Guild Wars 2

I really want to love this game and many do love it, but what causes me to not log in is the Combat and lack of depth in my honest opinion. GW1 had really great combinations of skills and a great feeling of freedom of choice and theory-crafting involved with a character. If we were to see GW2 go in that direction with the skills/abilities and have more meaningful specializations IE can actually spec to heal or tank I think this would be my premier choice in games. As it stands Dungeons feel like a zerg fest with more time spent rezzing one another and dodging. These are just things that I feel would improve the games depth for me. This game is beautifully crafted and I feel sad that I don’t want to log in.

This post was not meant to troll or start a flame war its just my opinions as a long time mmo fan.

Because the other thread on Guild Wars 1 combat wasn’t good enough. Well, you’re entitle to your opinion. I personally like the combat better in Guild Wars 2. I feel more involved with it.

Don’t get me wrong I enjoy the action combat aspect of it but I would just like to see the return of elite skills and more specialization call it holy trinity or what ever but you can never have meaningful pve without it. And not the elite skills we have now, most of them are lackluster I miss finding the mob that has the skill I want and capturing it and having it be awesome. I feel this game did a complete 180 to its predecessor , we went from not enough levels and gear and amazing class customization to a lot of levels and gear and lame character customization with better graphics.

See, Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 are very very different games. Each has strengths and weaknesses. This is particularly true for me in PvE.

In Guild Wars 1, success or failure was often determined before you left your outpost. Everything was your build. If you had the wrong skillls, you were doomed. In Guild Wars 2, you can’t change builds at will, but you can change skills and major traits at will, even between bosses in the same dungeon. And changing weapons out of combat will change skills, and changing in combat with weapon swap will change skills. This makes the game more “reactive” and more natural for me.

When I specced heroes in Guild Wars 2, I almost didn’t have to be there in PvE. I’m sure PvP was very different, but in PVe, it became a snooze fest. And returning to earlier zones only excaerbated the problem.

Plus everything was pathed. You mgiht have had more skill flexibility but you didn’t have the freedom to wander where you will.

Basically both games have good and bad points. And I’m relatively sure that Guild Wars 2 will mature over time. New skills and weapons will be added, and things will be changed to make it better.

At first I felt the same way. That the encounters were more complex in GW1 because of such a vast array of skills and multiple mobs grouped together. But as I’ve played I’ve realized that combat is much more dynamic and active in GW2. With active dodging and jumping around, I feel like combat is actually that…combat. Before it was stand there and autoclick, your character moved as the attack required it. And I thankfully don’t have to rely on a group of henchies to wander around the world and survive fights. In dungeons you still have to prioritize targets, some buff allies, some summon minions, some dish out serious aoe. So instead of the healer enemy and the mesmer enemy, you have a more robust and balanced enemy.

We also have a lot of conditions & boons in GW2. More than were in GW1. And they lend way to the complexities of combat. We don’t have mesmers with Backfire. Instead, we have multiple professions dishing out Confusion. We don’t have necros with Spiteful Spirit. Instead we have Retaliation. Fury for spiking, Might stacking for burn phases (or whole fights), Prot, Aegies, Swiftness, Quickness.

As I commented here (did not saw this thread) I do agree that combat can be made much better.

OTOH I agree with Vayne that going back into “Buld Wars” is not the solution, at least not for the “majority” of players.

In short, AI changes to the PvE can do wonders to the combat feel without even touching current system.

As forums are nice place for the (imaginary) wish lists:

Remove dodge from the heavy classes! PLEASE! : its stupid seeing character wearing a ton of armor dodging around — replace it with real blocks (same endurance), they should be able to take hit one way or another and not jump like rabbits around.

I think a lot of this can be fixed by adding spawnable bosses with class elite skills that have random places in the world at level 80 that they can be triggered at. This would give more players a reason to travel to the older zones. Use a system similar to gw1 in the capturing process. Adding like 20 elite skills to each class in this manner as well as giving some of the elites the ability to turn someone via perma buff into a tank or healer(your weapon skill also heal nearby targets or cause threat and add some dmg mitigation buffs) just using its normal weapon skills would add serious depth without requiring a complete redesign. Basically just have to add a slot for this skill on the hotbar and tweak agro tables on mobs. Be nice to see a lot more weapons too.

Datastar.5329:

…the ability to turn someone via perma buff into a tank or healer…would add serious depth without requiring a complete redesign…

Making a perma tank or perma healer doesn’t sound like adding depth. Sounds like making a character 1-dimensional.

