Guild Wars 2

The purpose of this post is to elucidate the best way to use condition builds in a group setting. Condition builds have internal group synergy in how they work.

lets look at some text from the wiki on “intensity stacking conditions”
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Effect_stacking

“For duration effects, if the same effect is present from multiple sources, the source with the greatest intensity will be used up first. When that effect expires the effect from the next most powerful source will resume and use the amount of time it had remaining when the more powerful effect started (which can be its entire time if it started while the other source was on top of the stack). Most effects have a stacking limit, which means that the effect can only last so long, and further stacks cannot be applied while the stack is at the limit. This limit applies to each source independently, as multiple sources can stack the effect for longer than a single source.

Effects that stack in intensity can stack up to 1500 times, except might and vulnerability which are limited to a stack size of 25. The sources with the greatest intensity and number of stacks will take priority in calculating damage. Removing effects, usually with condition and boon removal, ignores the intensity of the effect."

So, if the sources with the greatest intensity, and number of stacks takes priority in calculating damage, that ends up meaning a few great things for us.

1. Direct damage builds don’t waste dps when using condition based traits and skills. not as a focus but as part of the rotation. (traits that you get anyway, like Mesmer’s {*Sharper Images*:illusions bleed on crit.})
—traits like these add totals to the stack and act like the condition players had applied them firsthand, so long as they can apply more stacks in total than the power players (and they will,) this only adds damage to the party’s total dps output as it will be calculated by a condition damage based character..

2. This means that there is not one recipe for the “best” condition build. (Take the Condi Engi that the meta is so fond of, it can’t be best in slot for damage, because it has duration traits, and not damage traits for its conditions. Meaning that, at equal condition damage, and at equal stacks, a Guardian with {*Amplified Wrath*} or a ranger with {*Hidden Barbs*} will always out damage the engineer (in burning or bleeding respectively.), simply by taking over the engineer’s damage calculations. Though is is best in slot for duration, and provides a huge boost to party dps.)
—This means that there are a few classes that sit above the rest, not in terms of actual application of conditions but in raid-wide damage buffs, or traits that exceed the duration cap. Certain classes stand out in this regard, as the total condition damage comes from "Who has stolen, what size stack, at this moment? It is they, who have set the “dps” that condition stack is doing.
—a. Ranger—> {*Trapper’s Expertise*: Boons and Conditions caused by traps last 60% longer. Traps recharge 20% faster and offensive ones cause cripple.} <—this trait can break the 100% duration cap. {*Hidden Barbs*: Bleeding you cause is 20% more damaging.} and {*Poison Master*: When swapping pets, your pet’s first attack will inflict poison. Your poison damage is increased 25%.} Ranger is the only class with two direct damage bonus traits for conditions.
—b. Guardian—> {*Amplified Wrath*: Burning damage is increased 15%. Burn enemies whose attacks you successfully block.} While they only have one significant trait here. its The Trait to Rule Them All. “Yes, please take the whole raid’s burning stack up 15%. {*Purging Flames*}-{*Whirling Wrath*}…” 14 stacks or so should win out the calculation on burn, and be a huge raid wide boost.
—c. Elementalist—> {*Power Overwhelming*: Gain condition damage based on power, 10%.} and {*Strength of Stone*: Gain condition damage based on your toughness, 10%} This is significant, only because Elementalist is the only class with two condition damage conversion traits, also, when combo’d with a mix of sinister and rabid, runes of the undead and sigil of bursting, this can be the highest condition damage available to a single character (2177 at max pre-buffs.). Meaning; bringing an elementalist set up this way, can be your best option, if you don’t have a gaurdian to handle buffing the group’s burns, and a ranger to buff the group’s bleeds. Though, if your main condition damage is coming from confuse, torment, or poison other characters may win out the slot.
—d. Necromancer—> {*Terror*: Fear deals damage 824; it deals additional damage is the target if afflicted with another condition, 1,241.} this is the highest damage single condition in the game, and it’s murder on break bars. {*Deathly Chill*: Chill deals damage over time, 202.} this trait will ensure that it is always the reaper calculating everyone chill. {*Lingering Curse*: While wielding a scepter, your condition damage is increased by 150. Conditions inflicted by scepter skills have 50% increased duration.}_<—this trait can break the 100% duration cap._
—e. Engineer—> {*Sharpshooter*: Critical hits have a 33% chance to cause bleeding.} {*Incendiary Powder*: Burning you apply lasts 33% longer, and your critical hits inflict burning.} This class is unique as it has the most “condi on crit” traits… with sigils, this can be 4 critical procs. This sets up the condi engineer as the king, of the condition duration. it also stacks quantity of everything other than torment. {*Chemical Rounds*: Your pistol skills have 50% increased duration.}_<—this trait can break the 100% duration cap._ if the engineer can hit the 150% cap with pistols, it can keep up the huge stacks of everything, stacking damage for the entire party. Remember that this only works well for non-torment damage sources… It barely helps Torment mesmer or Mallyx revnant, although is is good damage in its own right.
—f. Thief—> {*Potent Poison*: Increases poison duration by 33%. Increases poison damage by 33%.}- The venom-share thief is, (especially when combo’d with reaper) the best possible poison damage.

