Guild Wars 2

I’ve been playing GW2 since launch and my opinion is starting to solidify that it just isn’t a well designed game. It has some really sharp systems, but it all falls apart under an extremely shoddy execution. It’s really no wonder the game had a massive falloff of players right after it launch and still struggles with player retention. HoT only made things worse.

The game is generally more frustrating than it is fun unless you enjoy the choice between running zergs or dying constantly from things you can’t even see coming. There’s a reason why other MMOs design challenging content in an organized way instead of just trying to throw everything haphazardly into the open world.

IMO, there is almost nothing fun about any of the HoT maps.

edit: I feel the need to emphasize in my first post what my biggest actual complaint is, and it’s something that touches nearly every aspect of the game – the combat is frenetic and chaotic to a fault. It consistently lacks proper strategic depth and dramatically over-emphasizes dodging and general reflexes (which is a lot of the reason there’s a persistent offensive > defense issue in the game) . I find myself going from full health to downed state from attacks I can’t even see far, far too often, and I don’t even run a full glass build.

the biggest problem of GW2 is that there is not really anything to do, they don’t do quests so any activity is gone and renown hearts are done within 10 minutes, making an entire area useless to be.
another problem is that DE’s are so repetitive that it pretty much makes WoW generic quests seem fun to do in comparison, not a good sign.

now they do have the PS and LW but beside S1 it’s still all singleplayer based, not bad in particular but when you have to do everything with a tunnel vision type gameplay it removes the whole “open world” feeling.

then you have the battle system, way to chaotic and absolutely not made for controlled battles.
this game is suppose to be an RPG, it’s more likely a fusion of ninety nine nights and an auto pilot, not controlled at all.

and what about character customization, i am not looking at making your character look awesome or the wardrobe choice.
what i am talking about is the skill choice, that weapons have their own skills is good but not being able to have any choice at all, not even being able to shift skills position, is just a horrible design choice.

i used to see GW as an example, a game design to see in more games.
however, GW2 has proved that it’s better to ignore such drastic changes and stay within the what older ideas.

quests are not bad if done right, the battle system can use allot more control, DE’s are bad the way it’s done so things like “pull a string” can be a solution to stop sudden annoyances.

Einlanzer.1627:

IMO, there is almost nothing fun about any of the HoT maps.

Core GW2 is extremely well designed game, and I enjoy it still a lot even after spending years playing it. The HoT, however, is not.

sorudo.9054:

then you have the battle system, way to chaotic and absolutely not made for controlled battles.
this game is suppose to be an RPG, it’s more likely a fusion of ninety nine nights and an auto pilot, not controlled at all.

This is my biggest problem, actually. The combat is frenetic to a fault. There is not enough room for any sort of strategic play. Mob AI is poor and so they compensate by giving them frustrating CC and making them hit like a truck, which much of the time you can’t see coming or have no way to avoid. The only good defense is active dodging, which makes you want to build your stats around offense.

The second biggest problem I have relates to the design of the HoT maps. They are simply too sprawling and too complex to be enjoyable, IMO.

I dunno man. It’s been more than a year and I’m still having fun in PvE, mostly solo/PUGing, all over Tyria and HoT.

HoT features complex maps because unlike other MMOs, you’re meant to legitimately explore your way through them. GW2’s true endgame has always been the journey through it, which a lot of traditional MMO players simply don’t understand (rush to the endgame grind).

HoT is more difficult because unlike other MMOs which balance open world/solo content for the worst of the player base, GW2 was never intended to be easy. In GW2’s original beta, special attacks were dodge or die moments and damage in general was much higher. For a taste, you basically have to play naked while in +5 level areas starting from level 10. It was all nerfed however because putting up a wall right at the gate would have been bad business. Instead, ArenaNet attempted to train those players by increasing the difficulty over time with every major content update and if you look back, people have been complaining the entire time (karka, drake puddles, aetherblade banner of death, etc). HoT is basically back up to normal. It will likely get nerfed eventually however because it’s bad for business. They could for example make it feel like you’re actually leveling by actually making your mastery level matter, limited of course.

sorudo.9054:

another problem is that DE’s are so repetitive that it pretty much makes WoW generic quests seem fun to do in comparison, not a good sign.

