Guild Wars 2

In terms of GW2 It doesn’t really matter what tier you choose as the stopping point of vertical progression; it would have had one that was easily and trivially achieved. The GW franchise is not about chasing an ever ascending power curve. Beyond that would have been skins. You can name them as tiers if you want and that would probably be more interesting. The key post max level gear (in terms of power) at max level would be that character progression would be horizontal and we would be talking about expanding skills/abilities rather than grinding out power.

GW2 could have been a worthy successor within the franchise, but it chose to follow the typical model of VP that we see in WoW. The distinction GW2 made was that it would have a long/slow grind rather than a short/steep grind. If you must grind, I’ve come to prefer the short/steep grind as you spend a lot more time relaxing between tiers and a lot less time grinding for more power.

Raine.1394:

In terms of GW2 It doesn’t really matter what tier you choose as the stopping point of vertical progression; it would have had one that was easily and trivially achieved. The GW franchise is not about chasing an ever ascending power curve. Beyond that would have been skins. You can name them as tiers if you want and that would probably be more interesting. The key post max level gear (in terms of power) at max level would be that character progression would be horizontal and we would be talking about expanding skills/abilities rather than grinding out power. GW2 could have been a worthy successor within the franchise.

Oh, I absolutely agree. But that philosophy would’ve had to have framed the game from the earliest versions of the design, down to the number of skills and class traits. I’m just talking about how we could’ve implemented the gear tiers in the game we currently have to work with. If the dev’s truly believe that we needed something to do after Exotics to keep us interested in a “grind”, this is a solution that could very well be implemented in the near future to both adress that problem, and bring what GW2 is now more in line with the philosophy of GW1.

The sad thing is, if GW2 is copying the generic WoW model it’s not doing the best job at it, if I actually wanted it I’d play another MMO that does it much better.

Knote.2904:

The sad thing is, if GW2 is copying the generic WoW model it’s not doing the best job at it, if I actually wanted it I’d play another MMO that does it much better.

Right. At least getting geared up in WoW is a matter of doing some decently fun dungeon runs with your friends, not just farming materials in zergfests all day. And with defined class roles, once you got that gear, it was a pretty sure bet that you wouldn’t regret the decision. Here, you’re pretty much screwed if you ever want to try out a slightly different build.

Yeah, no matter how much they insist they’d always planned on vertical progression, it sure feels like they started with what they actually said during development—“Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”—and then for some reason decided to shoehorn in everything they said they weren’t going to do.

With tongue in cheek, I’d encourage Colin to resign, since the despite being the game director, the game has in just two years departed entirely from his direction.

(And with tongue not in cheek, I hope that he does, because I liked the direction he talked about two years ago, and I think he’s kittenting all over GW by taking things in the current direction.)

What ANet have done there, is they not understood.

The reason WoW has vertical progression, and how it has vertical progression, is all due to Blizzard’s ideal of constantly trying to make the player feel better about themselves. Oh, sure, their other ideal is hooking the players so they pay continue to pay their monthly subscription, but it’s not the only one. Blizzard is very, incredibly, tediously meticulous about every single tiny thing in their games being rewarding somehow, somewhere, even for no good reason if they have to do it.

It’s not about there just being something you can grind towards.

It’s about being motivated to do so.

Most MMOs motivate the players by offering better stats on new gear. Scummy and unfair, but it works. Guild Wars motivated players with shiny new looks. That worked too. Ascended weapons accomplish neither. They don’t work.

One Note Chord.5031:

this guy

Someone is a bitter fellow, aren’t they? I’m so tired of hearing these quotes out of context. Do you and your sad friends take turns posting new threads feigning disgust? You, sir, are the type of person that is poisoning the water hole, not Colin, not the other Devs. This is nothing but vile, toxic behavior that is very frequently reposted simply with the intent to troll, belittle, and revile whoever you think is at fault on that particular day. This isn’t GW1, the manifesto isn’t a religious document, and game design is an iterative process.

Frankly, I’m largely unhappy with the way they’ve implemented such tedious chores as a means to acquire Ascended weapons, but they are not unreasonably time consuming if you do it at saunter instead of a sprint. I hope they adjust the gating for armor to something like 5-7 days instead of two weeks. Each piece taking two weeks will not be fun.

However, unhappiness aside, I enjoy the option (yes, it is an option) of having Ascended items available. It is a reasonable improvement over exotic, but it is not so drastic that you cannot overcome the modest difference from a combination of player skill and class mechanics.

I still play full exotic and im not even going for ascended. I did liadri 8 orb’s and people complained about her all the time, do you think having full ascended at time would have made the difference?
no proper dodging would have.

shrug I have friends that ‘play’ WoW and the majority of their characters get from 1-80 in a single night and Bot to level their skills and farm $$ for their gear, etc.

