Guild Wars 2

since Anet has no desire to elevate the Mob AI above hp bag with one type of attack, and there is one role in the meta the big DPS ( it can be role with perks like DPS with reflects, or DPS with boons, but it basically one role)

and since i really don’t want to tell people how the should play, if the want to play "call of warfare 7 " in tyria , then who am i to tell them not to?

so we left with support and control undesirable builds, with undesirable stat allocations, how to make them viable?

1- new grand-master trait for all classes "woe of attrition " in the condition tree: for each second of CC (chill, cripple, immobilize) the target receives stack-able vulnerability.
for example if you cast 5 sec chill on mob, on first second it will get 1% vulnerability, on the next it will get 2% vuln, etkittenil 5% invulnerability on the last second of the chill.
this will allow low DPS high CC groups to reach 25% vulnerability quite fast increasing overall group DPS.

2- sigil of righteousness: each time you heal a friend (any type of heal, virtue of resolve, soothing mist, healing skill, heal from weapon, and heal blast, but not regeneration boon) there is a healing power/100 % chance that the receiver of the heal will get 1 stack of might ( no CD)
this will allow groups who are healing oriented to reach high amount of might stacks for all the group.

3- sigil of holy smiting: each time you heal a friend (any type of heal, virtue of resolve, soothing mist, healing skill, heal from weapon, and heal blast, but not regeneration boon) there is a healing power/100% chance that the receiver of the heal will get 3 seconds of fury
(no CD)
this will allow groups who are healing oriented to reach high coverage of fury for all the group.

4- GM trait in toughness tree: “inner barricade” your toughness (not armor! just the toughness rating) also increase the retaliation boon damage.

5- GM trait in toughness tree: “True footed” when you are under the effect of stability your hit-box is not passable, collision detection activated and nobody can pass through you.

6- GM trait in condition damage tree: “fury of pestilence” when your damaging condition reach 25 stacks, you instantly clear the stack in an instant damage equals to the amount of the conditions that was in the stack. ( the amount is: basic condition damage*25 not affected by the stat condition damage , so you will have option, to let the stacks tick or finish them for lower damage, but you will be able to continue to apply the stacks)

your suggestions are welcomed

The thing is simple. Either your build does enough damage or not.

And if you do enough damage with a healing build then it wouldn’t be very fair for builds without that healing. Not to mention how it would make a ridiculously easy game even more easier.

I suggest the addition of “Sigil of Facepalm” for the mobs. When the group is full of those incredibly bad builds, the boss is so busy facepalming that it loses 50% of its defense.

I disagree.
To achieve build diversity they should simply BUFF skills and NERF traits.

Trait should be the small difference, pushing a playstile…
Instead today many traits play by themselves and promote spammy builds.

The opposite they did since now. (infact we see a spam of few skills everywhere…. Even ele with 20, in many times uses 2-3 or fixed rotations…..).

There is no excuse for building badly, there are loads of guides out there and gear is cheap. With the upcoming trait swap out system it is also clear that Anet thinks you should be building for specific content as well.

If you just want to “muh heal spam” it up, then go for it. You can complete the pve content and your bunker builds are much valued in wvw/spvp, but don’t expect to be close to pve meta build groups who actually bother to tailor their builds for that specific content.

There is no reason at all why terribad builds and lolPVT should be anywhere near the meta.

Agree with Byron. Reign in on those runaway damage modifiers. Reduce the damage delta between a full damage build and a support/versatile build. Not remove, just reduce. Do the same for passive survivability.

Still, without a change in NPC combat behaviour, Wethospu is right. If NPCs don’t require more than beating a certain damage threshold to stomp them, why should anyone bother to learn anything else?

Fenrir.3609:

There is no reason at all why terribad builds and lolPVT should be anywhere near the meta.

That’s the point. If the meta wasn’t just pure damage, those builds wouldn’t have to be terribad.

That’s the point. If the meta wasn’t just pure damage, those builds wouldn’t have to be terribad.

If you want to change the meta, then you overhaul the combat mechanics and AI, you do not try and nerf dps or buff the damage of loltanks. Can you see them totally overhauling all the mechanics? I can’t.

And again, there is just no real excuse for building badly and then complaining about suboptimal efficiency. If people are too lazy to build for and adapt to the content they are doing, then they shouldn’t be anywhere near the meta.

