Guild Wars 2

With the release of the new blogpost detailing the work in the next few months, I was wondering if one of the devs could address the issue of the direct and condition dmg disparity. Btw, this is PvE only. What I mean by this is:

1) Bleeds cap at 25 resulting in a maximum cap of ~3k dmg/sec assuming about 120 dmg bleeds.
2) It’s a lot of work for 1 class alone to maintain a constant 25 stacks of bleed, so for argument’s sake, most condition dmg classes will NOT be doing 3k dmg/sec
3) Direct dmg (most notably warriors and mesmers) can do >5-6k dmg/sec with minimal effort. If you don’t believe, go check out Strife’s DPS calculation with an Axe warrior. 2.5-3k crits (with 100% crit) PER AUTOATTACK with the axe which hits like every 1/3 of a second.

Condition dmg specs need to do some very creative things (like Nemesis’ Hybrid Necro) to even come close to the dmg output of direct dmg specs. I am not advocating a nerf to direct dmg, but rather an adjustment to the condition dmg. Direct dmg gets scaling off of precision, power and crit dmg, while condition dmg scales off of only Condition dmg and condition duration. Bleeds, burns and poisons need a slightly improved condition dmg coefficient in addition to a slight raise to the bleed cap.

I agree-add to that that cond damage builds cant do any damage to some mobs (like the
ice elemental boss in the fractals) and that you can have a max of 1 person with cond damage in a party just makes it so much more pointless to use in pve.
This is a very serious issue because it makes a large number of builds (from the already very limited number of builds) unusable.

It’s been said many times here and I agree that work needs to be done in balancing condition and direct damage specs. There’s no reason the sustained damage or abilities that make a spec versatile should not be on par with direct damage. As I’ve said before, when I left my previous MMO for GW2, a DoT spec was topping the charts for sustained damage in raids. The damage is dealt differently it doesn’t have to be less in a sustained fight. Here’s hoping it’s on the radar for 2013.

Duke.4795:

Direct dmg (most notably warriors and mesmers) can do >5-6k dmg/sec with minimal effort

The failure in your argument is that you are talking about DPS as if all sources of damage were meant to have the same rate of damage per second. Just as a thief has higher burst damage than a guardian, which doesn’t mean the guardian can’t do more damage than the thief, just because condition damage doesn’t have higher DPS than using all 5 skills in a row doesn’t mean that condition damage isn’t a viable source of damage.

What needs to be balanced is how condition damage works as a source of sustained damage, when compared to the more burst-based direct damage. Trying to merely and simplistically increase the damage per second of condition damage is a bad idea.

Condition damage specs are different from Burst damage specs for a reason, even in PvE. It’s very easy to build survivable with Condition damage, not so much with burst. That’s the trade off.

All the more reason to make warriors…right?

Just have a rifle warrior which compensates for 95% of the condition builds out there (for other professions of course).

Don’t forget confusion, i want mah confusion to kill stuff and not just be purple spirals.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Don’t forget confusion, i want mah confusion to kill stuff and not just be purple spirals.

Confusion would be worthwhile if enemies didn’t have their current attack rate of once every 10 seconds (exaggeration but you get my point)

Erasculio.2914:

Duke.4795:

Condition dmg specs need to do some very creative things (like Nemesis’ Hybrid Necro) to even come close to the dmg output of direct dmg specs.

The failure in your argument is that you are talking about DPS as if all sources of damage were meant to have the same rate of damage per second. Just as a thief has higher burst damage than a guardian, which doesn’t mean the guardian can’t do more damage than the thief, just because condition damage doesn’t have higher DPS than using all 5 skills in a row doesn’t mean that condition damage isn’t a viable source of damage.

But that’s the thing, you would think that over a long fight, the dmg of bleeds/burns/poison would exceed that of direct dmg. However, I believe I make my point quite clear, that condition dmg does NOT win over a long period. Even if an Axe warrior does nothing but spam 1, he, alone will do more dmg than 25 stacks of bleed over any period of time. From my experience, DoT abilities (from WoW, Dota, etc.), usually have a higher overall dmg, but compensated by being spread over time compared to direct damaging abilities. In GW2, the DoTs don’t have higher overall dmg, yet are still spread over time, in addition to being capped.

