Guild Wars 2

I was thinking for a long time and due to the upcoming expansion came again on my mind…

Why instead of increasing level on char further above lvl 80 or reforming the trait system we are not thinking of a concept with sub-classes?

example:

Primary class “Guardian” at lvl 80 can also choose as a sub-class to be a “Warrior” too with maybe a smaller lvl cap at 40 or even 20.

Now the guardian can use also shield using the shield skills of a warrior….

Any thoughts or am i too crazy!!!

You are too crazy. This would create loads of stupidly OP builds and make balancing even more of a nightmare than it is now.

They had multi-classing in Guild Wars 1.
It was basically impossible to balance. Thus it is very unlikely that they will add something like that in this game.

They had this in Guild Wars 1, and you could access all of their skills, but still had to use your main class’ armor and weapons.

What you are describing is not subclassing but multiclassing. At least one Anet developer has admitted they like the idea of subclassing. However the company as a whole has said they will not even consider multiclassing, it is both impossible to balance and ruins the iconism and identity of each individual class.

If there ever is any type of subclass system, it will be with each professions having their own subclasses and ability paths rather than shared between them.

Everyone will pick thief to be able to stealth because it’s such a broken skill.

Morsus.5106:

They had this in Guild Wars 1, and you could access all of their skills, but still had to use your main class’ armor and weapons.

You only had to use your main class’ armor, you could use any weapon you wanted even if your class had no attribute line or skills for it

foufos.4809:

I was thinking for a long time and due to the upcoming expansion came again on my mind…

Why instead of increasing level on char further above lvl 80 or reforming the trait system we are not thinking of a concept with sub-classes?

example:

Primary class “Guardian” at lvl 80 can also choose as a sub-class to be a “Warrior” too with maybe a smaller lvl cap at 40 or even 20.

Now the guardian can use also shield using the shield skills of a warrior….

Any thoughts or am i too crazy!!!

Isn`t that the FFXI method?
I like it there, however I do not think it would fit here. Mostly because there it had a lot of complexity and synergy. I don`t think GW2 is on that level, or suited for that.

Though, as others have mentioned, GW1 had dual-classes. However due to the mass an abilities it was a nightmare to balance. A reason why we have very few abilities now and they are very touchy and carefull with rolling out more (instead of steamrolling us every two years with dozens in every new iteration)

Well, first of all “Conncept” was right what i was suggesting was more like multiclass and less as subclass, secondary i was a little bit confused on why will be something like that so unbalance…classes are supposed to already as balanced as they can be right now so multiclass in my opinion will be just interesting!

Anyway, i’m just trying to think “out of the box”!!!

There was talk about ascend classes where you could as an example they put forwarded making a ranger into a druid. If we get a sub class like system i think its going to be more like that so more of a super class (above class not stronger) and not a sub class.

P1: (silly word limit, ANet couldn’t you increase it or change to unlimited to just reduce double postings :P)
Sub Classes is and will always be my Main Topic Number One, which I will follow and support here, whenever possible as its in fact for me personalyl the absolute best way how Anet could improve this game in a massive way for its future in regard of its current huge lack of Character progression and that since Game Release on ANet has nearly done anything at all for horizontal Character Progression and if they wouldn’t have added the Ascended Equipment, then they would have done nearly anythign at all for any kind of progression for this Game within those two and a half years by now soon, what would be really sad for this Game.

GW2 needs Level Cap Increases (must not come together with Equipment Progression that everyone fears so much, this Game needs Sub Classes, it needs more Weapon Categories that are missing (Great Axes, Whips, Polearms, Claws, Crossbows, Quarterstaves, Flails, Tower Shields, splitting Foci into Artefacts & Relics to provide there more Skill Varity), this Game needs Visual Progression (Skill Skins, for example changing the Looks of Necromancer Mininos, changign the Looks of Elementalist Summons, changing the Looks, of Mesmer Phantasms and Shatter Effects, changign the Look of Engineer Turrets, changing the Look of Guardian Spiritual Weapons, changing the Look of Ranger Pets/Nature Spirits, changing the Look of Thief Guildies and changign the Look of Warrior Bursts ect for the simple beginning…