Naqaj.6219:

That’s the point. If the meta wasn’t just pure damage, those builds wouldn’t have to be terribad.

Except that meta isn’t pure damage. It’s as much damage as you can pack with enough support and utility which is exactly the same as what you can observe in other typical mmos.

People just wants to deal more damage than they currently do while running faceroll builds that cannot even die. How much sense does it make?

There’s no ‘weak build’.

But if you’re referring to traits, yes, some are much better than others and they need to be buffed or remade.

CptAurellian.9537:

I suggest the addition of “Sigil of Facepalm” for the mobs. When the group is full of those incredibly bad builds, the boss is so busy facepalming that it loses 50% of its defense.

while this is an amusing comment, and if implemented will probably help….

why do we have all those trait trees and armors if they are not usable in PVE?
we should remove half of the trees and leave only three types of armor zerkers, knight and assassin.

What the point of having builds if only 1 is “good”?
Either remove builds and put 2-3 templates for every profession or just make build have a sense…

Removing the zerker meta, or really the ’How can I do the most damage possible" meta would require re tooling every single encounter in the game, and changing the core class mechanics.

if you have been playing for the past… year? you would know the don’t have the resources to even begin the attempt that.

Your ideas seem to idolize the trinity which this game is not about. There is nothing wrong with zerker, its the mechanics of the enemies that need to be worked on.

Zepidel.5349:

Removing the zerker meta, or really the ’How can I do the most damage possible" meta would require re tooling every single encounter in the game, and changing the core class mechanics.

if you have been playing for the past… year? you would know the don’t have the resources to even begin the attempt that.

I too agree the devs don’t have the resources to take on such a feat.

Therefore the meta won’t change.

The problem is that players just fails and die even in PVT gear. Thats a learn to play issue and lack of research in your own class.
Fun fact, they want fast killing times as zerkers does.
Did i miss something?

1. If you want to breeze trough content, choose zerkers and likemindend people.
2. If you want to take it slowly and survive everything, choose non-zerker gear and likeminded people.

Lalangamena.3694:

why do we have all those trait trees and armors if they are not usable in PVE?

They are useable in PVE, what we see on the forums is some people crying that they are not optimal. Which is odd.

LordByron.8369:

What the point of having builds if only 1 is “good”?
Either remove builds and put 2-3 templates for every profession or just make build have a sense…

For numerous reasons which include the fact that not everyone cares about being the “meta” and are quite happy to do the content on non optimal builds (as opposed to the people who cry and moan that their condibunker or “play how I want” build isn’t top dog for every single bit of content they step into.

People seem to be looking at it very narrow mindedly.

The thing is… besides dodge, the other big mitigators of damage are abilities like wall of reflection, veil, stealth, nullfield, shadow refuge etc… All of these abilities can be used in full zerk or full defensive gear, and they all work the SAME no matter what gear or spec.

Guardians / Mesmers are the defacto “support” classes, but that doesn’t mean they need to wear +healing gear or defensive gear. Because they are just as effective supports in full zerk. The difference is they can do 2-3x more dps in zerk gear… so why not?

In the current meta passive mitigation from hp or toughness is nothing but a crutch for non skilled players to use, as they become better (git gud) they move onto gear that offers more dps with less passive mitigation as they have become better at using active mitigation to completely negate damage that would otherwise kill them. PvP of course being a slightly different story.

Skills would have to be completely reworked to change the meta, as well as stats and traits.

For instance takes wall of reflection for gaurdian, right now nothing modifies it.

However if we wanted to change the meta… We could allow +Healing to effect it in some way, for instance whenever it reflects a projectiles nearby allies are healing for a percentage of the projectile damage based on healing power. In a zerk setup +power would effect the reflection damage to enemies. BUT these would be meaningful increases, meaning in a zerk setup the healing would be almost nothing, and the damage reflection in a healing setup would be nothing as well.

That’s just 1 half kitten idea for a single skill, you need to rework every skill that’s functions like that to interact differently with stats and specs.

I wish we had had so many opinions back in gw1.

haviz.1340:

I wish we had had so many opinions back in gw1.

What opinions? There is no reason to ever use anything besides zerk unless you are bad at the game.