3. We can exploit these truths to amplify our condition damage substantially in group settings. In fact, we are only managing, how many stacks of what conditions, for how long…and not the effectiveness of any particular build, per-say… simply the biggest contributor wins the stack. so, it becomes important to split up the work of applying a strong stack, and applying a long stack. If we can do both, then the stacks hit the moon, and a single strong stack can win the majority and overwrite the ownership. and you get the best of both worlds.

—Imagine a group containing 5 players, in all condition builds.

Thief, for poison and torment. (Sinister.)

Guardian, for burn damage. (Sinister.)

Engineer, for stack quantity, on burn and poison, (Viper. duration runes, givers weapons.)

Ranger, for stack quantity on poison and bleed, damage bonus on bleed. (Viper, damage runes, sinister weapons.) -theory highlight-: the ranger will hold out the poison damage and bleed damage, until the slightly higher condition damage of the thief’s poison bomb from venom-share comes in… then the thief’s stacks outweigh the ranger’s, and the higher damage bonus kicks in, thieves in this setup can expect 10k poison ticks pretty easily.

Necromancer, for stack quantity on poison, bleed, and torment. Damage on chill and fear. (Viper’s, with Giver’s weapons and duration runes.)

Let me be the first to say, this may not be the optimal party setup. Part of the reason I’m opening this thread, is to see if we can put our heads together, to see if, we can manipulate the stack mechanic, and the unique class traits to provide max damage. I don’t propose to know the solution, I propose to have the method of finding it.

I have a few builds from the optimal classes I can share, all things I either play, or have played that I can post if anyone has questions, but I feel like build specifics ought to be left to other threads, as this thread is aimed at uncovering inter-build synergy.

It’s just me or this was so freaking long and I still don’t get his point?

I don’t think you quite understand. Everyone’s conditions all tick for exactly whatever they are supposed to tick for. There is no more overwriting or whatever since they removed the condi cap.

Thaddeus.4891:

It’s just me or this was so freaking long and I still don’t get his point?

I’d be happy to explain.

I’ll try to put it into a one liner here. Although its a bit to nuanced to be cut down that much… but here goes.

“If we create a list, of optimal classes and builds, based on trait choices, and intelligent gear choices, we can do more damage than just ‘bringing a few meta condi builds’…”

did you have any specific question, I could give an example of, or expand on?

NikeEU.7690:

I don’t think you quite understand. Everyone’s conditions all tick for exactly whatever they are supposed to tick for. There is no more overwriting or whatever since they removed the condi cap.

I’m not sure that’s right,

Can you explain the phenomena of loosing the responsibility for your damage ticks? or suddenly becoming responsible for way more than your doing? I’ve experienced “stack stealing”, as recently as yesterday. I don’t mean to be contrary, and I know who you are, but I feel this is a thing we can exploit.

and if not, then at least change the wiki :-)

With all the references to “steal the dps” and “overwrite the ownership” I think OP thinks that the last person to add to a stack somehow “takes over” the whole stack. Therefore, in OPs world if a necro dumps 10 bleeds on something and a ranger comes by with hidden barbs and adds a bleed then he “steals the dps” of the necros 10 bleeds and adds the hidden barbs multiplier to it.