Heck, I strongly believe in it, that there was a very good reason for it, why anet made up for the very first CDI the topic all about Horizontal Progression and if it wouldn’t have been cause of me, I think that the topic about Sub Classes wouldn’t have made any such high waves at all, to the point that the Lead Developer of that CDI Stuff, who started all of it – Chris Whiteside – officially admitted to all of us, that he likes the idea of Sub Classes for this Game as a part of horizontal Character Progression.
This naturally doesn’t mean that its some kind of promise or somethign like that, what alot of people often seem to like reading between the lines from such comments as confirments that somethign iwll be made, but it least showed to me, that the idea in itself made enough impression, that it became surely among the Devs a topic to be discussed in their inner discussion rounds due to Chris (and maybe also other Devs which weren’t so much active part so far in CDI’s, but which read them passively, which liked the idea) maybe already actively supporting the design process in the back ground that we might perhaps see somewhen under a Feature Pack or maybe with Heart of Thorns Sub Classes getting introduced, (which would be awesome cause this feature in itself would provide so much potential for alot of horizontal Character progression by using Sub Classes as key elements to unlock alot of other smaller thigns as part of the whole horizontal Character Progression from new useable Weapons over new useable exclusive Equipment Skins over new exclusive build defining Utility, Healing and Elite Skills which could get bonded to certain Sub Classes to increase this way more also our Character Individuality, whats also very important (at least to me, that not everyone is the same).

P2:

Sub Classes could be used to improve and redesign the whole Trait System to make it better and simpler to balance the game around the new Sub Classes.
It could be used to introduce a progression also in the Trait System, giving us more Trait Points to play with, what would create more Build Diversity this way by a from Sub Classes unlocked new Tier after Grand Master, so called “Sage Traits”.
It could be used to reformat the Trait System into 3 more depthful sections to implement with Sub Classes more horizontal Character Progression by splitting up the trait System into Traits, Talents and Expertises with each section being responsible for something different regardign horizontal Character Progression usign this reformat also to make the Traits then also more build and skill effect defining, while Talents would be from this point on responsible for all those class based special passive effects for Healings, Dodges, Blocks, on Hit Effects and so on, while Traits would then finally affect Weapon, Healing, Utility and Elite Skills so, how it should have been from begin on, that theres a heck load of Traits, which actually completely change the Effects of all Skills by their functions, like changing their ranges, adding or altering Conditions and so on.
The current trait System is way too mixed up with effect changes, which should be better sorted more in different active and passive categories (Traits = Active), (Talents = Passive), while Expertises = (Visual, ergo Skill Skins, Aura Effects and so on)

Chris ended the Horizontal Progression CDI with the proposing words, that we will see somewhen in the future also a special Sub Class CDI (once they have made other changes to the game first was what Chris has written, which could be taken basically as pre-requirements to make a solid ground for the game to handle later Sub Classes, what I find absolutely understandable) which will be hold solely around this topic only. (Something what wouldn’t make sense to be done, if that topic wouldn’t have found more internally the likings under the Devs otherwise something likg that would be only a waste of time)
I’m by sure the person in this forum here, which can’t await this CDI to appear finally the most here from all of us

I also hope, that something stupid, like GW1’s Multi Classing System will never ever return to GW2. This system was horrible, it was absolutely unbalanceable always just from begin on until today. The game really had never ever a moment, where you could have said, that GW1 was in any way, shape or form “balanced” due to this terrible Class System. Sure, it provided alot of freedom for Build Diversity, but you also have to look at which a price that build freedom came for and it was one of the best Game Design Decisions that Anet could have made to change for GW2 back to a more classical One Class System to make GW2 ALOT easier and clear to balance in a whole.
The second best decision was to make Weapon Skills then, but thats something, which Anet could expand at least also a bit more with multiple different Weapon Skill Sets to provide there also a bit more diversity with for example learnable “Combat Styles” to alter that way outside of Combats your Weapon Skill Sets with your equipped Weapon.
That way the game would receive more horizontal progression without leaving the game design of giving Players preset Weapon Skills that are easy to balance and keep in balance, than to turn GW2 back to GW1’s Skill System, where you could decide for your whole Skill Bar for each single Slot the skilsl for your “Build”

