Guild Wars 2

The problem: GW2’s end game is lackluster at best and really provides no meaningful gameplay.

Why? The whole premise of the leveling system is flawed.

GW2 needs to get rid of scaled zones. It was a nice idea, but it is a terrible implementation. The zones should not scale users to the zones level. The rewards from monster drops (especially world boss tour drops) should be tweaked so that they drop zone-level appropriate items. With an emphasis on hero level to zone matching, the drops could be much more rewarding (i.e.: you have Exotic Level 10 weapons that drop from bosses in newbie zones). Make the scale of drops for all levels much greater.

Instead, the leveling process should be a long, drawn out experience that is rewarding in itself. Users should work hard to get from level to level, but each level should have great things available. With the current system, most people just can’t wait to buy the best possible blue/green gear for their current level and move on. With a different approach, we could have valuable items at all range of levels, 1-80, instead of the everything just falling into level 80 equipment.

With a rescaling of this proportion, I think it would vastly improve the GW2 experience. The game feels misguided in its current state. I played GW1 since 2005 and I’ve been hoping GW2 would get better as it goes along… it seems that the updates just make it worse. Every change is meant to water the game down for new players and provide just enough sustaining users so arena.net can pay the electric bill next month.

Makes title about endgame… complains about mid game… lel

Having played and worked for a Korean grinder import for several years, all I can say is from experience this isn’t going to sustain peoples’ interest, especially now, when those who remain are largely people who like or liked the speed of leveling. In said prior game, ten thousand hours didn’t even get me close to maxing. It was a breath of fresh air being able to enjoy GW2’s endgame features without first needing to grind all the way there.

Even games which do feature such long progression systems now are failing rapidly because of them. Wildstar? Archeage? BDO? Quick bursts and lots of hype followed by mass migration away when people realize they don’t have the time nor do they care to commit the time to reach just the beginning.

That’s not to say GW2’s endgame doesn’t need some adjustments (dungeons and other earlier content really could use changes, class balance needs huge adjustments, etc.). Extending the grind isn’t fun, especially with the current level-gated trait and skill system, and making it take longer for people who’ve already made several characters and just want the 80 to do things on won’t achieve really anything. Plus, it doesn’t fix endgame boredom; the people who get there after all that grinding still have what exactly to do? Go grind just like they would have been leveling up? It’s not logical.

How do you propose your solution keeps to the idea that no area should become out dated to play?

Because I like that I can go play in a mid level zone on my level 80 characters and not be so overpowered and so much more health that there is no risk to me.

Why would a level 80 go do a world boss in a starter area? Why risk not having enough players at low level world bosses because the players don’t have any characters at that level that they want to play?

Why should I have to worry while playing that the person running up to do the heart is a level 80 when I’m on a lower level character? Especially on one that drives a lot of progress from killing enemies? I don’t have the power to tag them faster than the level 80 can kill them, even if I’m geared for maximum DPS. Which is another tenant of game play that your solution has no answer for: not having to worry about another player coming up to ruin your experience.

So no, I don’t agree with your solution as it doesn’t solve any problem the game currently has.

GW2 needs to get rid of scaled zones.

I say if you’re considering level scaling then just don’t have levels at all since they then serve no good purpose. Instead everything should scale up to 80 but have its level hidden leaving crafting tiers for rarities and stat sets instead of levels. The entire game needs a reboot from the ground up if it’s going to be competitive against today’s top offerings.

For $60 what can a customer have-

Overwatch:

- Excellent framerate and smooth, responsive graphics
- No input lag
- Matches tend to be quick and even a practice mode where you team with real people against AI
-Smooth coding
-Modern API
-Excellent class balance and no class has far more options on very short cooldowns or passive procs compared to other champions
-Quick and convenient champion swapping.

Guild Wars 2:

-Direct X9
-Dated engine
-Lots of clipping
-Download speeds in the kb/s common for many
-Bad input lag at times
-Stuck bugs
-Entire periods where many classes are outside the meta
-Glaringly poor class balance. To illustrate the point team with a friend, both of you roll daredevils and record how many times someone asked one of you to switch, now do the same for scrapper. In a point holding game of course something that can 2v1 for absurd periods of time with a reflect always off cooldown somehow and stopping their resets having notoriously tiny windows is welcomed in many teams. That isn’t even mentioning gyros that can stomp, meaning the scrapper himself doesn’t need to commit to it but can simply leave it there and if a scrapper gets rezzed he has a nasty habit of resetting as if he weren’t downed. Then you have necros who can condi bomb and you can see where this is going.
-Very inconvenient and even detrimental to log out and swap classes as needed.

“Hey everybody, let’s try to improve Guild Wars 2 by redesigning it in a way that completely misses the whole point of Guild Wars 2!”

I feel like the OP’s suggestions don’t really improve the endgame, just delay it.

Agemnon.4608:

For $60 what can a customer have-

GW2 is $50 via the official website, or (a fairly reasonable) $35 on Amazon. I’m not a PvP player, and I don’t have any opinions about Overwatch, but I don’t know where you’re getting $60 from.

Sanghed.2318:

The problem: GW2’s end game is lackluster at best and really provides no meaningful gameplay.

Why? The whole premise of the leveling system is flawed.