This is not how it works.

thehipone.6812:

With all the references to “steal the dps” and “overwrite the ownership” I think OP thinks that the last person to add to a stack somehow “takes over” the whole stack. Therefore, in OPs world if a necro dumps 10 bleeds on something and a ranger comes by with hidden barbs and adds a bleed then he “steals the dps” of the necros 10 bleeds and adds the hidden barbs multiplier to it.

This is not how it works.

no that’s not right

the necro comes in with 10 stacks of bleeds @ say 1700 condi dmg.

then the ranger applies 9 stacks of bleed @ 1800.

stack calculates at 19 @1700. (shows on necro’s screen)

the ranger then applies, 6 more,

stack calculates at 25 @1800+20% from trait. (shows on ranger’s screen)

BrokenGlass.9356:

thehipone.6812:

With all the references to “steal the dps” and “overwrite the ownership” I think OP thinks that the last person to add to a stack somehow “takes over” the whole stack. Therefore, in OPs world if a necro dumps 10 bleeds on something and a ranger comes by with hidden barbs and adds a bleed then he “steals the dps” of the necros 10 bleeds and adds the hidden barbs multiplier to it.

This is not how it works.

no that’s not right

the necro comes in with 10 stacks of bleeds @ say 1700 condi dmg.

then the ranger applies 9 stacks of bleed @ 1800.

stack calculates at 19 @1700.

the ranger then applies, 6 more,

stack calculates at 25 @1800+20% from trait.

Um no.

10 stacks will calculate @ 1700 for necro and the ranger’s 15 will calculate at 1800 + 20%.

thehipone.6812:

BrokenGlass.9356:

thehipone.6812:

With all the references to “steal the dps” and “overwrite the ownership” I think OP thinks that the last person to add to a stack somehow “takes over” the whole stack. Therefore, in OPs world if a necro dumps 10 bleeds on something and a ranger comes by with hidden barbs and adds a bleed then he “steals the dps” of the necros 10 bleeds and adds the hidden barbs multiplier to it.

This is not how it works.

no that’s not right

the necro comes in with 10 stacks of bleeds @ say 1700 condi dmg.

then the ranger applies 9 stacks of bleed @ 1800.

stack calculates at 19 @1700.

the ranger then applies, 6 more,

stack calculates at 25 @1800+20% from trait.

Um no.

10 stacks will calculate @ 1700 for necro and the ranger’s 15 will calculate at 1800 + 20%.

I think we need to do some testing.

because, either my memory of experience is wrong, or, the wiki is wrong, or both.

but if I’m right, then will this not result in huge damage bonuses if exploited? and isnt that worth testing?

BrokenGlass.9356:

NikeEU.7690:

I don’t think you quite understand. Everyone’s conditions all tick for exactly whatever they are supposed to tick for. There is no more overwriting or whatever since they removed the condi cap.

I’m not sure that’s right,

It’s pretty obvious you’re not sure. I am right.

Can you explain the phenomena of loosing the responsibility for your damage ticks?

there isn’t such a phenomena.

or suddenly becoming responsible for way more than your doing?

There isn’t such a phenomena

I’ve experienced “stack stealing”, as recently as yesterday. I don’t mean to be contrary, and I know who you are, but I feel this is a thing we can exploit.

If you can’t provide video evidence of stack stealing I am afraid you aren’t going to get a single person to take you seriously. Also, small fluctuations in Might stacks or GotL stacks could easily be responsible for the changes you are perceiving in your damage ticks.

NikeEU.7690:

BrokenGlass.9356:

NikeEU.7690:

I don’t think you quite understand. Everyone’s conditions all tick for exactly whatever they are supposed to tick for. There is no more overwriting or whatever since they removed the condi cap.

I’m not sure that’s right,

It’s pretty obvious you’re not sure. I am right.

Can you explain the phenomena of loosing the responsibility for your damage ticks?

there isn’t such a phenomena.

or suddenly becoming responsible for way more than your doing?

There isn’t such a phenomena

I’ve experienced “stack stealing”, as recently as yesterday. I don’t mean to be contrary, and I know who you are, but I feel this is a thing we can exploit.

If you can’t provide video evidence of stack stealing I am afraid you aren’t going to get a single person to take you seriously. Also, small fluctuations in Might stacks or GotL stacks could easily be responsible for the changes you are perceiving in your damage ticks.

cool, I’ll have to try to get video.

So, y’all ought note, that my quote up top, describing how condi’s work isn’t mine, its from the wiki, on intensity stacking conditions. linked in OP.

