Guild Wars 2

maddoctor.2738:

If I recall the term “living breathing world” appeared later in the game’s lifetime and not at release, or even during the first couple of months. The “Living World” came later on and part of the game that was sold included instanced content. All the early releases included instanced content, Ascend to Madness, Trix’s mini-dungeon etc It’s not like they hated instanced content

Druid is an excellent DPS and offensive support option, enhancing the damage of the entire group with multiple buffs. They have both power and condition damage builds that have nothing to do with healing.

Hard mode option was added much later in GW1 lifetime, at that point it was much needed to keep the older content relevant.

We don’t even have ONE complete Raid, we don’t know what exactly will be needed to craft the complete Legendary armor, and yet people are asking for a reduced difficulty setting already.

Nope, the living breathing world was something they talked about long before launch. At conventions and on panels.

Leo G.4501:

This thread confuses me.

So what is the issue here? The suggestion?

From what I can figure, you’ve had a past experience with some fashion of RPGs and you want an MMO to recapture that?

To me, my most interesting and influential RPG experiences were via online thread/skype. The story was partly within each character and the reward was revealing more about characters and how they fit in the world. No armor, trinkets, baubles, etc (although if you wanted them for your character you could certainly seek them). Could there be another online game that accomplishes the same? Maybe…only 1 I can think of off the top of my head, but even then, it’s only approaching similarity. It won’t ever reach those thread/skype sessions.

Taking what games like GW2 are, they’re just experiences. Different ones. I never seen the point of affording effort to discussing what something isn’t. Save the effort discussing what something could be…or just creating that ‘could be’ outcome yourself…but then I consider myself a creator. I think I enjoy creating a ‘thing’ more than I like getting in that ‘thing’ and test driving it.

The issue is that this game once provided me with an experience I enjoyed and I enjoy it less now due to a perceived change in focus. I’m not sure how that isn’t an issue, or how much clearer I could have really said this.

When this game launched, dynamic events and the open world gave me more of the feeling I was looking for than either raids or PvP. Those things are going to be more focused on now than the were in the past, which is something that takes away from my personal enjoyment. Others seem to have similar issues. But I thought why we have this issues would be interesting to look at as well.

maddoctor.2738:

Tailoring a game to 4-5 people is really easy, in an MMORPG you have loads of players so what do you do? Tailor it to some unofficial “majority”? Anything that isn’t doable or desirable by that “majority” should be removed or tweaked so they can do it?

Not quite, but close. You can have content and rewards for minorities, but you have still to pay attention, so if that a content/reward is desirable to a majority, then that majority should be able to play/obtain it. Preferably without getting to hate the game in the process.

maddoctor.2738:

And anyone who bought the game for the instanced based content has been disenfranchised for years. When was the last dungeon added to the game?

Yes, i’d rather have more dungeons than Raids. I agree with you on this completely.

Storm.1653:

If everyone was given the best stuff Just for participating there would be no progression, nothing to work for and would be very boring for the majority. Once you finish the story, then what?? The game is over?? Trying to get your niche experience from a game not designed for it is kind of crazy Tbh.

But that’s exactly how it was in Guild Wars 1, and Guild Wars 1 did fine that way. Why do you think so many people were annoyed by ascended gear?

In Guild Wars 1 we had elite armors and we had normal armors and they were the same in fuction and stats, the only difference was the skins.

We had great weapon skins like the volatic spear, the celestical compass, but the only difference between that and much cheaper weapons was the skin. There was no difference in functionality at all. It worked for five years for Guild Wars 1 and would have continued working except Anet wanted to make a game to take the world to places they couldn’t do within the confines of Guild Wars 1.

That didn’t have to include tiers of gear locked behind specific content. A really awesome skin would have done the same job.

maddoctor.2738:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

They mentioned that the game would feature a living, breathing world before launch.

August 9th, 2011

My name is Angel Leigh McCoy, and I’m one of several writers on the Guild Wars 2 design team. We’ve been molding Tyria into a living, breathing world, and I’m here to share some audio clips of in-game dialogue and give you some insight into the sylvari, Tyria’s newest race.

I guess I should’ve said “they wouldn’t only deal with a living/breathing world”, since a lot of the earlier releases had a dungeon somewhere. Better now?

I simply looked at the percentage of time they spoke about a living breathing world and the amount of time they spent talking about instances, particularly dungeons. Dungeons were always there, but they were never the focus of the advertising.

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

If I recall the term “living breathing world” appeared later in the game’s lifetime and not at release, or even during the first couple of months. The “Living World” came later on and part of the game that was sold included instanced content. All the early releases included instanced content, Ascend to Madness, Trix’s mini-dungeon etc It’s not like they hated instanced content

Druid is an excellent DPS and offensive support option, enhancing the damage of the entire group with multiple buffs. They have both power and condition damage builds that have nothing to do with healing.

Hard mode option was added much later in GW1 lifetime, at that point it was much needed to keep the older content relevant.

We don’t even have ONE complete Raid, we don’t know what exactly will be needed to craft the complete Legendary armor, and yet people are asking for a reduced difficulty setting already.

Nope, the living breathing world was something they talked about long before launch. At conventions and on panels.

However, I think what they were referring to there wasn’t so much Living Story as much as the dynamic and meta event chains (Living Story is awful, because it locks people out of the world if they don’t have time to truly live two lives).

^^^^ yeah i recall that blog post was more about events chains changing the world /like detrorying pipes and such

Sartharina.3542:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

If I recall the term “living breathing world” appeared later in the game’s lifetime and not at release, or even during the first couple of months. The “Living World” came later on and part of the game that was sold included instanced content. All the early releases included instanced content, Ascend to Madness, Trix’s mini-dungeon etc It’s not like they hated instanced content

Druid is an excellent DPS and offensive support option, enhancing the damage of the entire group with multiple buffs. They have both power and condition damage builds that have nothing to do with healing.

Hard mode option was added much later in GW1 lifetime, at that point it was much needed to keep the older content relevant.

We don’t even have ONE complete Raid, we don’t know what exactly will be needed to craft the complete Legendary armor, and yet people are asking for a reduced difficulty setting already.

Nope, the living breathing world was something they talked about long before launch. At conventions and on panels.

However, I think what they were referring to there wasn’t so much Living Story as much as the dynamic and meta event chains (Living Story is awful, because it locks people out of the world if they don’t have time to truly live two lives).

Sure, but I’m not talking about living story either. I’m talking about a living breathing world. The comment I was responding to was talking about dungeons. My argument is that though Anet did mention dungeons sometimes, they never really claimed dungeons were a focus of the game. They didn’t push instanced content, they pushed open world content. That’s the point.

Vayne.8563:

Sartharina.3542:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

If I recall the term “living breathing world” appeared later in the game’s lifetime and not at release, or even during the first couple of months. The “Living World” came later on and part of the game that was sold included instanced content. All the early releases included instanced content, Ascend to Madness, Trix’s mini-dungeon etc It’s not like they hated instanced content

Druid is an excellent DPS and offensive support option, enhancing the damage of the entire group with multiple buffs. They have both power and condition damage builds that have nothing to do with healing.