Let’s say in the future, ANet does indeed fix the dmg of DoT to be on par w/direct dmg. The capping of the conditions will still prevent DoT from being effective. Allow me to give you an example. I bring 2 warriors + 1 bleed/burn ranger each with a respective DPS of 3k. That dmg will be superior than bringing 1 warrior, 1 bleed/burn engi, and 1 burn/bleed ranger since the bleeds are capped at 25 and the burns do NOT stack, meaning either the ranger’s or the engi’s burn is doing nothing.

What I’m arguing is that direct dmg does more burst and more sustained damage than condition dmg.

Duke.4795:

Erasculio.2914:

Duke.4795:

Condition dmg specs need to do some very creative things (like Nemesis’ Hybrid Necro) to even come close to the dmg output of direct dmg specs.

The failure in your argument is that you are talking about DPS as if all sources of damage were meant to have the same rate of damage per second. Just as a thief has higher burst damage than a guardian, which doesn’t mean the guardian can’t do more damage than the thief, just because condition damage doesn’t have higher DPS than using all 5 skills in a row doesn’t mean that condition damage isn’t a viable source of damage.

But that’s the thing, you would think that over a long fight, the dmg of bleeds/burns/poison would exceed that of direct dmg. However, I believe I make my point quite clear, that condition dmg does NOT win over a long period. Even if an Axe warrior does nothing but spam 1, he, alone will do more dmg than 25 stacks of bleed over any period of time. From my experience, DoT abilities (from WoW, Dota, etc.), usually have a higher overall dmg, but compensated by being spread over time compared to direct damaging abilities. In GW2, the DoTs don’t have higher overall dmg, yet are still spread over time, in addition to being capped.

Let’s say in the future, ANet does indeed fix the dmg of DoT to be on par w/direct dmg. The capping of the conditions will still prevent DoT from being effective. Allow me to give you an example. I bring 2 warriors + 1 bleed/burn ranger each with a respective DPS of 3k. That dmg will be superior than bringing 1 warrior, 1 bleed/burn engi, and 1 burn/bleed ranger since the bleeds are capped at 25 and the burns do NOT stack, meaning either the ranger’s or the engi’s burn is doing nothing.

What I’m arguing is that direct dmg does more burst and more sustained damage than condition dmg.

On paper you are correct, in a dungeon you are wrong. Every time that Glass cannon takes a smack in the face, they lose heal/utilities/dodges and damage on the target. If they take a few, they go down. You don’t have to worry about that as a Condition damage build, baring that most CD builds also offer decent group support over the glass cannon builds.

If the argument is about bringing multiple CD builds into one group, then yes you’d have a point. Otherwise no , you shouldn’t be comparing the two.

Smitten.3076:

Condition damage specs are different from Burst damage specs for a reason, even in PvE. It’s very easy to build survivable with Condition damage, not so much with burst. That’s the trade off.

I definitely don’t disagree with your point here. The Rabid armor prefix makes condition dmg + survivability easy to gear for. I don’t think anyone will argue with you on this point. However, the argument I make is more in terms of the inherent system, in addition to specific builds. Sure, you can get decent dmg with decent survivability as a Rabid-equipped condition dmg dealer, but I can do the exact same or more as a Knight-equipped Warrior or a knight-equipped guardian, since I don’t run into the inherent problem of individual burns not stacking or bleed capping, etc. Basically, if you run a condition ranger in a party with another condition ranger, only one of your burns will be counting.

Duke.4795:

What I’m arguing is that direct dmg does more burst and more sustained damage than condition dmg.

I agree with you. I would only like to point how using DPS isn’t the best way to measure it, and how it’s important that direct damage is different from condition damage.

I think one issue ArenaNet is having is by using condition damage as a sustained source of damage while trying to keep it as more than a “fire and forget” attack. GW1 had this issue – condition and hexes damage could be extremely strong, but they were linked to a “fire and forget” playstyle that didn’t promote skill.

Duke.4795:

Smitten.3076:

Condition damage specs are different from Burst damage specs for a reason, even in PvE. It’s very easy to build survivable with Condition damage, not so much with burst. That’s the trade off.

