Guild Wars 2

First of all, I would like to voice my support for the OP. Even though I have picked the game for different reasons than you, I totally share your feeling about how recently content has moved away from what I used to enjoy doing. These days, I basically just log in for a few quick dailies to keep in touch and somewhat prepare for future content that might suit me better.

Secondly, I wish to add my two cents about the reasons why this has turned out to be so: Generally speaking, I do no longer feel that a casual play-style is being welcomed. While I do not personally consider myself to be a casual player, I nevertheless picked GW2 over other MMOs for this. Prior to HoT, I felt that making progress was possible even with limited playtime. Dailies gave extra rewards, open world-bosses and even instanced content such as dungeons were easily accessible even to less dedicated players. As far as I can tell, HoT changed all this for the worse:

1. Overlong meta-events in the new maps: Staying in a map for 2h+ is just not accommodating enough for me. On the average work day, I would pretty much have to decide to play a meta-event (which happens on a fixed timer) only. Not gonna happen. I understand that this is supposed to be changed/improved in the future, but there is currently no eta or detailed information.
2. Dungeons officially dead: I guess I’m particularly cranky over this cause it used to be the activity I enjoyed most. Nevertheless, dungeons were (are?) what I consider to be the perfect concept of handling instanced content. The group size as well as difficulty managed to create a balance between accessibility and still rewarding more capable player. Aka beginners could still complete it or be carried by more experienced players, but it would take more time.
3. Fractals were supposed to replace dungeons, but they were somewhat dumbed down in order to make them more accessible. In addition to that, there wasn’t really any new content added. As a result, everyone just speed-runs swap (or a similar selection of short/easy fractal levels). Pretty much hit rock-bottom in terms of enjoyment.
4. Raids were hyped like crazy to the masses, yet they are only designed to be for a small percentage of hardcore players. Obvious communication problem aside, there is the whole matter of exclusivity and time-investment that I feel does not belong into a game like GW2. While I have dedicated a lot of effort into wing 1 (and successfully completed it several times), I came to understand that this is not how I wish to spend my valuable play-time.

To sum up, the new meta-events are too long, dungeons are dead, fractals have been slaughtered and raids are not for me. As such, there is simply nothing left in terms of PvE (… and PvP and WvW can’t make up for that by a long-shot). With the direction the game has been taking since HoT, I highly doubt that the upcoming LS3 will somehow magically change all this.

Lastly, this post got longer than I intended to – not meant to hijack the thread or anything, just wished to add a perspective similar to the one the OP describes: A veteran player no longer feeling welcome in the game.

Anet has said that raids are not some big thing they intend to be doing constantly but after offering it once some will finish it that day and ask for more and you provide again, then they do the same and rinse and repeat, let us say 5% of players do raids, 20% pvp, 30% wvw and 45% are the rest of the pve content.

Right now only 25% of their player base is being catered to. HoT was a flop and anyone who has played it including raiders have finished it. That 30% is basically gone, more like 5 or 10% now if that so now they have lost 20 – 25% pf their playerbase, now for pve with dungeons nerfed, fractals becoming available for everyone because you are leaving dungeons to die, HoT being 4 1-2 hour grinds and raids they lose 5% at the start and between 5 – 10% because they are bored and have nothing more to do because “glorious” esports.

That is a potential loss of 25 – 35% of your playerbase with one expansion, now this is not actual figures just a rough guess but in the case of this scenario they have lost 25 – 35% of a paying audiance in favor of a f2p community who will never pay a penny and to try to win the cash prize in the league and then leave.

In fact I quit today, I will check out ls3 but if it is as bad as HoT then you will have lost another player from those who beta tested and suported you for 4 years permanently.
I may stick sound if my girlfriend can persuade me to as we play together but I will no longer be supporting the game financially or with positives reviews.

Enjoy raidwars 2 heart of esports those who stick around xD

Vayne.8563:

How is suggesting that giving people goals without forcing them into content that has a relatively narrow band of players non-constructive?

I’m saying there’s a way to make it so players like me have more to do, while still giving raiders a reward to show off. You may not agree with that, but that doesn’t make it non-constructive.

On the other hand, I’m not so sure labeling constructive crticism as non-constructive because you don’t personally agree with is particularly constructive either.

I’ve made my case. I believe it’s constructive. I believe it will help the game. I demonstrated why I feel the way I do and other people seem to agree with me. I’m not saying close down raids. I’m not saying don’t make raids. I am saying don’t lock a tier of gear behind one specific type of content that most people will never do. I don’t believe that’s good for the game.

If you disagree that’s perfectly okay. But that doesn’t make the suggestion non-constructive.

I personally don’t think this is constructive (or at the least, as constructive as it could be) simply because you’re already made up your mind and have taken up the solution of “what I want or nothing”. Or perhaps I missed other posts in the past by yourself suggesting how to make raids more inclusive or interesting or alternate modes to the raid wings or something.

But from the context of the thread, I struggled to actually understand your perspective and still see no suggestion on exactly what your want to see. And no, “give me [insert reward] another way” isn’t very constructive.

The only REAL solution to your issue is to regulate your consumption of content. Everything in life is better in moderation.

How many topics need to be done about raids and legendary armour lol

Manasa Devi.7958:

Andulias.9516:

Considering the official metrics, which show raids have been very popular, I’d say pretty confident.

Where are those official metrics?

Yes, I would like to see read those too.
Andulias please provide a link.

Vayne.8563:

I don’t have to do them. I can stop playing.

Are you suggesting everyone who wants to stop playing because they have nothing to do shouldn’t give suggestions on things that would keep them in game? Because it sure sounds like that’s what you’re suggesting.

I would actually suggest taking a break BEFORE you have nothing to do. If you wait until you’re completely sick or fed up with something and accomplished everything you’d ever want to, it will take longer for the devs to introduce a content patch large enough to draw you back.

For players like yourself, I’d suggest adopting at least 1 extra MMO of varying styles. I’m certain they could keep up decently with both. I wouldn’t suggest focusing on 1 as you’ll likely burn out all the same.

Blude.6812:

Manasa Devi.7958:

Andulias.9516:

Considering the official metrics, which show raids have been very popular, I’d say pretty confident.

Where are those official metrics?

Yes, I would like to see read those too.
Andulias please provide a link.

Me too. I want to see the Official metrics. Please post.

Comment: the only “metrics” I’ve seen are people pulling data off the gw2efficiency and using that information to show % of people doing raids. However for the purpose of seeing % of population that raids, data from that site is fundamentally flawed and biased. It’s a self selecting group of people who have both found that site and have generated an api key and registered. This group does not include many or most people who play casually and is not representative of the player base as a whole.