Hard mode option was added much later in GW1 lifetime, at that point it was much needed to keep the older content relevant.

We don’t even have ONE complete Raid, we don’t know what exactly will be needed to craft the complete Legendary armor, and yet people are asking for a reduced difficulty setting already.

Nope, the living breathing world was something they talked about long before launch. At conventions and on panels.

However, I think what they were referring to there wasn’t so much Living Story as much as the dynamic and meta event chains (Living Story is awful, because it locks people out of the world if they don’t have time to truly live two lives).

Sure, but I’m not talking about living story either. I’m talking about a living breathing world. The comment I was responding to was talking about dungeons. My argument is that though Anet did mention dungeons sometimes, they never really claimed dungeons were a focus of the game. They didn’t push instanced content, they pushed open world content. That’s the point.

It wasn’t the main focus of the game yes. But they pushed dungeons too. If you take a look at the release page, there are quite a few dungeons on that list.

In 2012: Ascend to Madness, Fractals of the Mists (massive dungeon update less than 3 months after release), Tixx’s Infinirarium (yes it was a dungeon)

In 2013: Molten Facility, Canach’s Lair (advertised as dungeon, although it was more like a single fight, I remember the rage when it wasn’t an actual dungeon), Aetherblade Retreat, Aetherpath, Fractured update got us 1 new Fractal and 4 re-releases of old dungeons as fractals (Thaumanova Reactor, Molten Furnace, Aetherblade, Captain Mai Trin Boss and Molten Boss)

2014: No actual dungeons but we got the Living World Season 2, which was heavily focused on instances story wise and some of those instances were quite good candidates for maybe new fractals.

2015: Spirit Vale first opened

Focused on it? No. But there were a LOT of regular dungeon releases during the first year. Then they suddenly completely stopped releasing new dungeons or caring for dungeons entirely. Why wouldn’t anyone who bought the game on the premise that it has challenging instance content, not continue to expect such? Given their regular dungeon/instanced releases? Only to see it all suddenly vanishing and disappearing.

November 2013 was the last month with any instanced content update, and yes after that they did nothing for instances. But that wasn’t true for the rest of 2013 and 2012.

Didn’t read the thread but only OP post.
I agree what Vayne said, and my conclusion is that MMOS aren’t for you. People who like playing MMOS like to compete against other players, you’ll find friends bc at some point you don’t want to be alone, and you’ll have a good time with them for example beating Raid boss, doing guild runs etc…
People who really don’t like this game or any game, just don’t come here braging about it, they just leave and move on, they simply doesn’t care about the game.

I don’t understand what are you trying to say? complain about something that isn’t working ? just drop an idea, what would you like gw2 to have.

I too like you started playing rpg with papers and dices, rpg and mmos are nothing alike, if you want to have the rpg feeling of progressing exploring dungeons doing a quest just go play Baldur’s Gate or something like that.

Vayne.8563:

The issue is that this game once provided me with an experience I enjoyed and I enjoy it less now due to a perceived change in focus. I’m not sure how that isn’t an issue, or how much clearer I could have really said this.

When this game launched, dynamic events and the open world gave me more of the feeling I was looking for than either raids or PvP. Those things are going to be more focused on now than the were in the past, which is something that takes away from my personal enjoyment. Others seem to have similar issues. But I thought why we have this issues would be interesting to look at as well.

Okay, this seems a lot clearer. I guess I did what Fade to Black.7042 did and just lost your points in all of your paragraphs. But if what I quote is actually your issue, wouldn’t it be better to suggest more “back to basic” maps to explore? Go through old maps with busted events? Add or update events as stories evolve? I’m still super hyped for the game if they really do have Tengu or another race in the works as playable because there will be a lot of what I like added to the game.

I’m just unsure of what this thread is attempting to do besides provide the cliche “this game isn’t for you” response.

I will add though, after playing more and more in the HoT maps, some of those events are pretty interesting and enjoyable but I definitely wouldn’t want all maps to become as predictable, stale or frustrating as Silverwastes, Drytop and Verdant Brink (respectively) are and bring things back to basics.

Hi Vayne, just wanted to drop in an thank you for this post. It puts down some of my wories in words I as a non-native speaker surely would not have found.

I come from a different perspective with my own MMO experience, but in the end it boils down to more or less the same point.

When the hardcore/raid guys repeated their desire to have parts of this game support their way of gaming, I thought to myself “well, why not? I will never again set foot into something that is responsible for the worst experiences in my MMO history, but I don’t need to. So if they then finally kitten when they get what they want and it does not cost too many dev resources which are then missing in the parts that are played by the majority, I couldn’t care less.”

Well, it turns out that there will be raid-exclusive rewards and now that players who belong to the “non-hardcore” say “well, can we then have a normal mode for this please so that even the players who may have disabilities or are not so much into this stuff can do it at a slower pace?” it shows (again) which box of pandora this whole business has opened. It turns out that several of the tolerance-demanding hardcore players do not have much tolerance in them towards others themselves. Some simply seem to need to feel superior to others and therefore feel an urge to lock others out.

While this may be a personal problem and there is for sure professional help for that, it is something ANet could have foreseen and countered before it became obvious, because it can quickly become toxic for “the best MMO community around”. Therefore I think it is really time for the countermeasures:
a) raids need an adjustable difficulty setting
b) raids should not have a raid-exclusive gear rarity level

Fade to Black.7042:

People who like playing MMOS like to compete against other players,

Just no. Maybe you have not noticed, but the vast majority of PvE in this game is cooperative, not competitive. That is what made this game the success it is. It is not very clever to turn away from that.

Vayne.8563:

Storm.1653:

If everyone was given the best stuff Just for participating there would be no progression, nothing to work for and would be very boring for the majority. Once you finish the story, then what?? The game is over?? Trying to get your niche experience from a game not designed for it is kind of crazy Tbh.

But that’s exactly how it was in Guild Wars 1, and Guild Wars 1 did fine that way. Why do you think so many people were annoyed by ascended gear?

In Guild Wars 1 we had elite armors and we had normal armors and they were the same in fuction and stats, the only difference was the skins.

We had great weapon skins like the volatic spear, the celestical compass, but the only difference between that and much cheaper weapons was the skin. There was no difference in functionality at all. It worked for five years for Guild Wars 1 and would have continued working except Anet wanted to make a game to take the world to places they couldn’t do within the confines of Guild Wars 1.

That didn’t have to include tiers of gear locked behind specific content. A really awesome skin would have done the same job.

Amen.

I much prefer the idea of player progression post level cap than gear progression. In GW1, after hitting level cap, the focus for me was on completing stories, getting cool weapon and armor skins, and becoming a better player. Long after I had every skin I could ever want, had completed every mission, had a stockpile of tens of thousands of ectos, etc…I was still working on improving as a player…and it was fun to see my personal progression.

Vayne.8563:

They didn’t push instanced content, they pushed open world content. That’s the point.

And this is still the case.

The raid team is less than 5% of the dev team. Raids are part of HoT and represent a small fraction of the expansion.