Sub Classes are in my honest opinion this Game’s future and way to go for a massive better horizontal Character Progression and they are it, what I would call by ANet’s words a new frame how to design this game and expand its “universe”

PS: See my signature, thats what Chris exactly said and what I put instantly from that day on proudly into my signature lol ^^

Edited to remove some weird unlogical sentences where my fingers typed faster than my brain could think lol

I don’t think subclasses can work very well in GW2 because of stats and traits. One of the key aspects of GW1 multiclassing that is totally missing in GW2, is the changing of skills/traits. In GW1 you were locked with your chosen skills / traits until you visited the next outpost, so while players could have a variety of builds, the actual build being used was locked and couldn’t change.

In GW2 you can change your traits and skills anytime you want outside of combat (it’s even free now), so adding multiclass or subclass doesn’t make much sense to me. You want Stealth? Pick Thief as your second class, use all the Stealth skills you wish and be a Thief, then in the next room change to your Guardian skills and support/heal, then change to your Mesmer skills and portal people around etc

It will destroy any sense of individuality the professions have. The only way a sub/multi class system could work is if the player was somehow LOCKED with those skills like in GW1, free changing and multi/sub class don’t work well together.

foufos.4809:

Well, first of all “Conncept” was right what i was suggesting was more like multiclass and less as subclass, secondary i was a little bit confused on why will be something like that so unbalance…classes are supposed to already as balanced as they can be right now so multiclass in my opinion will be just interesting!

Anyway, i’m just trying to think “out of the box”!!!

Something that is balanced individually might not be balanced when put together.

Lets take Elementalist for example.

It can do massive amounts of damage to rather many enemies rather fast.

Now add in the thief’s easy access to stealth into that equation and it suddenly becomes very much more powerful.

Yeah, the secondary professions in GW1 one of the big things that broke the game so hard they had to end it and make GW2. I don’t think they’ll be making that mistake again.

Your race is your secondary instead. The skills are fewer and weaker so it’s pure flavor fluff and doesn’t cause balance issues.

Specializations are more likely. The idea was pretty popular in a CDI a while ago. If you play D&D, it’s kinda like prestige classes, instead of multi-classing.

I’m sure that, if Anet wanted, they could have implemented subclassing in such a way without compromising balance much. They could just make it more restricting and secondary than what it was in GW1. However, it’s too late for that.

maddoctor.2738:

I don’t think subclasses can work very well in GW2 because of stats and traits. One of the key aspects of GW1 multiclassing that is totally missing in GW2, is the changing of skills/traits. In GW1 you were locked with your chosen skills / traits until you visited the next outpost, so while players could have a variety of builds, the actual build being used was locked and couldn’t change.

In GW2 you can change your traits and skills anytime you want outside of combat (it’s even free now), so adding multiclass or subclass doesn’t make much sense to me. You want Stealth? Pick Thief as your second class, use all the Stealth skills you wish and be a Thief, then in the next room change to your Guardian skills and support/heal, then change to your Mesmer skills and portal people around etc

It will destroy any sense of individuality the professions have. The only way a sub/multi class system could work is if the player was somehow LOCKED with those skills like in GW1, free changing and multi/sub class don’t work well together.

Easily solved by implementing a Mentor System together with splitting up the Trait System into Traits, Talents and Expertises, as a player would have to go visit their corresponding Class Mentors to change Sub Classes by changing their Talents at them.

This way it would be guaranteed, that Players can’t switch Sub Classes outside of Combat in a matter of seconds around. Instead a Player would have to go visit their Home Towns (or any Town) to be able to change their Sub Class their by resetting their Talents for example a large Karma Fee + Gold, what would be another point, that would make people think twice about it no not change permanently around their Sub Classes, but rather stay on their chosen decisions and play it also for a while, until they want to experiment around and test something new for a while until you find a build, that you like the most.
As part of that kind of horizontal progression players could do then also something, like increasing their “Job Levels” to progress this way horizontally by unlocking more sub class specific visual stuff ect and by that you could also decrease the karma/Gold Fee slowly that the mentor would want from you to change your Sub Classes. (same could be done also with Crafting Jobs imo as part for Crafting progression to implement a way to reduce slowly the Crafting Job Change Fee, but thats an other topic )

Sub Classes will absolutely work with GW2 perfectly fine.
Your description there just shows, that Multi Classing combined with GW2’s trait system wouldn’t work at all with GW2, cause it would completely ruin GW2’s game balnce and design, if you could be basically at any given time whatever you want to be right now by changing your secondary class, what would make playing multiple character with different classes completely obsolete, if you could be anything you want whenever you want outside of combat..