The only metric I saw was a red post saying that there were about 30% participation rate for raids. Don’t care enough to go digging for it.

Absurdo.8309:

Dashingsteel.3410:

Would you say that there are more people raiding now than people doing dungeons before the reward nerf? I would highly doubt it. So the metrics might be a little self-serving.

How popular would raiding be without the carrot?

The carrot is pretty bad, if you raid just for gold. I sometimes spend more in food than I get back from the reward. The rewards are also only weekly, mitigating its farm-ability. I personally raid for the challenge, the skins, and the (low) chance for ascended gear.

If you want to make gold, silverwastes chest train wins every time.

This answers why the legendary gear is raid exclusive. The gold is bad. The time sink can be large. Offer people another avenue to get Legendary Armor and no one will raid except for people that want the challenge and the challenge alone. Is that group large enough to justify raids on its own? I don’t think so.

ArenaNet went on record saying the raid team is fairly small. Raid exclusive skins are like fractal skins. A whole tier of gear(Legendary Armor)dedicated to raids that only a fraction of your population want to play? I can’t say as I agree with that line of thinking on ArenaNet’s part.

The raid should be dropping raid exclusive skins like the Fractals drop Fractal exclusive skins with Ascended items dropping frequently in raids like they can do in Fractals. Legendary Armor, like weapons should be available to everyone through other means.

At some point in time, I do wonder when this discussion became about legendary armor, instead of about then nature of raiding in MMOs as a whole.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

At some point in time, I do wonder when this discussion became about legendary armor, instead of about then nature of raiding in MMOs as a whole.

I think this quote by the OP started the discussion :

Does everyone deserve content for them. Sure they do. Does everyone deserve exclusive rewards just for their content that no one else can get because they’re looking for a different in game experience? That one I’m not so sure about.

Either way, I’m going to be posting less here, because raiders aren’t wrong for wanting focus on raids, PvPers aren’t wrong for wanting focus on PvP and people like me, we’re not wrong for not wanting to be driven into game modes that do not interest us just to get specific rewards.

The argument is that non raiders are not driven into raids because of legendary armor, as legendary armor is a prestige skin item. Rather, people like OP should complain about the content drought, which I agree is a problem. Not raids.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

The only metric I saw was a red post saying that there were about 30% participation rate for raids. Don’t care enough to go digging for it.

30% of what number? All accounts? All active accounts? All accounts that purchased HoT? All accounts that purchased HoT and are active? Such a stat is very ambiguous without context. For instance, 30% of all accounts would be a lot more than even have access to raids, which require HoT purchase. 30% of accounts that bought HoT would be (at a guess) ~100K accounts, which would only be about 7% of the claimed 1.5M monthly account logins pre-HoT.

Absurdo.8309:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

At some point in time, I do wonder when this discussion became about legendary armor, instead of about then nature of raiding in MMOs as a whole.

I think this quote by the OP started the discussion :

Does everyone deserve content for them. Sure they do. Does everyone deserve exclusive rewards just for their content that no one else can get because they’re looking for a different in game experience? That one I’m not so sure about.

Either way, I’m going to be posting less here, because raiders aren’t wrong for wanting focus on raids, PvPers aren’t wrong for wanting focus on PvP and people like me, we’re not wrong for not wanting to be driven into game modes that do not interest us just to get specific rewards.

The argument is that non raiders are not driven into raids because of legendary armor, as legendary armor is a prestige skin item. Rather, people like OP should complain about the content drought, which I agree is a problem. Not raids.

The OP’s post goes over so much more than just raid rewards, though. The discussion about legendary armor is distilling everything into its most extremes. Though I think that would be most easily solved just by making the armor pieces tradeable.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

The only metric I saw was a red post saying that there were about 30% participation rate for raids. Don’t care enough to go digging for it.

30% of what number? All accounts? All active accounts? All accounts that purchased HoT? All accounts that purchased HoT and are active? Such a stat is very ambiguous without context. For instance, 30% of all accounts would be a lot more than even have access to raids, which require HoT purchase. 30% of accounts that bought HoT would be (at a guess) ~100K accounts, which would only be about 7% of the claimed 1.5M monthly account logins pre-HoT.

Good question. Hell if I know. I’m did a small search trying to find the exact comment and didn’t see it, so I don’t know the exact wording. I would assume that it is either 30% of active accounts, or 30% of HoT accounts, as any other number would be silly.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Absurdo.8309:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

At some point in time, I do wonder when this discussion became about legendary armor, instead of about then nature of raiding in MMOs as a whole.

I think this quote by the OP started the discussion :

Does everyone deserve content for them. Sure they do. Does everyone deserve exclusive rewards just for their content that no one else can get because they’re looking for a different in game experience? That one I’m not so sure about.

Either way, I’m going to be posting less here, because raiders aren’t wrong for wanting focus on raids, PvPers aren’t wrong for wanting focus on PvP and people like me, we’re not wrong for not wanting to be driven into game modes that do not interest us just to get specific rewards.

The argument is that non raiders are not driven into raids because of legendary armor, as legendary armor is a prestige skin item. Rather, people like OP should complain about the content drought, which I agree is a problem. Not raids.

The OP’s post goes over so much more than just raid rewards, though. The discussion about legendary armor is distilling everything into its most extremes. Though I think that would be most easily solved just by making the armor pieces tradeable.

Oh, I agree. Raids were in the subtext of the OP though. And there’s this response by the OP (admittedly in a post where raids are called out). I personally think the content drought is the problem, not raids.

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

They didn’t push instanced content, they pushed open world content. That’s the point.

And this is still the case.

The raid team is less than 5% of the dev team. Raids are part of HoT and represent a small fraction of the expansion.

I agree with this. It doesn’t really have to do with what I’m talking about in my OP, though. This is simply a response to someone telling me why what I’m saying is essentially wrong. My argument isn’t that raids shouldn’t exist.

My argument is that specific rewards shouldn’t be locked behind them, as in an entire tier of gear, or functionality. They didn’t do it in Guild Wars 1, and I don’t really see the need to do this here.

It doesn’t matter if 1 person works on raids or 100, if people feel disenfranchised by having something in game that they simply can’t get without spending hours doing content they don’t like.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

At some point in time, I do wonder when this discussion became about legendary armor, instead of about then nature of raiding in MMOs as a whole.

That may be partially my fault and I apologize.

The OP does talk about so much more and I was hoping to get discussion going on making your characters more personalized to instill more personality to your character besides the whole skin-race that results in most people settling on a look like their wardrobe projectile vomitted on their character model.