I appreciate how genuine this post is. But I fundamentally disagree with its conclusion.

I dabbled in a couple of mmo’s before guild wars 2, but never really got hooked on any others. What hooked me on guild wars 2 was the active combat and cooperative open world mechanics.

I can dodge. I can move while attacking. I don’t have 4 skill bars worth of skills. There’s no kill stealing. No node stealing.

For my first year, I enjoyed the open world. It’s beautiful. Quests appear to have meaning. There’s always another nook to explore.

But, eventually, you discover everything. Yes, anet had living story releases, but you beat those too. So what kept me in game? Fractals and dungeons. I just love the combat. Can’t get enough.

So raids? They help bring out some of those combat mechanics. And they do a really good job in doing it.

I can see why people are upset. There’s no real exploration in the new zones. Most are somewhat dangerous, so you can’t really stop and smell the roses. And the story was so short that you can beat it in a couple of days.

But you’re not looking for raid content. Please, don’t destroy it. You want more sandbox maps, events like the destruction of lions arch and the zephyrites, and bosses like the marionette. But please understand, we haven’t had new fractals or dungeons for over 2 years. For people like me, who enjoy the combat, this content is tantamount.

So ask for what you’re looking for. New maps. World events. But don’t neuter or slow down raids in the process. It’s ok for people to enjoy different content in this game.

10 man dungeons that are longer than the normal dungeons and just enough difficulty that you cannot zerg and these raids/instances would be perfect imo.

Fade to Black.7042:

Didn’t read the thread but only OP post.
I agree what Vayne said, and my conclusion is that MMOS aren’t for you. People who like playing MMOS like to compete against other players ….

I disagree with that notion 10 fold.

I love MMOs, I love being surrounded by other flesh and blood players to chat with. But the only competition I’m having is myself vs the game world. I have no compulsion to compete with other players which is why I love GW2. No KS, no rush to the new mat node first, no loot or XP sharing. This game’s PvE is designed to NOT be a competition. You want to compete, go play PvP. Heck go play an FPS or whatever version of sport console title you can school each other in. The only competition you have in PvE is keeping up with the Logan’s in terms of fancy skins or titles or AP or swanky rewards anyone can get if they do content X, that you can wave around in front of one another.

There is a non-insignificant population here that cares squat about PvP or WvW and are simply here for the story, the world, and the ability to interact with it and each other. MMOs aren’t just online versions of playing King of the Mountain when you were 8.

I haven’t really been on the forums much recently so this was my first chance to read this. Sweet post , Vayne.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

Sartharina.3542:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

If I recall the term “living breathing world” appeared later in the game’s lifetime and not at release, or even during the first couple of months. The “Living World” came later on and part of the game that was sold included instanced content. All the early releases included instanced content, Ascend to Madness, Trix’s mini-dungeon etc It’s not like they hated instanced content

Druid is an excellent DPS and offensive support option, enhancing the damage of the entire group with multiple buffs. They have both power and condition damage builds that have nothing to do with healing.

Hard mode option was added much later in GW1 lifetime, at that point it was much needed to keep the older content relevant.

We don’t even have ONE complete Raid, we don’t know what exactly will be needed to craft the complete Legendary armor, and yet people are asking for a reduced difficulty setting already.

Nope, the living breathing world was something they talked about long before launch. At conventions and on panels.

However, I think what they were referring to there wasn’t so much Living Story as much as the dynamic and meta event chains (Living Story is awful, because it locks people out of the world if they don’t have time to truly live two lives).

Sure, but I’m not talking about living story either. I’m talking about a living breathing world. The comment I was responding to was talking about dungeons. My argument is that though Anet did mention dungeons sometimes, they never really claimed dungeons were a focus of the game. They didn’t push instanced content, they pushed open world content. That’s the point.

It wasn’t the main focus of the game yes. But they pushed dungeons too. If you take a look at the release page, there are quite a few dungeons on that list.

In 2012: Ascend to Madness, Fractals of the Mists (massive dungeon update less than 3 months after release), Tixx’s Infinirarium (yes it was a dungeon)

In 2013: Molten Facility, Canach’s Lair (advertised as dungeon, although it was more like a single fight, I remember the rage when it wasn’t an actual dungeon), Aetherblade Retreat, Aetherpath, Fractured update got us 1 new Fractal and 4 re-releases of old dungeons as fractals (Thaumanova Reactor, Molten Furnace, Aetherblade, Captain Mai Trin Boss and Molten Boss)

2014: No actual dungeons but we got the Living World Season 2, which was heavily focused on instances story wise and some of those instances were quite good candidates for maybe new fractals.

2015: Spirit Vale first opened

Focused on it? No. But there were a LOT of regular dungeon releases during the first year. Then they suddenly completely stopped releasing new dungeons or caring for dungeons entirely. Why wouldn’t anyone who bought the game on the premise that it has challenging instance content, not continue to expect such? Given their regular dungeon/instanced releases? Only to see it all suddenly vanishing and disappearing.

November 2013 was the last month with any instanced content update, and yes after that they did nothing for instances. But that wasn’t true for the rest of 2013 and 2012.

The dungeon team was dsibanded pretty early on though and Anet said directly fractals would be their dungeons moving forward. They’re pretty clearly not the center of the game. By percentage, dungeons were a very small part of this experiment. And one that got abandoned pretty early on.

Fade to Black.7042:

Didn’t read the thread but only OP post.
I agree what Vayne said, and my conclusion is that MMOS aren’t for you. People who like playing MMOS like to compete against other players, you’ll find friends bc at some point you don’t want to be alone, and you’ll have a good time with them for example beating Raid boss, doing guild runs etc…
People who really don’t like this game or any game, just don’t come here braging about it, they just leave and move on, they simply doesn’t care about the game.

I don’t understand what are you trying to say? complain about something that isn’t working ? just drop an idea, what would you like gw2 to have.

I too like you started playing rpg with papers and dices, rpg and mmos are nothing alike, if you want to have the rpg feeling of progressing exploring dungeons doing a quest just go play Baldur’s Gate or something like that.

This is pure projection on this part. Even years ago, Scott Hartsman who was the lead designer of Rift said straight out that developers couldn’t afford to ignore people who solo in MMOs. Wildstar devs, who designed their game around dungeons and raids said that they really didn’t get that more people would want less competitive content and apologized and tried to add that content. And a Loitro dev said directly that less than 10% of Lotro EVER raided or PvPed since launch.

Even Guild Wars 2, before launch in the FAQ, had a question about soloing content. So obviously if a signficant portion of the playerbase is soloing they’re not playing the game to compete.

Then there are people play RP or play MMOs for social reasons. And then there are people like the over 200 people in my guild who just play the game to have fun with friends.

If you have data to prove what you’re saying I’d love to hear it, because it seems to me that many people, including many developers believe that a huge portion of the MMO crowd are casual. For example, of the hardest raids in WoW, Ghostcrawler himself said only 5% finished them. And hard core players continually complain how these games keep getting more and more dumbed down. I’m not sure why you think MMO players on the whole are so competitive.