GW2 needs to get rid of scaled zones. It was a nice idea, but it is a terrible implementation. The zones should not scale users to the zones level. The rewards from monster drops (especially world boss tour drops) should be tweaked so that they drop zone-level appropriate items. With an emphasis on hero level to zone matching, the drops could be much more rewarding (i.e.: you have Exotic Level 10 weapons that drop from bosses in newbie zones). Make the scale of drops for all levels much greater.

Instead, the leveling process should be a long, drawn out experience that is rewarding in itself. Users should work hard to get from level to level, but each level should have great things available. With the current system, most people just can’t wait to buy the best possible blue/green gear for their current level and move on. With a different approach, we could have valuable items at all range of levels, 1-80, instead of the everything just falling into level 80 equipment.

With a rescaling of this proportion, I think it would vastly improve the GW2 experience. The game feels misguided in its current state. I played GW1 since 2005 and I’ve been hoping GW2 would get better as it goes along… it seems that the updates just make it worse. Every change is meant to water the game down for new players and provide just enough sustaining users so arena.net can pay the electric bill next month.

This has nothing to do with endgame. You just talk about adjusting the path on how to get to 80. Might want to re-word the title of the thread if that’s the case.

Agemnon.4608:

GW2 needs to get rid of scaled zones.

I say if you’re considering level scaling then just don’t have levels at all since they then serve no good purpose. Instead everything should scale up to 80 but have its level hidden leaving crafting tiers for rarities and stat sets instead of levels. The entire game needs a reboot from the ground up if it’s going to be competitive against today’s top offerings.

For $60 what can a customer have-

Overwatch:

- Excellent framerate and smooth, responsive graphics
- No input lag
- Matches tend to be quick and even a practice mode where you team with real people against AI
-Smooth coding
-Modern API
-Excellent class balance and no class has far more options on very short cooldowns or passive procs compared to other champions
-Quick and convenient champion swapping.

Guild Wars 2:

-Direct X9
-Dated engine
-Lots of clipping
-Download speeds in the kb/s common for many
-Bad input lag at times
-Stuck bugs
-Entire periods where many classes are outside the meta
-Glaringly poor class balance. To illustrate the point team with a friend, both of you roll daredevils and record how many times someone asked one of you to switch, now do the same for scrapper. In a point holding game of course something that can 2v1 for absurd periods of time with a reflect always off cooldown somehow and stopping their resets having notoriously tiny windows is welcomed in many teams. That isn’t even mentioning gyros that can stomp, meaning the scrapper himself doesn’t need to commit to it but can simply leave it there and if a scrapper gets rezzed he has a nasty habit of resetting as if he weren’t downed. Then you have necros who can condi bomb and you can see where this is going.
-Very inconvenient and even detrimental to log out and swap classes as needed.

Overwatch is nothing like GW2. Overwatch is a fast paced PvP style objective based matches. GW2 is an MMO. It’s like saying GW2 needs to be more like CoD in order to stay competitive.

you are saying to go for hours killing the same mob using the same skills to go up one level is the fun? Play WYD. From level 1 to 400 is like 2 years LMAO. they even facilitate the work, there is a bot implemented in the own game, you can go to school and leave the PC on. Have fun with a game without playing it.

ugrakarma.9416:

you are saying to go for hours killing the same mob using the same skills to go up one level is the fun? Play WYD. From level 1 to 400 is like 2 years LMAO.

Sounds more like he’s saying people shouldn’t be able to have fun by teaming up with their friends (Both met in-game, or met out-of-game and brought in-game) and playing with them on a regular basis while expecting any sort of equitable experience. The game model of “have players have all their effort and gear be rendered irrelevant and always outpaced” is obsolete, and needs to go die in a trashcan.

For those who play WoW… how legendary does the sword Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker actually feel in-game?

Sanghed.2318:

the drops could be much more rewarding (i.e.: you have Exotic Level 10 weapons that drop from bosses in newbie zones). Make the scale of drops for all levels much greater.

There is no way to make a level 10 exotic weapon ever feel like a reward, because level 10 gear is kitten the moment you out-level it.

Instead, the leveling process should be a long, drawn out experience that is rewarding in itself. Users should work hard to get from level to level, but each level should have great things available. With the current system, most people just can’t wait to buy the best possible blue/green gear for their current level and move on. With a different approach, we could have valuable items at all range of levels, 1-80, instead of the everything just falling into level 80 equipment.

It is flat-out impossible to have actually-valuable items at any level other than the cap unless that item has level-independent use. Under your proposed system, every level gained flushes everything you’ve worked hard for the previous level down the drain because it’s now useless.

I felt Level scaling is one of the best feature in the game, and i am not alone here. No matter i am playing with low lv friend or roaming along in low lv area, the fights still feel fun, not fear about take away all the fun the low level around you. Without this OVERPOWER fear i can actively join the fight and everyone have fun.

Why would someone think going low lv zone with a max lv is end game is beyond my imagination. Maybe somebody preferred the end game is one shotting any living thing in a starter zone playing God is the end game. I am definitely not one of those.

Agemnon.4608:

GW2 needs to get rid of scaled zones.

I say if you’re considering level scaling then just don’t have levels at all since they then serve no good purpose. Instead everything should scale up to 80 but have its level hidden leaving crafting tiers for rarities and stat sets instead of levels. The entire game needs a reboot from the ground up if it’s going to be competitive against today’s top offerings.