Events are actually meant to be the alternative to generic quests while the personal/living story is meant to be the “epic”/story quests. Hearts are the result of traditional MMO players not knowing what to do without quests pointing the way, which is why they don’t exists in later maps.

Einlanzer.1627:

IMO, there is almost nothing fun about any of the HoT maps.

I agree. But ironically I think they suck because they are like other games; pointless difficulty, pointless point systems that end up being required to complete the game, and frivolous nonsense regarding the story. Zhaitan’s reach spanned an entire continent and most of the known world of Tyria at the time. Mordremoth couldn’t even get out of the jungle but was supposedly stronger?

We could say that Mordremoth destroyed Lion’s Arch through Scarlett but honestly I don’t know, a horde of undead and undoing an entire continent versus just building a weird puppet in the mountains and punching kitten in a city … I just don’t know man. I just don’t know.

GW2 is this weird combination of directed behavior and directionless sandbox; it just isn’t good at either. You need to craft X, Y, Z or do a build / rotation of A, B, C to be considered in the group aspect so that’s just straight out falling in line unless you’re a “respectable name” and then at the same time the game says “play as you want” and you can just hang around Queensdale until you’re 80.

The sandbox problem is that you design kittentons of content no one every sees and more than half of your players couldn’t give two kittens about and then the directed problem is that players feel pressured to do specific things in specific ways as they’re peers somewhat reject them on the sandbox element. Megaserver was created out of the reality that so few people visited certain maps while so many clumped into certain ones causing issues.

I just wish gw2 had picked a side. Either it’s truly sandbox and ascended nonsense should never have existed or it’s truly directional and you have to pretty much follow the story line, get all the skills in the content to proceed, and have a clear understanding that this is a true requirement to play.

One or the other …

Einlanzer.1627:

…my opinion is …that [GW2] …isn’t a well designed game. It has some really sharp systems, but it all falls apart under an extremely shoddy execution.

Without being specific, it’s hard to know if this is a matter of your preference or whether some things are really broken as badly as implied. There’s no question that ANet tends to hype stuff that isn’t that interesting and tends to forget to hype the truly impressive aspects. And there’s no question that plenty of elements aren’t as good as even ANet thinks they should have been.

But that’s very different from “extremely shoddy execution”.

Einlanzer.1627:

It’s really no wonder the game had a massive falloff of players right after it launch and still struggles with player retention. HoT only made things worse.

I wonder about that, since there’s no evidence it had any more drop in activity than any other game in the history of paid MMOs. There’s actually some evidence that GW2 increased its “concurrence” at several points.

As for HOT, there’s evidence that it increased sales tremendously. Of course people left, but that happens with every expansion to every MMO: not everyone likes the direction the expac takes the game. The question is: how many veterans left compared to other games and how many of those will never return; that also has to be evaluated against how many new players HoT attracted.

Einlanzer.1627:

The game is generally more frustrating than it is fun unless you enjoy the choice between running zergs or dying constantly from things you can’t even see coming. There’s a reason why other MMOs design challenging content in an organized way instead of just trying to throw everything haphazardly into the open world.

The game is generally frustrating for you. That’s a shame, but I’m not sure why you think that everyone feels the same. I like the personal challenge of trying to stay alive in the new zones and, once I figured out a few tricks, it’s not hard at all.

Einlanzer.1627:

IMO, there is almost nothing fun about any of the HoT maps.

Again, that’s a shame. For you. That doesn’t mean the game is bad; it only means you don’t like it.

I’m sympathetic (honestly ), because there are a number of things about HoT that annoy me and some things from the core game that got worse. Plus, I’d really like everyone to see the same fun things I see and enjoy the game as much as I do.

However, one size doesn’t fit all. Any change ANet makes is going to make new some new fans and annoy some others.