Any suggestions for good video capture software? I know that’s your bag.

OBS.

15 condi ticks

Wiki is wrong because that line was wrote before the condition patch and nobody took the time to go on everything there is on the wiki to update everything.

No need test it really. You are the only person I know that think this is working differently. Each stack of condition use the stack of the person that put them there. There is some special situation like Epidemic that use the Necro stats when they copy the condition of others or the venomshare which allow other players to apply condition which use the stats from the thief. But those are very specific example.

I’ll keep a closer eye on this myself, because I’m also in the “I swear I’ve seen this happen” camp.

I was pugging some fractals the other day on my all-zerk Chronomancer, alongside a dual-pistol condi Engi. I fired off Mind Wrack, incidentally inflicting some Confusion due to traits. I saw damage from that for a tick, and then the Engineer fired his bouncing lightning shot – confuse stacks went from 3 up to 6, but I was no longer seeing damage ticks.

So, maybe I’m smoking salt, here, or there’s something else going on, or maybe it really does work the way the wiki suggests.

Incidentally, if anyone confirms it one way or the other, it might make sense to update the wiki accordingly.

What I did notice though, is on my condi necro build, I got the skill that makes chill do damage, and sometimes when I apply chill, then someone else applies chill, mine no longer does damage.

MrPersons.1560:

What I did notice though, is on my condi necro build, I got the skill that makes chill do damage, and sometimes when I apply chill, then someone else applies chill, mine no longer does damage.

Chill still stacks in duration and has a small cap due to pvp reasons. It would be quite easy to have your chill overwritten.

OP is probably maining mesmer and continuum-splitted himself back into the past where stacks used to be overwritten.

Lendruil.9061:

OP is probably maining mesmer and continuum-splitted himself back into the past where stacks used to be overwritten.

while I do have a mesmer, I rarely play it.

and no, mostly the effects were observed playing elementalist, and staling the stacks from a condi engineer.

I’m going to test this and try to get the game capture software running, I think it would be a short video on an indestructible golem with one willing participant. No worries. I’ll get back and update your guys when I have proof.

even if I’m proving myself wrong #scienceftw

OP is mixing different things to come to an incorrect conclusion.

“For duration effects, if the same effect is present from multiple sources, the source with the greatest intensity will be used up first.

Means simply the duration is calculated according to the intensity. Not damage.

Person A starts 3 stacks of might for 10 seconds. Person B starts 8 stacks of might for 10 seconds, but 2 seconds later.
Timer runs : 3 stacks for 2 seconds, 8 stacks added for 10 seconds, after 10 seconds drops down to 3 stacks for a remaining 8 seconds. Strongest intensity used up first.
3 stacks – 2 seconds
8 added = 11 stacks for 10 seconds
drops to 3 stacks for another 8 seconds.
(was just an example)
Simple :

When that effect expires the effect from the next most powerful source will resume and use the amount of time it had remaining when the more powerful effect started (which can be its entire time if it started while the other source was on top of the stack)

The sources with the greatest intensity and number of stacks will take priority in calculating damage

This has nothing to do with duration.
As in previous example :

3 stacks of might for 2 seconds : increase overall damage by 3 stacks for 2 seconds.
8 stacks are added running 10 seconds : dmg increased to 11 stacks (8+3) for the full 10 seconds.
8 stacks end, remaining 3 stacks run for remaining 8 seconds (10s-first 2s) : dmg increased by 3 stacks again for remaining 8 seconds of the first source.

This is valid for ALL sources of conditions but only for might and vulnerability the STACK cannot go higher then 25. Rest up to 1500.

It’s not that hard to understand really. All conditions except the 2 mentioned can be stacked in intensity to 1500, no matter the duration. The duration is only important as in how stack duration is calculated based on the intensity of the condition.

If someone applies 1200 burn damage for 10 seconds, they will gain priority in duration above all others if those are below the intensity of the first source. The stack duration of the second one (with 1100 burn for example) will resume after the first duration runs out.
The burns are all added, but the duration is calculated based on the highest to lowest intensity. That’s why a WB for example can still burn for the maximum duration of which a burn can be applied, (highest possible duration of any burn skill) even after you stopped hitting it.

In short i could have said :

The one who has the highest intensity will be used to calculate the duration of the total number of stacks, and then the next one in line will be used to calculate the duration…etc etc.