I definitely don’t disagree with your point here. The Rabid armor prefix makes condition dmg + survivability easy to gear for. I don’t think anyone will argue with you on this point. However, the argument I make is more in terms of the inherent system, in addition to specific builds. Sure, you can get decent dmg with decent survivability as a Rabid-equipped condition dmg dealer, but I can do the exact same or more as a Knight-equipped Warrior or a knight-equipped guardian, since I don’t run into the inherent problem of individual burns not stacking or bleed capping, etc. Basically, if you run a condition ranger in a party with another condition ranger, only one of your burns will be counting.

Yep and if that’s the point of the thread, then I’m right there with you. They need to figure out a way to allow multiples based on stackers in PvE only.

I’m not sure how to fix it, but here are a few ideas:

1. Every player gets their own stack
2. Add condition critical hits under the crit stat
3. Increase the raw damage (may make certain enemies tougher as a result due to their dmg being buffed…i.e. CM bandits with bleeding)

IMO the most notable problem is that conditions don’t damage structures. ANet should

1) make respecs easier or
2) allow conditions to damage structures or
3) modify structure-focused areas so that they stop being structure-focused

A good example of this problem is AC and its burrows. One path is full of them and a condition character is useless there, especially because those parts focus on bursting the burrows down. Being a bit less powerful in some spots of a dungeon is ok, but not to this degree. Similarly, any “quest” that includes destroying structures is outright painful on my condition necro.

Also, wooden carts don’t burn.

another problem with your comparison is that condition damage is applied with direct damage on top of it. my thief can get up close to 25 stacks on a target by himself using caltrops/ death blossom. but the strikes from the death blossom alsodo direct damage which needs to be factored into your dps total for comparison. the strikes that apply burning from my ele or my guardian also apply both direct damage along with the condition damage.

The main area where this becomes a issue, imo, is with dynamic events where a large mass of people gather.

This because said events scale with the number of people present, but the condition cap does not.

Observe your average DE champion for instance. Its defiant stack will increase depending on the number of people present.

And if its health follows a similar mechanic then as people show up condition damage will contribute a decreasing amount to the overall damage done.

This because each condition has a collective cap (if they stack in intensity at all), while direct damage is uncapped.

Mesmer above 3 k direct damage? With? -_- WOW and i thout i wont be able to destroy any burrow or any stuff without direct damage on my mesmer.

“Confusion would be worthwhile if enemies didn’t have their current attack rate of once every 10 seconds (exaggeration but you get my point)”

Not thats pretty moch abaut it at some mobs or bosses.
Unless you see some fast attack speed lad in pvp its pretty moch feels useless.

Part of the condition problem is the caps and precedence of effects, one persons burn/poison can be active at a time and a low damage bleed can take a slow from a high damage bleed. The easiest fix to the bleed is to remove the cap, a decent fix to burn/poison is to turn it into the bleed style (adjusted accordingly) and remove it’s cap too.

But fixing the scaling of condition damage is difficult, one of the best long term solutions would be having conditions affected by % damage increases, as many builds have them but they do nothing for conditions at present. In the case of my thief, if I use a P/P build and focus on unload I can achieve +55% damage when my target is below 50% health, but if I had a bleed build, it would do 113 damage at 100% health or 10% health which means it has no scaling ability.

At present bringing more than one condition focused character to a dungeon/fractal/event farming run is more detrimental to the group than bringing no condition focused characters. Essentially 5 direct damage warriors will have an easier time than 5 condition warriors, simply because the damage from 4 of the warriors will be less than half of what it should be on the condition side, but all five direct damage warriors will be effective.

The condition damage stacks need to be independent for each player. BAM- problem solved.

As a condition specced engineer, I’ve never had an issue putting out massive damage solo. I can usually drop an NPC as quickly or moreso than other full exotic level 80s… but stick me in a group while karma farming? My kills don’t even register and I get 0 credit, despite being on the mob from beginning to end, simply because I am doing so little damage to it.

Solo condition damage is fine, IMO. But group condition damage is as broken as it comes.