For $60 what can a customer have-

Overwatch:

- Excellent framerate and smooth, responsive graphics
- No input lag
- Matches tend to be quick and even a practice mode where you team with real people against AI
-Smooth coding
-Modern API
-Excellent class balance and no class has far more options on very short cooldowns or passive procs compared to other champions
-Quick and convenient champion swapping.

It also DOESN’T offer:
-An open world to explore
-Any notable form of persistence
-
And that “matches tend to be quick” is like… what kittening language are you speaking? It’s not MMO or RPG. Persistent drop-in/drop out play is MMORPG, not “Quick Matches”.

Guild Wars 2:

-Direct X9
-Dated engine
-Lots of clipping
-Download speeds in the kb/s common for many
-Bad input lag at times
-Stuck bugs
-Entire periods where many classes are outside the meta
-Glaringly poor class balance. To illustrate the point team with a friend, both of you roll daredevils and record how many times someone asked one of you to switch, now do the same for scrapper. In a point holding game of course something that can 2v1 for absurd periods of time with a reflect always off cooldown somehow and stopping their resets having notoriously tiny windows is welcomed in many teams. That isn’t even mentioning gyros that can stomp, meaning the scrapper himself doesn’t need to commit to it but can simply leave it there and if a scrapper gets rezzed he has a nasty habit of resetting as if he weren’t downed. Then you have necros who can condi bomb and you can see where this is going.
-Very inconvenient and even detrimental to log out and swap classes as needed.

You forgot “The ability to play as a kitten beefy dragon-cat that you can almost fully customize the appearance of” and “A massive world to explore and hang out in”

Overwatch sounds like a waste of $60.

Agemnon.4608:

Overwatch:
MMOFPS

Guild Wars 2:
MMORPG

You killed any relevancy your post had when you tried making that comparison. Try again.

Overwatch is not balanced at all, everyone plays Reinhardt and Bastion while being healed by Lucio, often with Pharah as a Offensive, and then one more random, show up with McCree and everyone is gonna think you’re noob.

STIHL.2489:

Overwatch is not balanced at all, everyone plays Reinhardt and Bastion while being healed by Lucio, often with Pharah as a Offensive, and then one more random, show up with McCree and everyone is gonna think you’re noob.

But it has “excellent framerate” and excessive sexualising of Tracer’s butt!!!

/s

Agemnon.4608:

GW2 needs to get rid of scaled zones.

I say if you’re considering level scaling then just don’t have levels at all since they then serve no good purpose. Instead everything should scale up to 80 but have its level hidden leaving crafting tiers for rarities and stat sets instead of levels. The entire game needs a reboot from the ground up if it’s going to be competitive against today’s top offerings.

For $60 what can a customer have-

Overwatch:

~ snip ~

Guild Wars 2:

~ snip ~

Sound like just a PvP only comparison. What I want to know is how Overwatch’s PvE is better than GW2. I’m just gonna make myself some popcorn and wait on your keen observations and well-thought-out response.

No, no… No rush, I’ve got time. Please enlighten me as to what I, a non-PvPer, am missing….

Silas Eorth.7348:

Agemnon.4608:

GW2 needs to get rid of scaled zones.

I say if you’re considering level scaling then just don’t have levels at all since they then serve no good purpose. Instead everything should scale up to 80 but have its level hidden leaving crafting tiers for rarities and stat sets instead of levels. The entire game needs a reboot from the ground up if it’s going to be competitive against today’s top offerings.

For $60 what can a customer have-

Overwatch:

~ snip ~

Guild Wars 2:

~ snip ~

Sound like just a PvP only comparison. What I want to know is how Overwatch’s PvE is better than GW2. I’m just gonna make myself some popcorn and wait on your keen observations and well-thought-out response.

No, no… No rush, I’ve got time. Please enlighten me as to what I, a non-PvPer, am missing….

diablo 3’s pve is more entertaining than gw2’s, what’s your point?

The game you want already exists. It’s called Wildstar.

You may have heard of it.

Agemnon.4608:

GW2 needs to get rid of scaled zones.

I say if you’re considering level scaling then just don’t have levels at all since they then serve no good purpose. Instead everything should scale up to 80 but have its level hidden leaving crafting tiers for rarities and stat sets instead of levels. The entire game needs a reboot from the ground up if it’s going to be competitive against today’s top offerings.

For $60 what can a customer have-

Overwatch:

- Excellent framerate and smooth, responsive graphics
- No input lag
- Matches tend to be quick and even a practice mode where you team with real people against AI
-Smooth coding
-Modern API
-Excellent class balance and no class has far more options on very short cooldowns or passive procs compared to other champions
-Quick and convenient champion swapping.

Guild Wars 2:

-Direct X9
-Dated engine
-Lots of clipping
-Download speeds in the kb/s common for many
-Bad input lag at times
-Stuck bugs
-Entire periods where many classes are outside the meta
-Glaringly poor class balance. To illustrate the point team with a friend, both of you roll daredevils and record how many times someone asked one of you to switch, now do the same for scrapper. In a point holding game of course something that can 2v1 for absurd periods of time with a reflect always off cooldown somehow and stopping their resets having notoriously tiny windows is welcomed in many teams. That isn’t even mentioning gyros that can stomp, meaning the scrapper himself doesn’t need to commit to it but can simply leave it there and if a scrapper gets rezzed he has a nasty habit of resetting as if he weren’t downed. Then you have necros who can condi bomb and you can see where this is going.
-Very inconvenient and even detrimental to log out and swap classes as needed.