Leo G.4501:

Vayne.8563:

The issue is that this game once provided me with an experience I enjoyed and I enjoy it less now due to a perceived change in focus. I’m not sure how that isn’t an issue, or how much clearer I could have really said this.

When this game launched, dynamic events and the open world gave me more of the feeling I was looking for than either raids or PvP. Those things are going to be more focused on now than the were in the past, which is something that takes away from my personal enjoyment. Others seem to have similar issues. But I thought why we have this issues would be interesting to look at as well.

Okay, this seems a lot clearer. I guess I did what Fade to Black.7042 did and just lost your points in all of your paragraphs. But if what I quote is actually your issue, wouldn’t it be better to suggest more “back to basic” maps to explore? Go through old maps with busted events? Add or update events as stories evolve? I’m still super hyped for the game if they really do have Tengu or another race in the works as playable because there will be a lot of what I like added to the game.

I’m just unsure of what this thread is attempting to do besides provide the cliche “this game isn’t for you” response.

I will add though, after playing more and more in the HoT maps, some of those events are pretty interesting and enjoyable but I definitely wouldn’t want all maps to become as predictable, stale or frustrating as Silverwastes, Drytop and Verdant Brink (respectively) are and bring things back to basics.

Well one thing this thread is trying to do is to educate against certain generic and seemingly automatic responses. I said I don’t enjoy raiding and people immediately assume I can’t raid, I’m not good enough to raid, or that I’m lazy and want to hit 1 to beat everything, none of which is the case.

People assume that because I don’t want to see rewards locked behind a single content type that I’m entitled without having any context at all.

And maybe some devs are younger and newer and aren’t even aware that some of us come here from a completely different background.

I’m not sure why an interesting discussion has to have a single over-arching purpose. Sometimes, you can talk about something because it interests you, without having some major agenda, no?

Vayne.8563:

The dungeon team was dsibanded pretty early on though and Anet said directly fractals would be their dungeons moving forward. They’re pretty clearly not the center of the game. By percentage, dungeons were a very small part of this experiment. And one that got abandoned pretty early on.

I put Fractals and Dungeons together as instanced content. From November 2013 to November 2015 we had absolutely no new instanced content, 2 whole years of nothing. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t players who bought the game for the challenging instanced content and the great combat system. There are also players who bought the game for the skill-focused (not gear/level focused) PVP , those who bought it for the massive battles of server vs server warfare and others.

I’m only arguing against the idea that this game is all about a living/breathing world and anyone who bought it for anything else wasn’t well informed. The devs chose to abandon dungeons/fractals, the devs chose to abandon PVP (catering only to the “pros” for a very long time) and WvW has been on its own slowing dying for years as well. But all these existed at release, and were heavily advertised to exist in the game before its release, and players bought the game for these “features”. They didn’t buy it only for the living world dream.

GW2 != Living World alone. And it’s about time they started doing something for the other parts of the game. PVP Leagues, upcoming WvW update and Raids are all features that cater to a completely neglected part of the playerbase.

Absurdo.8309:

I appreciate how genuine this post is. But I fundamentally disagree with its conclusion.

I dabbled in a couple of mmo’s before guild wars 2, but never really got hooked on any others. What hooked me on guild wars 2 was the active combat and cooperative open world mechanics.

I can dodge. I can move while attacking. I don’t have 4 skill bars worth of skills. There’s no kill stealing. No node stealing.

For my first year, I enjoyed the open world. It’s beautiful. Quests appear to have meaning. There’s always another nook to explore.

But, eventually, you discover everything. Yes, anet had living story releases, but you beat those too. So what kept me in game? Fractals and dungeons. I just love the combat. Can’t get enough.

So raids? They help bring out some of those combat mechanics. And they do a really good job in doing it.

I can see why people are upset. There’s no real exploration in the new zones. Most are somewhat dangerous, so you can’t really stop and smell the roses. And the story was so short that you can beat it in a couple of days.

But you’re not looking for raid content. Please, don’t destroy it. You want more sandbox maps, events like the destruction of lions arch and the zephyrites, and bosses like the marionette. But please understand, we haven’t had new fractals or dungeons for over 2 years. For people like me, who enjoy the combat, this content is tantamount.

So ask for what you’re looking for. New maps. World events. But don’t neuter or slow down raids in the process. It’s ok for people to enjoy different content in this game.

How is not looking an entire tier behind raid rewards destroying raids? Or are you saying people will only raid if you force them to for rewards? I don’t believe dungeon runners are half the player base, even though more than half the player base as run dungeons. I’ve run dungeons dozens of times…each dungeon dozens of times, with the exception of TA Aetherblade and Arah path four which I’ve probably run a dozen times. I do it to help people in my guild if they want something for an achievement, but for much of the time I find it to be more of a chore.

Yes, there are those who love dungeons and raids, but if they’re not a majority you shouldn’t create rewards just for that group that include functionality. In Guild Wars 1, everyone could get top level stuff. What you couldn’t get were skins.

I don’t understand how applying that here would kill raids. I’m not anti raid. I’m anti-taking away goals that might help keep people playing who don’t want to raid.

If I started raiding, within months, I’d be looking for another MMO, because ultimately it’s too much time playing something I’m not personally enjoying. Since most of my other goals have been accomplished, why lock legendary armor behind raids exclusively? How does that help raiders?

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

They didn’t push instanced content, they pushed open world content. That’s the point.

And this is still the case.

The raid team is less than 5% of the dev team. Raids are part of HoT and represent a small fraction of the expansion.

I agree with this. It doesn’t really have to do with what I’m talking about in my OP, though. This is simply a response to someone telling me why what I’m saying is essentially wrong. My argument isn’t that raids shouldn’t exist.

My argument is that specific rewards shouldn’t be locked behind them, as in an entire tier of gear, or functionality. They didn’t do it in Guild Wars 1, and I don’t really see the need to do this here.

It doesn’t matter if 1 person works on raids or 100, if people feel disenfranchised by having something in game that they simply can’t get without spending hours doing content they don’t like.

Absurdo.8309:

But you’re not looking for raid content. Please, don’t destroy it. You want more sandbox maps, events like the destruction of lions arch and the zephyrites, and bosses like the marionette. But please understand, we haven’t had new fractals or dungeons for over 2 years. For people like me, who enjoy the combat, this content is tantamount.

So ask for what you’re looking for. New maps. World events. But don’t neuter or slow down raids in the process. It’s ok for people to enjoy different content in this game.

I appreciate how genuine this post is. Also, while I am unlikely to play raids, I agree that players who like this type of content ought to get such content periodically.

I believe that there are members in almost every demographic who seem unhappy whenever anything gets added that isn’t their preferred content. Those sub-demographics seem to get larger whenever a content drought in general happens.

For me, the issue also seems to be that ANet — like most if not all MMO companies — just cannot come out with stuff fast enough. I was hoping that after the China release stopped sapping developer time, that ANet would both diversify content offerings and get back to more regular content releases. I’m not sure that quarterly releases are going to fit the bill, especially if the actual playable content offered is the equivalent of a boss revamp.

