Guild Wars 2

How do you folks feel the new heal will harm condition builds further in WvW by being able to remove 3 more conditions now?

It removed a set type of condition it still dose not remove any type of slow and root it dose not get bleed and burning it dose not brake stuns.

In my case I main an Engineer, more specifically a condition damage one.

I am curious how this will hurt conditions engineers for example, with every player in the game now being able to cleanse the damage from pistol #2, pistol #3, elixir gun #3, grenade #5, bomb #3, and tool kit #3.

As engineers for example, we only have the choice of P/P, P/S or Rifle, that is it. The first too are pure condition weapons. As well as the many kit skills. This could really negate a very large portion of a great many builds. That is my concern.

coglin.1867:

In my case I main an Engineer, more specifically a condition damage one.

I am curious how this will hurt conditions engineers for example, with every player in the game now being able to cleanse the damage from pistol #2, pistol #3, elixir gun #3, grenade #5, bomb #3, and tool kit #3.

As engineers for example, we only have the choice of P/P, P/S or Rifle, that is it. The first too are pure condition weapons. As well as the many kit skills. This could really negate a very large portion of a great many builds. That is my concern.

That is the strongest build for eng atm so i guess most ppl are running it and most ppl who do not play eng and some that do will call that build op in wvw settings on top of that its only one spell that works once every 30 mins at best with a easy to hit stun time (the main thing you should be aiming to stun in a fight) so i will mean Eng mainly your build will have to play with a bit more skill and not more of the faces roll like play where its all about hitting skill as fast as you can.

A group of 5 all using this same heal can AoE cleanse constantly. The new runes do not work in any condition builds favor.

And I do not feel you are very familiar with the engineer profession if you are suggesting a condition build is a face roll.

coglin.1867:

A group of 5 all using this same heal can AoE cleanse constantly. The new runes do not work in any condition builds favor.

And I do not feel you are very familiar with the engineer profession if you are suggesting a condition build is a face roll.

If your fighting a group of 5 as less then 5 you should lose and they should be able to keep most of these condition off of them self.
A group of 5 gurds can removed 3 condition and have aoe heal on at least one of there skill dose this make this group the best in the game? Its not because we would see it all the time in a WvW setting.

Added note i call it face rolling is talking about not spreading out your ability well that would be the only way to make this new heal skill as effect as it could be. If one person use it it only removes these 4 condition types at the time but after that it will not remove them for another 30 sec so you must do more then hit your ability back to back and bate the heal.

So your arguing that this will not effect condition builds negatively? Because that was my point.

coglin.1867:

So your arguing that this will not effect condition builds negatively? Because that was my point.

Yes it should not effect condition builds.

The only damaging conditions are:
-confusion, which is rare outside of Perplexity,
-bleed, which is not cleansed by this skill,
-burning, which is not cleansed by this skill,
-poison, which does very little damage,
-torment, which is rare in its use, and
-fear, which isn’t always a damage condition, is very rare, and isn’t cleansed by this skill.

Absolute highest condition damage obtainable, disregarding food and maintenance, is 1671. This requires full ascended, exotics filling the gaps, condition damage runes, and malign infusions. Let’s round this up to 1700 for convenience.
With 1700 condition damage, you deal:
127 DPS per stack of Bleed
254 DPS with Poison
753 DPS with Burning
385 DPT per stack of Confusion in PvE, 192 DPT per stack in PvP/WvW
95 DPS per stack of Torment on a stationary target, 191 DPS per stack on a mobile target

I’m most familiar with Engineers, so I’m going to use a sample pistols/grenades build that gets 100% poison uptime, ~15 bleeds, ~50% burning uptime, and 2 confusion for 3 seconds with 15s cd. I’m assuming this in WvW, and saying that a person will activate 1 skill per second (obviously, that varies a lot depending on situation).

Case A: Damage in 10 seconds to single target, no cleansing of any sort
(10s)(254 DPS) = 2540 Poison Damage
(15 stacks)(10s)(127 DPS) = 19050 Bleed Damage
(5s)(753 DPS) = 3756 Burning Damage
(3s)(1 tick per s)(2 stacks)(385 DPT) = 2310 Confusion Damage
Total condition damage dealt: 27656 Damage

Now, I’m assuming that poison uptime is reduced to 30% and that confusion damage is negated. Keep in mind, you can usually apply poison a lot faster than they can cleanse it. The 30% is an underestimation.