The damage will decrease as the number of stacks are descending unless another stack of dmg is added. But it’s duration will not prioritize unless it has the highest intensity.

So is this an arguement about what number is showing as the duration for intensity stacking conditions?

Take Shadow Behe as an example : you can see the number of stacks fluctuate constantly. It rizes when another stack is added, it lowers when a stack ends it’s duration.
The one with the highest intensity ends first, since that one was on top of the duration list, the one with the lowest intensity ends last since that one was at the bottom of the list. So basically, the damage fluctuates the same way.

OP is trying to find a way to calculate how to apply stacks the best way in order to find the most damage for the longest duration. Something like that, but only for condi dmg.

Sthenith.5196:

Take Shadow Behe as an example : you can see the number of stacks fluctuate constantly. It rizes when another stack is added, it lowers when a stack ends it’s duration.
The one with the highest intensity ends first, since that one was on top of the duration list, the one with the lowest intensity ends last since that one was at the bottom of the list. So basically, the damage fluctuates the same way.

OP is trying to find a way to calculate how to apply stacks the best way in order to find the most damage for the longest duration. Something like that, but only for condi dmg.

Except that isn’t how it works at all. I apply 5 bleeds, I do 5 bleeds worth of damage per second based on my buffs. That’s how it works for everyone. Referencing ancient wiki articles from before the condi cap change isn’t going to change that.

Thaddeus.4891:

It’s just me or this was so freaking long and I still don’t get his point?

Yeah I lost it after reading about halfway.

Honestly, just wear condi gear and dodge stuffs. It shouldn’t be any more complex than this… it’s just a game rofl…

NikeEU.7690:

Sthenith.5196:

Take Shadow Behe as an example : you can see the number of stacks fluctuate constantly. It rizes when another stack is added, it lowers when a stack ends it’s duration.
The one with the highest intensity ends first, since that one was on top of the duration list, the one with the lowest intensity ends last since that one was at the bottom of the list. So basically, the damage fluctuates the same way.

OP is trying to find a way to calculate how to apply stacks the best way in order to find the most damage for the longest duration. Something like that, but only for condi dmg.

Except that isn’t how it works at all. I apply 5 bleeds, I do 5 bleeds worth of damage per second based on my buffs. That’s how it works for everyone. Referencing ancient wiki articles from before the condi cap change isn’t going to change that.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-June-23-2015

These are the patch notes for June 23rd. You know, the patch you said changed how this works? After rereading it extensively… No changes were made to how intensity stacking conditions are calculated. At least, not that were written down and detailed. All conditions were, in fact, changed to intensity stackers. But the effect of intensity stacking conditions wasn’t changed.

Can you reference where it describes the change for everyone to have individual calculations? Perhaps I missed it.

Now, I do concede that it’s possible that this was changed either:
A. Before June 23, at which point please provide a link.
B. Between June 23rd and now, at which point please provide a link.

Also, thanks for the tip on the broadcast software. I appreciate that’s its free. I’ll be putting together a video for you here soon. Just think of all the videos you can make after I prove you wrong!

And also, in the event your not keen on clicking, here the text from the link I posted that covers conditions.