Why do we insist on forcing the trinity on GW2? It was a part of a very popular MMORPG. But it doesn’t need to be a part of every MMORPG. Halo has sticky grenades and they are really fun….not every FPS needs em.

This game is making a go at a non-trinity combat style. It may need tweaking, but let’s not just be lazy and fall back on something that, in my opinion, is a tired mechanism that creates boring dungeon play. Let’s think of ways to promote the combat style that already exists but with less emphasis on the zerg.

The only thing I would like to have is an enemy cast bar so I don’t have to guess all the time when to cast what.

Classes are pretty much grey-mush and combat is too fast-paced and button mashy… and really it feels like they’re already overdue for a review of class mechanics and abilities to adjust everything (maybe also while upping the AE cap to 10 or more).

These things take time and willingness, though. All you can do is let them know you’re concerned and are willing to accept changes (even big ones) that make the game better…and be patient. (Or go play something else…)

We’ve had these threads since the start of the game, and every time the same thing gets said. Honestly, at this point it’s meaningless.

I have to agree with Seras and Vayne. We have to expand on the Game Design.
- Basically it comes down to two kinds of aspects. The Game Concept, which is the idea that we want implemented, and the Game Design, which is determining the way that game concept will be implemented.

The Holy Trinity as a game concept is still a part of Guild Wars 2, but the Game Design is, well, designing it differently.
- I have come to find that the Holy Trinity, or the supporting of ones fellow players, works best when I play with my friends and have them over skype or have a “LAN” party. We are much quicker to act on the combo fields and such.
- I used to think the exact same way about the issues that you describe, so I can understand your frustration.

Still, if we are to look at the game design, I think that it is a matter of implementing new weapons (which ANet said they would. They have stated that they want more skills to add to the combat, but also that they are doing it the GW2 way) or maybe some vehicles in certain areas, like Orr, that we can use to fight off the enemies.

- Take a game design from GW2 that can be expanded. Maybe Utility Skills that are based on a certain weapon. Like if you wield a two-handed sword, you can purchase utility skills that are exclusive to that and add more moves that you can pull off on the battlefield.

- But yeah, suggest a game concept that can be improved or something that expands the game design, and let the devs take it from there.

I find the classes very distinctly defined and enjoyable. In fact, I think Anet must have spent a good deal of time on this. My Warrior plays TOTALLY differently from my Mesmer, and my Mesmer has several possibilities within itself, each quite distinct (e.g. shatter vs. phantasms build). But also, an Elementalist playst totally differently from a Mesmer, and differently yet again from a Necromancer or an Engineer.

The game may yet eventually turn into mush over the years, like WoW, but at the moment it seems pretty balanced to me. All the class forums kitten about equally, which seems about right.

Take a few months off. The first anniversary is coming up, and I suspect you will see some big content additions for it.

The combat in this game is extremely boring in my opinion and the builds are boring because so few are viable. You aren’t the only person who feels this way OP.

Sinifair.1026:

I have to agree with Seras and Vayne. We have to expand on the Game Design.
- Basically it comes down to two kinds of aspects. The Game Concept, which is the idea that we want implemented, and the Game Design, which is determining the way that game concept will be implemented.

The Holy Trinity as a game concept is still a part of Guild Wars 2, but the Game Design is, well, designing it differently.
- I have come to find that the Holy Trinity, or the supporting of ones fellow players, works best when I play with my friends and have them over skype or have a “LAN” party. We are much quicker to act on the combo fields and such.
- I used to think the exact same way about the issues that you describe, so I can understand your frustration.

Still, if we are to look at the game design, I think that it is a matter of implementing new weapons (which ANet said they would. They have stated that they want more skills to add to the combat, but also that they are doing it the GW2 way) or maybe some vehicles in certain areas, like Orr, that we can use to fight off the enemies.

- Take a game design from GW2 that can be expanded. Maybe Utility Skills that are based on a certain weapon. Like if you wield a two-handed sword, you can purchase utility skills that are exclusive to that and add more moves that you can pull off on the battlefield.

- But yeah, suggest a game concept that can be improved or something that expands the game design, and let the devs take it from there.

You can be a full on Ele support healer in this game with the right gear but it will effect your drops. My Ele is in all healing gear and heals a ton.