Case B: Damage in 10 seconds to single target, one use of ability
(3s)(254 DPS) = 762 Poison Damage
(15 stacks)(10s)(127 DPS) = 19050 Bleed Damage
(5s)(753 DPS) = 3756 Burning Damage
(0s)(1 tick per s)(2 stacks)(385 DPT) = 0 Confusion Damage
Total condition damage dealt: 23568 Damage

Case B deals 85% of the damage of case A. However,
-The 30% poison uptime is likely a huge understatement.
-This is only valid if the target had no cleanses whatsoever in case A, and if the new skill was their only cleanse in case B. Every cleanse they have reduces the comparative impact of the new skill.
-The cleanse can only happen once every 30 seconds. This was an examination of 10 seconds. Therefore, you will deal higher damage on average than 85% of potential maximum.

EDIT: Disclaimer: These are very very ballpark figures. They aren’t especially accurate. You will likely apply more conditions than above, and your target will likely remove conditions more than once. These are meant to serve as a quick example, not a thorough investigation.

Sylentir.8913:

-confusion, which is rare outside of Perplexity,

You say this and suggest you know a bit about engineers. So you must know that a very popular build uses static shot, pry bar, and concussion bomb.

Sylentir.8913:

-poison, which does very little damage

My pistol #2 does 3,322 poison damage if not cleansed, debuffs heals (great for guardians in particular) and reduces endurance regen.

The new heal will effect that.

coglin.1867:

Sylentir.8913:

-confusion, which is rare outside of Perplexity,

You say this and suggest you know a bit about engineers. So you must know that a very popular build uses static shot, pry bar, and concussion bomb.

Yes, I am aware of that. Compare the number of maintained stacks of Confusion on the next champion mob you see to the maintained stacks of Bleed. Confusion tends to be applied for short times, has low uptime, and moderate to long cooldowns on the abilities. In contrast, bleeds are regularly applied for several times longer with shorter cooldowns, and I have yet to see a non-perplexity condition build that fails to maintain 100% uptime on bleed.

Sylentir.8913:

Yes, I am aware of that. Compare the number of maintained stacks of Confusion on the next champion mob you see to the maintained stacks of Bleed.

I am concerned about how this skill will effect condition build damage in WvW, not PvE, sorry if I was unclear on that. I thought the tittle inferred that, as it is no concern to condition builds in PvE

coglin.1867:

Sylentir.8913:

-poison, which does very little damage

My pistol #2 does 3,322 poison damage if not cleansed, debuffs heals (great for guardians in particular) and reduces endurance regen.

The new heal will effect that.

Um, how does it deal that much damage? If every shot hit a single target, it would apply 10s total of poison to that target. That isn’t 3222 damage by my math.

Furthermore, how does it reduce endurance regen? That’s a property of weakness, not poison.

Finally, how are you actually hitting every shot? That thing has the aim of a drunken hobo.

coglin.1867:

Sylentir.8913:

Yes, I am aware of that. Compare the number of maintained stacks of Confusion on the next champion mob you see to the maintained stacks of Bleed.

I am concerned about how this skill will effect condition build damage in WvW, not PvE, sorry if I was unclear on that. I thought the tittle inferred that, as it is no concern to condition builds in PvE

I used champion mobs as an easy way to see how often the skills are used. Players tend to die too fast to notice maintained stacks. The rate of application is still similar.

coglin.1867:

I am curious how this will hurt conditions engineers for example, with every player in the game now being able to cleanse the damage from pistol #2, pistol #3, elixir gun #3, grenade #5, bomb #3, and tool kit #3.

It will either change nothing (in case of people not using those skills), or make the targets easier to kill (due to weaker healing). You have nothing to worry about.

I wonder if the mesmer trait Mender’s Purity affects Antitoxin spray and if it increases the heal if it removes a condition that Antitoxin can’t..

Yup, my mistake on endurance regeneration.

If i have to explain to you how to land your skills, we need to make a different thread for that.

And my pry bar and concussion bomb confusion last 10s. Maybe we see it differently, but I do not consider that a short duration.
And your correct, it doesn’t do 3,322 poison damage it is 3425. Thats is only at 50% condition duration with 10 points in a condition duration line and say, rare veggie pizza. I personally run 100% condition duration.

coglin.1867:

Yup, my mistake on endurance regeneration.

If i have to explain to you how to land your skills, we need to make a different thread for that.

And your correct, it doesn’t do 3,322 poison damage it is 3425. Thats is only at 50% condition duration with 10 points in a condition duration line and say, rare veggie pizza. I personally run 100% condition duration.