I’d much rather a game I “play” despite it’s flaws. I don’t understand paying a subscription for a game you’re not even going to play.

I’ve started the push for Ascended. Bought my amulet the other day. working towards my rings. And collecting the supplies necessary to craft my weapon. I.. unlike most it seems.. am enjoying myself.

Genreninja.8516:

shrug I have friends that ‘play’ WoW and the majority of their characters get from 1-80 in a single night and Bot to level their skills and farm $$ for their gear, etc.

I’d much rather a game I “play” despite it’s flaws. I don’t understand paying a subscription for a game you’re not even going to play.

I’ve started the push for Ascended. Bought my amulet the other day. working towards my rings. And collecting the supplies necessary to craft my weapon. I.. unlike most it seems.. am enjoying myself.

The level cap is now ‘90’ in WoW. In the previous expansion it was 85. It is not possible to make it to level 80 in WoW in a single night. And, while some decent crafted pieces do appear on the AH for $$, you don’t typically gear up by farming gold. That would be something you grind out in instances. I have a hard time believing you have any experience with WoW, whatsoever, even through friends. But, I’m glad you are enjoying the grind in GW2—this game was designed for you.

This should be post of the year. I am 100% against gear threadmill. But this is something i may actually do (in the long term).

Its something new, its something fun. I like it!

I would only make at least the BiS armor/weapons be dropable in dungeons or by tokems at the end of the dungeon. Since im not a fan of crafting and WvW. So i could getting my gear doing what i like.

Also, new dungeons permanent to game (with new armor skins) as well as mini games and stuff. And the game would be perfect.

Great post Bad Decision Dino.

Thunderscape.3859:

This should be post of the year. I am 100% against gear threadmill. But this is something i may actually do (in the long term).

Its something new, its something fun. I like it!

I would only make at least the BiS armor/weapons be dropable in dungeons or by tokems at the end of the dungeon. Since im not a fan of crafting and WvW. So i could getting my gear doing what i like.

Also, new dungeons permanent to game (with new armor skins) as well as mini games and stuff. And the game would be perfect.

Great post Bad Decision Dino.

Glad someone read the actual post! I’m definitely all for alternate means of obtaining any of the weapons on this tier. I just figure they probably want to keep Ascended and Legendary on a certain threshold of overall effort/rarity, whether it’s through crafting or PvE or WvW.

Knote.2904:

The sad thing is, if GW2 is copying the generic WoW model it’s not doing the best job at it, if I actually wanted it I’d play another MMO that does it much better.

I completely agree.

Also

If they had Honored their ForeFathers Guild War 1 generics, they would’ve greately succeeded and Prospered.

By the way,

Success and Prosper, according to Gw2, is by the earned amount of sales $$$$$

What a Load of Kitten!!

Stats don’t matter and we’d all be a lot better off if people stopped obsessing over them so much. Especially those people who Gear-Check for dungeons. But that will only work when —> everyone stops <-- obsessing. So long as even a small portion obsesses, it sets precedent for Exclusion, and exclusion gets duplicated until it’s the Meta.

The real problem with this game’s content is not some grind, it’s the uninspiring and non-innovative fights that can be rushed through with Berserker Melee stacking and rote memory of no more than 2 “instant kill” must-dodge attacks. The AI doesn’t scale, infact the AI will often forego it’s most difficult to avoid attacks nomatter how quickly its dying simply b/c everyone stayed in Melee range or stopped moving. (spider queen, lupi, subject Alpha, even some Priests/World bosses can be face-rolled this way).

It’s a 2-way street, obsessing over gear is obsessing over gear whether you’re a proponent of B.I.S. or against the Stat grind. The real grind begins everytime we face yet another Champion who reacts, moves, and scales exactly the same as the last 100 champs we beat every single time we faced them over and over again. Real end game begins with replayable content that’s actually Replayable even without a Carrot

GW1 never saw higher tiers than what was originally in the game. So no, “GW1 devs” would not design end game gear like this.

I do agree on cosmetics and stat/skin selection though.

How GW2 original team would have made gear in this game if we went by what they said prelaunch.

Exotic- All tiers of gear would have had a minimal bonus to DPS or stats Exotic being the maximum, nothing above that. Legendary being visually stunning only.

But some of us feel that somewhere along the way someone got in there with money signs in their eyeballs and corrupted the entire team like the shadow creature in the swamp.

I emphatically agree with OP about the ‘Fabled’ tier. Easily crafted/obtained. Progresses the crafting level to 500. It makes a hell of a lot of sense.