I think your mixing up chose for build and combat. If you chose to play a hero in such a way by building them in such a way that more about building not combat. Combat is more on the lines what you need to do to land dmg and avoid dmg. GW2 combat is very good compared to GW1. GW1 was very much an non active system no aiming no donging all base off acc and evasion (i am not sure on this point it could of been every one had 100% acc but still it was non active aiming). In GW2 you have to aim you got to keep moving. Now the chose for builds are a bit lacking for GW2 but its still a very new game GW1 did not get big before a year + and before that most ppl though it was going to die and was dieing.

Added note: for though who call combat in GW2 boring your taking the idea of combat out of context of the game type. This is an mmorpg not an fps or a fighter or even a 3ed person action game. You must keep that the combat in GW2 must be usable with lag usable with bad pc usable with any thing that has the online restriction that mmorpgs must deal with. If you truly wanted a “fun” combat game i would say play a street fighters game. If you want an mmorpg with the best combat to date you want to play GW2.

nekitten234:

As I commented here (did not saw this thread) I do agree that combat can be made much better.

OTOH I agree with Vayne that going back into “Buld Wars” is not the solution, at least not for the “majority” of players.

In short, AI changes to the PvE can do wonders to the combat feel without even touching current system.

As forums are nice place for the (imaginary) wish lists:

Remove dodge from the heavy classes! PLEASE! : its stupid seeing character wearing a ton of armor dodging around — replace it with real blocks (same endurance), they should be able to take hit one way or another and not jump like rabbits around.

This. I like this. Although if I may expand upon it a bit….

The “dodge” mechanic is somewhat bad but it is bad on the AI side of it. It’s not the fact that we can dodge that is bad, but rather that you basically have to stare at the screen without so much as blinking because some of the attacks that require you to do come without warning and have a fraction of a second cast time.

Just remember that given any cast time you have to work with, subtract .08 seconds from it. Most don’t know it but even our brains run at a frequency when it comes to processing information. 80ms. In short, we gather up 80ms worth of information then process the ‘packet’ at once.

Add on each person’s unique delay in reflexes, motor skills, etc. etc.

Then there is ping.

Then there is all of the particle effects taking place that can mask the mobs action causing you to miss the, sometimes, subtle move that indicates what they are going to do.

It all just a little too twichy.

Rant aside and more to the point of expanding on the idea above…

If “dodge” was something that was more unique to the class. Block or parry would work great for a warrior and a guardian. Keep the current dodge for ranger. Thiefs could phase out / stealth for a second. Elementalists can “block” with a large rock. Mesmers can phase in some way.

Use Combat Mode Mod.

Vorch.2985:

Use Combat Mode Mod.

How widely used is this, exactly? I’ve seen a little bit about it. What’s ANet’s stance on it?

stagnant combat in GW1 versus crazy action combat in GW2……. HMMMMM,,,, I think I pick GW2.

I enjoyed the amount of skills available in GW1 (even though a lot of them were redundant). Other that, GW2’s combat is vastly superior in my opinion.

Also, this thread seems like a thinly veiled “I want the trinity” type of thread.

Deamhan.9538:

nekitten234:

As I commented here (did not saw this thread) I do agree that combat can be made much better.

OTOH I agree with Vayne that going back into “Buld Wars” is not the solution, at least not for the “majority” of players.

In short, AI changes to the PvE can do wonders to the combat feel without even touching current system.

As forums are nice place for the (imaginary) wish lists:

Remove dodge from the heavy classes! PLEASE! : its stupid seeing character wearing a ton of armor dodging around — replace it with real blocks (same endurance), they should be able to take hit one way or another and not jump like rabbits around.

This. I like this. Although if I may expand upon it a bit….

The “dodge” mechanic is somewhat bad but it is bad on the AI side of it. It’s not the fact that we can dodge that is bad, but rather that you basically have to stare at the screen without so much as blinking because some of the attacks that require you to do come without warning and have a fraction of a second cast time.

Just remember that given any cast time you have to work with, subtract .08 seconds from it. Most don’t know it but even our brains run at a frequency when it comes to processing information. 80ms. In short, we gather up 80ms worth of information then process the ‘packet’ at once.

Add on each person’s unique delay in reflexes, motor skills, etc. etc.

Then there is ping.

Then there is all of the particle effects taking place that can mask the mobs action causing you to miss the, sometimes, subtle move that indicates what they are going to do.

Never mind facing down multiple mobs, where dodging one just find yourself facing the end of the windup of another. And the PVE part love throwing multiple mobs at you.

It all just a little too twichy.

Yep.

Rant aside and more to the point of expanding on the idea above…

If “dodge” was something that was more unique to the class. Block or parry would work great for a warrior and a guardian. Keep the current dodge for ranger. Thiefs could phase out / stealth for a second. Elementalists can “block” with a large rock. Mesmers can phase in some way.