The problem with that comparison is that I would not buy Overwatch regardless of price or other features …

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

STIHL.2489:

Overwatch is not balanced at all, everyone plays Reinhardt and Bastion while being healed by Lucio, often with Pharah as a Offensive, and then one more random, show up with McCree and everyone is gonna think you’re noob.

But it has “excellent framerate” and excessive sexualising of Tracer’s butt!!!

/s

We shall agree to agree with that.

hot butt... distracting the gamer boys since forever...

The only people that should be complaining about an endgame problem are the people who’ve done everything the game has to offer and are currently awaiting for more because, i guess its taking too long to produce more content? Compared to every MMO ever that encounters the same issue but some how people seem to forget???

Just because you choose not to pvp or pve has nothing to do with it. Its like, here we have a game that lets you play what you want because you feel like it, and you got people here saying “I did all the pve content, (or so they believe) i want more content.” Well what about pvp? “I don’t pvp, so this game has no content.”

First you gotta remember that this is an MMORPG. Its a genre that trys to cover all these different aspects of other more focused games into one. Its not going to do it perfectly, because its not gonna be completely focused on just one aspect. For example, if you want great story telling go play Mass effect or the witcher because thats what those games specialize in. If you want great pvp matches and thats all you care about, go play smite or overwatch because those games specialize in that.

The biggest thing MMO’s specialize in, is variety of play. Variety in a persistent world. If Mass effect had this, it wouldn’t be as great of a single player story because they have to alter it to have it make sense with all these other people running around and DLC would have to be delayed due to server issues trying to accommodate other players etc.

GW2 lacks incentive for players at endgame, but not for any of the reasons you’ve mentioned. The level-scaling is more of a structural, design necessity than a tack-on. You see, it makes the gameplay experience consistent throughout regardless of level, which makes it easier for high level players to integrate into lower-level maps, do events, and essentially create this “living world” vibe that Anet has worked to create.

The real issues with GW2 endgame:

-Lack of any semblance of role structure so PvE combat boils down to stack and zerg.
-Elite specialization bloats options without actually adding any depth to combat.
-Limited weapon skills and pigeon-holed-best trait builds means nearly 0 variety.
-There is a gear treadmill, but the main content of the game doesn’t necessitate it.
-Gearing up alts with legendary / ascended gear is not very feasible = low replay-ability.
-Outside of WvW, engaging group (10+) content BARELY exists and the low depth of the combat system due to lack of defined roles does not support the gameplay, making the experience very cheap and not very fulfilling.
-A lot of gear, items, and development time is put into the cash shop rather than real endgame content. The mastery system is one of the biggest jokes I have ever seen in an MMO game.
-Endgame content is basically grinding for aesthetics in what essentially boils down to a very pretty, but vapid gameplay experience.

Most mmorpg end game revolve around pvp and why is that so? Because pvping is the most self-sustain design ever. Take for example, counter strike, team fortress, dota, all of those games are pvping in a sense where players fight each other.

You want a pve end game? It doesn’t exist in a non-sandbox game.

SkyShroud.2865:

Most mmorpg end game revolve around pvp and why is that so? Because pvping is the most self-sustain design ever. Take for example, counter strike, team fortress, dota, all of those games are pvping in a sense where players fight each other.

You want a pve end game? It doesn’t exist in a non-sandbox game.

Not even in WoW on their PvE servers? Interesting.

Whats WoW’s end game? Raid? Grind tokens to upgrade? Some super hard dungeons? Level your house? What happen after that? There is a difference between self-sustain and time consuming. Majority of pve contents are simply time consuming, it isn’t self-sustain in design.

SkyShroud.2865:

Whats WoW’s end game? Raid? Grind tokens to upgrade? Some super hard dungeons? Level your house? What happen after that? There is a difference between self-sustain and time consuming. Majority of pve contents are simply time consuming, it isn’t self-sustain in design.

How about that. That means all of us poor PvE players have no hope and nothing to do after a short time has passed. And here I thought I was still enjoying the game after several years of playing. Thanks for letting me know. Guess I’ll move on to another game now.

Not necessary, time consuming content as it names implies, are time consuming which can means short duration or long duration, subjective to individual game time. People who don’t play as much as a hardcore pve gamers will not have the feeling that the pve contents are running out.

I think that only the top 1000 AP holders in the leaderboard will feel the contents are running out.

SkyShroud.2865:

Not necessary, time consuming content as it names implies, are time consuming which can means short duration or long duration, subjective to individual game time. People who don’t play as much as a hardcore pve gamers do will not have the feeling that the pve contents are running out.

If PvP was that engaging then the PvP population in a game would be larger than the PvE population. In this game WvW and sPvP population is less than the PvE side, so maybe it’s not as sustaining as you might think. PvP players can get just as tired of repetitive PvP in a game and move on to another. I doubt that PvP players stay with one game for years and years doing the same PvP over and over

SkyShroud.2865:

Most mmorpg end game revolve around pvp and why is that so? Because pvping is the most self-sustain design ever. Take for example, counter strike, team fortress, dota, all of those games are pvping in a sense where players fight each other.