The problem is we all have such high expectations of GW2, party that’s the fault of ANet and their own over-hype train. Problem is, what was delivered was very average and the content not long lasting at all. All that remains is the grind; that isn’t going to change, it’s too late for that 3+ years on we have what we have and the game will never be great. Still worth playing but it I doubt future expansions will generate as many sales of we just get the same sort of poor offering.

Just wanted to chime in as among the people who still enjoy playing GW2 + HoT never seem to write up a “Thanks for an awesome game” in this forum. We’re mostly busy having fun.

Suffice to say, I’m actually one of those folks who returned to GW2 because of the improvements (forgot the patch date, but it was when they added First Person view and made the PVE last mission solo’able) — which made me want to progress to HoT.

Honestly, I think GW2 is still fun and I consider it to be the “home game” now.

That is, one game to return to after completing other non-multiplayer open-world games (ie. Skyrim, GTA5, Fallout etc.)

Just my 2 cents

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

As for HOT, there’s evidence that it increased sales tremendously.

In the quarterly earnings report, NCSoft reports that GW2 made about $13.5M more in the HoT debut quarter than in other recent quarters, and “other sales” (i.e., gem store) were reported as stable. At the minimum $50 price, that’s less than 300,000 sales. Fudge for both retail sales (where Anet gets wholesale money only) and for $75 and $100 packages. On the face of it, that’s about a 75% increase in sales. However, those are not great numbers for an XPac. That’s probably why NCSoft is reported to have called HoT sales disappointing.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

As for HOT, there’s evidence that it increased sales tremendously.

In the quarterly earnings report, NCSoft reports that GW2 made about $13.5M more in the HoT debut quarter than in other recent quarters, and “other sales” (i.e., gem store) were reported as stable. At the minimum $50 price, that’s less than 300,000 sales. Fudge for both retail sales (where Anet gets wholesale money only) and for $75 and $100 packages. On the face of it, that’s about a 75% increase in sales. However, those are not great numbers for an XPac. That’s probably why NCSoft is reported to have called HoT sales disappointing.

A few points on this.

1 – HoT is not always $50. I got it for $28 (with S&H). Remember they do have retail versions and those were/are heavily discounted at retailers (they didnt sell very well I think) and later on Ebay and other places. I remember seeing it as low as $25 at Best Buy.

The problem with HoT is that it isnt very good. Just more of the same old same and is just a huge grind. I came back to GW2 for HoT after not playing for about 1.5 years… only to find that there is still nothing to do… I stopped when it became a grind before and now… just 1 week in, I am spending more time reading the forum than playing the game because I dont wanna go grind a HoT map or go kill another world boss for no reward.

2 – They got spanked that quarter because their entire net profit was down about 32% year over year. Supposedly it is due to new project spending… but in the business world this is almost always a lie so no one really knows. What we do know is that one of its major holders sold its entire stake which was about 15% of NCSoft because they wanted more information on executive salaries and company spending… and NCSoft didnt want to disclose the info which is not a good sign (recall they are not a US company… different rules over there).

The game is fun. The mechanics are not nearly up to e-sport levels.

The insane amount of polished well telegraphed mechanics are supremely difficult to make. It’s why moba characters have a handful of abilities. The AI in PvE is barely competent. HoT AI just got more CC. Good AI would have the PvE meta closer to the WvW meta. Pure glass groups should just wipe regardless of skill. That includes map events.

The game is fun, but the mechanics are not tight. They are very gimmicky. People think timing invul frames is skill when it just means they can watch for flashes and dodge.

The game is alright. I’ve certainly seen worse. I.E. buy to play grind-for-months super glitchy and buggy borefests.

If I were to pick the place with the biggest flaws, it would definitely be the story.

#1: As much as Woodenpotatoes loves the lore, I just see it as generic mystic babble. It isn’t some kind of insight or metaphor for the nature of humanity or the universe, or anything of the sort. It isn’t a thought experiment on how things would be in a different world. It is not provoking in any way. All the lore consists of is “generic fantasy trope does generic fantasy thing to other generic fantasy trope”. No, the Sylvari are not interesting. They are green elf children

#2: The story isn’t reinforced thematically by gameplay in any way. For a world under siege by nigh unstoppable forces of nature mass producing instruments of death every waking second, it certainly seems like a pleasant jolly jaunt exploring the place. Other than the story occasionally saying there’s a gigantic threat looming over us, there’s nothing that seems pressing or urgent. The elder dragons don’t seem like any more of a threat than the wildlife around Tyria. Right now, most players are more terrified of Chak than the elder dragons.