I also agree with ascended having the mutatable stats. People should be choosing an item based on it’s appearances when they decide to go for it. Not it’s stat combinations. In fact, from here on out, I would really like any further end-game items they add to simply be consumable skins.

SonicTHI.3217:

GW1 never saw higher tiers than what was originally in the game. So no, “GW1 devs” would not design end game gear like this.

I do agree on cosmetics and stat/skin selection though.

You’re right, if we want to be purists about it. But if GW1 devs had been in charge, the game would be VERY different from its very core elements. Dealing simply with how end-game gear could fit into this game as it stands and still keep the spirit of the manifesto and the history of GW1, I think the real ideal solution would’ve skipped straight past what I labeled the “Fabled” tier, and just had Ascended items be Exotic Stats + Mutable, without the stat upgrade. But what’s done is done, and I can see the point of view that maybe Exotics were a little too quick to attain. I got most of mine shortly after hitting 80 just with the karma I’d accumulated while leveling up.

GW1 did have a fair bit of grinding when it came to the whole process of unlocking item varieties (runes, insignias, weapon hilts, etc…) that widened your selection of builds, and I think a grind from Exotic to the mutable Ascended Tier, as well as the idea of Legendaries as “Account Unlocks” would be a great compromise between this set of dev’s perceived needs to give us something to grind, and the players’ expectations about what we were promised this game would be about.

And i could ignore them all bar the easiest tiers and just go skill hunting and boss hunting for green drops… ah GW1 how you were..

I like what the gw2 designers are doing,it not that hard to craft the ascended weapons and if you farm the mats your self you dont need that much gold,and ascended weap is only 5% better anyway just enjoy the game and farm it slowly you are not missing anything by rushing it other than overprice mats price ;P

Yeah because people aren’t already complaining about extra tiers of armor. You want to add not 1, not 2, but 3 extra tiers outside of what we now have?

…

lol

fellyn.5083:

Yeah because people aren’t already complaining about extra tiers of armor. You want to add not 1, not 2, but 3 extra tiers outside of what we now have?

…

lol

Reading comprehension, dummy. Only one tier is anything we don’t already have (the last tier just really being different shades of Legendary) and even that tier I’d be more than happy to get rid of if Anet hadn’t already gone ahead and made Ascended statistically better than exotic.

I mean geez, if we could have this structure with the Fabled tier I suggested just taken out entirely, and have Ascended and Legendary stats nerfed back to be equal with exotic, that’d be even better! But the codes and recipes are all in now, and the same idiots who supposedly buy into this whole “Ascended gear is only 5% better!” nonsense would probably still have a heart attack once they got the news that their oh-so-precious gear that they “totally didn’t grind for” got nerfed. So this is the more realistic approach.

I assure you. No one seriously complaining about the addition of Ascended tier would have a problem with what I’m suggesting. If you actually read the post and stop trying to troll with misleading oversimplifications (“Lolol if 1 new tier is bad, more is doubleplusbad!”), you’d see how this is meant to directly address their issue.

Leveling and max gearing a char in GW1 took about 1/20th the amount of time it took in GW2 before they added ascended. This doesn’t like like something GW1 devs would do at all, just a lesser version of the monster grind GW2 has decided to add.

Waffler.1257:

Leveling and max gearing a char in GW1 took about 1/20th the amount of time it took in GW2 before they added ascended. This doesn’t like like something GW1 devs would do at all, just a lesser version of the monster grind GW2 has decided to add.

True. But then we’d have a game where you get to max level in the span of a day, and have nothing to do for the rest of the game because you’ve already unlocked all 16 of your skills and there’s like maybe 2 builds in the meta for you to choose from. Anyone seriously looking for this game to start playing more like GW1 is gonna be waiting a long time. But at least with a gear structure that doesn’t further discourage players from experimenting with new playstyles, the game could begin to approach a more dynamic metagame than one in which players are essentially married to the one build on their main character that they spent half a year gearing into. A flexible gear structure, even if it requires a little grinding, at least allows the game room to grow horizontally rather than vertically in the future.

I mean, can you imagine if 6 months from now, after everyone’s just finally gotten their characters equipped with their first complete set of Ascended, ANet just dropped a surprise expansion that adds new weapons, trait lines, and types of skills to choose from that fall outside of the parameters that people have already geared for? Or heck, a whole new class that you have to deck out in Ascended? Even if it didn’t raise the level cap, people would have an aneurysm over having to re-gear their characters for the new meta. ANet is painting themselves into a corner by keeping things they way the are.

Bad Decision Dino.1386:

fellyn.5083:

Yeah because people aren’t already complaining about extra tiers of armor. You want to add not 1, not 2, but 3 extra tiers outside of what we now have?

