Guild Wars 2

How does the kicking feature still require only 3 out of 5 people to kick? Why isn’t it 4/5 to prevent griefing?

Also, I think you can’t opt to not kick someone? So it just sits there forever, taking up space on your screen, which makes people hit “ok yes please kick this person”.

3/5 is a majority, a 75% majority considering the to be kicked person obviously doesnt really count.

Shiyo.3578:

How does the kicking feature still require only 3 out of 5 people to kick? Why isn’t it 4/5 to prevent griefing?

Also, I think you can’t opt to not kick someone? So it just sits there forever, taking up space on your screen, which makes people hit “ok yes please kick this person”.

… isn’t it still 2/5? I know there was a patch implying it would raise to 3/5 but pretty sure it was an ineffective change.

Just change back the system to “Dungeon Host” can’t be kicked.
This social stuff doesn’t tend to work in dungeons :/

Guardian of Angels.9867:

Just change back the system to “Dungeon Host” can’t be kicked.
This social stuff doesn’t tend to work in dungeons :/

That won’t fix anything; it’ll just bring back the older problems related to having an instance owner.

Better 3 votes than 2 votes… they incrised from 2 to 3… I dont think they will incrise it from 3 to 4…

RoseofGilead.8907:

Guardian of Angels.9867:

Just change back the system to “Dungeon Host” can’t be kicked.
This social stuff doesn’t tend to work in dungeons :/

That won’t fix anything; it’ll just bring back the older problems related to having an instance owner.

All it has to do, is automaticly assign a new dungeon host when the current one dc’s or logs out.

Wow, it was 2 people to kick someone? That’s even worse, what is anet even thinking?

I thought it was still 2….but maybe im misreading the box…its been an awful long time since i needed to kick someone

I’m pretty sure it’s still 2 people required.

Gaile Gray.6029:

If I recall correctly, this was a hot topic a few months ago, but the consensus was that 2 of 5 was too few, 4 of 5 was considered too many, and 3 of 5 would be just right. (Why does “Goldilocks and the Three Bears” come to mind here? )

Are you guys remembering the player input differently? Or do you feel that what was stated would be happening did not get implemented? I’m happy to follow up, but I believe the current number represents the figure that both devs and players felt would be appropriate.

we definitely reached some kind of consensus among ourselves that 3/5 would be better, then it got a patch note… then justin or evan or someone said it wasnt working… and it stayed at 2/5 with no word.

Gaile Gray.6029:

If I recall correctly, this was a hot topic a few months ago, but the consensus was that 2 of 5 was too few, 4 of 5 was considered too many, and 3 of 5 would be just right. (Why does “Goldilocks and the Three Bears” come to mind here? )

Are you guys remembering the player input differently? Or do you feel that what was stated would be happening did not get implemented? I’m happy to follow up, but I believe the current number represents the figure that both devs and players felt would be appropriate.

The reason I dislike 3/5 is that I can decline kicking someone but the 3 other people will kick them. Also the fact that I can be playing with a friend, and 3 pugs or guildmates decide to be mean and kick us, if it was 4/5 this wouldn’t be a problem. Having 1 person backing you up should defend you from being kicked, imo.

At the very least, can you add an option to click “NO” for when someone initiates a kick? A lot of people will click “yes” simply to remove the text blocking their screen.

wtf pretty sure it’s still 2/5

Edit: Just tested, still 2 dudes, donno why people keep saying 3 all of a sudden.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Thank you for this info. I’m confused, too!

Let me see if I can find out more about this on Monday. Oh heck, I’ll send an email now… but probably wont’t be able to post until Monday.

You guys announced in one of the patch notes that you were changing it then ninja removed said notes within 10 or 15 minutes.

Yea its still two people, it says waiting for someone to second when you try and kick someone still (tried it out in a guild party)

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Thank you for this info. I’m confused, too!

Let me see if I can find out more about this on Monday. Oh heck, I’ll send an email now… but probably wont’t be able to post until Monday.

You guys announced in one of the patch notes that you were changing it then ninja removed said notes within 10 or 15 minutes.

I had thought it was that it didn’t work at all.

What it was was something like “raised the requirement to kick from 40% to 50%” with them thinking it was going to go from 2/5 (40%) to 2.5/5 and round to 3. But, only 4 people vote, so 50% of 4 is still 2. So it was ineffective, at least that’s what I remember the theory being after that whole thing.