You want a pve end game? It doesn’t exist in a non-sandbox game.

What exactly do you mean by sandbox game? Open world PK? Most PvE players would leave immediately. I’ve started BDO with a bunch of friends and everyone, without exception, left after reaching the level to unlock PK.

You can start a game as a PvP game and it will sustain itself as a PvP game. Because that’s what the players came for. However if you try to force PvP onto someone who came for PvE you will rapidly loose players. People will find other games where they can play what they want.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

SkyShroud.2865:

Not necessary, time consuming content as it names implies, are time consuming which can means short duration or long duration, subjective to individual game time. People who don’t play as much as a hardcore pve gamers do will not have the feeling that the pve contents are running out.

If PvP was that engaging then the PvP population in a game would be larger than the PvE population. In this game WvW and sPvP population is less than the PvE side, so maybe it’s not as sustaining as you might think. PvP players can get just as tired of repetitive PvP in a game and move on to another. I doubt that PvP players stay with one game for years and years doing the same PvP over and over

Not really, there are more PvE players than PvP/WvW simply because of the interest. In other words, the players base attracted to gw2 simply prefer to do PvE more than PvP / WvW. PvP contents is indeed self-sustain in nature but like you said, people do get bored and that is why we have so many games, thousands of games, because people get bored and move on to other games. However, it doesn’t change that self-sustain formula but even that formula need things to compliment it in the event things got old for the players, to retain the players. For example, wc3 and sc2 have its world editor to create custom maps.

It is very common for PvE players not doing PvP or WvW at all but it is uncommon for PvP / WvW players not doing PvE, it might be strange but it isn’t that strange. Like you said, people get bored so they can move onto PvE every once awhile afterall PvE is the starting line of most mmorpg but can you say the same thing for PvE players? Will PvE players play PvP / WvW when PvE got bored instead of coming to forums to ask for more?

High AP holders (Top 1000) are only high because they did all 3 game modes, so when they say they are running out of contents, they really mean it. Myself is in the top 1000 AP and I haven’t finish my HOT yet, so I still have contents to do. So when people complaining about lack of end game or contents, I wonder, have they really done everything or they just being really selective on things they do.

BunjiKugashira.9754:

SkyShroud.2865:

Most mmorpg end game revolve around pvp and why is that so? Because pvping is the most self-sustain design ever. Take for example, counter strike, team fortress, dota, all of those games are pvping in a sense where players fight each other.

You want a pve end game? It doesn’t exist in a non-sandbox game.

What exactly do you mean by sandbox game? Open world PK? Most PvE players would leave immediately. I’ve started BDO with a bunch of friends and everyone, without exception, left after reaching the level to unlock PK.

You can start a game as a PvP game and it will sustain itself as a PvP game. Because that’s what the players came for. However if you try to force PvP onto someone who came for PvE you will rapidly loose players. People will find other games where they can play what they want.

You need to google what sandbox mmorpg is, to put it in really simple terms, players generated contents.

SkyShroud.2865:

You need to google what sandbox mmorpg is, to put it in really simple terms, players generated contents.

I did. All so called sandbox mmorpgs that I found have open world grieving aka PK. All attempts at defining the genre stated a lot of stuff that can also be found in a themepark mmorpg plus the open world grieving. Depending on the definition even with full player looting. Since all these attempts at defining the genre are from fansites though and there doesn’t seem to be an official definition, I wanted to know what you specifically meant by using the term.

Sanghed.2318:

The problem: GW2’s end game is lackluster at best and really provides no meaningful gameplay.

Why? The whole premise of the leveling system is flawed.

GW2 needs to get rid of scaled zones. It was a nice idea, but it is a terrible implementation. The zones should not scale users to the zones level. The rewards from monster drops (especially world boss tour drops) should be tweaked so that they drop zone-level appropriate items. With an emphasis on hero level to zone matching, the drops could be much more rewarding (i.e.: you have Exotic Level 10 weapons that drop from bosses in newbie zones). Make the scale of drops for all levels much greater.

GW2 scaled zones are one of its best features. Instead of reducing the size of a game to 10% of it’s zones and having 90% dead content or empty leveling zones it keeps every area valid. The entire line of thought about boss drops in low level zones is also nice on paper, but when facing reality just does not get used since people skip this kind of content.

Sanghed.2318:

Instead, the leveling process should be a long, drawn out experience that is rewarding in itself. Users should work hard to get from level to level, but each level should have great things available. With the current system, most people just can’t wait to buy the best possible blue/green gear for their current level and move on. With a different approach, we could have valuable items at all range of levels, 1-80, instead of the everything just falling into level 80 equipment.

Level process does not equal endgame. In school this analysis/suggestion would get answered by your teacher with: Failed to address the issue. Sit down you get 0 points.

Second, you are in luck. There is an ambudance of games which provide such an experience. Aion, BnS, Black Desert Online. Economically and from a market share perspective it makes no sense for Arenanet to change GW2 in such a way that they would have to compete with those titles.