…

lol

Reading comprehension, dummy. Only one tier is anything we don’t already have (the last tier just really being different shades of Legendary) and even that tier I’d be more than happy to get rid of if Anet hadn’t already gone ahead and made Ascended statistically better than exotic.

I mean geez, if we could have this structure with the Fabled tier I suggested just taken out entirely, and have Ascended and Legendary stats nerfed back to be equal with exotic, that’d be even better! But the codes and recipes are all in now, and the same idiots who supposedly buy into this whole “Ascended gear is only 5% better!” nonsense would probably still have a heart attack once they got the news that their oh-so-precious gear that they “totally didn’t grind for” got nerfed. So this is the more realistic approach.

I assure you. No one seriously complaining about the addition of Ascended tier would have a problem with what I’m suggesting. If you actually read the post and stop trying to troll with misleading oversimplifications (“Lolol if 1 new tier is bad, more is doubleplusbad!”), you’d see how this is meant to directly address their issue.

I don’t see how I misread what you said. How does creating more stuff to grind fix any issues when people are already complaining about the grind?

fellyn.5083:

Bad Decision Dino.1386:

fellyn.5083:

Yeah because people aren’t already complaining about extra tiers of armor. You want to add not 1, not 2, but 3 extra tiers outside of what we now have?

…

lol

Reading comprehension, dummy. Only one tier is anything we don’t already have (the last tier just really being different shades of Legendary) and even that tier I’d be more than happy to get rid of if Anet hadn’t already gone ahead and made Ascended statistically better than exotic.

I mean geez, if we could have this structure with the Fabled tier I suggested just taken out entirely, and have Ascended and Legendary stats nerfed back to be equal with exotic, that’d be even better! But the codes and recipes are all in now, and the same idiots who supposedly buy into this whole “Ascended gear is only 5% better!” nonsense would probably still have a heart attack once they got the news that their oh-so-precious gear that they “totally didn’t grind for” got nerfed. So this is the more realistic approach.

I assure you. No one seriously complaining about the addition of Ascended tier would have a problem with what I’m suggesting. If you actually read the post and stop trying to troll with misleading oversimplifications (“Lolol if 1 new tier is bad, more is doubleplusbad!”), you’d see how this is meant to directly address their issue.

I don’t see how I misread what you said. How does creating more stuff to grind fix any issues when people are already complaining about the grind?

How are you not getting this?

The only thing I added was one tier which is essentially identical to what Ascended is right now, only it’s EASIER to obtain! Then I reworked the following tiers so that those who do obtain them are better rewarded for having done so – in the form of NOT having to grind additional versions of those items for different builds and characters.

The system I’m suggesting is a huge reduction in the grind, and lets players who don’t want to grind at all get off the treadmill far earlier than they have the option to right now.

Bad Decision Dino.1386:

fellyn.5083:

Bad Decision Dino.1386:

fellyn.5083:

Yeah because people aren’t already complaining about extra tiers of armor. You want to add not 1, not 2, but 3 extra tiers outside of what we now have?

…

lol

Reading comprehension, dummy. Only one tier is anything we don’t already have (the last tier just really being different shades of Legendary) and even that tier I’d be more than happy to get rid of if Anet hadn’t already gone ahead and made Ascended statistically better than exotic.

I mean geez, if we could have this structure with the Fabled tier I suggested just taken out entirely, and have Ascended and Legendary stats nerfed back to be equal with exotic, that’d be even better! But the codes and recipes are all in now, and the same idiots who supposedly buy into this whole “Ascended gear is only 5% better!” nonsense would probably still have a heart attack once they got the news that their oh-so-precious gear that they “totally didn’t grind for” got nerfed. So this is the more realistic approach.

I assure you. No one seriously complaining about the addition of Ascended tier would have a problem with what I’m suggesting. If you actually read the post and stop trying to troll with misleading oversimplifications (“Lolol if 1 new tier is bad, more is doubleplusbad!”), you’d see how this is meant to directly address their issue.

I don’t see how I misread what you said. How does creating more stuff to grind fix any issues when people are already complaining about the grind?

How are you not getting this?

The only thing I added was one tier which is essentially identical to what Ascended is right now, only it’s EASIER to obtain! Then I reworked the following tiers so that those who do obtain them are better rewarded for having done so – in the form of NOT having to grind additional versions of those items for different builds and characters.

The system I’m suggesting is a huge reduction in the grind, and lets players who don’t want to grind at all get off the treadmill far earlier than they have the option to right now.

So the end result would be the same as it is now? With more steps in the middle? I’m still not sure how that’s supposed to be better.

It’s not like it’s all that hard to make an ascended weapon now. If you try even a little bit you’ll have enough stuff to make one within a week or two.

Very interesting