Rather than poking holes in raids, gear tiers and what not, how about adding journals, character bios and other unique features to the game. shrug not the best ideas, just what was on the top of my head.

IMHO, While some have taken it that way, this thread was never about removing raids. It was always about giving a variety of people a place in this fine game.

I strongly support the idea of making Legendary armor tradeable.

Absurdo.8309:

Granted, I have no idea how many legendary insights (1 boss kill = 1 legendary insight) we’ll need to make the legendary.

According to devs, while exact number of insights is not decided yet, if you raid regularly since the beginning, by the time you finish the third wing and do all achievements you will have enough for one set. That is… a year?

Absurdo.8309:

That’s pretty quick compared to the pvp backpiece. Personally, it’ll take me three seasons to complete – that’s nine months. You mentioned it’s doable in five seasons – that’s over a year.

Actually, it’s doable in two, but you need to be good at pvp for this. 4-5 seasons is for those that are not good. Besides, getting legendary armor may not be that short either.

Absurdo.8309:

I think most players could beat a raid boss if they were given a year to do it.

I sincerely doubt it. You can’t just invest time in small chunks to raids and hope to get anywhere, like you can with pvp backpack. And beating a boss once will not be even close to enough.

Absurdo.8309:

Ultimately, legendary items are a prestige skin with the same stats as ascended. Personally, I would be ok if, eventually, there’s an alternate method to get legendary armor. Just like, eventually, we’ll be able to get the legendary backpiece from fractals. But beating raids is a prestige accomplishment. And legendary armor is an appropriate prestige award.

And that’s the problem. I don’t see any prestige here. I just see people that like one type of gameplay being treated better than people that prefer to have fun in different ways.
The legendary armor is not really a mark of prestige. It’s a mark that raiders are Anet’s preferred players. That Anet thinks that a huge majority of players that are supporting this game financially are second category citizens.
And considering that those second category citizens were the original target group for this game, while the raids were something lot of the players escaped from, you can guess how many people take that message very, very badly.

Leo G.4501:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

At some point in time, I do wonder when this discussion became about legendary armor, instead of about then nature of raiding in MMOs as a whole.

That may be partially my fault and I apologize.

The OP does talk about so much more and I was hoping to get discussion going on making your characters more personalized to instill more personality to your character besides the whole skin-race that results in most people settling on a look like their wardrobe projectile vomitted on their character model.

Rather than poking holes in raids, gear tiers and what not, how about adding journals, character bios and other unique features to the game. shrug not the best ideas, just what was on the top of my head.

I’m definitely all for character bios. Had them in CoH, and I want them here.

As far as characterization goes… I think one of the better things is also one of the harder things. The best way to personalize a toon is to make them operationally different. To invoke other MMOs (city of heroes again), the different classes weren’t just different in name. They were different in play. Picking up a controller (control/manipulation main, buffs secondary) was a completely different experience from playing a scrapper (melee main, armor secondary). Scrappers would flip out and kill things at point blank, taking on multiple foes at once. Controllers would divide and conquer, disabling and separating enemies while picking off targets one at a time.

The classes in GW2 are actually very homogenized. They have the ability to, at least to some extent, do everything, and the combat of nearly every class can be broken down into a 3 step process:

#1: Melee auto.
#2: Use skills higher than melee DPS when off cooldown.
#3: Use occasional utility skill/dodge if and when they are demanded.

End of every class strategy ever. When taken at its most basic elements, the only real difference between my thief and my engineer is how much I have to mash the keyboard to do DPS.

The reason why this is hard to fix is because this was intended by design. GW2 was made PVP-up. Each class was designed specifically to be capable of fighting off and beating any other class (give or take some “skill”) in numerous ways, and so a great divide between types of play between classes would run contrary to this design. It would create a paper > rock > scissors > effect that would lead to rage and ineptitude in the players.

The good news is, this is on the way to be fixed. By “on the way” I mean that elite specializations increase the divide between class types. While ranger and thief are scarily similar, Daredevil and Druid are quite different. As more elite specializations are released, the identity of the classes are going to become more separated, and their builds more personalized.

Hopefully elite specs will be released at a rate of more than 1 per xpac.

Andulias.9516:

I think I’ve made my point very clear – nobody is forcing you. Legendary armor is little more than a vanity item with a bit of added QoL. it’s not even in the game yet.

You are simply actively trying to put the blame somewhere, which is just kind of ridiculous.

“Oh no! I want Chak weapons, but the only way to get Chak weapons is by playing the TD meta”! is an argument that sounds rather stupid, doesn’kitten But it follows precisely your logic, Vayne.

Give up with this complete BS, Vayne. You. Don’t. NEED. Legendary armor. You don’t. Nobody does. It’s not required for anything. The entire basis of your argument is nothing but a balloon of hot air. Enough.

I still see NOTHING constructive here.

Ya know I’ve followed this thread closely and Vayne has been very diplomatic and a gentleman at the very least while conveying his stance.

There is no need for you to feel threatened just because your views may be different than his, or that many like myself agree and get what Vayne is saying. Step back and take a deep breath. Their is no need to go on the attack.

Andulias.9516:

I think I’ve made my point very clear – nobody is forcing you. Legendary armor is little more than a vanity item with a bit of added QoL. it’s not even in the game yet.

You are simply actively trying to put the blame somewhere, which is just kind of ridiculous.

“Oh no! I want Chak weapons, but the only way to get Chak weapons is by playing the TD meta”! is an argument that sounds rather stupid, doesn’kitten But it follows precisely your logic, Vayne.

Give up with this complete BS, Vayne. You. Don’t. NEED. Legendary armor. You don’t. Nobody does. It’s not required for anything. The entire basis of your argument is nothing but a balloon of hot air. Enough.

I still see NOTHING constructive here.

It’s okay if you see nothing constructive. That’s perfectly fine. But you’re not the ultimate arbiter of what’s constructive and what’s not. Other people see something constructive. In fact, you’re the only person who’s actually saying it’s non-constructive in the entire thread.

The FACT is (I know you like facts a lot), we’ve often had people ask for other ways to get stuff and I don’t ever remember seeing that as labeled non-constructive anywhere.

All I get from your post is that you don’t agree with it, so you think it’s non-constructive, and that’s fine. But that’s not what the term non-constructive means. I saw something I felt was a problem and I suggested a solution for that problem. That’s the very definition of constructive.

But this isn’t the main point of my post anyway. This post was really generated because I was tired of seeing people in other threads talking to people who don’t enjoy raiding and calling them lazy, or entitled, or saying they just want to press one to win. And you’re ignoring that, which is really my main issue.

elkirin.8534:

IMHO, While some have taken it that way, this thread was never about removing raids. It was always about giving a variety of people a place in this fine game.