I don’t believe it ever actually worked.

I don’t think the problem is 2/5 vs 4/5 — I think the issue is that there are few (if any) consequences to kicking for bad reasons, especially trolls kicking people selling a path, guild members kicking non-guildies at the end of a path, and so on.

People are reluctant to report this sort of behavior because it’s unclear where ANet draws the line (and people are afraid to over-report), it requires amassing forensic documentation (which, frankly, most people aren’t that good at), and even when people do that, they almost never learn what, if anything happened. In other words, the onus on enforcing reasonable communal behavior is on the victim.

Maybe kicking while in a dungeon or fractal should require a reason (from a pull-down or typing it out) and ANet can enable anyone kicked to report the party. This makes it easier for the victim to start an investigation and it gives ANet some documentation right away.

tl;dr Changing to 3/5 or even 4/5 will reduce the number of times this comes up, but it doesn’t really address the underlying issues.

Didn’t they add party member names in chat precisely to aid in reporting these sort of things? The only evidence they require I think is the time.

It’s still been 2/5 for me when someone requests a kick. Is it supposed to be 3/5? Meh.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Thank you for this info. I’m confused, too!

Let me see if I can find out more about this on Monday. Oh heck, I’ll send an email now… but probably wont’t be able to post until Monday.

What happened was that in a previous patch, the notes included a supposed change that it’d take a majority of group members to kick (or similar wording) thus upping the threshold from 2 to 3 people for a 5 man party. Less than half an hour of those notes going live, you guys removed that change from the notes, and made no mention of any edits/corrections/anything to those patch notes.

The kick threshold was unchanged. But it would have been great if ANET could have (at the time) just made a follow up post to the notes (like you do for everything else) saying it was mistakenly included in the notes, or just didn’t function properly, or whatever was actually the case there. This goes back to the whole communication issue, which has been discussed before. We don’t terribly much care that you didn’t change the kick threshold; it’s more frustrating that you communicated that you did, when you didn’t, then didn’t issue any kind of actual retraction leading a lot of people to believe false things about the kick threshold. I can only imagine the “when its ready” communication policy is a huge part of the reason why no retraction was issued.

There was some discussion in the dungeons subforum about this at the time (and it’s been discussed a few times since, as people slowly keep finding out by experience), but I guess you guys don’t regularly read that subforum (it’s okay, we pretty much already knew this).

Wasn’t this the case where dev response was “it is too hard to code”.

Might remember wrong though.

kuittaa.7360:

Wasn’t this the case where dev response was “it is too hard to code”.

Might remember wrong though.

They said that, then a few weeks later they put the % increase in the patch notes… no effect, note disappeared i guess, and nothing more said.

Here’s my solution to the 2 people kicking full party problem.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Troll-kicks-solution

It combines majority vote with ranking importance of each vote based on dungeon milestones achieved by a given person. So that middle/end joiners won’t be able to just freely kick people that worked their way there from the very start.

Shiyo.3578:

How does the kicking feature still require only 3 out of 5 people to kick? Why isn’t it 4/5 to prevent griefing?

If only it really was 3/5. It isn’t. And requiring full kick agreement is a bit too much, in my opinion. There need to be solutions to the 3 vs 2 problems too.

Would it be a problem if you couldn’t kick at the end of a dungeon, that’s when the trolling starts and people want to sell spaces for gold. One downside would be for an afk player or someone trolling by not participating so only 4 players active, how often is that at the end of a dungeon?

It was claimed to have been increased to 3/5 during one of the recent-ish releases in the release notes, but once it was figured out to still be at 2/5 the release notes were adjusted. This has resulted in some confusion amongst people in-game and in the forums.

I think if we could get it up to 3/5 that would be spectacular and would prevent a lot of the problems that we currently see with regards to party kick griefing.

Dungeon kicking of any kind is wrong. Get along or don’t play mmo’s.

Gaile Gray.6029:

If I recall correctly, this was a hot topic a few months ago, but the consensus was that 2 of 5 was too few, 4 of 5 was considered too many, and 3 of 5 would be just right. (Why does “Goldilocks and the Three Bears” come to mind here? )

Wouldn’t have been a very interesting story if the three bears vote kicked her before she invaded their home.

Drow.2081:

Dungeon kicking of any kind is wrong. Get along or don’t play mmo’s.

