’re saying that people who are new to game and learning how everything fits together shouldn’t be rewarded whatsoever for their effort? How many people do you think would do the dungeons in the first place.

The rewards you do get isn’t that great and don’t forget the repair bill for waypoint killing a boss… what reward are people getting that is making you feel so cheated?

TurtleofPower.5641:

The trinity is played out, and finding groups isn’t fun with it.

However I think GW2 could do more with group gameplay. Right now group play is basically focusing fire, and helping the occasional downed player.

Champion fights are watching a bar go down.

It just feels kind of like strategy doesn’t really matter that much.

One big problem perhaps is that cause and effect feels weak. Instead of a melee character making their work count by knocking down that bad boss with their hammer… the boss just flicks up immune and tells you to DPS more or get out. In this example I’m saying that the boss shouldn’t just be a big ball of hit points that you wail on forever and kills you with super attacks. Instead, why not have a cool weakness to the boss like knockdown lasts extra seconds… you see, then they can start to build scenarios where people are doing things to make their effort focused and not just mashing through combat.

QFT. Maybe they should make more of the combo system to enhance group play and fighting bosses.

Long story short if you want a holy trinity game, don’t play GW2, its that simple. They aren’t marketing the game to holy trinity players, and have already shown that they have no problem cutting off sales completely, so I don’t think they care much about players not buying the game because of it. They have far more players because of what they did…there is a reason this game sold #1 in several different areas in the world.

Greetings folks!

Caiden Merlinus of Tarnished Coast here! I’d like to add my view.

I’m sorry to say, OP and some others, but if you have people wiping on every single boss, just having to waypoint back before he resets so you can down them, then I am afraid you need more practice and planning. I’ve run every dungeon but one on explorable, and this has only happened maybe two or three times. And even in that situation, we never zerg the bosses. We wipe, reset, and try again as a group. It’s more effective and keeps the repair bill low.

As for WvW, sure I’ll give you that it can be a zerg fest at times. But there are plans and ways to stop reinforcements with commando groups for example, cut off supplies and apply pressure for distraction. Going in with one mind set will not work. However WvW is a topic for another time!

Back to Dungeons, don’t go in expecting you already know how to fight. You may, but not in this dungeon. Are you using Blinds and Controls to prevent the bosses moves from doing things? Where are your combo fields and what do they do? All sorts of things should be known before tackling these dungeons, designed to be difficult.

Practice, observe and learn. Just my view and opinion. Take from it what you will!

The problem the OP outlined has to do with the players not being organized, not with the removal of the trinity. I have had boss encounters that worked out beautifully with players naturally forming roles such as tank, dps and support (healing and reviving).

In one specific example, I saw Eles tanking better than other classes. I absolutely love not relying on an egomaniacal monk to arrive and be persuaded to join my group before I take on the boss.

For hardcore dungeons you really need to rely on communication with your team – the zerg effect occurs when players aren’t communicating and just rush in. GW2 supports both encounters and places the emphasis on skill rather than class.

I’m with caiden

PPson.7042:

Long story short if you want a holy trinity game, don’t play GW2, its that simple. They aren’t marketing the game to holy trinity players, and have already shown that they have no problem cutting off sales completely, so I don’t think they care much about players not buying the game because of it. They have far more players because of what they did…there is a reason this game sold #1 in several different areas in the world.

Diablo 3 sold #1 and we all know how that game went.
But besides that im just saying there are ways that they could improve the game. They dont need the holy trinity but just making grouping and dungeons better.

@mojo im talking about end game instances. I expected that early game instances were suppose to be easy so players were able to get experience running them.

my Major point is that zerging is such a brainless strategy and it should not work.

Here’s the thing guys…

The holy trinity basically means that there is one group dynamic/tactic that the entire game is built upon. And that tactic is called “tank and spank.” This tactic works in almost every single situation in a holy trinity game.

Removing the holy trinity simply means that there is no longer one tactic that will work EVERYWHERE. You now need to actively try to find strategies to use.

It does NOT mean that everything turns into a zerg. Everything turns into a zerg when no one is organized…this can happen with or without the holy trinity. BUT the holy trinity does make it easier to organize because everyone knows what they are supposed to do in any situation. And I’m pretty sure that’s why it was implemented in the first place…to facilitate organization.

But honestly, I’m happy that the trinity is gone. It’s like the training wheels have finally been removed. Yes, sometimes things get chaotic because people don’t know what to do…but that’s because you actually have to TALK and work out a plan. You can’t just run in and do your pre-defined actions anymore and expect success out of any situation.

Holy trinity is horrible, but that’s not to say ANet doesn’t need to improve though because they definitely do. For example, dying in 1 shot to unavoidable damage is never fun. This is still new, so I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt and gonna say it will get much better.

With the combination of high mob damage and the lack of a “traditional” mitigation and healing situation, it makes all classes interrupts, stuns, dazes, blinds, and other CC much more important.

Other games have tried to give DPS more tricks to mitigate damage, but in many (but not all of course) cases, those abilities don’t get used and it still ends up with the pressure on the tank and/or healers.

Dungeons are not without their problems.