HoT was indeed a change in emphasis for ANet. Not only were raids added, but the maps were more narrowly focused than the core maps (except DT and SW, perhaps). I expect that the pendulum will swing back, maybe as soon as the HoT revisions hinted at. I expect that those revisions will be yet another case of ANet spending resources to make something, then spending even more to modify it. In other words, I’m in wait-and-see mode while remaining dubious.

So, I expect that Vayne will get the content he and doubtless others are after, sooner or later. I also expect that the wait will be too long for some. What I wish I didn’t expect is that some group is going to get thrown under the bus in the process.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

The dungeon team was dsibanded pretty early on though and Anet said directly fractals would be their dungeons moving forward. They’re pretty clearly not the center of the game. By percentage, dungeons were a very small part of this experiment. And one that got abandoned pretty early on.

I put Fractals and Dungeons together as instanced content. From November 2013 to November 2015 we had absolutely no new instanced content, 2 whole years of nothing. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t players who bought the game for the challenging instanced content and the great combat system. There are also players who bought the game for the skill-focused (not gear/level focused) PVP , those who bought it for the massive battles of server vs server warfare and others.

I’m only arguing against the idea that this game is all about a living/breathing world and anyone who bought it for anything else wasn’t well informed. The devs chose to abandon dungeons/fractals, the devs chose to abandon PVP (catering only to the “pros” for a very long time) and WvW has been on its own slowing dying for years as well. But all these existed at release, and were heavily advertised to exist in the game before its release, and players bought the game for these “features”. They didn’t buy it only for the living world dream.

GW2 != Living World alone. And it’s about time they started doing something for the other parts of the game. PVP Leagues, upcoming WvW update and Raids are all features that cater to a completely neglected part of the playerbase.

Yes, Guild Wars 2 doesn’t equal living world alone. But what does this have to do with my premise. It doesn’t matter if you and 30% of the player base adore raids. That’s not the issue.

Many of us came to this game because it was casual and fun and everyone could get top rewards if they pretty much just played for long enough. Even legendary weapons that required 9 runs of a single dungeon path could be done more casually over time, yes even Arah. We could run the dungeon once, recover for a month and run it again and in 9 months we could get enough tokens to buy our legendary. Raiding requires far more of a commitment. But the only way to get legendary armor is to raid. People who have run out of goals, like me, have a perfect goal in legendary armor, but I’d have to focus on something long term I don’t enjoy.

Even dungeon skins you could get through PvP all along, so there were two ways to get those.

You keep saying there is instanced content in this game. That’s true. But in no case in this game has an entire tier of gear, functionality, been locked behind a single type of content that requires the commitment of raids.

You might say that well, if you wanted sinister trinkets and such, you’d have to do really hard achievements (at least hard for some people) but none of those achievements required the commitment of raids.

And for some people even that was too hard, anyway.

The point is, locking anything away behind one game type that many people don’t enjoy (whether they can do it or not) is just bad for the game in my opinion.

I’m not talking about unique skins here. I’m talking about unique functionality. I have legendary weapons but I’ll probably never have legendary armor, because if I forced myself to do something I don’t enjoy I’d end up leaving the game.

So unless you think it’s reasonable to lock a tier of gear behind a single content type, I don’t even know what you’re posting about. Clearly I’m not the only person who came here to get away from stuff like raids. I left Rift because it was a raid centric game and once I leveled a couple of times I was done.

Have your raids. Enjoy them. But don’t lock an entire tier of gear, something functional behind them, because if you do, you create kitten and them mentality that many of us came here to get away from.

Except an entire tier isnt really locked behind raids. Legendary and ascended are essentially the same, except you can switch stats on the fly, something that is neglible outside of raids anyway and just something they added as a tiny extra.

Essentially these raids are for skins and minis. This is no different to GW1. And not forgetting certain greens in GW1 were locked behind hm dungeons. Again they werent essential either as they were on par with what could be found or made, its just they came pre parcelled for convenience.

Disliking raids and what the bring is fine. Disliking them because they bring exclusive tiered rewards is not applicable to this game at this time.

Vayne.8563:

I’m not sure why an interesting discussion has to have a single over-arching purpose. Sometimes, you can talk about something because it interests you, without having some major agenda, no?

I guess you’re right there. But then ultimately, the true purpose rises up:

“If I started raiding, within months, I’d be looking for another MMO, because ultimately it’s too much time playing something I’m not personally enjoying. Since most of my other goals have been accomplished, why lock legendary armor behind raids exclusively? How does that help raiders?”

To me, there’s just never enough time in the day to do all the things I want to accomplish or enjoy doing so I guess ‘purpose-less’ things kind of irk me (looking at you FB) so I’ve always got my eye on what purpose things serve.

So the issue is that this Legendary Armor (lol I don’t have as much time to browse the forums like I used to!) is going to be locked into Raiding. Firstly, I never really cared about keeping up with the Logan’s (as someone joked) so as long as the armor isn’t statistically better than Ascended, there’s no real problem not having it at all. Secondly, there’s always looking at perspective: as a game designer, what would you put at the end of hard repeatable content that will keep the playerbase engaged with the content? You can’t put nothing there. You can’t just hand it out easily. You can’t allow it to be bland or useless. While I can understand the discontent with having story gated into the raids, I can’t feel bad about locking legendary armor. I’ve gone all these years without a legendary weapon and only recently began manufacturing some ascended weapons out of necessity to have some goal to reach (not to get more powerful but to save on inventory space!). The difference is need and want.

Now what the game needs, IMO, is balancing its content. WvW kinda got some overhauls but only after years of waiting. PvP is constantly getting updates and now we’ve got Raiding as a different type of content. The main thing I’d say the game needs is to make sure there is a separation between PvE content and Raiding as well as Dungeon/Fractals.

That said, there will be that friction between what people want. Best to just accept that and post what it is you want and hope that the devs listen for future releases.

Randulf.7614:

Except an entire tier isnt really locked behind raids. Legendary and ascended are essentially the same, except you can switch stats on the fly, something that is neglible outside of raids anyway and just something they added as a tiny extra.

Essentially these raids are for skins and minis. This is no different to GW1. And not forgetting certain greens in GW1 were locked behind hm dungeons. Again they werent essential either as they were on par with what could be found or made, its just they came pre parcelled for convenience.

Disliking raids and what the bring is fine. Disliking them because they bring exclusive tiered rewards is not applicable to this game at this time.

Switching stats on the fly would be awesome for someone who both WvW’s and PvE’s. I want to run zerker in PvE but I don’t want to necessarily run zerker in WvW. Why do you think only raiders would be interested in this.

It’s a new tier of gear with a new color. Stats are the same but the functionality is not. You can’t say it’s not a new tier of gear, when clearly it’s a new tier officially.

Leo G.4501:

Vayne.8563:

I’m not sure why an interesting discussion has to have a single over-arching purpose. Sometimes, you can talk about something because it interests you, without having some major agenda, no?