Smitten.3076:

Condition damage specs are different from Burst damage specs for a reason, even in PvE. It’s very easy to build survivable with Condition damage, not so much with burst. That’s the trade off.

Actually, the trade-off lies in how the damage is delivered, one being direct, the other over time. A bursty direct damage dealer is always going to win the time-to-kill race in a 5 second fight and no one should have a problem with this.

I believe the OP is addressing sustained damage in a more significant fight. There is no inherent reason why DoT should be any lower than direct damage. I think most people who have played condition builds realize that it is lower and even affects the extent you can tag mobs.

I would of thought the difference between direct and condition damage would be obvious even to the not so bright people out there but obvious is as obvious was so I’ll try to explain in laymen terms. You can apply condition damage from range up to 1200 yrds away traited to even further direct well you have to be in melee range in most cases now do you understand ? No… ok I’ll go one further, you would be able to kill any mob, melee character before they could get in direct damage range even then all you would have to do is kite them around till they dropped.

rifles at 1200…

Asglarek.8976:

I would of thought the difference between direct and condition damage would be obvious even to the not so bright people out there but obvious is as obvious was so I’ll try to explain in laymen terms. You can apply condition damage from range up to 1200 yrds away traited to even further direct well you have to be in melee range in most cases now do you understand ? No… ok I’ll go one further, you would be able to kill any mob, melee character before they could get in direct damage range even then all you would have to do is kite them around till they dropped.

I love posts that attempt to be condescending but then come out like this. It gives me a giggle and brightens my day.

Thank you

Duke.4795:

With the release of the new blogpost detailing the work in the next few months, I was wondering if one of the devs could address the issue of the direct and condition dmg disparity. Btw, this is PvE only. What I mean by this is:

1) Bleeds cap at 25 resulting in a maximum cap of ~3k dmg/sec assuming about 120 dmg bleeds.
2) It’s a lot of work for 1 class alone to maintain a constant 25 stacks of bleed, so for argument’s sake, most condition dmg classes will NOT be doing 3k dmg/sec
3) Direct dmg (most notably warriors and mesmers) can do >5-6k dmg/sec with minimal effort. If you don’t believe, go check out Strife’s DPS calculation with an Axe warrior. 2.5-3k crits (with 100% crit) PER AUTOATTACK with the axe which hits like every 1/3 of a second.

Condition dmg specs need to do some very creative things (like Nemesis’ Hybrid Necro) to even come close to the dmg output of direct dmg specs. I am not advocating a nerf to direct dmg, but rather an adjustment to the condition dmg. Direct dmg gets scaling off of precision, power and crit dmg, while condition dmg scales off of only Condition dmg and condition duration. Bleeds, burns and poisons need a slightly improved condition dmg coefficient in addition to a slight raise to the bleed cap.

It’s true and on top of this there’s a disparity between the damage output of condi abilities between the classes. For some reason they feel the need to make the damage different for the same weapons between the classes it never makes for a more evenly matched system.

Like rifle doing different base damage between warrior and engi.

Then we have the lack of initial damage we find between the classes like the damage for the final dagger attack that does poison on the thief/the fumigate ability on the engi’s EG not doing the initial hit that accompanies the classes like ele/ranger traps/necro marks builds.

I’m serious there’s a problem here no one is looking at or poopooing because they play a class that doesn’t have this issue. When I play my engi there should be an initial amount of damage on those abilities that apply condis just like if i were playing my trap ranger.

This initial damage is the reason why we see the ability of necro staff users and ranger trap throwers to three shot mobs with condi damage in pve but we don’t see that with the engineer. The initial damage form the combo field on the thief is the same way, the initial damage is missing.

If you test this you will see that the condi damage will tick with these abilities however nothing else comes off the enemy on these classes with the issue.

On the classes like a trap ranger for example you will see large chunks of damage come off of the enemies and a couple of nanoseconds later you’ll see the condi damage ticks appear. So some damage is occurring that’s not necessarily in the tooltips with how these abilities behave.

OK

You guys are wrong.

Let me explain.

First of all, you need to compare:

power with 0% crit vs condition damage

not [power + crit + crit damage] DPS vs [condition] DPS

You can see why, right?