You don’t see a problem with that?

As people have said, the meta is zerker BECAUSE the mobs promotes zerker. The mobs themself zerk mindlessly in group and lets your Hundred Blades warrior just deal all the damage without the need of a stun or immobilize, nor do they remove it.

Mobs needs to be overhauled, get better AI and overall use more skills players do. Condition removal, break stun, dodge, finishers and generally a lot more fast paced combat instead of slow 1 hit attacks that gets you to 50% HP even with 2000 toughness.

GW2 is balanced around sPvP, that means the mobs needs to act more like players. The first problem is that they don’t work in groups, they stack and don’t dodge. These needs to be addressed to make them more dynamic and unpredictable, just like players.

Zepidel.5349:

For instance takes wall of reflection for gaurdian, right now nothing modifies it.

I don’t know actually if it’s the case with WoR too, but for instance mesmers Feedback is affected both by crit chance, crit damage and damage modifiers. Guess what? Zerker is still superior, BUT the main reason you want to use any projectile defense, is to protect yourself or your team. Reflecting it is just an added bonus.

There are already good and usable builds for PvE.
Warrior and Ranger for offensive buffs.
Guardian and Mesmer for reflect and support.
Thief is a CC machine and stealth bot.
Ele provide offensive boons again along with their high dps.

Sadly Engi has a LOT of stuff in their pocket, but it’s very unlikely that their utility isn’t already covered by other team mates and they are on the low end of the spectrum in dps.
Necromancers provide very minor utility, that can be done with multiple classes, often even better with less effort.

Tools are given, design better encounters.

edit:

As people have said, the meta is zerker BECAUSE the mobs promotes zerker. The mobs themself zerk mindlessly in group and lets your Hundred Blades warrior just deal all the damage without the need of a stun or immobilize, nor do they remove it.

Move out from CoFp1 and Queensdale champ train and you will see thats not true.

Tyragon.2496:

Mobs needs to be overhauled, get better AI and overall use more skills players do. Condition removal, break stun, dodge, finishers and generally a lot more fast paced combat instead of slow 1 hit attacks that gets you to 50% HP even with 2000 toughness.

Overhauling mobs wont fix anything, everything you could add to increase difficulty is countered by using abilities or dodge, again useable to their fullest potential (in most cases) in full zerk.

You need to overhaul mobs AND stats AND traits AND skills AND how they all function together.

Dalanor.5387:

Zepidel.5349:

For instance takes wall of reflection for gaurdian, right now nothing modifies it.

I don’t know actually if it’s the case with WoR too, but for instance mesmers Feedback is affected both by crit chance, crit damage and damage modifiers. Guess what? Zerker is still superior, BUT the main reason you want to use any projectile defense, is to protect yourself or your team. Reflecting it is just an added bonus.

There are already good and usable builds for PvE.
Warrior and Ranger for offensive buffs.
Guardian and Mesmer for reflect and support.
Thief is a CC machine and stealth bot.
Ele provide offensive boons again along with their high dps.

Sadly Engi has a LOT of stuff in their pocket, but it’s very unlikely that their utility isn’t already covered by other team mates and they are on the low end of the spectrum in dps.
Necromancers provide very minor utility, that can be done with multiple classes, often even better with less effort.

Tools are given, design better encounters.

edit:

As people have said, the meta is zerker BECAUSE the mobs promotes zerker. The mobs themself zerk mindlessly in group and lets your Hundred Blades warrior just deal all the damage without the need of a stun or immobilize, nor do they remove it.

Move out from CoFp1 and Queensdale champ train and you will see thats not true.

You cant design better encounters with the current skill/trait/stat system. The best group makeup for challenging content is always going to be 1 ele 2 war 1 guard 1 mes all running full zerker (might stacking / banners / aegis and reflect / Timewarp condition removal and reflect)

Zepidel.5349:

You cant design better encounters with the current skill/trait/stat system.

Honestly, that’s not true again.

The best group makeup for challenging content is always going to be 1 ele 2 war 1 guard 1 mes all running full zerker (might stacking / banners / aegis and reflect / Timewarp condition removal and reflect)

Neither this.

Dalanor.5387:

Zepidel.5349:

You cant design better encounters with the current skill/trait/stat system.