#3: The characters are dull or annoying. I say this seriously: if you were to kill off all of the A and B iconics, I wouldn’t care. I hear that it is a bit better in the HoT story (which I haven’t done yet, see above: the story is bad), but pre-hot most of what they do is stand around plainly saying plot relevant things to us or themselves. If we’re lucky we get a line or two quipping about something. We don’t have a good supporting cast, but we also don’t have a good villain, either.

#4: The presentation isn’t the best. For the personal story we had NPCs standing side by side talking. For LWS1 and S2 we had NPCs somewhere on the map saying something. For HoT we at least get some cutscenes. But I’ll be frank: I’d be fine with a gigantic wall of text if it was done right.

So to recap, we have an uninteresting world filled with uninteresting people that you (barely) learn about in uninteresting ways, and as far as gameplay is considered the story might as well not exist. The reason why I pick on the story so much is because a good story is an extremely powerful driving force in gaming, and it will keep people coming back even if they don’t like playing the game anymore.

Personally, I think GW2 is a much better game now than when it was released. I struggled to enjoy it for the first 6-8 months. I really wanted to like it, but it just didn’t have what I loved so much about the original guild wars. Fast forward to HoT. I bought it, having not played GW2 for almost 2 years, and found the whole game to be much overhauled for the better. I can’t stop playing now. There is so much content, I will probably never complete everything there is to do.

That said, of course it’s not perfect. There are some things that could be better, most notably the dungeons. I feel like I missed the era of the dungeons. The pendulum swung too far on these. A reconnect to your map feature is also very much needed, and a build template/saving/sharing feature would be fantastic.

The HoT maps were frustrating for me at first, I died a lot and got lost, but I modified my build to survive, and slowly learned how to get around. Now it’s not so bad. PVE stands for player vs. environment after all, and the maps are the largest component of the environment. Stands to reason that they should be more challenging in the higher end content. I don’t mind content being “locked” behind masteries. As I have stated before, it reminds me of old school gaming concepts used in Zelda and Metroid where you had to unlock skills and items to advance in the map (I.e. The hook shot, bombs, and double jump). It gives you a sense of progression without power creep and raising the level cap with each expansion. I love the addition of gliding to the core game, too.

I don’t think the game is as bad as OP is making it out to be. I admit I left GW2 for 2 years when FF XIV 2.0 came out, but HoT brought me back and personally I think the meta events from the maps are a lot more enjoyable than any other open world content I’ve experienced. It requires people to actually communicate, organize and form a strategy. Only at a basic level sure, but every other MMO I’ve played does not have any of that for open world content. It’s just mindless zerg.

As far as running through the maps solo I am at a loss as to how it is overly frustrating for some. I have run through the maps on all 9 of my characters now, one of each class in order to master all of the elite specializations and while I died a few times it was purely due to my own poor judgement. Definitely not invisible attacks. I needed to ask for help for hero points several times, but this is an MMO. I’m not going to complain about needing other people to play with. Also, all of my character run zerker and most of them are in exotic, so again not too challenging to stay alive.

What GW2 still lacks is good dungeon and raid variety. It is very limited in those areas compared to other MMOs, but it seems like they’re at least starting to come together. Still nowhere remotely close to FF XIV in comparison, but they are heading in the right direction now unlike before.

Ultimately I really enjoy the meta events in the new HoT maps. I find them much more fun and entertaining than typical open world content.

I agree with you to an extent. Yes, a few systems were very shoddily executed, namely pvp and wvw.

I love the HoT maps. Theyre the only open world I can stomach because theyre not faceroll easy or dead bland.