In one case, you’re using 3 stats maxed to achieve higher DPS than the other case where you are using 1 stat maxed out.

Second of all:

Condition damage ignores toughness.

This is a very big deal. Whereas direct damage is heavily mitigated by armor (toughness + defense), condition damage is not, allowing it to slice through heavy armor the same as light.

So again, instead of comparing direct damage on a paper target to condition damage on a paper target, compare them on a high armor target.

Remember – 0% crit to keep it fair.

1 stat.

Condition damage is already very strong, and allows bunker stats to be mixed in.

For people to go power+crit+critdamage, they need to be total glass cannons, and as such will spend a majority of their time in downed state.

Do not counter the fact that as more people join a event, the hard cap on conditions makes them count less towards the total damage done. Beyond maybe 2 people applying conditions, it does not matter. But going for 1 person to 10 persons (or beyond) doing direct damage matters a great deal. In essence, condition damage suffers from diminishing returns during large events while direct damage does not!

My number one gripe with conditions is that they are too easy to remove. It’s so easy to counter conditions and it takes no skill to do so. To counter direct damage you have to dodge or use the right skill at the right time.

xiv.7136:

OK

You guys are wrong.

Let me explain.

First of all, you need to compare:

power with 0% crit vs condition damage

not [power + crit + crit damage] DPS vs [condition] DPS

You can see why, right?

In one case, you’re using 3 stats maxed to achieve higher DPS than the other case where you are using 1 stat maxed out.

Second of all:

Condition damage ignores toughness.

This is a very big deal. Whereas direct damage is heavily mitigated by armor (toughness + defense), condition damage is not, allowing it to slice through heavy armor the same as light.

So again, instead of comparing direct damage on a paper target to condition damage on a paper target, compare them on a high armor target.

Remember – 0% crit to keep it fair.

1 stat.

Condition damage is already very strong, and allows bunker stats to be mixed in.

For people to go power+crit+critdamage, they need to be total glass cannons, and as such will spend a majority of their time in downed state.

You probably forgot to add that some people have to blow a lot of cooldowns to apply, let`s say a 15-20 stack of bleeds which can be erased with the push of 1 button. On the other hand you cannot erase direct damage. There are classes that do more than decent damage using soldier or knight gear while maintaining a very good amount of survivability. Conditions should be harder to cleanse AND harder to apply in the case of some classes.

you forgot that condition specked people still do normal damage.
I have a guardian and a necro all condi specked. My mesmer is going to be condi specked too.
On my necro I can do bleeds, poisons and fire at the same time with some signets, I can wipe conditions on me and put them back on bosses and at the same time I still do 400 – 500 damage a hit.
On my guardian I can keep constant fire going for 5 minutes while still having regular damage, knockbacks and survivability.
A mesmer with good confusion is op against some dungeon bosses and thieves.
It’s all about how you play. I’m seeing condi damage as something great and worth going for.

xiv.7136:

OK

You guys are wrong.

Let me explain.

First of all, you need to compare:

power with 0% crit vs condition damage

not [power + crit + crit damage] DPS vs [condition] DPS

You can see why, right?

In one case, you’re using 3 stats maxed to achieve higher DPS than the other case where you are using 1 stat maxed out.

Second of all:

Condition damage ignores toughness.

This is a very big deal. Whereas direct damage is heavily mitigated by armor (toughness + defense), condition damage is not, allowing it to slice through heavy armor the same as light.

So again, instead of comparing direct damage on a paper target to condition damage on a paper target, compare them on a high armor target.

Remember – 0% crit to keep it fair.

1 stat.

Condition damage is already very strong, and allows bunker stats to be mixed in.

For people to go power+crit+critdamage, they need to be total glass cannons, and as such will spend a majority of their time in downed state.

Your efforts to cut out crit and crit damage from the comparison highlight the issue. Crit and crit damage are highly effective stats for dealing damage that are entirely unavailable to condition builds. Not just less effective, completely ineffective. Direct damage builds can trade-off some dps for survivability if they choose, while condition builds have no choice at all. You can’t just unilaterally decide that crit and crit damage don’t count/don’t matter, because they are baseline traits (at least crit% is, I’m not sure about crit damage).