Honestly, that’s not true again.

The best group makeup for challenging content is always going to be 1 ele 2 war 1 guard 1 mes all running full zerker (might stacking / banners / aegis and reflect / Timewarp condition removal and reflect)

Neither this.

why not? that group comp has everything you would ever need, and the highest dps output to boot.

And encounters aren’t going to get much harder than they are now, flame shaman and the aetherblade boss fract are about as “hard” as content will ever get unless stats/traits/skill are reworked.

You can run other things. People cry out that the game is so easy but then blame zerker builds for being the problem. Which one is it? If it’s both then it doesn’t matter. Run what you want because it’s easy. People are just mad that bringing a lot of damage and being survivable is in the game. People want that old school MMO trade off where running a high damage build meant having to play flawlessly. If that is the case then I understand your meaning and agree. Warrior damage output combined with its survivability is an issue when compared to what other classes have to do to get that kind of damage output. The survivability is no where near the Warriors at that point.

Zepidel.5349:

why not? that group comp has everything you would ever need[…]

Nope.

and the highest dps output to boot.

Nope.

And encounters aren’t going to get much harder than they are now, flame shaman and the aetherblade boss fract are about as “hard” as content will ever get unless stats/traits/skill are reworked.

And the average player still fails it on higher levels too (just sayin, but that’s another topic why), or just look what happened in the past few LS releases.
Actually i kinda like those encounters, except the camera issue at the shaman. Detailed, more mechanics outside auto attacks and they are fairly lethal.

Dalanor.5387:

Zepidel.5349:

You cant design better encounters with the current skill/trait/stat system.

Honestly, that’s not true again.

The best group makeup for challenging content is always going to be 1 ele 2 war 1 guard 1 mes all running full zerker (might stacking / banners / aegis and reflect / Timewarp condition removal and reflect)

Neither this.

I agree that both these statements are completely untrue.

1 Ele, 2 Warr, 1 Guardian and 1 Mesmer is not even a good group to begin with. There is not even a consensus on a best composition for a specific dungeon path, so suggest that there is a best composition for everything is not only bold, but totally untrue. Why a guardian in CoF if you talk about best composition? That make no sense.

You keep just saying “nope” without anything to back it up, at least try man.

And I’ve been pugging fractals for a very long time, at least 200 runs with pugs, only about 5 maybe runs have failed. I don’t think your average player has any problems with high level fracts assuming they have proper AR.

Thaddeus.4891:

Dalanor.5387:

Zepidel.5349:

You cant design better encounters with the current skill/trait/stat system.

Honestly, that’s not true again.

The best group makeup for challenging content is always going to be 1 ele 2 war 1 guard 1 mes all running full zerker (might stacking / banners / aegis and reflect / Timewarp condition removal and reflect)

Neither this.

I agree that both these statements are completely untrue.

1 Ele, 2 Warr, 1 Guardian and 1 Mesmer is not even a good group to begin with. There is not even a consensus on a best composition for a specific dungeon path, so suggest that there is a best composition for everything is not only bold, but totally untrue. Why a guardian in CoF if you talk about best composition? That make no sense.

if you bothered to read, I said “challenging” content. But considering most posts ITT you are par for the course in reading comprehension.

Zepidel.5349:

You keep just saying “nope” without anything to back it up, at least try man.

And I’ve been pugging fractals for a very long time, at least 200 runs with pugs, only about 5 maybe runs have failed. I don’t think your average player has any problems with high level fracts assuming they have proper AR.

Thaddeus.4891:

Dalanor.5387:

Zepidel.5349:

You cant design better encounters with the current skill/trait/stat system.

Honestly, that’s not true again.

The best group makeup for challenging content is always going to be 1 ele 2 war 1 guard 1 mes all running full zerker (might stacking / banners / aegis and reflect / Timewarp condition removal and reflect)

Neither this.

I agree that both these statements are completely untrue.

1 Ele, 2 Warr, 1 Guardian and 1 Mesmer is not even a good group to begin with. There is not even a consensus on a best composition for a specific dungeon path, so suggest that there is a best composition for everything is not only bold, but totally untrue. Why a guardian in CoF if you talk about best composition? That make no sense.

if you bothered to read, I said “challenging” content. But considering most posts ITT you are par for the course in reading comprehension.