Players are also locked with their Traits/Skills in GW2, you can change them also only while not being in combant (exception are Weapon Skills naturally as they are by design the only changeable skilsl for combat by switching the weapons), same as like you are able to change your Attributes in GW1 only, while not being in combat.
So your analogy was completely wrong.
Also in GW1 players weren’t able to change their Multi Classes just right outside of combat.
You have to go visit a NPC in GW1 that is in an outpost to change for a small Gold Fee your Secondary Class, unless ANet has changed this after the release of GW2 (I haven’t played GW1 since then anymore in 99,99% of all the time, so I can’t say for 100% sure, if GW1 still works so as like I remember on it, how it worked in the past years ago)

Orpheal.8263:

Players are also locked with their Traits/Skills in GW2, you can change them also only while not being in combant (exception are Weapon Skills naturally as they are by design the only changeable skilsl for combat by switching the weapons), same as like you are able to change your Attributes in GW1 only, while not being in combat.
So your analogy was completely wrong.

In GW1 you can only change skills while in a town or outpost, in GW2 you can change everything at any time while out of combat. In GW1 you were locked in one build during your entire run. In GW2 you can take a subclass Mesmer, play only your main class and just switch to a Mesmer to use a Portal only when you need a specific jump, then change back to your regular class. Or you could change to your Thief Shadow Refugee skill, bypass an entire part of content, then switch back to your “usual” play style.

In GW1 you could NOT use your secondary class mechanics to bypass specific content, unless you had those skills ALREADY equipped for the rest of the run. For example, taking Light of Deldrimor inside a dungeon to find hidden treasures, the skill (1 of your 8 slots) is nearly useless outside before you get to the dungeon, so you are gimping yourself to have access to specific skills. In GW2, even if as you say you can’t change subclass as much as you want, you still have access to skills you shouldn’t. So my analogy is completely correct.

Also, traits in GW1 and traits in GW2 can’t be any more different in scope and ability. What’s the point in changing your traits in GW1 if your skills remain exactly the same? Answer: absolutely no point. It’s the complete opposite in GW2 and traits, in GW2, you can change every other skill easily, so changing traits give maximum benefit. While traits also give STAT boosts that benefit the player regardless of which skills they chose.

Also in GW1 players weren’t able to change their Multi Classes just right outside of combat.
You have to go visit a NPC in GW1 that is in an outpost to change for a small Gold Fee your Secondary Class, unless ANet has changed this after the release of GW2 (I haven’t played GW1 since then anymore in 99,99% of all the time, so I can’t say for 100% sure, if GW1 still works so as like I remember on it, how it worked in the past years ago)

Exactly my point. In GW2 you can change skills and traits freely, while in GW1 you can’t. Using skills from multiple classes will make those classes lose their uniqueness and charm. Everyone will be using Portals and Shadow Refugees, I wouldn’t say that’s a good thing for the game at all.

At least there is one strong supporter in my idea (Orpheal), in fact he described better than me the whole vision i have about sub-classes.

Sure there are many things that could change the whole balancing “thing” but they can also progress the game experience.

How I see subclasses work:

It hurts the unique nature of professions when special skills move around, an Engineer with Minions, a Warrior with Illusions, a Guardian with Stealth etc are not something I’d rather see in the game. Professions need to stay unique and interesting, and I think the professions we have all have some interesting and unique mechanics.

Instead of using skills/traits from other professions, do something completely new and unique with them. Sublasses can be a way for a player to SPECIALIZE in something. Specializations like this will offer extra skills, available only to those who spec in them, and a new trait line that replaces the profession specific traitline with new traits.