I guess you’re right there. But then ultimately, the true purpose rises up:

“If I started raiding, within months, I’d be looking for another MMO, because ultimately it’s too much time playing something I’m not personally enjoying. Since most of my other goals have been accomplished, why lock legendary armor behind raids exclusively? How does that help raiders?”

To me, there’s just never enough time in the day to do all the things I want to accomplish or enjoy doing so I guess ‘purpose-less’ things kind of irk me (looking at you FB) so I’ve always got my eye on what purpose things serve.

So the issue is that this Legendary Armor (lol I don’t have as much time to browse the forums like I used to!) is going to be locked into Raiding. Firstly, I never really cared about keeping up with the Logan’s (as someone joked) so as long as the armor isn’t statistically better than Ascended, there’s no real problem not having it at all. Secondly, there’s always looking at perspective: as a game designer, what would you put at the end of hard repeatable content that will keep the playerbase engaged with the content? You can’t put nothing there. You can’t just hand it out easily. You can’t allow it to be bland or useless. While I can understand the discontent with having story gated into the raids, I can’t feel bad about locking legendary armor. I’ve gone all these years without a legendary weapon and only recently began manufacturing some ascended weapons out of necessity to have some goal to reach (not to get more powerful but to save on inventory space!). The difference is need and want.

Now what the game needs, IMO, is balancing its content. WvW kinda got some overhauls but only after years of waiting. PvP is constantly getting updates and now we’ve got Raiding as a different type of content. The main thing I’d say the game needs is to make sure there is a separation between PvE content and Raiding as well as Dungeon/Fractals.

That said, there will be that friction between what people want. Best to just accept that and post what it is you want and hope that the devs listen for future releases.

Legendary armor, certain trinkets which you can only get from raiding at this time. And of course future rewards.

The issue is that I’m out of goals and locking goals behind something I’m not likely to enjoy is annoying, but that’s not the only agenda here and if you believe it is you’re fooling yourself.

My biggest agenda, if I had to pick one, was letting people know not everyone who doesn’t want to raid can’t do it, is lazy, or wants to press 1 to win.

That’s the bigger agenda.

So what do you say to people who want viper trinkets to finish their build? Do they also have an agenda?

Vayne.8563:

So what do you say to people who want viper trinkets to finish their build? Do they also have an agenda?

That depends. If all they’re saying is “I want viper trinkets to finish my build,” then no.

Those people are free to want viper trinkets forever. Just like hardcore PvP players are free to want PvE to be removed from this game. Doesn’t mean anet should ever cater to those players.

However, if they’re saying “I want viper trinkets to finish my build and I don’t want to have to raid to get them,” or anything to that tune, then yes, those people have an agenda.

Vayne.8563:

Why do you think only raiders would be interested in this..

Because you yourself amongst other have stated this in the past and that only speedrunners and min/maxers would ever want mutiple sets and even defended against needing ascended as having changing stats because of it.

Legendary is not realistically a tier. Not in the same way exotic is to ascended. Legendary adds at most, convenience and is the perfect reward for hardcore content, since few would ever put so much effort into getting a full set of legendary armour just for stat switching, when getting multiple ascended would be incredily easier and still require roughly the same number of double clicking to equip. What it adds, is an exclusive skin.

Regardless, we should all be well aware Anet never stick to what they say. You as a rightfully staunch defender over the years of the “manifesto” are only too aware that most of what Anet say is subject to changes as their business and visions evolve. Pretty certain we will one day see legendary armour as a reward outside of raids, but for now I believe it is in the right place as an ‘early access’.

Good read and very well written, Vayne. I don’t always see eye to eye with your opinion, but on this we agree. One of the issues I think is they have no way to gauge this kind of interest with a metric.

I really hope they go back to some of the things that made this game great when it was released. It really is a special game, but it’s so far removed these days from what I liked about it. It’s all wait and see for me these days and daily login rewards with the hope they return to their roots.

BDO has really filled the void for me these days. I drive a farm wagon around trading goods. I decorate my house on the coast. I enjoy fishing trips on my buddy’s fishing boat. You may want to give it a try.

Randulf.7614:

Vayne.8563:

Why do you think only raiders would be interested in this..

Because you yourself amongst other have stated this in the past and that only speedrunners and min/maxers would ever want mutiple sets and even defended against needing ascended as having changing stats because of it.

Legendary is not realistically a tier. Not in the same way exotic is to ascended. Legendary adds at most, convenience and is the perfect reward for hardcore content, since few would ever put so much effort into getting a full set of legendary armour just for stat switching, when getting multiple ascended would be incredily easier and still require roughly the same number of double clicking to equip. What it adds, is an exclusive skin.

Regardless, we should all be well aware Anet never stick to what they say. You as a rightfully staunch defender over the years of the “manifesto” are only too aware that most of what Anet say is subject to changes as their business and visions evolve. Pretty certain we will one day see legendary armour as a reward outside of raids, but for now I believe it is in the right place as an ‘early access’.

Well, we won’t if people don’t point it out as a problem. However, I’m more interested in the other side of this debate. I think people just need to know that not everyone that doesn’t want to raid is necessarily lazy or incapable. Some of us just don’t enjoy it.

You can not want to raid and still enjoy a challenge…just a different type of challenge.

Vayne.8563:

So what do you say to people who want viper trinkets to finish their build? Do they also have an agenda?

Not to sound dismissive, I’d tell them to stop feeling so entitled. It’s just a stat distribution, not gear. If you can’t use Viper’s, use something else to complete your build. If you’re OCD and you just have to have everything the same nomenclature, it’s called a disorder for a reason…

The game shouldn’t just hand you everything you want your way all the time. And I’m not saying people who complain want everything handed to them but as a gamer, games should challenge you and push you out of your comfort zone for specific rewards. So long as the game doesn’t force you to have it, it’s not an actual issue, but a manufactured issue that is case-by-case depending on the player.

That all said, I’d just suggest the devs release those gear sets through other means but that doesn’t really solve anything, it just quiets those who would be satisfied with the solution and leave all else excluded.

Vayne.8563:

I think people just need to know that not everyone that doesn’t want to raid is necessarily lazy or incapable. Some of us just don’t enjoy it.

You can not want to raid and still enjoy a challenge…just a different type of challenge.

I don’t disagree with that, but that’s an internet community issue. Anet made some fairly stupid statements about ascended requirements which fueled that, but otherwise it’s a difficult situation for them control. At least no in game inspections/dps meters exist, but I don’t think the elite Vs casual mentality, which is what it boils down to eventually, can be overcome.

Whilst people continue to post lfg entries like “experienced only” all they are doing is continuing the ongoing trend for raids dying away, by putting walls up for new players. These appeared less than a week after the 2nd wing appeared and yet the vast majority of players could never be experienced so soon.

This is why raids are dying away in MMO’s. It’s not because of rewards, it’s not because they are too hard, it’s because it is fashionable for players to block players out.

But that’s a subject for a different thread

Leo G.4501:

Vayne.8563:

So what do you say to people who want viper trinkets to finish their build? Do they also have an agenda?