Again I agree with you half way. The gutting of the trinity system led anet to the one we have now, dodging aka active defense. I think its lightyears better then afk tanking with a pocket healer. Granted healing and tanking in other games isnt always easy, but the active nature of the combat system in GW2 is pretty well done imo considering how many hurdles they had to overcome.

In retrospect, I think zergs are killing this game. In pve they allow players to stack in one corner and burn through a bosses hp, effectively eliminating any challenge or threat that boss poses. In wvw, at first stability was godmode because you could stack a high duration in a melee train and roll through anything with eyes closed. Then it got nerfed which would be fine if it was 10v10, but the amount of cc a zerg spits out can melt anyone without a teleport.

tldr; zergs are actively destroying this game by bypassing mechanics in pve and favoring population in wvw.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

As for HOT, there’s evidence that it increased sales tremendously.

In the quarterly earnings report, NCSoft reports that GW2 made about $13.5M more in the HoT debut quarter than in other recent quarters, and “other sales” (i.e., gem store) were reported as stable. At the minimum $50 price, that’s less than 300,000 sales. Fudge for both retail sales (where Anet gets wholesale money only) and for $75 and $100 packages. On the face of it, that’s about a 75% increase in sales. However, those are not great numbers for an XPac. That’s probably why NCSoft is reported to have called HoT sales disappointing.

A 13.5 million dollar increase in income is a LOT more than 300,000 sales. Firstly there is about a 50% margin in the retail chain. Then there is the cost of producing the packages and the marketing cost. Then of course not every sale is racking up $50.

I would bet this is a lot closer to 1 million unit sales.

Marthkus.4615:

The game is fun. The mechanics are not nearly up to e-sport levels.

The insane amount of polished well telegraphed mechanics are supremely difficult to make. It’s why moba characters have a handful of abilities. The AI in PvE is barely competent. HoT AI just got more CC. Good AI would have the PvE meta closer to the WvW meta. Pure glass groups should just wipe regardless of skill. That includes map events.

The game is fun, but the mechanics are not tight. They are very gimmicky. People think timing invul frames is skill when it just means they can watch for flashes and dodge.

The community has shown that encounters that require thought and/or skill are too difficult for the average player. There are players who think getting from one end of the map to another is too hard.

Glass Hand.7306:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

As for HOT, there’s evidence that it increased sales tremendously.

In the quarterly earnings report, NCSoft reports that GW2 made about $13.5M more in the HoT debut quarter than in other recent quarters, and “other sales” (i.e., gem store) were reported as stable. At the minimum $50 price, that’s less than 300,000 sales. Fudge for both retail sales (where Anet gets wholesale money only) and for $75 and $100 packages. On the face of it, that’s about a 75% increase in sales. However, those are not great numbers for an XPac. That’s probably why NCSoft is reported to have called HoT sales disappointing.

A 13.5 million dollar increase in income is a LOT more than 300,000 sales. Firstly there is about a 50% margin in the retail chain. Then there is the cost of producing the packages and the marketing cost. Then of course not every sale is racking up $50.

I would bet this is a lot closer to 1 million unit sales.

A million copies of HoT at the 50% retail markup you’re referring to would be $25M. If everyone bought retail, the max with the observed increase in revenue would be ~540,000 copies. It would also mean that no one bought the $50, $75 and $100 digital versions from ANet. Either there were a lot of liars or there were a lot of people who prepurchased and said so on the forums.

While we don’t know the actual number sold in Q4, close to 1M is hopelessly optimistic. Just do the math.

Profit margins on games range between 15% and 35%. They are not 50%, not even for digital. Remember there is a lot more going on than just the devs. there is a marketing department, managers, execs, administration etc. MMO’s have a higher running cost than normal games which is why they are usually supplemented with monthly fees.

I would estimate GW2 margins to be about 20%.

What you guys are not considering is that not all of that $13m is HoT sales exclusively. It does not actually say that the money is from HoT alone. What likely happened is the expansion brought a lot of players back (like myself) and some probably spend money on gems and gold and such. 300k sounds plausible but this is not really that important. The problems with MMO’s is not immediate sales but retention. If the income drops back to the old levels then it basically means that HoT failed to garner growth.