An example some Warrior Specializations:

“Raging Juggernaut”, buffs Physical Skills, Axes, Greatsword, Special Trait is Rage that replaces Strength and offers more ways to charge up Adrenaline faster (instead of buffing Burst Skills)

“Battle Commander”, buffs Warhorn, Banners, Shouts, Special Trait is Presence that replaces Strength, this one offers more support and party buffing options, maybe increasing the duration and range of boons and healing, the more charged up your adrenaline bar is, rather than increasing the effectiveness of Burst Skills

“Sentinel”, buffs Shield, Mace, Hammer, Signets, Special Trait is Hardened, which gives the character extra defensive options, like reduced duration of conditions for each level of Adrenaline, or extra healing ability etc

Of course specializations can be used to introduce new weapons to the game, available only to the new specializations (unlockable for the base class)

Trait balance remains the same. A vanilla Warrior will use Strength, the specialized Warriors will use Rage, Presence, Hardened based on which Spec the player chose to. There is no problem with overflowing stats anymore.

Thoughts on this?

Thats exactly what I kind of envision also with Sub Classes, yes Maddoctor.
Not perhaps by replacing some Trait Lines, but rather more by expanding the Trait Lines giving us more Trait Points to put into, cause the Trait Tiers would get also expanded to a new max of Sage Traits (whould be shown in the Exotic Color) then, which would follow after Grandmaster Traits (which are shown in the rare Yellow Color).

After that could Anet add then eventually Ascended Traits, which get shown in thy typical Ascended Pink.
And thats something, for what ANet could implement then also a Level Cap increase, to gain from 80 to 100 just more Trait Points and Sub Class Unlocks (by gaining new Sub Class Talents every 5 Levels after 80), but Equipment would still be capped simply at 80. The only thing that I could see under vertical progression under a Level Cap increase would be, that Anet could increase perhaps with those Levels for all Classes the Maximum Health slightly a bit as a part also of Game Balance.

Level Cap Increases don’t have to come always with vertical progression, thats biased nonsense from people, that don’t know anything else than games, where cap increases always came together with vertical progression in the past.
Level Cap Increases can also easily be used for just only 100% Horizontal Progression that absolutely affect in no way or form any Character Equipment that would make your Stuff worthless then, simply because they would get not introduced any equipment with higher stats, just only because the Level Cap got increased.

The Devs of ANet, especially Mike O’ Brien in this case have always said anyways from begin on, that GW2 by its design is much more made like a classical MMORPG and that it is likely, that once the right time and situation is there, that it is also very possible and likely, that GW2 will see a Level Cap Increase somewhen and this is somethign, that also already has been discussed to death, so I don’t understand, why now that Heart of the Thorns is known to come soon this year and most likely gets officially announced on the 24th of January, why out of a sudden these Level Cap discussion threads pop up suddenly again like mushrooms, when it should be clear, that it will happen somewhen has part of the game/Character Progression and that everyone can be sure, that once it come,s it surely wont be a simple Cap increase with alot more of vertical progression, because Anet isn’t stupid…
They know very well, that such a change would be basically this game’s permanent death for sure right now… thats something what would maybe finds its way into the chinese version of this game, cause there the people just have that gaming mentality for something like that, unlike the western players which hate unendless gear grind.

So i’m very sure, that we will see in the future of this game a Level Cap increase designed as a 100% integrated part of horizontal character progression somehow.
Anything else just makes zero sense if ANet just doesn’t want to destroy their game with their own hands and put it right into the grave to shovel then the dirt on it that they created.

Orpheal.8263:

GW2 needs Level Cap Increases (must not come together with Equipment Progression that everyone fears so much

For the most part I can see where you’re coming from, but why do you think the game needs level cap increases if you’re not going to attach equipment progression to it?

If it’s just to facilitate various forms of horizontal progression (such as the Sage Traits you mentioned), surely there’s more interesting ways that these forms of progression can be achieved as opposed to just reach X level, unlock Y trait/subclass/etc?

Something like small, challenging instances that are specific to the profession (to keep in the theme of the profession) that can be completed in a variety of ways in order to unlock that particular sub-class? In these instances the player has access to a few skills, gradually unlocking them as they complete the instance.

For example, you have two sub-class routes as a Thief: Saboteur and Assassin. To unlock Saboteur, the player has to plant bombs around the instance in various places to bring it down, while to unlock Assassin the player has to kill a specific target without the rest of the instance being alerted by patrolling mobs.