I strongly support the idea of making Legendary armor tradeable.

That would be my preferred way of handling it as well. I mean if people can buy runs anyway, what’s really the difference.

For me, the difference is there’s no legitmate, Anet approved way to buy a run. Every time you do it, you’re actually taking a chance. Gold takes long enough to get in this game without risking it on paying someone for runs.

Buying the armor on the TP is at least safe to do. Because if I put up a lot of money and got stung, I’d want to leave the game…so I’ll probably never do it.

Sird.4536:

How many topics need to be done about raids and legendary armour lol

This topic isn’t really about raids and legendary armor. It’s about the background some of us having coming to this game. Raids are certainly a part of that discussion and once people start attacking that one point, of course I’m going to defend it.

But this is more about people on the forum who come from different backgrounds slinging mud at each other without trying to understand where the other people come from.

I get why people like raids, I get why people like PvP. I also get why I don’t like either. This isn’t about just raids, or just PvP. And if people would stop attacking those smaller points, the thread would be about what I’d intended it to be about.

I don’t say you shouldn’t like raids, and I don’t say you shouldn’t like PvP. But Anet needs to understand too that some of us come here for very different reasons, and we want them to think about that when they make decisions moving forward that affect everyone.

The content drought that’s going on right now is really only a content drought if you don’t like PvP or you don’t like raiding. Otherwise, it’s not a content drought at all. And some people think we just just shut up and raid or shut up and PvP.

Well I’ve tried both. I’ve put hours into raids already, and haven’t really enjoyed it. And I’ve put hours into PvP, which I continue to do, because I can do it in small doses, but it’s beginning to sour me on the game as a whole. I’m not having fun.

But it’s not because I’m lazy. It’s not because I want to press 1 and win. And it’s not because I’m entitled. That’s the main thing I hope people take away from this thread.

I’m not having fun because I don’t enjoy those activities, and I know for a fact, I’m not alone. The idea that specific rewards are placed behind content I don’t enjoy is a sort of like adding insult to injury. In and of itself it’s not important.

But then my group of people went from getting upgrades every two weeks to getting upgrades four times a year and that’s a fairly big change.

Why is anyone surprised there’d be some sort of backlash?

Leo G.4501:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

At some point in time, I do wonder when this discussion became about legendary armor, instead of about then nature of raiding in MMOs as a whole.

That may be partially my fault and I apologize.

The OP does talk about so much more and I was hoping to get discussion going on making your characters more personalized to instill more personality to your character besides the whole skin-race that results in most people settling on a look like their wardrobe projectile vomitted on their character model.

ArenaNet did away with the “RPG” personality element (Heart, Crown, Fist) a long time ago and it ain’t coming back—in it’s previous form or an updated one.

Pure Heart.1456:

Leo G.4501:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

At some point in time, I do wonder when this discussion became about legendary armor, instead of about then nature of raiding in MMOs as a whole.

That may be partially my fault and I apologize.

The OP does talk about so much more and I was hoping to get discussion going on making your characters more personalized to instill more personality to your character besides the whole skin-race that results in most people settling on a look like their wardrobe projectile vomitted on their character model.

ArenaNet did away with the “RPG” personality element (Heart, Crown, Fist) a long time ago and it ain’t coming back—in it’s previous form or an updated one.

My characters all have personality but the game, as it’s laid out, really doesn’t support it well. The stories that you create are often at odds with the story the game lays out for you and that’s a problem for me. So within the boundaries of the game, I do the best I can. Different characters will make different choices based on who they are. What order will they join? What mission will they choose? How will they look? What minipet will be theirs. That sort of thing.

But I have well over 30 characters and that only goes so far.

MMOs should take a page from Minecraft, no missions, quests, objectives or story. Just a open world for you to explore and build stuff. Don’t give players content, give them the tools so they make their own content.

I would end GW2 with a dragons wiping the everything. Then in GW3, each race has to rebuild their empires, the entire Tyria is free for all. Old alliances between races have broken down, they now compete with each other over land and resources. Players can build structures anywhere, from small cottages by single players, to megacities by thousands of players that act as social hubs.

Some structures will perish but some may survive years of RvR conflict, and players in three years time still hangout in a city made by XYZ guild at launch.

defrule.7236:

MMOs should take a page from Minecraft, no missions, quests, objectives or story. Just a open world for you to explore and build stuff. Don’t give players content, give them the tools so they make their own content.

I would end GW2 with a dragons wiping the everything. Then in GW3, each race has to rebuild their empires, the entire Tyria is free for all. Old alliances between races have broken down, they now compete with each other over land and resources. Players can build structures anywhere, from small cottages by single players, to megacities by thousands of players that act as social hubs.

Some structures will perish but some may survive years of RvR conflict, and players in three years time still hangout in a city made by XYZ guild at launch.

What you’re describing is a sandbox MMO. What we’re playing is a themepark MMO. You’d probably be happier with a sandbox.

The problem for me is most sandboxes are about open world PvP and that’s just not my thing.

Astralporing.1957:

Absurdo.8309:

Ultimately, legendary items are a prestige skin with the same stats as ascended. Personally, I would be ok if, eventually, there’s an alternate method to get legendary armor. Just like, eventually, we’ll be able to get the legendary backpiece from fractals. But beating raids is a prestige accomplishment. And legendary armor is an appropriate prestige award.

And that’s the problem. I don’t see any prestige here. I just see people that like one type of gameplay being treated better than people that prefer to have fun in different ways.
The legendary armor is not really a mark of prestige. It’s a mark that raiders are Anet’s preferred players. That Anet thinks that a huge majority of players that are supporting this game financially are second category citizens.
And considering that those second category citizens were the original target group for this game, while the raids were something lot of the players escaped from, you can guess how many people take that message very, very badly.

You’re doing your side no favors by advancing this argument. Please explain how legendary items are not prestige, when they have the same stats as ascended, and generally require a large amount of effort to acquire.

You can only get the new legendary weapons through HOT maps. Does that make everyone else a second class citizen? You can only get the pvp legendary through pvp. Does that make everyone else a second class citizen? You can only the legendary fractal backpiece through fractals. Does that make everyone else a second class citizen?

I get that you’ve run out of things to do in this game. So you want to go for legendary armor. But, really, it is a prestige item. Don’t blame raids for the current content drought.

Absurdo.8309:

Astralporing.1957:

Absurdo.8309:

Ultimately, legendary items are a prestige skin with the same stats as ascended. Personally, I would be ok if, eventually, there’s an alternate method to get legendary armor. Just like, eventually, we’ll be able to get the legendary backpiece from fractals. But beating raids is a prestige accomplishment. And legendary armor is an appropriate prestige award.