Please tell me you’re trolling. have you ever been in a party with someone so bad they set your group up for failures? Kicking people doesn’t sololy have to do with not getting along, stop being so narrow minded.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Let me see if I can find out more about this on Monday. Oh heck, I’ll send an email now… but probably wont’t be able to post until Monday.

So, any official updates?

Gaile Gray.6029:

Thank you for this info. I’m confused, too!

Let me see if I can find out more about this on Monday. Oh heck, I’ll send an email now… but probably wont’t be able to post until Monday.

That email went unanswered, no?

The only solution that removes griefing:

You cannot kick anyone – you can only leave.

stale.9785:

The only solution that removes griefing:

You cannot kick anyone – you can only leave.

This only promotes more griefing. Imagine after this change, if people want you out of their party, they’ll just sit there and go afk until you leave the party. Pretty effective considering most dungeons cant be soloed from A to Z.

stale.9785:

The only solution that removes griefing:

You cannot kick anyone – you can only leave.

Then people will do things to force you to leave.

If you want people to stop griefing in instanced content, you make it so doing so is completely and utterly pointless.

• Scale rewards to personal progress on the instance, so anyone who joins just before the boss doesn’t get full rewards, only the ones corresponding to the boss fight based on scaling.
• When players are kicked, instead losing all progress, they are sent to a copy of the instance with the same progress.

And ding, you kick people to get your friend in or to sell the dungeon? Waste of time, your friend won’t get any decent rewards for joining late, just enough to compensate for the time it takes to deal with the boss, and they can still ask friends and guildies to join their copy of the instance so they can finish.

Yeah, I dunno, but if you’re frustrated that other players make more mistakes than you do, just leave the group and make one of your own with players you know that never make mistakes. I mean, it seems kind of lame to be able to kick so easily from a group you know is a PUG, anyway.

MithranArkanere.8957:

Then people will do things to force you to leave.

If you want people to stop griefing in instanced content, you make it so doing so is completely and utterly pointless.

• Scale rewards to personal progress on the instance, so anyone who joins just before the boss doesn’t get full rewards, only the ones corresponding to the boss fight based on scaling.
• When players are kicked, instead losing all progress, they are sent to a copy of the instance with the same progress.

And ding, you kick people to get your friend in or to sell the dungeon? Waste of time, your friend won’t get any decent rewards for joining late, just enough to compensate for the time it takes to deal with the boss, and they can still ask friends and guildies to join their copy of the instance so they can finish.

A very even-handed idea. I like it!

I think this is still relevant on all counts:

dlonie.6547:

I’d rather see a system of strong ownership…

Wait, let me start over:

I’d rather see ANet discuss these things with players before running in and implementing a solution that is no better than it was before. The new ownership model fixes one problem, but opens up a ton of griefing opportunities.

If they’d posted something, anything…“Hey, we’re going to revamp the ownership model to get rid of the bug that’s been here for two years. We want to touch base with you, the players, to make sure we understand the issue completely and implement something satisfactory!”

I have a feeling we would have ended up with a system of strong ownership:

• There is an instance owner. This player has sole control over kicking the other players. It is their party, and they are in charge.
• It takes one vote to kick other players: the owner’s vote.
• The owner may transfer ownership to another player by right clicking on the party UI.
• If the owner DC’s for 5+ minutes or otherwise leaves the party, ownership is transferred to another player, by vote or RNG.

This would fix:

• Instance destruction when owner leaves
• “Join & Kick” abuse
• The new “I lost my solo instance because I DC’d!” issue.

It clarifies who is in charge, prevents griefing, and protects both sellers and inexperienced players when they start their own groups.

Instead, these decisions are made behind closed doors with 0 community involvement. Is it any wonder that the results don’t jive with what the community wants?

I suppose the starting point for this discussion is: what options are on The Table™ for solving this problem? Does ArenaNet have the resources to do anything besides toggle the number of required kicks? Is something like the above even a possibility?

Yeah, from what I see, one person initiates the kick and then it just takes a second person to confirm. In a 5 man group that is too few. It should be majority rule. Where the person being kicked doesn’t vote (doesn’t count) then;

3/4, 2/3, and 2/2.

I see a major issue with this point in particular:

MithranArkanere.8957:

• When players are kicked, instead losing all progress, they are sent to a copy of the instance with the same progress.