Let’s start insulting, finally! That took a long long time mate.

It’s simply untrue, that’s why. Educate yourself.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ranger
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Thief

Than you are lucky. I often had groups, that dodges 0, i mean zero arrow from shaman, but with proper AR they didn’t die instantly.

Define challanging please, i’m curious.

Lalangamena.3694:

CptAurellian.9537:

I suggest the addition of “Sigil of Facepalm” for the mobs. When the group is full of those incredibly bad builds, the boss is so busy facepalming that it loses 50% of its defense.

while this is an amusing comment, and if implemented will probably help….

Well, I should have added the second part: After 10 seconds, the boss gets really annoyed, increasing its damage by 200 % and attack frequency by 100 %.

Why are you linking to the wiki?

Challenging content means PvE encounters in the game that require you to play your best, and punishes you and your group for mistakes. Makes you milk every ounce of efficency out of your build (no fights do this). and for the first two things mentioned that’s not a lot of encounters in the game.

Flame shaman is up there, because if you do die from mistakes made by you or someone in your group not fufilling their role, the frequency of the same player being hit by the arrows etc… is higher making the encounter harder.

Same for aetherblade fractal, dieing in the cannon stage puts a huge strain on your party.

CptAurellian.9537:

Lalangamena.3694:

CptAurellian.9537:

I suggest the addition of “Sigil of Facepalm” for the mobs. When the group is full of those incredibly bad builds, the boss is so busy facepalming that it loses 50% of its defense.

while this is an amusing comment, and if implemented will probably help….

Well, I should have added the second part: After 10 seconds, the boss gets really annoyed, increasing its damage by 200 % and attack frequency by 100 %.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frenzy_%28NPC_effect%29

That would be lovely. =3

Zepidel.5349:

Why are you linking to the wiki?

Challenging content means PvE encounters in the game that require you to play your best, and punishes you and your group for mistakes. Makes you milk every ounce of efficency out of your build (no fights do this). and for the first two things mentioned that’s not a lot of encounters in the game.

Flame shaman is up there, because if you do die from mistakes made by you or someone in your group not fufilling their role, the frequency of the same player being hit by the arrows etc… is higher making the encounter harder.

Same for aetherblade fractal, dieing in the cannon stage puts a huge strain on your party.

To learn about classes, since you have imperfect knowledge about them.
Your “awesome” team composition lacks stealth for example, which makes thieves required in a few places.
Rangers have unique damage buffs like Spotter and Frost spiritt, thus they are required for max dps. 1 warrior and 1 ranger max out possible unique buff, meanwhile elementalists can cap might and fury. How many guardians and mesmers you see here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBUZ3MbjEHg

Well Liadri supposed to be that and if i remember correctly even most of Anet inhouse testers couldn’t beat it, while every second person was able to kill her. -shrugs-

That’s true, but thats the case with a lot of encounter, isn’kitten

Dalanor.5387:

Zepidel.5349:

Why are you linking to the wiki?

Challenging content means PvE encounters in the game that require you to play your best, and punishes you and your group for mistakes. Makes you milk every ounce of efficency out of your build (no fights do this). and for the first two things mentioned that’s not a lot of encounters in the game.

Flame shaman is up there, because if you do die from mistakes made by you or someone in your group not fufilling their role, the frequency of the same player being hit by the arrows etc… is higher making the encounter harder.

Same for aetherblade fractal, dieing in the cannon stage puts a huge strain on your party.

To learn about classes, since you have imperfect knowledge about them.
Your “awesome” team composition lacks stealth for example, which makes thieves required in a few places.
Rangers have unique damage buffs like Spotter and Frost spiritt, thus they are required for max dps. 1 warrior and 1 ranger max out possible unique buff, meanwhile elementalists can cap might and fury. How many guardians and mesmers you see here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBUZ3MbjEHg

Well Liadri supposed to be that and if i remember correctly even most of Anet inhouse testers couldn’t beat it, while every second person was able to kill her. -shrugs-

That’s true, but thats the case with a lot of encounter, isn’kitten

when was lupi ever considered hard? he’s soloable by anyone willing to spend the time learning the fight.

Liadri was another fun encounter I wish they had more of.