And that’s the problem. I don’t see any prestige here. I just see people that like one type of gameplay being treated better than people that prefer to have fun in different ways.
The legendary armor is not really a mark of prestige. It’s a mark that raiders are Anet’s preferred players. That Anet thinks that a huge majority of players that are supporting this game financially are second category citizens.
And considering that those second category citizens were the original target group for this game, while the raids were something lot of the players escaped from, you can guess how many people take that message very, very badly.

You’re doing your side no favors by advancing this argument. Please explain how legendary items are not prestige, when they have the same stats as ascended, and generally require a large amount of effort to acquire.

You can only get the new legendary weapons through HOT maps. Does that make everyone else a second class citizen? You can only get the pvp legendary through pvp. Does that make everyone else a second class citizen? You can only the legendary fractal backpiece through fractals. Does that make everyone else a second class citizen?

I get that you’ve run out of things to do in this game. So you want to go for legendary armor. But, really, it is a prestige item. Don’t blame raids for the current content drought.

That’s the difference between you and me. I’m not trying to do any side any favors. I’m talking about how I feel.

Vayne.8563:

Sird.4536:

How many topics need to be done about raids and legendary armour lol

This topic isn’t really about raids and legendary armor. It’s about the background some of us having coming to this game. Raids are certainly a part of that discussion and once people start attacking that one point, of course I’m going to defend it.

But this is more about people on the forum who come from different backgrounds slinging mud at each other without trying to understand where the other people come from.

I get why people like raids, I get why people like PvP. I also get why I don’t like either. This isn’t about just raids, or just PvP. And if people would stop attacking those smaller points, the thread would be about what I’d intended it to be about.

I don’t say you shouldn’t like raids, and I don’t say you shouldn’t like PvP. But Anet needs to understand too that some of us come here for very different reasons, and we want them to think about that when they make decisions moving forward that affect everyone.

The content drought that’s going on right now is really only a content drought if you don’t like PvP or you don’t like raiding. Otherwise, it’s not a content drought at all. And some people think we just just shut up and raid or shut up and PvP.

Well I’ve tried both. I’ve put hours into raids already, and haven’t really enjoyed it. And I’ve put hours into PvP, which I continue to do, because I can do it in small doses, but it’s beginning to sour me on the game as a whole. I’m not having fun.

But it’s not because I’m lazy. It’s not because I want to press 1 and win. And it’s not because I’m entitled. That’s the main thing I hope people take away from this thread.

I’m not having fun because I don’t enjoy those activities, and I know for a fact, I’m not alone. The idea that specific rewards are placed behind content I don’t enjoy is a sort of like adding insult to injury. In and of itself it’s not important.

But then my group of people went from getting upgrades every two weeks to getting upgrades four times a year and that’s a fairly big change.

Why is anyone surprised there’d be some sort of backlash?

In an attempt to be constructive, what do you actually want? What is your “list of demands?”

If you want more pve content, like living world, then I am 100% on board. If you want more map events, like the destruction of lions arch, then I’m 100% on board. This kind of content is way overdue.

I think you start to lose people when you ask for access or easier access to certain skins. That’s where “entitled” or “press 1 to receive loot” gets thrown around. Guild wars 2 end game rewards are all about skins, since there is no gear treadmill. Exclusive skins can serve as an adequate reward for content.

Every area of the game has some exclusive skins tied to it. Ambrite collection. Chak collection. Wvw armor. Guild armor. Fractal weapons. Glorious armor. Pvp backpiece. Christmas and Halloween skins. And more and more …

This could be the “problem” you’re railing against. But I haven’t seen this sort of backlash since raids. I truly think it’s the content drought. And I agree that’s a problem.

Absurdo.8309:

Vayne.8563:

Sird.4536:

How many topics need to be done about raids and legendary armour lol

This topic isn’t really about raids and legendary armor. It’s about the background some of us having coming to this game. Raids are certainly a part of that discussion and once people start attacking that one point, of course I’m going to defend it.

But this is more about people on the forum who come from different backgrounds slinging mud at each other without trying to understand where the other people come from.

I get why people like raids, I get why people like PvP. I also get why I don’t like either. This isn’t about just raids, or just PvP. And if people would stop attacking those smaller points, the thread would be about what I’d intended it to be about.

I don’t say you shouldn’t like raids, and I don’t say you shouldn’t like PvP. But Anet needs to understand too that some of us come here for very different reasons, and we want them to think about that when they make decisions moving forward that affect everyone.

The content drought that’s going on right now is really only a content drought if you don’t like PvP or you don’t like raiding. Otherwise, it’s not a content drought at all. And some people think we just just shut up and raid or shut up and PvP.

Well I’ve tried both. I’ve put hours into raids already, and haven’t really enjoyed it. And I’ve put hours into PvP, which I continue to do, because I can do it in small doses, but it’s beginning to sour me on the game as a whole. I’m not having fun.

But it’s not because I’m lazy. It’s not because I want to press 1 and win. And it’s not because I’m entitled. That’s the main thing I hope people take away from this thread.

I’m not having fun because I don’t enjoy those activities, and I know for a fact, I’m not alone. The idea that specific rewards are placed behind content I don’t enjoy is a sort of like adding insult to injury. In and of itself it’s not important.

But then my group of people went from getting upgrades every two weeks to getting upgrades four times a year and that’s a fairly big change.

Why is anyone surprised there’d be some sort of backlash?

In an attempt to be constructive, what do you actually want? What is your “list of demands?”

If you want more pve content, like living world, then I am 100% on board. If you want more map events, like the destruction of lions arch, then I’m 100% on board. This kind of content is way overdue.

I think you start to lose people when you ask for access or easier access to certain skins. That’s where “entitled” or “press 1 to receive loot” gets thrown around. Guild wars 2 end game rewards are all about skins, since there is no gear treadmill. Exclusive skins can serve as an adequate reward for content.

Every area of the game has some exclusive skins tied to it. Ambrite collection. Chak collection. Wvw armor. Guild armor. Fractal weapons. Glorious armor. Pvp backpiece. Christmas and Halloween skins. And more and more …

This could be the “problem” you’re railing against. But I haven’t seen this sort of backlash since raids. I truly think it’s the content drought. And I agree that’s a problem.

I’m not asking for EASIER anything. I’m asking for different. And again, if you add functionality it’s no longer just a skin and that’s a fact.

Sure I’d like more to do. And if I had stuff to do, this post probably wouldn’t have been made. But I don’t and it has.