Thanks, I forgot to factor in any condition duration. If you’re running 100%, then you would also deal double bleed damage. The fact that it isn’t massive impact still stands. You can also shoot your volley 3 times per one of their heal without any kind of cooldown reduction. Only one of your 3 volleys would be reduced in damage.

And I’m quite serious on the landing poison dart volley. That skill’s attack spread is bizarre. I honestly do not believe you are capable of landing more than half its shots on a moving target outside of melee range. It fires randomly in an arc the size of the FT autoattack, for goodness’ sake.

Sylentir.8913:

And I’m quite serious on the landing poison dart volley. That skill’s attack spread is bizarre. I honestly do not believe you are capable of landing more than half its shots on a moving target outside of melee range.

You need to go search the engineer forums, there are two well known techniques that have been around near a year that explain how not to miss. Sorry, As far as I knew it is pretty common knowledge so I thought you were being sarcastic. But this is geting off topic.

Astralporing.1957:

It will either change nothing (in case of people not using those skills), or make the targets easier to kill (due to weaker healing). You have nothing to worry about.

You think so ? I do not see the heal being all that much lower then some of the others, but you may have a point.

Leo Paul.1659:

I wonder if the mesmer trait Mender’s Purity affects Antitoxin spray and if it increases the heal if it removes a condition that Antitoxin can’t..

Good question. I know I saw on the buf forums earlier, that the warrior trait to remove chill, cripple, and immobilize was being reported as not working with Antitoxin.

coglin.1867:

You need to go search the engineer forums, there are two well known techniques that have been around near a year that explain how not to miss. Sorry, As far as I knew it is pretty common knowledge so I thought you were being sarcastic. But this is geting off topic.

Thanks, I just did that. Can’t believe I never saw that; I constantly strafe while fighting.

Astralporing.1957:

Astralporing.1957:

It will either change nothing (in case of people not using those skills), or make the targets easier to kill (due to weaker healing). You have nothing to worry about.

You think so ? I do not see the heal being all that much lower then some of the others, but you may have a point.

It is significantly lower unless you’re cleansing a lot of conditions. I can’t log in to check the numbers at the moment, but I recall the base heal being comparable to somewhere near 2/3 the total healing of a healing turret doubletap/detonate with 3/2 the cooldown. When using it in combat during the new events, I noticed that it was significantly less effective at keeping my health up than my turret, even though my turret was incapable of removing the new DoT.

Minor edit: forum quote thingie is currently out of whack.

Yes, it will effect condition builds negatively. That is fine though, as engineers and necromancers condition builds are too strong in WvW.

According to wiki, its base heal is ~4k, plus a little under 500 per condition cleansed. It can cleanse 3 different conditions, thus healing for a max of 5.5k. Healing turret heals for a little over 5k and cleanses 2 conditions, not including the detonation. Detonation adds a water blast for 1320 health, bringing the total to 6k+. The new skill also scales worse.
So the new skill heals for ~1k less, has 3/2 of the cooldown, and requires you to be suffering significantly for it to be effective. Its removes an additional condition, but cannot remove a large number of other conditions. In short, there are very few cases where you would use the new skill over Healing Turret. I’m assuming that other professions have equally powerful healing skills.

EH, I will have to spend the evening in WvW and see how it plays out. My main concern isn’t the individual cleanse. It is when they collaborate and several have antitoxin and use it in a rotation. in small group battles for example.

coglin.1867:

EH, I will have to spend the evening in WvW and see how it plays out. My main concern isn’t the individual cleanse. It is when they collaborate and several have antitoxin and use it in a rotation. in small group battles for example.

I would wager that it would be no different than a group of engineers cycling healing turrets, or a group of guardians cycling condition-removing shouts.

I could be wrong, but it looks to be as effective as most racial healing skills. It isn’t extremely weak, but it isn’t especially strong either.

Your a lot less likely to run across a group of all engineer or a group of all guardians, then you to run a group using a skill that every player has access too.

That is true. However, the coordination required to cycle the skill wouldn’t be something you’d find outside organized groups, and organized groups can easily set up a cleanse cycle of some sort. Every class has the ability (not necessarily strong) to remove allies’ conditions.

Sylentir.8913:

That is true. However, the coordination required to cycle the skill wouldn’t be something you’d find outside organized groups, and organized groups can easily set up a cleanse cycle of some sort. Every class has the ability (not necessarily strong) to remove allies’ conditions.

In our tier one match ups, you see a very large amount of organized groups. All the crying claiming its all about population and the size of the zerg is completely inaccurate.

All that said. I spent the last 4 hours or so in WvW and as of now i couldn’t feel any difference, I doubt much of anyone is actually using this heal at the moment.