I’ll say that my group comp isn’t the best, I did forget about rangers, but thats offtopic to the thread anyways, I still say you cant make more challenging content without reworking class mechanics. Just changing encounters wont fix anything about the broken meta.

We talk about max dps, don’t get excuses everytime.

Glad you agree.

Not that off-topic, since Rangers are amongst less desired classes, meanwhile they are actually useful. Last time i had a ranger on the Tar boss in Arah P1. Maaan, i love Entangle.
Another good encounter we had in the past months is Clockheart. Seriously, thats a great encounter. More or less Foreman Spur is good too, but that fight really depends on your group skill.

Zepidel.5349:

why not? that group comp has everything you would ever need, and the highest dps output to boot.

Ya that group bring pretty much everything you good need as skills and have a decent dps. But not the highest dps that is so not true.

Guardian and Mesmer bring utilities at the expend of DPS.
Warrior DPS is good, but not the best, he mainly bring offensive buffs.
Thief and Ele are the best pure DPS of the game, but you only bring 1 Ele. What would be the best DPS composition? The more Ele and Thief you can, while sacrificing the less possible buffs. It would be a hard job to create the best possible composition possible. You would need to make sure that you max Might and fury (2 Ele and 1 Warrior can do that), have all banners and Empower (1 Warrior can do that), have 25 Stack of Vulnerability (a bit trickier and depend on the build of everybody).

When maxing the DPS of a group, its not a simple task and you’ll have several possible answer with not real 100% sure way to decide which one is better.

Yes it easy to forget about rangers since I remeber grouping with one… maybe once every 3 months or so. whilst they complain about how kitten their class is lol.

Zepidel.5349:

What opinions? There is no reason to ever use anything besides zerk unless you are bad at the game.

You don’t see a problem with that?

Opinions that every build and gear should be optimal. Wishful thinking, nothing more.

haviz.1340:

Zepidel.5349:

What opinions? There is no reason to ever use anything besides zerk unless you are bad at the game.

You don’t see a problem with that?

Opinions that every build and gear should be optimal. Wishful thinking, nothing more.

Multiplayer games are a competitive enviroment, optimal builds will always be looked at as necessary outside of roleplaying.

It’s worth noting that the current meta revolves around speedrunning dungeons. There’s nothing about the meta that makes it mandatory. Fact is, most of the playerbase does dungeons for the loot, and the more money they can make in the least amount of time, the better. That’s where our all-DPS Stacking Meta came from.

To clarify, there will never, ever be a time when non-speedrunning builds are accepted by the meta or the dungeon-grinding playerbase. It won’t happen. What is quickest is what is best, is the general idea, and no amount of patching or stat reworking is going to make a speedrunner say “Hey, maybe I do want to run with a mace/shield Guardian and a BearBow Ranger today”. As mentioned above, MMOs are a competetive environment, even in PvE, and the people who see it as a competition to get the best stuff the fastest aren’t going to put on brakes for the players who play for the fun of it.

Other build combinations, the “weaker” builds, are viable in a well-balanced group. All dungeons in the game can be completed with a well-balanced non-meta party who knows their class, skills, role, and gear. Mind that doesn’t mean a team of 5 support roles, that means an appropriate mix of different playtypes. But people have the idea that bosses should be felled in seconds, not minutes – played ‘as intended’ with build variety and mobility mechanics, bossfights take longer. Dungeons take longer. And the playerbase isn’t doing the dungeon for the fun. They want that money, fast, and anything that slows them down is seen as a plague on their playstyle.

I’d suggest finding likeminded players to run with, and developing a coordinated group. There’s a lot of players who do enjoy the dungeons and combat system for what it is, and you can form a coordinated group for that. Just understand it won’t be easy – it’s not like you can all run in and facesmack bosses with a bunch of hodge-podge builds and expect to win. Game is harder than most players think because the meta makes it easy. Playing non-meta will shatter that illusion, fast.

haviz.1340:

Naqaj.6219:

That’s the point. If the meta wasn’t just pure damage, those builds wouldn’t have to be terribad.

Except that meta isn’t pure damage. It’s as much damage as you can pack with enough support and utility which is exactly the same as what you can observe in other typical mmos.