Sanghed.2318:

With a rescaling of this proportion, I think it would vastly improve the GW2 experience. The game feels misguided in its current state. I played GW1 since 2005 and I’ve been hoping GW2 would get better as it goes along… it seems that the updates just make it worse. Every change is meant to water the game down for new players and provide just enough sustaining users so arena.net can pay the electric bill next month.

You mention GW1 but offer suggestions which are in complete contrast to what GW1 offered. The leveling curve in GW1 was way shorter and flat. The itemisation faster and cheaper to reach cap stats.

You are correct though. It seems GW2 is not to your liking. The solution you ask for though makes no sense. Move on and play some of the games which already offer the type of pve content you want. Then either stick with them or come back to GW2 once you’ve burned yourself out on grind. For you it’s a win-win.

SkyShroud.2865:

Most mmorpg end game revolve around pvp and why is that so? Because pvping is the most self-sustain design ever. Take for example, counter strike, team fortress, dota, all of those games are pvping in a sense where players fight each other.

You want a pve end game? It doesn’t exist in a non-sandbox game.

I disagree. Yes pvp endgame is the easiest to design and when properly implemented will sustain players with a minimum of extras. But claiming most MMO endgame were pvp is plain out false.

The most successful pvp games are niche or have a very big pve player population along side the pvp. Many sole pvp focused MMOs have died over the years. In general the pve crowd in MMOs is bigger by a factor of 10 (look at Eve Online where over 90% of the playerbase never leaves high sec).

Agemnon.4608:

snip

Not sure if I should laugh or cry. Next time when comparing games try to at least stick to the same genre, or playerbase, or same gaming system (yes Overwatch is also available to PC players but is designed for PC and consols).

The comparison of Overwatch to GW2 is beyond apples and oranges. It’s closer to comparing a toaster to a bowl of salad. They are both useful to have, share absolutely no similarities and one can do without if need be or depending on personal taste/diet.

BunjiKugashira.9754:

SkyShroud.2865:

You need to google what sandbox mmorpg is, to put it in really simple terms, players generated contents.

I did. All so called sandbox mmorpgs that I found have open world grieving aka PK. All attempts at defining the genre stated a lot of stuff that can also be found in a themepark mmorpg plus the open world grieving. Depending on the definition even with full player looting. Since all these attempts at defining the genre are from fansites though and there doesn’t seem to be an official definition, I wanted to know what you specifically meant by using the term.

Sandbox MMORPG design, in simple terms is also known as players generated contents. I believe what you googled is “Sandbox” itself which can means openworld design.

In sandbox design, players generated contents can be like building houses, building cities, farming, leaving persistent changes to the world, players’ request (something like players generated quests) and so on. Depending on the type of game, it can be even more. Everquest Next is supposedly the more well-known sandbox mmorpg in the making, though I am unsure how much sandbox elements it will provide.

Full players looting or players drop are not considered sandbox but more like hardcore pvp game which can be dated back to the early 2000s or late 1990s. Nowadays, is hard to find new mmorpg permitting that any more.

lothefallen.7081:

GW2 lacks incentive for players at endgame, but not for any of the reasons you’ve mentioned. The level-scaling is more of a structural, design necessity than a tack-on. You see, it makes the gameplay experience consistent throughout regardless of level, which makes it easier for high level players to integrate into lower-level maps, do events, and essentially create this “living world” vibe that Anet has worked to create.

The real issues with GW2 endgame:

-Lack of any semblance of role structure so PvE combat boils down to stack and zerg.
-Elite specialization bloats options without actually adding any depth to combat.
-Limited weapon skills and pigeon-holed-best trait builds means nearly 0 variety.
-There is a gear treadmill, but the main content of the game doesn’t necessitate it.
-Gearing up alts with legendary / ascended gear is not very feasible = low replay-ability.
-Outside of WvW, engaging group (10+) content BARELY exists and the low depth of the combat system due to lack of defined roles does not support the gameplay, making the experience very cheap and not very fulfilling.
-A lot of gear, items, and development time is put into the cash shop rather than real endgame content. The mastery system is one of the biggest jokes I have ever seen in an MMO game.

*-Endgame content is basically grinding for aesthetics in what essentially boils down to a very pretty, but vapid gameplay experience. *

Problem is that they even abandoned that part when they decided to bring out no
more new armor sets 2 years ago and instead only bring out boring outfits.

There’s probably an MMO already out there somewhere that works as OP is describing, he should go play that.

A perspective from a returning player – for what it’s worth:

I left GW2 right after Black Desert Online (BDO) beta was released and never looked back. BDO was the “new” MMO with amazing graphics, a real combat system, extensive character creation, etc, etc.

In truth, the game’s positives are overshadowed by the ever-persistent negatives of no real end game, and endless grinding.

GW2, while has problems, is so much better than most other games out there because there really is a TON to do. As a PvP player, I can’t tell you how many hours I’ve spent on theory-crafting some new build idea for my character. None of this can be done in other MMOs to the extent you can in GW2.

The grass is always greener on the other side until you get there and quickly notice, there isn’t any grass.

None of the suggestions here are practical to implement on a game that already exists.

What these are are suggestions for GW3, not GW2. Not only that, but they alienate the fan base of GW2 (sortof like GW2 did with GW1’s fan base).

LOL this thread.