“*Condition Updates *
Damaging conditions were all reworked to better ensure damage is properly delivered in large-scale combat. All damaging conditions have been changed to intensity-stacking, and the maximum number of stacks for each damaging condition has been raised to a much larger number that should never be hit under normal circumstances.
All damage conditions will now stack up to 1500 times.
Bleeding:
The formula for this condition has been rescaled to account for the new behavior of damaging conditions and to put more focus on the condition damage stat.
New damage over time: 2 + (0.25 * Level) + (0.06 * Condition Damage)
Burning:
This condition will now stack in intensity. The formula for this condition has been rescaled to account for the new behavior of damaging conditions and to put more focus on the condition damage stat. Creatures that apply burning have been rebalanced to account for this change.
New damage over time: 7.5 + (1.55 * Level) + (0.155 * Condition Damage)
Confusion:
This condition now has two damage components—damage over time, and the damage dealt when an ability completes. The damage has also been normalized between all game modes. The formula for this condition has been rescaled to account for the new behavior of damaging conditions and to put more focus on the condition damage stat. The skill-use damage will also now trigger when the affected target is interrupted during skill activation.
New damage over time: 2 + (0.1 * Level) + (0.035 * Condition Damage)
New trigger damage: 3.5 + (0.575 * Level) + (0.0625 * Condition Damage)
Poison:
This condition will now stack in intensity. Poison’s healing reduction will not depend on the number of stacks. Any poison will result in a static -33%, just as it currently does. The formula for this condition has been rescaled to account for the new behavior of damaging conditions and to put more focus on the condition damage stat. Creatures that apply burning have been rebalanced to account for this change.
New damage over time: 3.5 + (0.375 * Level) + (0.06 * Condition Damage)
Torment:
The formula for this condition has been rescaled to account for the new behavior of damaging conditions and to put more focus on the condition damage stat.
New damage over time: 1.5 + (0.18 * Level) + (0.045 * Condition Damage)
New damage while moving: 3 + (0.36 * Level) + (0.09 * Condition Damage)
Vulnerability:
This condition was changed so that it not only increases direct damage, it also increases condition damage. Each stack will increase direct damage by 1% and condition damage by 1%.
Slow:
This new condition is now present on some profession abilities and slows the activation of skills by 50% while active.”

Yeah that’s not how it works.

Use a dps meter or track your combat log and you will see this quite clearly. The game doesn’t even consider other players when calculating damage you do.

Maybe you have somethng about max conditrion dmg beiung ele

Necro has a trait: convert 13% of precision to condition dmg and with rabid gear and undead runes a huge number can be achieved as well. should be curses as well

Mesmer is quite unique cause it has 2 signets, one giving 180 condi dmg and 1 giving 20% duration.
Clones do not do dmg, they do however apply conditions. evasive deception tends to be very nice in combination with scepter, Why? You can do confusion, torment and blind on each shatter as well and confusion on blind… giving 2 confusion, 1 blind and 1 torment / illusion on shatter -ON ALL 4- shatters, with F2 doing an aditional confusion.
Didn’t test this for chrono tbh. (chaos/illusions/dueling)

And I understand why warrior wasn’t in this but the banner of strength and 25 might alone give a nice 170+750 point bonus to condition dmg. this being roughly a 50% addition to most condi builds base values.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Maybe you have somethng about max conditrion dmg beiung ele

Necro has a trait: convert 13% of precision to condition dmg and with rabid gear and undead runes a huge number can be achieved as well. should be curses as well

Mesmer is quite unique cause it has 2 signets, one giving 180 condi dmg and 1 giving 20% duration.
Clones do not do dmg, they do however apply conditions. evasive deception tends to be very nice in combination with scepter, Why? You can do confusion, torment and blind on each shatter as well and confusion on blind… giving 2 confusion, 1 blind and 1 torment / illusion on shatter -ON ALL 4- shatters, with F2 doing an aditional confusion.
Didn’t test this for chrono tbh. (chaos/illusions/dueling)

And I understand why warrior wasn’t in this but the banner of strength and 25 might alone give a nice 170+750 point bonus to condition dmg. this being roughly a 50% addition to most condi builds base values.

I hadn’t included every conversion trait, because a lot of classes have it. But ele is the only class with two traits to convert the same stat.

Otherwise there would have been a lot more classes mentioned.

Also Necro can probably get higher condi dmg with wanderer gear. Primary condi and precision. Secondary toughness expertise. Would have to test…. But seems valid off the top of my head. May not be the best build, but should maximize that trait nicely.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/combat-changes-dotsanddashes/

The change isn’t mentioned here either.

Now I still could be missing something. Seems less and less likely as I go on.

I still intend to shoot video evidence.

However, if things were changed in the way NikeEU suggests, Anet did an awful job of documenting it, and the collective memory of man kind (ye olde’ internet) fails to find evidence. Beyond the fact that we know that might can boost currently applied stacks. Which could be consistent with either thesis.

And hey, I have to be honest. I hope I’m wrong. Being proven wrong means you learned something.

Can anyone help prove me wrong? Not conjecture… Or simply stating “I am right.” Or say…. Mislabeling a current post as an “ancient” one.

What gain is there in me spreading mis-info? None.

So if I’m wrong and you prove it, I accept it.

If, however, I’m right… The amount of extra damage a carefully built team can generate could be awesome.