People just wants to deal more damage than they currently do while running faceroll builds that cannot even die. How much sense does it make?

BUT THE META IS PURE DAMAGE. It’s more so how much might/vulnerability can you stack in the process of killing crap. Why else do warriors run FGJ, banners of strength/discipline, on your mark in dungeons? Or when soloing in open world signet of might and fury with FGJ or a stability skill? Hell I find myself being a lazy warrior in open world content with 5 signets and only ever using signet of rage for the 30 seconds of fury, might and swiftness and just autoing everything to death. Hell the only time I ever even use more than 3 skills on my warrior is when I’m in dungeons or soloing events/champs. Most of the time I don’t even dodge from trash mobs I just run through them and slap em 2/3 times and they fall over.

No matter how much passive defense you run the one hit KO’s still KO regardless of armor/hp (an ele in zerker gear getting 1 shot by the same thing that 1 shot a warrior in soldiers gear). The only thing that will make weak builds “closer” to the strong builds is to nerf the strong builds and buff the weak ones. They’re nerfing crit damage to help “bring other builds” up to zerker builds but anet has even said that berserker will still be the best damage even after that change. “These other builds” that are being spoke of are -

A- support based builds which aren’t meant to do damage but either buff/heal the party

or

B- condition based builds which are lack luster in group situations (because of minor traits that inflict conditions such as bleeding) and even when soloing it takes a while for them to get going compared to a zerker.

or

C- a “tank” based build to take a bunch of abuse. The problem here? Everyone has a dodge key. Use it and learn when to use it.

Speaking from a pve perspective solely.

Pure damage means you don’t care about anything but damage which is false.

Travis the Terrible.4739:

haviz.1340:

Naqaj.6219:

That’s the point. If the meta wasn’t just pure damage, those builds wouldn’t have to be terribad.

Except that meta isn’t pure damage. It’s as much damage as you can pack with enough support and utility which is exactly the same as what you can observe in other typical mmos.

People just wants to deal more damage than they currently do while running faceroll builds that cannot even die. How much sense does it make?

BUT THE META IS PURE DAMAGE. It’s more so how much might/vulnerability can you stack in the process of killing crap. Why else do warriors run FGJ, banners of strength/discipline, on your mark in dungeons? Or when soloing in open world signet of might and fury with FGJ or a stability skill? Hell I find myself being a lazy warrior in open world content with 5 signets and only ever using signet of rage for the 30 seconds of fury, might and swiftness and just autoing everything to death. Hell the only time I ever even use more than 3 skills on my warrior is when I’m in dungeons or soloing events/champs. Most of the time I don’t even dodge from trash mobs I just run through them and slap em 2/3 times and they fall over.

No matter how much passive defense you run the one hit KO’s still KO regardless of armor/hp (an ele in zerker gear getting 1 shot by the same thing that 1 shot a warrior in soldiers gear). The only thing that will make weak builds “closer” to the strong builds is to nerf the strong builds and buff the weak ones. They’re nerfing crit damage to help “bring other builds” up to zerker builds but anet has even said that berserker will still be the best damage even after that change. “These other builds” that are being spoke of are -

A- support based builds which aren’t meant to do damage but either buff/heal the party

or

B- condition based builds which are lack luster in group situations (because of minor traits that inflict conditions such as bleeding) and even when soloing it takes a while for them to get going compared to a zerker.

or

C- a “tank” based build to take a bunch of abuse. The problem here? Everyone has a dodge key. Use it and learn when to use it.

Speaking from a pve perspective solely.

Wow, so do you want a pve/dungeon which isn’t based on combat? Just full of puzzles?

Because as long as the main objective is to kill stuff, then yes, people will focus on damage.

There is a lot of misconceptions on this thread… I’ll have to address them:

#1: The meta is pure DPS. This isn’t true. Ultimately, in any game you play where there is some kind of “damage”, the goal is always trying to obtain the maximum amount of damage possible within certain constraints. That is, having just enough heals and durability to survive, and nothing extra. It is rare to find any circumstance in the game where players forgo all active defenses and just go for raw, stand-in-your-face damage.

Anets design was not that you sacrificed damage for utility, but that you sacrificed damage for durability. How tough you are is ultimately to be a preference.