Without the control provided by a “traditional trinity”, you need to have a lot more coordination and leadership. Voice chat helps immensely, and is very unlikely to be used outside of guild or alliance runs. My previous game was D&D Online (Turbine did a lot wrong, but this is something they did right), and it had built-in voice chat, which made coordinating PUG runs MUCH easier.

There are, at present, too many “cheap tricks” that do nothing but cause unnecessary deaths and frustration. The exploding poison spiders in Twilight Arbor, for instance.

With a knowledgeable and well run group, it can be smooth and not too costly to run. Most runs outside of tuned, organized, and well run guild groups aren’t that way. It simply costs too much to learn a dungeon, especially in a PUG. The rewards typically aren’t worth the cost.

It seems to me that many people are throwing the term “zerg” out as if what is going on is some kind of mindless bum-rush by players that have no idea what they are doing.

While I am sure that some people rush in blindly, what I see are individuals working together synergistically. Just because you can’t easily define exactly who is doing what, and who is contributing what in a pie-chart or spreadsheet-style battle formula, doesn’t mean that players are just flinging themselves into the battle without thought or consideration for strategy and tactics.

If “zerg” means “there are no specific roles and methods being used in rote fashion over and over to overcome specific challenges”, then I’m loving me some zerg. I love the challenge of getting into an event and figuring out – on the fly – how I can best contribute, and how I can make it as easy as possible to get others involved in attack combinations.

I would rather have a group of players playing together than two players playing together, and 3 others sitting back doing nothing but dps. I mean, in WoW, as a dps, all you really did was maybe sheep or sap something, then laid into it with damaging attacks. I like how this game emphasizes buffs/debuffs and synergy between the various abilities different classes have. In WoW I couldn’t lay down a field of fire for a hunter to shoot through and have it affect their abilities. This beats a healer/tank dynamic any day of the week for me.

I agree with caiden as well although I would like to see a little more natural synergy in dungeon groups.

I am on the fence about the removal of a healer from the game. I have personally experienced how terrible dungeons are… especially “explore” mode. Holy cow. The sheer volumes of spiders in AC (explore) that pour at you… and with everyone in light or medium armor it was just wipe after wipe.

If you want everyone to participate in terms of doing away with “tank” “healer” “DPS” then you really need to make the content more appropriate and attainable to everyone. Not making it…. easier per say… but like having it so that 5 of ANY class can accomplish things. (Even 5 of the SAME class for example.)

I think that the OP is on to something though because the PVP I’ve been involved in basically has a group attacking a keep/wall… and then both sides having casualties… then either you break the wall or those who die on the wall just come back and side attack the entire assault and wipe them or push them back… it feels really like “whoever controls the closest waypoint wins the fight” vs any kind of real talent or rhyme or reason to it all.

This is very true also of my first successful AC experience… after several failed wipe fests when we fought the “Romulo & Juliet” (snicker) encounter we were only successful because the waypoint was close enough to have a couple of people die, and then run back in to rejoin the fight.

Jester.3265:

I would rather have a group of players playing together than two players playing together, and 3 others sitting back doing nothing but dps. I mean, in WoW, as a dps, all you really did was maybe sheep or sap something, then laid into it with damaging attacks. I like how this game emphasizes buffs/debuffs and synergy between the various abilities different classes have. In WoW I couldn’t lay down a field of fire for a hunter to shoot through and have it affect their abilities. This beats a healer/tank dynamic any day of the week for me.

Using combo fields doesn’t require any thought. You just hit the skills you would normally use when they come off CD. Any combos/finishers are shared by all classes along with buffs/debuffs. How is streamlining every class better?

I think this should be safe to say. Whether the holy trinity is good or not it does not matter. Right now i think we can all agree on that dungeons and groups need some working on, as well as the waypoint system in dungeons.

Maybe they just need to introduce some sort of tutorial mode for the first dungeon or something that would teach people how to play as a group in GW2.

FadeXF.5460:

This is very true also of my first successful AC experience… after several failed wipe fests when we fought the “Romulo & Juliet” (snicker) encounter we were only successful because the waypoint was close enough to have a couple of people die, and then run back in to rejoin the fight.

…never underestimate the power of the boulders.

Creslin.1758:

Here’s the thing guys…

The holy trinity basically means that there is one group dynamic/tactic that the entire game is built upon. And that tactic is called “tank and spank.” This tactic works in almost every single situation in a holy trinity game.

Removing the holy trinity simply means that there is no longer one tactic that will work EVERYWHERE. You now need to actively try to find strategies to use.

It does NOT mean that everything turns into a zerg. Everything turns into a zerg when no one is organized…this can happen with or without the holy trinity. BUT the holy trinity does make it easier to organize because everyone knows what they are supposed to do in any situation. And I’m pretty sure that’s why it was implemented in the first place…to facilitate organization.

But honestly, I’m happy that the trinity is gone. It’s like the training wheels have finally been removed. Yes, sometimes things get chaotic because people don’t know what to do…but that’s because you actually have to TALK and work out a plan. You can’t just run in and do your pre-defined actions anymore and expect success out of any situation.

+1

I couldn’t agree more.