Consider this scenario:

1) 5 man team (preorganized, let’s say it’s a guild group) gets to last boss of a dungeon.
2) 4 players are kicked (not griefing — these players planned to get kicked at this point)
3) There are now 5 instances of the nearly-completed dungeon, each with one player in them.
4) Each player invites 4 guildies to their instance.
5) Go to step two and repeat as many times as needed to pull everyone who wants free gold into an instance.
6) Kill the final boss, everyone gets paid.

tl;dr there would be a potentially infinite number of players piggybacking off of one party’s work to get rewards they are not entitled to.

dlonie.6547:

[…]

You did not read what I wrote or did not understand what I meant.

Rewards would scale. They’ll be ‘infinitely’ wasting their time producing last boss fights.

Remember how some Guild Missions have 3 tiers, but if you do tier 1, then tier 3, you only get the difference, so doing tier 3, then tier 1 would be a pointless waste of time?

This would be the same.

Rewards would scale to personal progression, so if you do only the boss, you get the rewards from the boss, not the path. And to qualify to achievement points and daily bonus rewards, you’ll need to at least do a minimum progress of the path.

Join to just kill the boss again, you get nothing because you already did that, but you can still do the rest of the dungeon to get the rest of the rewards and the daily bonus.

Doing what you say would be pointless with the system of personal progression I recommend. You’ll be wasting your time splitting instances to get more or less the same rewards you get for a world boss, or less, and you can’t repeat it. Doing the full run from the start will always be better.

Even more if the scaling includes bonus rewards for bonus events not required to complete the path.

Needless to say, you cannot have splitting instances without scaling rewards.

But you could have scaling rewards without splitting, as that would discourage kicking people before the boss for the reward slot, as a party slot would lose ‘resale value’ as the path is completed.

MithranArkanere.8957:

dlonie.6547:

[…]

You did not read what I wrote or did not understand what I meant.

Rewards would scale. They’ll be ‘infinitely’ wasting their time producing last boss fights.

Remember how some Guild Missions have 3 tiers, but if you do tier 1, then tier 3, you only get the difference, so doing tier 3, then tier 1 would be a pointless waste of time?

This would be the same.

Rewards would scale to personal progression, so if you do only the boss, you get the rewards from the boss, not the path. And to qualify to achievement points and daily bonus rewards, you’ll need to at least do a minimum progress of the path.

Join to just kill the boss again, you get nothing because you already did that, but you can still do the rest of the dungeon to get the rest of the rewards and the daily bonus.

Doing what you say would be pointless with the system of personal progression I recommend. You’ll be wasting your time splitting instances to get more or less the same rewards you get for a world boss, or less, and you can’t repeat it. Doing the full run from the start will always be better.

Even more if the scaling includes bonus rewards for bonus events not required to complete the path.

Ah, fair enough — I didn’t appreciate the interplay of the two discussion points. Thanks for clarifying

I have a feeling that copying the dungeon state to clone the instance would require a (likely prohibitively) huge developmental undertaking, but it is an interesting concept. I wonder what the development team and designers would think about this approach.

Zephyra.4709:

It’s still been 2/5 for me when someone requests a kick. Is it supposed to be 3/5? Meh.

I was wondering this too…how are people seeing 3/5 to kick someone. It has always been 2/5 for a kick.

khani.4786:

Zephyra.4709:

It’s still been 2/5 for me when someone requests a kick. Is it supposed to be 3/5? Meh.

I was wondering this too…how are people seeing 3/5 to kick someone. It has always been 2/5 for a kick.

In official patch notes, ANET said they changed it to majority required to kick, with the example of ‘now takes 3 to kick in a 5 man party’.

Then they removed that from the official patch notes, without so much as a word.

The actual kick threshold never changed.

So some people read the notes, and believed them. Eventually, these people are discovering the notes lied. Some of them are even going back and being like “HUH? THIS WAS IN THE NOTES! I KNOW IT WAS THERE!” and being very confused when they can’t find it in the notes, nor any mention of anything like it there. And some people read the notes after ANET changed them, and are confused about people who think/thought it was changed.

And the two groups of people when discussing the kick threshold can get very confused and think the other group is crazy if they don’t know what actually occurred.

ANET could have prevented all of this with better communication. Just a single post reply to the original notes saying that [insert change here] was in error (while editing it out of the original notes, but ideally just doing strike-through or something) would have been enough.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Thank you for this info. I’m confused, too!

Let me see if I can find out more about this on Monday. Oh heck, I’ll send an email now… but probably wont’t be able to post until Monday.