The guy comparing Overwatch to GW2 is either 12 or high on something. They are totally different games and genres. If you want to compare overwatch to something then compare it to Smite/any random FPS moba or LoL/Dota2/any random rts moba or team fortress2/any FPS team based arena shooter. Sure GW2 might be able to take some ideas from those games and make SPVP better but come on, GW2 does not equal SPVP. It is such a small part of GW2 most people don’t even mention it when describing the game.

As for the OP, I agree we need more to do at end game. I ABSOLUTELY DISAGREE WITH ADDING MORE GRIND. Especially in mid level areas. Dragging out the grind to get to end game does not add end game, it just makes it a chore to get there.

Lightsbane.9012:

Silas Eorth.7348:

Agemnon.4608:

GW2 needs to get rid of scaled zones.

I say if you’re considering level scaling then just don’t have levels at all since they then serve no good purpose. Instead everything should scale up to 80 but have its level hidden leaving crafting tiers for rarities and stat sets instead of levels. The entire game needs a reboot from the ground up if it’s going to be competitive against today’s top offerings.

For $60 what can a customer have-

Overwatch:

~ snip ~

Guild Wars 2:

~ snip ~

Sound like just a PvP only comparison. What I want to know is how Overwatch’s PvE is better than GW2. I’m just gonna make myself some popcorn and wait on your keen observations and well-thought-out response.

No, no… No rush, I’ve got time. Please enlighten me as to what I, a non-PvPer, am missing….

diablo 3’s pve is more entertaining than gw2’s, what’s your point?

Nobody was talking about Diablo 3….. this was a discussion about Overwatch vs. GW2. Now, begone Felecia.

Silas Eorth.7348:

Agemnon.4608:

GW2 needs to get rid of scaled zones.

I say if you’re considering level scaling then just don’t have levels at all since they then serve no good purpose. Instead everything should scale up to 80 but have its level hidden leaving crafting tiers for rarities and stat sets instead of levels. The entire game needs a reboot from the ground up if it’s going to be competitive against today’s top offerings.

For $60 what can a customer have-

Overwatch:

~ snip ~

Guild Wars 2:

~ snip ~

Sound like just a PvP only comparison. What I want to know is how Overwatch’s PvE is better than GW2. I’m just gonna make myself some popcorn and wait on your keen observations and well-thought-out response.

No, no… No rush, I’ve got time. Please enlighten me as to what I, a non-PvPer, am missing….

Overwatch has practice vs. the AI which is PvE.

But it has “excellent framerate” and excessive sexualising of Tracer’s butt!!!
/s

No they don’t, Tracer has pants on the entire time she’s on screen unless there’s a thong outfit for her I don’t know about. Besides, Widow actually has a sexualized can and is a cute character ^_^ Tracer and Widow’s poses were just fine before people who clearly aren’t the target demographic started complaining. Every minor thing gets criticized. This video deconstructs very well in a funny manner the Tracer controversy:

About the framerates; I’m getting up to 70 fps at 4k so they’re great. In Guild Wars 2 in zergs (WvW or PvE) the framerate can dip quite a bit and the aging engine shows. The stutters in places, poor camera physics and control, (can only zoom in little at a time and it goes from medium distance to first person view, I need to use objects with collision detection behind my character to get a proper selfie), repetitive grind, and other features mean Guild Wars 2 can see lots of improvement at a basic level.

Sanghed.2318:

The problem: GW2’s end game is lackluster at best and really provides no meaningful gameplay.

Why? The whole premise of the leveling system is flawed.

GW2 needs to get rid of scaled zones. It was a nice idea, but it is a terrible implementation. The zones should not scale users to the zones level. The rewards from monster drops (especially world boss tour drops) should be tweaked so that they drop zone-level appropriate items. With an emphasis on hero level to zone matching, the drops could be much more rewarding (i.e.: you have Exotic Level 10 weapons that drop from bosses in newbie zones). Make the scale of drops for all levels much greater.

Exotic lv10 weapons would just be pure power creep.

Instead, the leveling process should be a long, drawn out experience that is rewarding in itself. Users should work hard to get from level to level, but each level should have great things available. With the current system, most people just can’t wait to buy the best possible blue/green gear for their current level and move on. With a different approach, we could have valuable items at all range of levels, 1-80, instead of the everything just falling into level 80 equipment.

You have no idea about what drops are valuable. Go do some research before you go writing posts like this.

With a rescaling of this proportion, I think it would vastly improve the GW2 experience. The game feels misguided in its current state. I played GW1 since 2005 and I’ve been hoping GW2 would get better as it goes along… it seems that the updates just make it worse. Every change is meant to water the game down for new players and provide just enough sustaining users so arena.net can pay the electric bill next month.

Max level in GW1 was 20. In prophecies you reach lv15 at around Lion’s Arch. You should be 20 or close by the time you reach the desert. For Factions and Nightfall you basically reach lv20 by the time you leave the starter island. Nightfall was a little slower. Hard mode is functionally equivalent to level scaling but at a higher difficulty setting(although that can be greatly reduced with consumables as well).

Why not just get rid of levels entirely? There’s no need to worry about proper scaling when everything is tuned to level 80 stats and abilities after all.

In theory leveling is supposed to be like training wheels. In practice I am not sure how well that actually works judging from the people who enter HoT without even knowing what control abilities are available for the class they are playing.