Not to sound dismissive, I’d tell them to stop feeling so entitled. It’s just a stat distribution, not gear. If you can’t use Viper’s, use something else to complete your build. If you’re OCD and you just have to have everything the same nomenclature, it’s called a disorder for a reason…

The game shouldn’t just hand you everything you want your way all the time. And I’m not saying people who complain want everything handed to them but as a gamer, games should challenge you and push you out of your comfort zone for specific rewards. So long as the game doesn’t force you to have it, it’s not an actual issue, but a manufactured issue that is case-by-case depending on the player.

That all said, I’d just suggest the devs release those gear sets through other means but that doesn’t really solve anything, it just quiets those who would be satisfied with the solution and leave all else excluded.

There’s a big big difference between asking for a hand out and asking for multiple ways to get things. That’s my whole point and your responses are backing up my very need for this thread.

We don’t want to run this particular content so we’re entitled. You’ve said the word. You find the content okay, you’re not disliking it, so anyone who does either has to force themselves to do that content or they’re entitled.

I don’t know about you but I think people play games to have fun. Not to run content they don’t enjoy.

And I still maintain that WvW players would want this stuff as much as PvE’ers would, and yet they’d be forced to PvE to get it. Do you think they’re entitled too? Ugly word if you ask me.

People are using the word entitled to make it seem like people want something for nothing. I simply want to have options to get stuff without having to do something long term that I don’t have fun in a game.

I’m pretty sure that’s not what entitled means.

+1 Vayne. We actually agree on something.

Well, I don’t agree with all of it, but there’s nothing so strong as to be worth arguing, because overall you are dead on with the majority of it. Well said.

OK a number of posters will choose to read any post in a manner to suit their personal agenda, I can not change that.

I have always ( read my post history, ) supported more choices for players. As a very long term pvp/rvr/wvw and previously raid player in many games since 1997, I have a different playstyle background than the OP.

I have watched 2-3 very large guilds dwindle to a handful of active players and agree with the OP that a lack of choices causes many to lose enjoyment in the game.

I do not want raids removed or raid drops lessened BUT I do want something placed in the game for non raiders to be able to progress along. I doubt I will use it personally but I choose to WvW here.

It is not a matter of hard or easy for me, if I enjoy the harder option I will play it, if I lose the enjoyment in a game I will move along.

Sometimes the enjoyment is in the achieving sometimes the journey. For each person the mileage varies, remember to speak only for yourself when you post to these threads.

Please count me as a +1 to the original post.

Vayne.8563:

There’s a big big difference between asking for a hand out and asking for multiple ways to get things. That’s my whole point and your responses are backing up my very need for this thread.

Most definitely and I likely overstepped my bounds when coming into the thread as there likely was no sort of agenda attached. That isn’t to say having an agenda is bad or good but it just may be shifting the thread off topic from the OP.

Vayne.8563:

We don’t want to run this particular content so we’re entitled. You’ve said the word. You find the content okay, you’re not disliking it, so anyone who does either has to force themselves to do that content or they’re entitled.

I don’t know about you but I think people play games to have fun. Not to run content they don’t enjoy.

And I still maintain that WvW players would want this stuff as much as PvE’ers would, and yet they’d be forced to PvE to get it. Do you think they’re entitled too? Ugly word if you ask me.

People are using the word entitled to make it seem like people want something for nothing. I simply want to have options to get stuff without having to do something long term that I don’t have fun in a game.

I’m pretty sure that’s not what entitled means.

Well do you or do you not feel entitled to having a specific gear set offered to your through a means you prefer? So what if they did offer earnable Viper’s sets outside of Raids but locked it behind jumping puzzles? That does nothing for me as I’ll do a jumping puzzle once and likely never again. So now I have to do these jumping puzzles or Raids if I want it?

Or they can just save us all the trouble and make them sellable and no one has to worry about what they do as long as they grind?

In my perspective, I don’t care either way. I’ve yet to even do a single raid and don’t have any plans as of yet for it (uhg, got too much other crap to grind…). But there is such a thing as entitlement and you can be one of three: you are entitled to something, you feel entitled to something or you don’t. It’s not a bad thing, IMO, to feel entitled to something but when you’re not you’re not.

Leo G.4501:

Vayne.8563:

There’s a big big difference between asking for a hand out and asking for multiple ways to get things. That’s my whole point and your responses are backing up my very need for this thread.

Most definitely and I likely overstepped my bounds when coming into the thread as there likely was no sort of agenda attached. That isn’t to say having an agenda is bad or good but it just may be shifting the thread off topic from the OP.

Vayne.8563:

We don’t want to run this particular content so we’re entitled. You’ve said the word. You find the content okay, you’re not disliking it, so anyone who does either has to force themselves to do that content or they’re entitled.

I don’t know about you but I think people play games to have fun. Not to run content they don’t enjoy.

And I still maintain that WvW players would want this stuff as much as PvE’ers would, and yet they’d be forced to PvE to get it. Do you think they’re entitled too? Ugly word if you ask me.

People are using the word entitled to make it seem like people want something for nothing. I simply want to have options to get stuff without having to do something long term that I don’t have fun in a game.

I’m pretty sure that’s not what entitled means.

Well do you or do you not feel entitled to having a specific gear set offered to your through a means you prefer? So what if they did offer earnable Viper’s sets outside of Raids but locked it behind jumping puzzles? That does nothing for me as I’ll do a jumping puzzle once and likely never again. So now I have to do these jumping puzzles or Raids if I want it?

Or they can just save us all the trouble and make them sellable and no one has to worry about what they do as long as they grind?

In my perspective, I don’t care either way. I’ve yet to even do a single raid and don’t have any plans as of yet for it (uhg, got too much other crap to grind…). But there is such a thing as entitlement and you can be one of three: you are entitled to something, you feel entitled to something or you don’t. It’s not a bad thing, IMO, to feel entitled to something but when you’re not you’re not.

Most people will agree that raiding is over all more exclusive than most jumping puzzles. The point here is exclusivity. The amount of commitment one must make to get through something. I wouldn’t lock anything behind the mad king’s tower’s jumping puzzle either.

If the full range of options were offered in each play type, we’ve have a choice. I wouldn’t mind WvWing for legendary gear or trinkets. In fact, I really liked WvW and the only reason I don’t play it is because I don’t want to exclude guildies who aren’t on my server. If that gets fixed, I expect to spend a lot more time in WvW.

I tend to find PvP infuriating. I really don’t like it. I like it less than raiding. My problem with raiding is being able to do anything on a schedule. I didn’t have to until now, so I don’t know why I have to now. It’s simply a change to the game I don’t like.

I don’t care if it’s a very long term goal or it’s hard to get. That’s not my issue and has never been my issue.

The easiest solution, and one they used in Guild Wars 1, was to make this stuff sellable. If you got a top end weapon in Guild Wars 1, you could sell it. Tormented weapons were some of the hardest weapons to get in the game and people sold them.

By making it account bound, raiders can get it and screw everyone else. Sorry but that’s not what I signed on for.