Any official updates, now that we’re one week after the Monday you thought you could update us on?

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Thank you for this info. I’m confused, too!

Let me see if I can find out more about this on Monday. Oh heck, I’ll send an email now… but probably wont’t be able to post until Monday.

You guys announced in one of the patch notes that you were changing it then ninja removed said notes within 10 or 15 minutes.

This. It was there, but the notes got removed and the change reverted (if it was ever implemented).

MithranArkanere.8957:

stale.9785:

The only solution that removes griefing:

You cannot kick anyone – you can only leave.

Then people will do things to force you to leave.

If you want people to stop griefing in instanced content, you make it so doing so is completely and utterly pointless.

• Scale rewards to personal progress on the instance, so anyone who joins just before the boss doesn’t get full rewards, only the ones corresponding to the boss fight based on scaling.
• When players are kicked, instead losing all progress, they are sent to a copy of the instance with the same progress.

And ding, you kick people to get your friend in or to sell the dungeon? Waste of time, your friend won’t get any decent rewards for joining late, just enough to compensate for the time it takes to deal with the boss, and they can still ask friends and guildies to join their copy of the instance so they can finish.

This – while in theory a good idea – would be so broken it would be amazing to see.

Start party with 5 man guild group.
Near the end kick players and split group into 4 groups. Each group invites guildies and fills up so now you have 25 people at the end of the dungeon getting those “minimal rewards” which will probably still be greater than 5 people getting maximum.

You would be creating a pretty good farm though.

The simplest way to resolve this is to have rewards progressively distributed through out a dungeon path. It’s true that some people may opt to do partial dungeon and leave out the hard boss fights. But, they do not get progressively higher portion of the reward for the boss fight.

For example,

Take AC Path 3.

Objective 1. Spider Queen – 5 tokens, 5s
Objective 2. Kholer – 10 tokens, 10s
Objective 3. Graveling Mounds (part 1 and 2) – 20 tokens, 20s
Objective 4. Rhombus – 25 tokens, 25s

All 4 objectives yield 60 tokens per day and 60s. Bonus gold is distributed to players based on how many objectives a player completed. Bonus gold amount will depend on dungeon path/difficulty.

In this system, Player 1 thru 5 start AC path 3 and kill Spider Queen. Player 5 gets kicked at Rhombus, the new player does not get the reward for killing Rhombus but, gets rewarded an equivalent amount for completing the first objective, ie, killing of spider queen, 5 tokens and 5s. The kicked player gets rewarded for completing 3 objectives.

I’d leave it upto the devs/community to decide if bonus gold should be prorated or skipped for either new or old player 5. My vote will be on bonus gold be skipped for both and rewarded only after all 4 objectives are completed by a player for the day. In that case, a player choosing to join last boss fight in one instance while completing other objectives in another instance of the same dungeon path, won’t have to redo in order to get the full objective 4 rewards and bonus gold for completing all the objectives for the path.

And yes, this will kill dungeon path selling and people would like to run Arah paths legit again.

Harper.4173:

MithranArkanere.8957:

stale.9785:

The only solution that removes griefing:

You cannot kick anyone – you can only leave.

Then people will do things to force you to leave.

If you want people to stop griefing in instanced content, you make it so doing so is completely and utterly pointless.

• Scale rewards to personal progress on the instance, so anyone who joins just before the boss doesn’t get full rewards, only the ones corresponding to the boss fight based on scaling.
• When players are kicked, instead losing all progress, they are sent to a copy of the instance with the same progress.

And ding, you kick people to get your friend in or to sell the dungeon? Waste of time, your friend won’t get any decent rewards for joining late, just enough to compensate for the time it takes to deal with the boss, and they can still ask friends and guildies to join their copy of the instance so they can finish.

This – while in theory a good idea – would be so broken it would be amazing to see.

Start party with 5 man guild group.
Near the end kick players and split group into 4 groups. Each group invites guildies and fills up so now you have 25 people at the end of the dungeon getting those “minimal rewards” which will probably still be greater than 5 people getting maximum.

You would be creating a pretty good farm though.

according to what they said, they only be getting the rewards for killing one champion, boss chest is one per day anyhow, and you could only do it one time per dungeon run. Seems like a lot of work just for multiplying the amount of people who can get a champion bag by 5. It would be faster for 25 people to just go to frostgorge, or eotm by far.

so yeah the could do it, but they wouldnt really gain much.