Condition damage would, at best, have to be normalized to be equal to straight damage + base crit% chance (4%, I think?). Even then, capping condition stacks means that even if damage is held equal on a single player basis, group fight situations immediately start to reduce the efficacy of condition damage.

I’m curious about the armor/toughness deal. I’d like to see a real numbers scenario calculated out. I’m sure somebody with more maths willpower than I have could calculate loose breakpoints and/or time to die estimates based on condition stacks, armor, and general number/type of damage sources (i.e., party make-up of direct damage and condition builds).

The issue of tagging mobs in DEs (you know, those open world things that the devs are prioritizing and pushing to be a focal point of the PVE game) is at least as serious an issue. As it is, my necro (and even my ele) have a hard time tagging mobs as effectively as my guardian in the typical pen/shelt zergs. As the game shifts to emphasize bringing the community together in these events, attention needs to be paid to providing as close to equal ROI as possible for all builds. Give tag credit to healing numbers as well as damage, and my ele is happy. Not really sure what would help the most for my necro, other than reduce cooldowns for harder hitting skills.

Smitten.3076:

On paper you are correct, in a dungeon you are wrong. Every time that Glass cannon takes a smack in the face, they lose heal/utilities/dodges and damage on the target. If they take a few, they go down. You don’t have to worry about that as a Condition damage build, baring that most CD builds also offer decent group support over the glass cannon builds.

If the argument is about bringing multiple CD builds into one group, then yes you’d have a point. Otherwise no , you shouldn’t be comparing the two.

Glass cannon? What glass cannon? A warrior can deal that 2000 dmg auto-attack by dedicating a large portion of his build, but not all of it, there is still room to build survivability and the warriors innate survivability. Whereas with condition damage, your damage capacity caps out with only a meager portion of your build dedicated to damage, and it is still less than it would be with that much of your build dedicated to power.

There is no way to defend the argument of “an increase of 1 over 1 second will eventually be greater than an increase of 2 over 1 second”, it is mathematically impossible.

xiv.7136:

OK

You guys are wrong.

Let me explain.

First of all, you need to compare:

power with 0% crit vs condition damage

not [power + crit + crit damage] DPS vs [condition] DPS

You can see why, right?

In one case, you’re using 3 stats maxed to achieve higher DPS than the other case where you are using 1 stat maxed out.

Second of all:

Condition damage ignores toughness.

This is a very big deal. Whereas direct damage is heavily mitigated by armor (toughness + defense), condition damage is not, allowing it to slice through heavy armor the same as light.

So again, instead of comparing direct damage on a paper target to condition damage on a paper target, compare them on a high armor target.

Remember – 0% crit to keep it fair.

1 stat.

Condition damage is already very strong, and allows bunker stats to be mixed in.

For people to go power+crit+critdamage, they need to be total glass cannons, and as such will spend a majority of their time in downed state.

not all bunker builds work universally the same, they have non-tooltipped abilities like a portion of the initial hit as instant damage that is different between the classes. Also, not all of the portion of the damage between the class abilities work exactly the same. The staff abilities of the necro for example will have a different damage ratio then the poison 3rd hit of a dagger attack from a thief for example.

I guess my point is this. Not all of the math is represented because I and many like me have paid attention to the behaviors of these abilities when in use and they all don’t kill the same way and they should.

There is an initial hit of damage on some class’s condi damage bunker builds that doesn’t exist even when traited and built with the same +% numbers, gear, and enhancements as the class in comparison.

Then there’s the problem of toughness not really affording that much protection vs the burst damage builds. It’s obvious when the 2 classes with 1 shot abilities can do their kills despite the added protection. I’ve seen it myself.

xiv.7136:

OK

You guys are wrong.

Let me explain.

First of all, you need to compare:

power with 0% crit vs condition damage

not [power + crit + crit damage] DPS vs [condition] DPS

You can see why, right?

In one case, you’re using 3 stats maxed to achieve higher DPS than the other case where you are using 1 stat maxed out.

Second of all:

Condition damage ignores toughness.