And perhaps some way to sustain a defensive action rather than have it last a predefined number of seconds. So that in a group setting you can go “oh snap” and raise your guard while the rest of the group peel them off you or some other option come off recharge (the latter also applying for solo play). Right now your only option for this is to run around in circles like a headless chicken. To me that just adds to the workload rather than giving the player a controlled breather to reassess.

Farzo.8410:

The only thing I would like to have is an enemy cast bar so I don’t have to guess all the time when to cast what.

I agree! The visual cues of enemies are hard to see, especially when there’s a zerg of people spamming all their skills.

I would also like to see the way cooldowns function. As it is now, if you hit a skill without a target, it’s a wasted cooldown. This is very bad. It should only trigger the cooldown during combat.

Seras.5702:

Datastar.5329:

…the ability to turn someone via perma buff into a tank or healer…would add serious depth without requiring a complete redesign…

Making a perma tank or perma healer doesn’t sound like adding depth. Sounds like making a character 1-dimensional.

Why do we insist on forcing the trinity on GW2? It was a part of a very popular MMORPG. But it doesn’t need to be a part of every MMORPG. Halo has sticky grenades and they are really fun….not every FPS needs em.

This game is making a go at a non-trinity combat style. It may need tweaking, but let’s not just be lazy and fall back on something that, in my opinion, is a tired mechanism that creates boring dungeon play. Let’s think of ways to promote the combat style that already exists but with less emphasis on the zerg.

The current design is sub-par. Trying out different styles like GW2 has is good, but sometimes you have to recognize that it’s not always best and needs to be tweaked to a better design philosophy.

Creeper.9360:

I enjoyed the amount of skills available in GW1 (even though a lot of them were redundant). Other that, GW2’s combat is vastly superior in my opinion.

Also, this thread seems like a thinly veiled “I want the trinity” type of thread.

A lot of ppl are getting combat mixed up with diversely of builds. Combat is any thing during combat any thing out side of this is something comply different. When you changes your build or even changes skills out of combat that not part of combat. Alone with the weapon switch in mid combat GW2 out plays GW1 BUT due to fewer skills GW1 out dose GW2 in diversely of builds (this is more of a time problem then game problem.)

Jski.6180:

Creeper.9360:

I enjoyed the amount of skills available in GW1 (even though a lot of them were redundant). Other that, GW2’s combat is vastly superior in my opinion.

Also, this thread seems like a thinly veiled “I want the trinity” type of thread.

A lot of ppl are getting combat mixed up with diversely of builds. Combat is any thing during combat any thing out side of this is something comply different. When you changes your build or even changes skills out of combat that not part of combat. Alone with the weapon switch in mid combat GW2 out plays GW1 BUT due to fewer skills GW1 out dose GW2 in diversely of builds (this is more of a time problem then game problem.)

Yeah I understand. I’m just saying that if I could import one thing from GW it would be the way that skills were handled (although I don’t mind having skills tied to weapon choice, I’d like there to be some choices within that skill set). Otherwise the combat itself is much better in GW2.

Creeper.9360:

Jski.6180:

Creeper.9360:

I enjoyed the amount of skills available in GW1 (even though a lot of them were redundant). Other that, GW2’s combat is vastly superior in my opinion.

Also, this thread seems like a thinly veiled “I want the trinity” type of thread.

A lot of ppl are getting combat mixed up with diversely of builds. Combat is any thing during combat any thing out side of this is something comply different. When you changes your build or even changes skills out of combat that not part of combat. Alone with the weapon switch in mid combat GW2 out plays GW1 BUT due to fewer skills GW1 out dose GW2 in diversely of builds (this is more of a time problem then game problem.)

Yeah I understand. I’m just saying that if I could import one thing from GW it would be the way that skills were handled (although I don’t mind having skills tied to weapon choice, I’d like there to be some choices within that skill set). Otherwise the combat itself is much better in GW2.

Could you switch skill mid-combat in GW1 or say just out side of combat like in GW2?

Jski.6180:

Creeper.9360:

Jski.6180:

Creeper.9360:

I enjoyed the amount of skills available in GW1 (even though a lot of them were redundant). Other that, GW2’s combat is vastly superior in my opinion.

Also, this thread seems like a thinly veiled “I want the trinity” type of thread.