Agemnon.4608:

Silas Eorth.7348:

Agemnon.4608:

GW2 needs to get rid of scaled zones.

I say if you’re considering level scaling then just don’t have levels at all since they then serve no good purpose. Instead everything should scale up to 80 but have its level hidden leaving crafting tiers for rarities and stat sets instead of levels. The entire game needs a reboot from the ground up if it’s going to be competitive against today’s top offerings.

For $60 what can a customer have-

Overwatch:

~ snip ~

Guild Wars 2:

~ snip ~

Sound like just a PvP only comparison. What I want to know is how Overwatch’s PvE is better than GW2. I’m just gonna make myself some popcorn and wait on your keen observations and well-thought-out response.

No, no… No rush, I’ve got time. Please enlighten me as to what I, a non-PvPer, am missing….

Overwatch has practice vs. the AI which is PvE.

But it has “excellent framerate” and excessive sexualising of Tracer’s butt!!!
/s

No they don’t, Tracer has pants on the entire time she’s on screen unless there’s a thong outfit for her I don’t know about. Besides, Widow actually has a sexualized can and is a cute character Tracer and Widow’s poses were just fine before people who clearly aren’t the target demographic started complaining. Every minor thing gets criticized. This video deconstructs very well in a funny manner the Tracer controversy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ydii76-1l5w

About the framerates; I’m getting up to 70 fps at 4k so they’re great. In Guild Wars 2 in zergs (WvW or PvE) the framerate can dip quite a bit and the aging engine shows. The stutters in places, poor camera physics and control, (can only zoom in little at a time and it goes from medium distance to first person view, I need to use objects with collision detection behind my character to get a proper selfie), repetitive grind, and other features mean Guild Wars 2 can see lots of improvement at a basic level.

You sir need to read up on what bottlenecks exist in performance in computer games..

Suffice to say that comparing an MMO with hundreds of players which need to get managed by server and client is vastly different than a shooter with a maximum of 12 players. No matter how good the engine of the MMO is, this is not even an uphill battle. The camera first person feature can get deactivated in the general options but shows just how familiar you’ve made yourself with your games configuration.

Not even going to comment on the practice AI vs Pve. Your just an obious troll, every one can see it.

“Users should work hard to get from level to level” NO TY,i hate leveling experience and wait for an MMORPG that will finally get read of this boring and rushing experience.Gameplay should be about doing what you want and not what are you forced to do.I don’t want to level slow just to be able to get to something FUN later.
I think that Gw2 have fine endgame,they just need to add more content to it and make this experience more approaching to solo players.Lesser grinding and lesser need to depend from other people.That is all

Been playing GW2 since Beta over 3 years ago. I have not run out of things to do and therefore have not reached the “end” of the game. If I did reach the “end” then I would no longer log on because the game would be over then. Since it is not over and still going and they are still adding stuff then, for me, there is no “end” yet.

“Instead, the leveling process should be a long, drawn out experience that is rewarding in itself. Users should work hard to get from level to level, but each level should have great things available. With the current system, most people just can’t wait to buy the best possible blue/green gear for their current level and move on. With a different approach, we could have valuable items at all range of levels, 1-80, instead of the everything just falling into level 80 equipment.”

I do sort of agree. I really don’t see the point of having to go from 1 – 80. It is, at best, an annoyance since 80 really is when you start playing the game. I guess in a sense the problem could be defined as the “end game” being the “whole game” really; this is esp. true for PvE.

lothefallen.7081:

GW2 lacks incentive for players at endgame, but not for any of the reasons you’ve mentioned. The level-scaling is more of a structural, design necessity than a tack-on. You see, it makes the gameplay experience consistent throughout regardless of level, which makes it easier for high level players to integrate into lower-level maps, do events, and essentially create this “living world” vibe that Anet has worked to create.

The real issues with GW2 endgame:

-Lack of any semblance of role structure so PvE combat boils down to stack and zerg.
-Elite specialization bloats options without actually adding any depth to combat.
-Limited weapon skills and pigeon-holed-best trait builds means nearly 0 variety.
-There is a gear treadmill, but the main content of the game doesn’t necessitate it.
-Gearing up alts with legendary / ascended gear is not very feasible = low replay-ability.
-Outside of WvW, engaging group (10+) content BARELY exists and the low depth of the combat system due to lack of defined roles does not support the gameplay, making the experience very cheap and not very fulfilling.
-A lot of gear, items, and development time is put into the cash shop rather than real endgame content. The mastery system is one of the biggest jokes I have ever seen in an MMO game.
-Endgame content is basically grinding for aesthetics in what essentially boils down to a very pretty, but vapid gameplay experience.

This for me is a very good answer, i agree.

Agemnon.4608:

Why not just get rid of levels entirely? There’s no need to worry about proper scaling when everything is tuned to level 80 stats and abilities after all.

This was always my hope and I still feel that one day it will be done. I would favor a game sans power creep altogether, just horizontal progression well done. A longish tutorial where you are introduced to your character, the story, and the character abilities and then you are loosed onto your adventure with max level gear. Other gear sets (stat-wise) would be easy to acquire for different builds. I was hoping GW2 would realize more of this than it has.

The idea of simply prolonging leveling solves nothing in my opinion. And, it actually diminishes possibilities for an actual end-game.