If you want to test it. I suggest to test both stacking condi and duration condi. Here the two test I would suggest. (I’m way too lazy to video record that tbh, and I will probably forget to do it by the next time I’m in front of the game).

Take two warrior with bow. The first one full viper, the second berserker. Use Pin Down for both since it’s a super long lasting condition. The Viper does his Pin Down, the Zerker does his. Does your bleed dmg is consistant throughout the duration for both? Do the same the other way around with the zerker first, then the Viper. You should use the combat log for that. It’s easy to see if the bleed damage stay consistant of not.

Ideally, don’t but any trait or sigil that will increase condi dmg or might.

You can also do that with Chill. Two necromancer. One is a reaper with Chill dmg trait, while the other one don’t have it. The best skill for testing that would be Spinal Shivers. It’s the longest chill in a single application. Again, does the damage stay constant even when the second necro put chill that does no damage over it?

Thaddeus.4891:

If you want to test it. I suggest to test both stacking condi and duration condi. Here the two test I would suggest. (I’m way too lazy to video record that tbh, and I will probably forget to do it by the next time I’m in front of the game).

Take two warrior with bow. The first one full viper, the second berserker. Use Pin Down for both since it’s a super long lasting condition. The Viper does his Pin Down, the Zerker does his. Does your bleed dmg is consistant throughout the duration for both? Do the same the other way around with the zerker first, then the Viper. You should use the combat log for that. It’s easy to see if the bleed damage stay consistant of not.

Ideally, don’t but any trait or sigil that will increase condi dmg or might.

You can also do that with Chill. Two necromancer. One is a reaper with Chill dmg trait, while the other one don’t have it. The best skill for testing that would be Spinal Shivers. It’s the longest chill in a single application. Again, does the damage stay constant even when the second necro put chill that does no damage over it?

Good idea, and I’m sure the test-video will include something similar.

I had been thinking of having an engineer apply confuse with bomb and wrench over a zerk mesmer’s f2 shatter. If I have video from both screens, we should see a drastic increase, and a swap in ownership.

But the sinister v viper is a good comparison. Though the damage scores are close. I may use sinister vs celestial to make the difference in numbers easier to see.

Also, once the theory is proved, then the duration kicks in.

Remember I’m not testing whether or not sinister or viper is better on a specific class in a vacuum. I’m testing whether class specific damage boost traits can be exploited for a party wide damage bonus. If my theory is true, then it will pay to have a few stacking damage, and a few stacking duration, in order to get the most stacks for the longest, which you can then “amplify” with a quick burst of alot of strong ones.

thehipone.6812:

With all the references to “steal the dps” and “overwrite the ownership” I think OP thinks that the last person to add to a stack somehow “takes over” the whole stack. Therefore, in OPs world if a necro dumps 10 bleeds on something and a ranger comes by with hidden barbs and adds a bleed then he “steals the dps” of the necros 10 bleeds and adds the hidden barbs multiplier to it.

This is not how it works.

If that was true, will we read complaints like “Class x sucks because it’s stealing my stacks”?

I am of the opinion that many players just make it more scientific than it needs to be.

Falanu.4289:

thehipone.6812:

With all the references to “steal the dps” and “overwrite the ownership” I think OP thinks that the last person to add to a stack somehow “takes over” the whole stack. Therefore, in OPs world if a necro dumps 10 bleeds on something and a ranger comes by with hidden barbs and adds a bleed then he “steals the dps” of the necros 10 bleeds and adds the hidden barbs multiplier to it.

This is not how it works.

If that was true, will we read complaints like “Class x sucks because it’s stealing my stacks”?

I am of the opinion that many players just make it more scientific than it needs to be.

I would doubt we’d hear complaints, because the stack could never have gotten as high as it did without everyone adding to it. And the “ownership” of a stack trades often.

Also, I disagree with people making things too scientific. Considering that the game designers forbid us from using damage meters, or even being terribly clear about how things work under the hood, finding the optimum will always require testing.

That said, if you like to gear up and play the game and not worry about inter-class interaction… Or synergy, or whatever… No worries. Good on ya.

I’m trying to further the meta discussion.

If I’m wrong, then a bunch of people argued about nothing on the internet… Another Tuesday. So what?

If I’m right, then the way we think about constructing a condition damage team will radically change, and classes will gain build diversity.