This is a very big deal. Whereas direct damage is heavily mitigated by armor (toughness + defense), condition damage is not, allowing it to slice through heavy armor the same as light.

So again, instead of comparing direct damage on a paper target to condition damage on a paper target, compare them on a high armor target.

Remember – 0% crit to keep it fair.

1 stat.

Condition damage is already very strong, and allows bunker stats to be mixed in.

For people to go power+crit+critdamage, they need to be total glass cannons, and as such will spend a majority of their time in downed state.

No we are not wrong. When you are talking about sustained damage, as I am, you are talking about direct damage (all sources) and condition damage (all sources—including that it ignores toughness). The sustained damage of direct damage should not be materially different than condition damage in a non-trivial fight. Again, we are not talking about sources of damage or glass cannons, we are talking about direct damage vs. condition damage. What the OP noted is that there is a disparity in non-trivial fights. There is. There shouldn’t be. There are additional issues like the disparity of condition builds to tag mobs in DE’s and the disparity in the ability to destroy environmental objects that represent a problem in general gameplay for those with condition builds. These are things that should be noted and fixed, not defended or excused.

Difference is condi damage isnt affected by armor toughness or prot. Well I dont think its affected by prot, but even if it is toughness and armor doesnt affect it at all. Where as direct damage is affected way too much.

Would be nice to change crit damage stat to something like “Intensity” and make it affect condition damage in some way, and add some more mobs with the high toughness trait.

Precision already helps some condition builds due to crit procs, so that doesn’t need a change really :p

My inability to burn environmental objects makes me sad.

No way should 1 offensive stat (condition) be anywhere remotely comparable to 3 offensive stats (power, precision, crit damage). You want to do more dps? Equip more offensive stats.

The bleed cap is stupid though. I can’t see any point in having it.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Sollution-Condition-Stacking-Boons/first#post706399

Nurvus.2891:

Please keep it constructive.

Currently, the Conditions that stack intensity have a cap (25), wich makes large scale battles penalize players that like condition builds.

A single player that focuses on 1 type of condition can easily get up to 10-15 stacks of a single condition by himself on an enemy. That’s about half the limit (25).

Increasing the cap to 50 or 100 just strains the server without really fixing the problem.

So I think the Condition mechanics should be changed for Conditions that stack Intensity.

Current Mechanics

1. Each stack of boon/condition is monitored individually, both in power and duration.
   Example:
   - You apply a 20 damage over 5 seconds bleed.
   - It does 4 damage per second
   - 3 seconds later (3×4=12 damage done), 8 damage and 2 seconds remain.
   - At this point you apply another 20 damage over 5 seconds bleed.
   - Since each stack’s damage and duration are tracked individually, this is the damage you see per second:
   Time = Damage
   Second 1 = 4 –
   Second 2 = 4 –
   Second 3 = 4 –
   Second 4 = 4 4
   Second 5 = 4 4
   Second 6 = – 4
   Second 7 = – 4
   Second 8 = – 4
   Both stacks deal damage simultaneously during the 4th and 5th seconds, at wich point the first stack falls, and leaves the second stack dealing damage on the 6th, 7th and 8th seconds.
2. There is a maximum number of stacks, wich is understandable and probably has something to do with server performance.
3. A player can own more than one stack, wich penalizes other players.
   This includes poisons and burning.
   Several players applying poison or burning are penalizing each other because the effect doesn’t stack, only increases duration, and it simply gets overriden by the player with the best condition damage.
4. Effects that Cure 1 Condition remove all stacks of 1 condition.