A lot of ppl are getting combat mixed up with diversely of builds. Combat is any thing during combat any thing out side of this is something comply different. When you changes your build or even changes skills out of combat that not part of combat. Alone with the weapon switch in mid combat GW2 out plays GW1 BUT due to fewer skills GW1 out dose GW2 in diversely of builds (this is more of a time problem then game problem.)

Yeah I understand. I’m just saying that if I could import one thing from GW it would be the way that skills were handled (although I don’t mind having skills tied to weapon choice, I’d like there to be some choices within that skill set). Otherwise the combat itself is much better in GW2.

Could you switch skill mid-combat in GW1 or say just out side of combat like in GW2?

can only switch skills at an outpost in GW1

I also preferred Gw1 combat and skills/builds over GW2, GW2 is faster and more fluid but its only skin deep compared to GW1…

I never once thought wow Guildwars has too many redundant skills to play, i just used whatever i liked, Guildwars 2 its use what you’re given or move on, not a great way to run a game imo, and it feels like i’m trivializing the AI with too much freedom..

Creeper.9360:

Jski.6180:

Creeper.9360:

Jski.6180:

Creeper.9360:

I enjoyed the amount of skills available in GW1 (even though a lot of them were redundant). Other that, GW2’s combat is vastly superior in my opinion.

Also, this thread seems like a thinly veiled “I want the trinity” type of thread.

A lot of ppl are getting combat mixed up with diversely of builds. Combat is any thing during combat any thing out side of this is something comply different. When you changes your build or even changes skills out of combat that not part of combat. Alone with the weapon switch in mid combat GW2 out plays GW1 BUT due to fewer skills GW1 out dose GW2 in diversely of builds (this is more of a time problem then game problem.)

Yeah I understand. I’m just saying that if I could import one thing from GW it would be the way that skills were handled (although I don’t mind having skills tied to weapon choice, I’d like there to be some choices within that skill set). Otherwise the combat itself is much better in GW2.

Could you switch skill mid-combat in GW1 or say just out side of combat like in GW2?

can only switch skills at an outpost in GW1

Which added a ton of strategy to the game, and made it a lot tougher if you took the wrong skills, you know that harder combat everyone complains isn’t in GW2…

boon hate will add a bit of depth, as well as build diversity.

Dante.1508:

I also preferred Gw1 combat and skills/builds over GW2, GW2 is faster and more fluid but its only skin deep compared to GW1…

I never once thought wow Guildwars has too many redundant skills to play, i just used whatever i liked, Guildwars 2 its use what you’re given or move on, not a great way to run a game imo, and it feels like i’m trivializing the AI with too much freedom..

Creeper.9360:

Jski.6180:

Creeper.9360:

Jski.6180:

Creeper.9360:

I enjoyed the amount of skills available in GW1 (even though a lot of them were redundant). Other that, GW2’s combat is vastly superior in my opinion.

Also, this thread seems like a thinly veiled “I want the trinity” type of thread.

A lot of ppl are getting combat mixed up with diversely of builds. Combat is any thing during combat any thing out side of this is something comply different. When you changes your build or even changes skills out of combat that not part of combat. Alone with the weapon switch in mid combat GW2 out plays GW1 BUT due to fewer skills GW1 out dose GW2 in diversely of builds (this is more of a time problem then game problem.)

Yeah I understand. I’m just saying that if I could import one thing from GW it would be the way that skills were handled (although I don’t mind having skills tied to weapon choice, I’d like there to be some choices within that skill set). Otherwise the combat itself is much better in GW2.

Could you switch skill mid-combat in GW1 or say just out side of combat like in GW2?

can only switch skills at an outpost in GW1

Which added a ton of strategy to the game, and made it a lot tougher if you took the wrong skills, you know that harder combat everyone complains isn’t in GW2…

No that means your locked into one thing at any given time that in effect removes the ability to play with a changing strategy. The inability to adapted is like playing a game of chest with nothing but pawns. This means encounters cant be too complex and cant changes in the long run “you need this build to run this event over all” where if you can switch just out side of combat then events become “well this fight is going to be this way and the next fight going to be comply different.”

That not realty a strategy that just a gimmick build that you hope they have no true counter made for it. Even in LoL you can counter and adapted with items in game.

It sounds you’re like complaining GW2 is bad because it isnt like 99% of mmos…..
It’s like back in 1700s people just stood in rows and shot at each other, then it occurred to someone to use strategy in wargare, movement, stealth, terrain, etc.
And I don’t think anyone ever suggested to go back to standing in rows and shoot at each other without moving, which is kinda like what old mmos were like.