BrokenGlass.9356:

If I’m right, then the way we think about constructing a condition damage team will radically change, and classes will gain build diversity.

Too much talk, not enough proof. There is just way too much running in circle here my friend.

If that was the case, then;
If someone applies 3 stacks of burning with 1000 condi damage that’ll do 859/s
then i come by and do 5 stacks of burning, with 1500 condi damage = 1820/s, i would steal his stacks, doing 2.679/s with 8 stacks?
Because i’m pretty sure i would still do 1820 for 5 stacks

Thaddeus.4891:

BrokenGlass.9356:

If I’m right, then the way we think about constructing a condition damage team will radically change, and classes will gain build diversity.

Too much talk, not enough proof. There is just way too much running in circle here my friend.

Sure, but such is the nature of living a life. I have work to do 40 hour of the week. I can post from my phone in down time… So I can’t accelerate the production of a video that either proves or disproves my theory.

And as I’ve said. Even if I prove myself wrong, I’ll still post it.

So, as it turns out editing video is time consuming. And if I’m being blunt, its not as fun making a video that proves yourself wrong. Also, I realized that hosting is an ordeal, so, I figured anyone who cares about the resolution of this post, would appreciate text as much as video.

Conclusion: ‘stack stealing’ does not seem to be a phenomena.

We tested, with 2 engineers, (in the meta-condi build as presented by the video posted on Nike’s YouTube channel) one with Berserker gear, the other with rabid. (Rabid was chosen due to rune of the undead, and raising the condition damage stat as high as we could get it in the pvp build editor.)

The test we conducted was simple.

Zerk engi drops the confusion bomb, then stops attacking. Condi engi drops the confuse bomb and static shot. Observe and compare combat logs… And at no time did one player or the other subsume control of the stack over another. We also did this test in reverse order. Also no dice. We also repeated this test on pve mobs, rather than pvp golems to rule out some difference in function between pvp-e.

So… crow tastes good.

But I learned not to trust the wiki. (Why do we have it in the first place if it’s not being updated?) Also I learned that Anet doesn’t always list every change they make in patch notes. (Why give us patch notes at all?)

So either stack stealing was never a thing… And the wiki entry I linked in OP has been wrong for 3-4 years. Or it was changed at some point in time, and Anet didn’t detail the change and the wiki was not updated.

As for my subjective experience of seeing stack stealing? I don’t know. My best guess is that combinations of might and vunrability stack fluctuations, alcohol, and sleep deprivation must have skewed my memory… Which is the lowest form of evidence in a court of law anyways.

So a summary of this thread?

I accidentally trolled you guys. Whoops.

BrokenGlass.9356:

So either stack stealing was never a thing… And the wiki entry I linked in OP has been wrong for 3-4 years. Or it was changed at some point in time, and Anet didn’t detail the change and the wiki was not updated.

As for my subjective experience of seeing stack stealing? I don’t know. My best guess is that combinations of might and vunrability stack fluctuations, alcohol, and sleep deprivation must have skewed my memory… Which is the lowest form of evidence in a court of law anyways. .

It used to exist, and was changed. I recall it being on the video notes of their giant condi rework stream they had.

The OP figured it out on his own. Though for duration stacking conditions, like Chill, it’s simply first come first served. There’s no overriding taking place for those with more or any condition damage being applied. Since Chill’s capacity to apply damage is exclusive to a properly traited Reaper, that leaves every other source of Chill effectively blocking the Reaper’s and the Teams capacity to output damage. Which is kinda of a steaming pile of Bunk and should be changed.

BrokenGlass.9356:

But I learned not to trust the wiki. (Why do we have it in the first place if it’s not being updated?)

If you see something wrong on the wiki, please, please, please feel free to update it, or to leave a comment on the feedback/discussion page. I know nothing about conditions (hence why I’m reading this topic), so despite my knowledge of wiki editing, I don’t know how to fix the errors in the article!

The wiki is built by players, for players. Everyone reading this is welcome to contribute. Heck, I’m willing to down-right beg for your assistance!

My brain hurts.

I think you trolled yourself… it’s really not that hard to figure out. If other classes can “overwrite” a condi build’s condition, then the condi classes in the group would be at significant disadvantage and the damage would significantly decrease since everything could be overwritten by a non-condi class.

still waiting for the video

You tried. Maybe next time test before theorycrafting so much.