RP….means….roleplay
MMORPG means massive multiplayer online role playing game…

considering RP alone…role playing the character….
does people actually think that the character get strong overnight?
the character must undergo some training, repeating things to strengthen and continue to strengthen by repeating training, that is where grinding come about.

but if is a long leveling process, people then complain about the grind for leveling, it is really hard to satisfy people.

so, end up, they spread the grind to other places like getting items from dungeons.

Randulf.7614:

Except an entire tier isnt really locked behind raids. Legendary and ascended are essentially the same, except you can switch stats on the fly, something that is neglible outside of raids anyway and just something they added as a tiny extra.

Then raiders would have no problem with legendary functionality being obtainable outside of raids, right? I mean, it’s a little thing, apparently. A “tiny extra”.

SkyShroud.2865:

RP….means….roleplay
MMORPG means massive multiplayer online role playing game…

considering RP alone…role playing the character….
does people actually think that the character get strong overnight?
the character must undergo some training, repeating things to strengthen and continue to strengthen by repeating training, that is where grinding come about.

but if is a long leveling process, people then complain about the grind for leveling, it is really hard to satisfy people.

so, end up, they spread the grind to other places like getting items from dungeons.

This is very much why I like the open world more than dungeons. Going into the dungeon I’m fighting the same boss with the same mechanics every time. Every single time. It reduces the game to a game of memory. He raises his arm, dodge in. He moves back, you can stun him or whatever.

In the open world I can participate in taking a town and you know, if I run back later and the town is lost again, it’s not, in my mind, the game centaurs (or whatever) taking the town.

Even in real life, a town can be taken back and forth by the enemy, so it’s easy for me to immerse myself in that content.

Not the same when I’m fighting a single named boss in a dungeon who has three moves and repeats them over and over again.

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

They didn’t push instanced content, they pushed open world content. That’s the point.

And this is still the case.

The raid team is less than 5% of the dev team. Raids are part of HoT and represent a small fraction of the expansion.

I agree with this. It doesn’t really have to do with what I’m talking about in my OP, though. This is simply a response to someone telling me why what I’m saying is essentially wrong. My argument isn’t that raids shouldn’t exist.

My argument is that specific rewards shouldn’t be locked behind them, as in an entire tier of gear, or functionality. They didn’t do it in Guild Wars 1, and I don’t really see the need to do this here.

It doesn’t matter if 1 person works on raids or 100, if people feel disenfranchised by having something in game that they simply can’t get without spending hours doing content they don’t like.

Agreed. In GW1 the only thing gated behind specific endgame content were skins, and heroes (which were a form of functionality).

Still, feelings are feelings. Fun is a feeling. If it is not fun you are less likely to play, spend money, etc. I totally get that.

Personally I would rather see GW1 HA style rank emotes as the special rewards for content. Nothing that would affect your character’s normal appearance, no functionality, but enough cool factor to make pursuing them worthwhile (to me).

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

They didn’t push instanced content, they pushed open world content. That’s the point.

And this is still the case.

The raid team is less than 5% of the dev team. Raids are part of HoT and represent a small fraction of the expansion.

I agree with this. It doesn’t really have to do with what I’m talking about in my OP, though. This is simply a response to someone telling me why what I’m saying is essentially wrong. My argument isn’t that raids shouldn’t exist.

My argument is that specific rewards shouldn’t be locked behind them, as in an entire tier of gear, or functionality. They didn’t do it in Guild Wars 1, and I don’t really see the need to do this here.

It doesn’t matter if 1 person works on raids or 100, if people feel disenfranchised by having something in game that they simply can’t get without spending hours doing content they don’t like.

Agreed. In GW1 the only thing gated behind specific endgame content were skins, and heroes (which were a form of functionality).

Still, feelings are feelings. Fun is a feeling. If it is not fun you are less likely to play, spend money, etc. I totally get that.

Personally I would rather see GW1 HA style rank emotes as the special rewards for content. Nothing that would affect your character’s normal appearance, no functionality, but enough cool factor to make pursuing them worthwhile (to me).

Heroes really weren’t gated behind content though, not in the sense of something like raids or grind. Most heroes came from completing missions. You certainly didn’t need to gear up to get them. They missions were fairly easy.

If you couldn’t do them on your own you could bring up to 7 friends for most of it. Those were more like quests than anything else. If you want to call that gating, go ahead, but it’s nothing like grinding raids for tokens.

The fact is, I don’t think I ever failed an attempt to get a hero. Maybe Razah the first time. But the entire thing required 15 minutes of playing with no real prep.

In other words, through normal gameplay you unlocked those heroes. You didn’t need to gather a team of people since you had heroes already and you could solo most of that stuff.

Vayne.8563:

Heroes really weren’t gated behind content though, not in the sense of something like raids or grind.

Agreed.

As you mention, the Rit took an effort, but nothing on the same scale as a Raid. Gated to specific content, just not overly hard to get through. Then again, I think that GW1 did a better job of teaching players, at least those who stuck with it, to improve their game. By the time people got to some of the more difficult content, the gradual difficulty ramp up had prepared them to some degree.

Of course there were exceptions. Imagine my shock when I discovered that one of my guildies, long after reaching level cap, had never bothered to put points into Soul Reaping on his necro. He was convinced that the game hated him because everyone else had enough energy to get through a fight on their necros while he struggled.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Heroes really weren’t gated behind content though, not in the sense of something like raids or grind.

Agreed.

As you mention, the Rit took an effort, but nothing on the same scale as a Raid. Gated to specific content, just not overly hard to get through. Then again, I think that GW1 did a better job of teaching players, at least those who stuck with it, to improve their game. By the time people got to some of the more difficult content, the gradual difficulty ramp up had prepared them to some degree.

Of course there were exceptions. Imagine my shock when I discovered that one of my guildies, long after reaching level cap, had never bothered to put points into Soul Reaping on his necro. He was convinced that the game hated him because everyone else had enough energy to get through a fight on their necros while he struggled.

We have that here too. I had a guldie who didn’t realize the 4 downed skill rezzed you, though he’s been playing since launch. Blew me away.

Basically what I’m reading here is that you don’t want to play “MMORPGs”, but rather, “co-op/multiplayer RPGs”. MMORPGs have evolved past the “RPG” element towards a social experience. There’s no “role play” left in MMOs because “role play” (the way you want it to be done) can’t be done with a massive community – there’s too much disconnect between different players in expectations and time commitments.

In the past, when MMOs were smaller, role playing was indeed a main focus. I’m thinking back to late 90s/early 2000s Runescape, where the concept of instances and dungeons didn’t exist and many people simply played to make their character reflect them as a person (whether it was combat focused or a complete pacifist). In other words, role playing.

MMOs now don’t have that because they aren’t, if we’re going into semantics, RPGs. They’re more or less an interactive social network, pioneered by the likes of “Second Life”, “IMVU” and such. When we put time into these games, we expect adequate compensation equivalent to the time we put in. Whether we’re a PvP player or a dungeon raider, we expect that our time get adequately compensated.

I don’t disagree with your premise, but I strongly disagree with the way you talk down to people who want more out of this game for the way they want to play it.