There’s a very real perception from causal players that this game is moving in a direction they don’t like. I mean I’m not the first or only guy talking about this. Some are playing less, like me. Some are leaving.

But organizing 10 people to do something, or having to be there on a schedule was not something I signed up for when I bought this game and until now I haven’t needed to do that.

Now I do. The game has changed. It has become less casual to me. And that is a problem for me, whether you think I’m just asking for easy rewards or not.

If they continue to bang rewards behind raids, people will start to think this game isn’t for them, because they didn’t have that barrier before. People will become disenfranchised, fair or unfair.

Vayne.8563:

Absurdo.8309:

Vayne.8563:

Sird.4536:

How many topics need to be done about raids and legendary armour lol

This topic isn’t really about raids and legendary armor. It’s about the background some of us having coming to this game. Raids are certainly a part of that discussion and once people start attacking that one point, of course I’m going to defend it.

But this is more about people on the forum who come from different backgrounds slinging mud at each other without trying to understand where the other people come from.

I get why people like raids, I get why people like PvP. I also get why I don’t like either. This isn’t about just raids, or just PvP. And if people would stop attacking those smaller points, the thread would be about what I’d intended it to be about.

I don’t say you shouldn’t like raids, and I don’t say you shouldn’t like PvP. But Anet needs to understand too that some of us come here for very different reasons, and we want them to think about that when they make decisions moving forward that affect everyone.

The content drought that’s going on right now is really only a content drought if you don’t like PvP or you don’t like raiding. Otherwise, it’s not a content drought at all. And some people think we just just shut up and raid or shut up and PvP.

Well I’ve tried both. I’ve put hours into raids already, and haven’t really enjoyed it. And I’ve put hours into PvP, which I continue to do, because I can do it in small doses, but it’s beginning to sour me on the game as a whole. I’m not having fun.

But it’s not because I’m lazy. It’s not because I want to press 1 and win. And it’s not because I’m entitled. That’s the main thing I hope people take away from this thread.

I’m not having fun because I don’t enjoy those activities, and I know for a fact, I’m not alone. The idea that specific rewards are placed behind content I don’t enjoy is a sort of like adding insult to injury. In and of itself it’s not important.

But then my group of people went from getting upgrades every two weeks to getting upgrades four times a year and that’s a fairly big change.

Why is anyone surprised there’d be some sort of backlash?

In an attempt to be constructive, what do you actually want? What is your “list of demands?”

If you want more pve content, like living world, then I am 100% on board. If you want more map events, like the destruction of lions arch, then I’m 100% on board. This kind of content is way overdue.

I think you start to lose people when you ask for access or easier access to certain skins. That’s where “entitled” or “press 1 to receive loot” gets thrown around. Guild wars 2 end game rewards are all about skins, since there is no gear treadmill. Exclusive skins can serve as an adequate reward for content.

Every area of the game has some exclusive skins tied to it. Ambrite collection. Chak collection. Wvw armor. Guild armor. Fractal weapons. Glorious armor. Pvp backpiece. Christmas and Halloween skins. And more and more …

This could be the “problem” you’re railing against. But I haven’t seen this sort of backlash since raids. I truly think it’s the content drought. And I agree that’s a problem.

I’m not asking for EASIER anything. I’m asking for different. And again, if you add functionality it’s no longer just a skin and that’s a fact.

Sure I’d like more to do. And if I had stuff to do, this post probably wouldn’t have been made. But I don’t and it has.

There’s a very real perception from causal players that this game is moving in a direction they don’t like. I mean I’m not the first or only guy talking about this. Some are playing less, like me. Some are leaving.

But organizing 10 people to do something, or having to be there on a schedule was not something I signed up for when I bought this game and until now I haven’t needed to do that.

Now I do. The game has changed. It has become less casual to me. And that is a problem for me, whether you think I’m just asking for easy rewards or not.

If they continue to bang rewards behind raids, people will start to think this game isn’t for them, because they didn’t have that barrier before. People will become disenfranchised, fair or unfair.

I’m also on board with a different method to acquire (different) legendary armor. Eventually. Apparently legendary items take a long time to develop. Only 3 new weapons so far. Fractal legendary not complete. Raid legendary not complete. I’d rather have legendary armor behind raids, for the time being, than not have it at all. And I do think it’s a proper prestige award for the content. I know we disagree on the value of changing stats on legendaries. (Again, it’s mostly useless as long as runes and sigils are in play).

I also agree that 30 minute causal content is really lacking right now. I think this is where we find common ground. Sometimes, I don’t want to play for long periods of time. What are my choices? HOT map metas? Too long. Dungeons? Not really after the nerf. Fractals? A swamp snore fest. Really only pvp, which doesn’t help much for pve players.

Like you said, it’s ok for people to like raids, as I do. But I think it’s ok for raids to have exclusive rewards, including legendaries. I also think raids get a lot of unjustified flak, because they are very polished for the content they offer. I don’t think raids are endemic of the problem. The content drought is the problem.

I’d like to add that many of the casual players are also quiet players. We will simply become frustrated with a game we used to like and then leave or cut down on playing. Many of us won’t complain about it much. Frankly, we tend to have pretty busy lives and would rather find something to enjoy than waste recreational time complaining.

As of late, I find that I just login and logout. I’ve been trying to rekindle my love of the game by taking my time leveling a new character through exploration of the world. There’s sort of a mournful feeling as I’m doing so. I’m really glad I’ve played so slowly through the game in general. I pre-purchased and beta testing and all that jazz, but only recently bothered to achieve world completion on my main- and she got to level 80 without ever seeing a dragon, doing her personal story, entering a level 80 zone, or even exploring outside the norn areas. I used to frequently solo the Frozen Maw chain and had a BLAST doing so. There were so many events I simply enjoyed doing, niches to explore, and NPC conversations to listen to. I used to actually read the mails I received with a heart completion and talk to every NPC I met. I’ve purchased way too many gems. But I was okay with that because I was enjoying the game (no harm on spending money on a hobby you enjoy).

I am one of the players that hasn’t bothered to purchase HoT yet. When I learned that it was a constant cycle of events… sure that can be fun for a while but… why would I want my exploration of an entire area to be so limited? I enjoy the events in places like Silverwastes for a little while, and then I get tired of the constant pushing. I’m still not sure if I want to pay for something like that which I won’t really enjoy. I would love to help my guildies out and learn to raid- but half the reason I don’t do fractals is that I simply don’t have the play time to devote to even a fractal run. I certainly don’t have time for a raid.