Suggested Mechanics

1. Each stack is still monitored individually
2. There is still a maximum number of stacks (can stay 25).
3. Each player owns 1 stack, wich makes it fair for everyone when there happen to be multiple condition builds
   This includes Burning and Poison, making several players applying Burning and Poison no longer penalize each other.
   However, each player’s stack of Burning and Poison only gets extended in duration, and it can only be extended by its owner.
   The poison’s 33% Heal Reduction does not stack.
4. Effects that Cure 1 Condition would remove X stacks of 1 condition.
5. When applying a new Bleed, Confusion or Regeneration effect, it simply adds the new effect’s damage/healing to the old effect’s remaining damage/healing, and the new duration is a percentage of the new effect’s duration plus a percentage of the old effect’s remaining duration.
   These percentages are based on the weight of each effect’s damage comparing to the combined total.
   If the old effect’s remaining damage is 40% of the combined damage, then 40% of the old effect’s remaining duration is added to 60% of the new effect’s duration.
   The goal is making it so that the resulting damage and duration after the effect is updated has the adequate change in damage per second.
   Example:
   - You apply a 20 damage over 5 seconds bleed.
   - It does 4 damage per second
   - 3 seconds later (3×4=12 damage done), 8 damage and 2 seconds remain.
   - At this point you apply another 20 damage over 5 seconds bleed.
   - It will add the remaining 8 damage to the new 20 = 28.
   - Since 8 is 35% of 28 and 20 is 65% of 28, it will add 35% of 2 seconds to 65% of 5 seconds = 3.95 seconds.
   If it simply added the durations, you’d lose Damage per Second everytime you applied a new effect.
   If it simply used the the new duration, you’d gain Damage per Second by applying a shorter duration effect.
   Neither of these would be fair.

bleed was nerfed because of pvp. can you imagine all the poor thiefs going stealth and dieing of bleeding??? this is unacceptable:)

PetricaKerempuh.7958:

bleed was nerfed because of pvp. can you imagine all the poor thiefs going stealth and dieing of bleeding??? this is unacceptable:)

You’re probably not going to like the fact that thief is one of the best condition damage classes out there xD

condition dmg need to be nerfed to the grown, wvw will be a lot better then. I wish they give these condition class some direct dmg skills instead….

aNTarTis.2561:

condition dmg need to be nerfed to the grown, wvw will be a lot better then. I wish they give these condition class some direct dmg skills instead….

Well, it is better to read this than being blind.

I just don’t know why there is a bleed cap in PvE.

I didn’t read all of this, so I apologize if this has been posted.

If these caps were to be removed (or conditions just made to do more damage), would we see less abilities that inflict these conditions? Seems like there are a lot of attacks out there that just stack up these conditions. I don’t even build for conditions at all, and yet I apply six of them regularly without even trying to. I think that if they improve condition damage or remove the stack limit, then they should also change conditions to be something that is consciously applied, rather than something that accumulates by accident.

aNTarTis.2561:

condition dmg need to be nerfed to the grown, wvw will be a lot better then. I wish they give these condition class some direct dmg skills instead….

The solution is not to make condition damage direct damage. That simply loses the distinctiveness of DoT. DoT affords a different playstyle altogether and many people enjoy it. It’s not inherently OP in PvP but has perhaps some psychological benefits. If you are at the wrong end of a GS during 100b alarms and sirens are going off in your head. Because damaging conditions are delivered over time you may not pay attention to the damage until it’s too late. Neither build is inherently OP. They both do the same thing differently and, again, afford different playstyles. The only thing that needs to be done in the context of this thread is to balance the sustained damage of both. Problem solved.

Undertow.2389:

No way should 1 offensive stat (condition) be anywhere remotely comparable to 3 offensive stats (power, precision, crit damage). You want to do more dps? Equip more offensive stats.

The bleed cap is stupid though. I can’t see any point in having it.

The whole point is that there ARE no other offensive stats for condition builds! There aren’t even any primary attributes that increase condition damage, while there are two that increase direct damage so direct damage scales with level far more effectively. The other secondary attribute that affects condition damage (duration) can even have a negative effect due to stack limits if a long duration bleed based on low condition damage prevents a higher damage bleed from being applied. There are no drawbacks to the two secondary attributes for direct damage. So, even at a level of base character attributes, direct damage has guaranteed bonuses from two primary and two secondary attributes, while condition damage gets a guaranteed benefit from only one secondary attribute and MAY benefit from another secondary.

xiv.7136:

PetricaKerempuh.7958:

bleed was nerfed because of pvp. can you imagine all the poor thiefs going stealth and dieing of bleeding??? this is unacceptable:)

You’re probably not going to like the fact that thief is one of the best condition damage classes out there xD

so?