#2: Passive defenses are useless. This also isn’t true. Passive defenses can be quite powerful, and even in small amounts they can contribute meaningfully to survival. So many of the One-Hit-KO attacks are just so only because players run around in glass cannon gear. Even running in Valkyrie or Knight gear will result in you taking substantially more damage.

The issue is that, as skill level increases, passive defenses become less meaningful. Since there is a very low amount of ambient, light damage coming from enemies, the majority of enemy damage can be blocked, dodged, or interrupted. In situations where this isn’t true, or for inexperienced players, passive defenses mean a whole lot.

#3: There are no builds. Again, this isn’t true. The “zerker meta” is about just that: gear. Weapon choices, utility choices, and trait choices still have a meaningful impact on the build, and even denotes how that build will play out in the large run. Some builds are quite defensive and supportive, despite being in full glass cannon gear. For example, on my ele I have 2 builds: 30/20/0/0/20 staff DPS, and 0/30/0/20/20 dagger/fresh air support build. The difference being that one stacks a ton of AoE might and fury with a lot of AoE damage, while the other stacks AoE regen/protection and regularly pulses heals/cleanses and uses more support skills. Both can wear full zerker, but these builds barely resemble each other in both playstyle and overall team effect.

#4: Anet isn’t improving the AI. This also isn’t true. Scarlets minions are a fine example to the contrary, as they employ more ambient damage and more complex maneuvers than what most players are familiar with. Mobs in the rest of the game get updates on occasion, such as the risen mobs and various boss encounters in dungeons (most recent being HotW path 1 troll). The zerker meta issue is likely one of those issues that will simply fix itself over time.

#5: This is about bad players/good players, or smart players/dumb players. This, again, isn’t true. This is about respecting preferences of players. I, personally, like to run hybrid condi gear and non-pure DPS gear in PVE. The problem is that, with the way the game is currently designed, these builds don’t get to show their strength in the vast majority of PVE. So, I run pure zerker most of the time.

Maybe a better question is “how do we push the weak players closer to the better”? This zerker nerf is a start. 10%+ loss on DPS for many builds will making stacking the Spider Queen in AC, for example, that much tougher for non-meta groups and they might actually have to fight her in the open. Then they might see how simple the mechanics are and how easy the fight can be when you leave the comfy confines of the stairs. Even forcing players to survive a little longer by becoming aware of group conditions and/or buffs would be a win in many pug groups I have run with. There are too many fights that allow players not to get better because they can stack and survive long enough to beat a boss or a group without ever knowing what the enemies are actually doing. Fixing the AI might be the optimum solution, but in lieu of that I would say reducing damage to extend fights and then open up the trait system to allow constant tweaking might will force bad groups to get better and offer them a chance to do it (at least to some degree) at any time.

stachekiller.2591:

Maybe a better question is “how do we push the weak players closer to the better”? This zerker nerf is a start. 10%+ loss on DPS for many builds will making stacking the Spider Queen in AC, for example, that much tougher for non-meta groups and they might actually have to fight her in the open. Then they might see how simple the mechanics are and how easy the fight can be when you leave the comfy confines of the stairs. Even forcing players to survive a little longer by becoming aware of group conditions and/or buffs would be a win in many pug groups I have run with. There are too many fights that allow players not to get better because they can stack and survive long enough to beat a boss or a group without ever knowing what the enemies are actually doing. Fixing the AI might be the optimum solution, but in lieu of that I would say reducing damage to extend fights and then open up the trait system to allow constant tweaking might will force bad groups to get better and offer them a chance to do it (at least to some degree) at any time.

If only Spider Queen’s poison field didn’t down in 3 seconds of being hit.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

snip

Thanks for jumping in and save the day again hopefully! =)

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

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#4: Anet isn’t improving the AI. This also isn’t true. Scarlets minions are a fine example to the contrary, as they employ more ambient damage and more complex maneuvers than what most players are familiar with. Mobs in the rest of the game get updates on occasion, such as the risen mobs and various boss encounters in dungeons (most recent being HotW path 1 troll). The zerker meta issue is likely one of those issues that will simply fix itself over time.
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Do they have better AI or do they just have more meaningful skills? People seem to mix up these two quite often.

Can you say troll is working more intelligently than a common wolf when both of them are spamming skills on cooldown?