Of course I’m glad that players can have raids, pvp, and wvw at their disposal. I’m glad of it when I have time for such things. I wish I could have more casual play introduced too. I choose to think that in the long run, we will (because I’m happier thinking such a thing). One day I’ll buy HoT, but not today. I just don’t see how it will be ‘fun’ for me and therefore worth spending my money.

Personally I think that’s what this topic boils down to, that there are different ways to have fun in a game, and the casual player hasn’t been given anything really fun to do lately. In fact, a lot of the fun stuff has become not so fun. The things that are advertised as being fun, or fun things to have, are blocked by very un-fun things. That doesn’t mean I’m going to ‘ragequit’ (what casual player has the kind of reaction anyway??), it just means I’ll stop trying to reach for any of that stuff- because it simply isn’t fun for me. I still haven’t tried to complete specific achievements. It is more fun to have it happen organically as part of my normal play. That was how GW2 was advertised to be. It has simply been moving in a different direction of late. If I can’t ever reach goals set by the game through normal, casual gameplay, where’s the fun in that?

I’m just sad that raids are obviously here to stay. That means a significant percentage of the development resources are being poured into the raids, which is a direct correlation to the percentage of how less frequently we get updates to the world content that this game was initially designed for.

Esquilax.3491:

I’m just sad that raids are obviously here to stay. That means a significant percentage of the development resources are being poured into the raids, which is a direct correlation to the percentage of how less frequently we get updates to the world content that this game was initially designed for.

This is false. There are 120 devs working on live game, 70 devs on expansion 2, and 30 devs on core teams that support both. In the 120 developer team, 5 developers work on raids, with some support from the 30-developer team (who also work on other stuff).

Source https://redd.it/48zlyd

Absurdo.8309:

Vayne.8563:

Absurdo.8309:

Vayne.8563:

Sird.4536:

How many topics need to be done about raids and legendary armour lol

This topic isn’t really about raids and legendary armor. It’s about the background some of us having coming to this game. Raids are certainly a part of that discussion and once people start attacking that one point, of course I’m going to defend it.

But this is more about people on the forum who come from different backgrounds slinging mud at each other without trying to understand where the other people come from.

I get why people like raids, I get why people like PvP. I also get why I don’t like either. This isn’t about just raids, or just PvP. And if people would stop attacking those smaller points, the thread would be about what I’d intended it to be about.

I don’t say you shouldn’t like raids, and I don’t say you shouldn’t like PvP. But Anet needs to understand too that some of us come here for very different reasons, and we want them to think about that when they make decisions moving forward that affect everyone.

The content drought that’s going on right now is really only a content drought if you don’t like PvP or you don’t like raiding. Otherwise, it’s not a content drought at all. And some people think we just just shut up and raid or shut up and PvP.

Well I’ve tried both. I’ve put hours into raids already, and haven’t really enjoyed it. And I’ve put hours into PvP, which I continue to do, because I can do it in small doses, but it’s beginning to sour me on the game as a whole. I’m not having fun.

But it’s not because I’m lazy. It’s not because I want to press 1 and win. And it’s not because I’m entitled. That’s the main thing I hope people take away from this thread.

I’m not having fun because I don’t enjoy those activities, and I know for a fact, I’m not alone. The idea that specific rewards are placed behind content I don’t enjoy is a sort of like adding insult to injury. In and of itself it’s not important.

But then my group of people went from getting upgrades every two weeks to getting upgrades four times a year and that’s a fairly big change.

Why is anyone surprised there’d be some sort of backlash?

In an attempt to be constructive, what do you actually want? What is your “list of demands?”

If you want more pve content, like living world, then I am 100% on board. If you want more map events, like the destruction of lions arch, then I’m 100% on board. This kind of content is way overdue.

I think you start to lose people when you ask for access or easier access to certain skins. That’s where “entitled” or “press 1 to receive loot” gets thrown around. Guild wars 2 end game rewards are all about skins, since there is no gear treadmill. Exclusive skins can serve as an adequate reward for content.

Every area of the game has some exclusive skins tied to it. Ambrite collection. Chak collection. Wvw armor. Guild armor. Fractal weapons. Glorious armor. Pvp backpiece. Christmas and Halloween skins. And more and more …

This could be the “problem” you’re railing against. But I haven’t seen this sort of backlash since raids. I truly think it’s the content drought. And I agree that’s a problem.

I’m not asking for EASIER anything. I’m asking for different. And again, if you add functionality it’s no longer just a skin and that’s a fact.

Sure I’d like more to do. And if I had stuff to do, this post probably wouldn’t have been made. But I don’t and it has.

There’s a very real perception from causal players that this game is moving in a direction they don’t like. I mean I’m not the first or only guy talking about this. Some are playing less, like me. Some are leaving.

But organizing 10 people to do something, or having to be there on a schedule was not something I signed up for when I bought this game and until now I haven’t needed to do that.

Now I do. The game has changed. It has become less casual to me. And that is a problem for me, whether you think I’m just asking for easy rewards or not.

If they continue to bang rewards behind raids, people will start to think this game isn’t for them, because they didn’t have that barrier before. People will become disenfranchised, fair or unfair.

I’m also on board with a different method to acquire (different) legendary armor. Eventually. Apparently legendary items take a long time to develop. Only 3 new weapons so far. Fractal legendary not complete. Raid legendary not complete. I’d rather have legendary armor behind raids, for the time being, than not have it at all. And I do think it’s a proper prestige award for the content. I know we disagree on the value of changing stats on legendaries. (Again, it’s mostly useless as long as runes and sigils are in play).

I also agree that 30 minute causal content is really lacking right now. I think this is where we find common ground. Sometimes, I don’t want to play for long periods of time. What are my choices? HOT map metas? Too long. Dungeons? Not really after the nerf. Fractals? A swamp snore fest. Really only pvp, which doesn’t help much for pve players.

Like you said, it’s ok for people to like raids, as I do. But I think it’s ok for raids to have exclusive rewards, including legendaries. I also think raids get a lot of unjustified flak, because they are very polished for the content they offer. I don’t think raids are endemic of the problem. The content drought is the problem.

I wouldn’t are if I didn’t get a legendary skin at all. If I could upgrade an ascended item so that it could switch stats without changing skins, I’d probably be happy. I’m happy for raids to have their minipets. and their special skins. But once you add functionality to it, it’s a very least a slippery slope. And I feel the same about stat sets.

I’m sure over time this will all blow over, but in the mean time, there are people frustrated with the game at the moment. I mean, people usually identify me as a white knight. I’m not prone to complain about this game.

But I’m also sure that Anet is working on stuff that will be for me again.

Absurdo.8309:

Esquilax.3491:

I’m just sad that raids are obviously here to stay. That means a significant percentage of the development resources are being poured into the raids, which is a direct correlation to the percentage of how less frequently we get updates to the world content that this game was initially designed for.

This is false. There are 120 devs working on live game, 70 devs on expansion 2, and 30 devs on core teams that support both. In the 120 developer team, 5 developers work on raids, with some support from the 30-developer team (who also work on other stuff).

Source https://redd.it/48zlyd

Read closer. That was 5-6 people working on a single wing. Not the whole raid team.

Absurdo.8309:

You’re doing your side no favors by advancing this argument. Please explain how legendary items are not prestige, when they have the same stats as ascended, and generally require a large amount of effort to acquire.

Prestige must come from something. You obviously believe that doing raids is something that confers that prestige, that this content is somehow better than others. I don’t. Legendary armor is a sign that you are a raider, but that does not give you any prestige at all. It just shows you like different things than i do.

Absurdo.8309:

You can only get the new legendary weapons through HOT maps. Does that make everyone else a second class citizen?

There are core legendary weapons.

Absurdo.8309:

You can only get the pvp legendary through pvp. Does that make everyone else a second class citizen?

There’s a fractal backpiece. And the backpack acquisition is finetuned so that anyone can get it. You don’t have to be a good pvp player.

Absurdo.8309:

You can only the legendary fractal backpiece through fractals. Does that make everyone else a second class citizen?

Again, there’s also the pvp backpack, and (also again) the acquisition is so far designed that you don’t need to go into higher fractals.

Both the pvp and fractal backpieces are here to entice you to try out the content, but don’t require you to be good at it, and if you’ll find the content no fun, you’d still be able to get it without putting too much effort into it.

Absurdo.8309:

I get that you’ve run out of things to do in this game. So you want to go for legendary armor. But, really, it is a prestige item. Don’t blame raids for the current content drought.

Raids do not confer prestige.

Astralporing.1957:

Absurdo.8309:

Esquilax.3491:

I’m just sad that raids are obviously here to stay. That means a significant percentage of the development resources are being poured into the raids, which is a direct correlation to the percentage of how less frequently we get updates to the world content that this game was initially designed for.

This is false. There are 120 devs working on live game, 70 devs on expansion 2, and 30 devs on core teams that support both. In the 120 developer team, 5 developers work on raids, with some support from the 30-developer team (who also work on other stuff).

Source https://redd.it/48zlyd

Read closer. That was 5-6 people working on a single wing. Not the whole raid team.

Even if that’s the case, thinking that simply shifting the members of that team over to the LW team will increase the amount of open world content being pumped out is flawed. Simply throwing more people at a problem doesn’t always get the job done better/faster/at a greater quantity. Too many cooks spoil the broth, so to speak. Only Anet knows how many cooks they need, what kind of cooks they need, and where best to focus each of those cooks.

Astralporing.1957:

Raids do not confer prestige.

MMO prestige tends to hover about difficult or rarely obtained items. Actual prestige is invisible as it’s something you acknowledge within a person. You respect and admire people for achievement in the face of adversity for honorable achievements. Anything in an MMO isn’t actually prestigious.

But I feel the term for the context of these games might come from Prestige Classes from your tabletop RPGs as some prestige classes weren’t any better than regular classes but requirements were required.

Video game prestige is merely an acknowledgement that someone did something. It’s not that they did something honorable, outside the norm or even that they did something difficult. You just did it. In that sense of the term, doing raids for some skin IS prestige just like all the other rare drop skins that you had to farm for weeks and weeks that I don’t have.

All it takes is for someone to acknowledge for something to be prestigious. To me? Most of the skins in this game aren’t that interesting and/or samey and no matter how hard I try I can’t make characters look how I want (not even a little) so most skins aren’t prestigious to me (and I likely won’t really acknowledge them much unless you really stand out). To others? They will spend real money for these things! They matter and carry some sense of prestige.

tl;dr: Raiding is prestigious by proxy of the rewards they provide and the difficulty of the content and the rarity of acquisition of said rewards. This is standard MMO fare. Want to make an achievement or content prestigious? Put a skin or something at the end and suddenly it’s visual MMO prestige.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I’m definitely all for character bios. Had them in CoH, and I want them here.

I also wouldn’t mind a kind of character journal that kind of keeps track of choices you make. And a bit more then written in it about how those choices affect others around you to understand NPCs better. It doesn’t have to change how the actual mission branch goes, it’d just be dialog saying “I decided to [insert choice] and suchandsuch seem very distant so I talked to them when there was a lull in activity…”

As far as characterization goes… I think one of the better things is also one of the harder things. The best way to personalize a toon is to make them operationally different. To invoke other MMOs (city of heroes again), the different classes weren’t just different in name. They were different in play. Picking up a controller (control/manipulation main, buffs secondary) was a completely different experience from playing a scrapper (melee main, armor secondary). Scrappers would flip out and kill things at point blank, taking on multiple foes at once. Controllers would divide and conquer, disabling and separating enemies while picking off targets one at a time.

The classes in GW2 are actually very homogenized. They have the ability to, at least to some extent, do everything, and the combat of nearly every class can be broken down into a 3 step process:

…

…

…

The good news is, this is on the way to be fixed. By “on the way” I mean that elite specializations increase the divide between class types. While ranger and thief are scarily similar, Daredevil and Druid are quite different. As more elite specializations are released, the identity of the classes are going to become more separated, and their builds more personalized.

Hopefully elite specs will be released at a rate of more than 1 per xpac.

The thing is, I feel the game was worse back with the old build system were you could put your points into any of the lines. Now, it’s a commitment to pick a trait line and they fixed a lot of Grandmaster traits to perform better. I think they should still be improving the GMs more though. They should be monumental cornerstones to builds, drastically changing how you use your skills in conjunction with each other.

After playing Blade and Soul, I actually find their system to be quite good, were putting points into individual skills actually give the skills drastically different properties or even outright changing the skill to something else! All while actually keeping the classes’ identities in tact (the Force Master won’t ever be that ‘Scrapper’ type rushing into the middle and killing stuff but the properties of all your skills allow variety of play; Kungfu Masters won’t ever be the mid/long range nuker but stick to close range with all its gap closers).

But there is the difference in that GW2 classes have multiple weapons to choose from while BnS only has the 1 weapon with all its skills attached to it. I still think the devs could add to their system to give a bit more individuality…like if your skills had extras onto the skills or alter them but you can only choose 4 out of your 10+ weapon skills to change.

Most of the times it all comes down to tastes, and I’m not going to be judgmental. I’ll just say they just don’t know how to balance the flow of content. Not sure if they ever will.