Guild Wars 2

If Human and Norn armies were to face off against one another, who would win?

Unless I am missing something, I would have to side with the Norn, because all races can be any profession, so the Norn’s innate sheer physical superiority would tip the balance.

Thoughts?

Edited for clarity;
this topic is intended to deal with the lore in the Guild Wars franchise, not the actual gameplay in Guild Wars 2.

Norn don’t have armies.

if you are talking about physical superiority, charr wins hands down.

but charrs are dumb.

if you look at the foodchain in this world, human is at the top because they have the highest IQ.

its the same here.

Human has more mental capacity than all other races.

Probably the Norn (if you go by GW1), except for the weakness of Norn discipline: they are usually lousy soldiers because most of them are too individualistic. There are a few exceptions, but they join the Lion guard or the Orders.

Just convincing more than five to join you on your quest to fight the Destroyers was impossible.

That said, disorganised as they are, they were an even match for the Charr, who were not able to overcome humanity after overthrowing the Flame Legion.

EremiteAngel.9765:

if you are talking about physical superiority, charr wins hands down.

but charrs are dumb.

if you look at the foodchain in this world, human is at the top because they have the highest IQ.

its the same here.

Human has more mental capacity than all other races.

That is not the case in GW2, humans are declining and the other races have matched them.

Humans are more intelligent and are better organized so my bet would be on them. Though if it came down to a war of attrition then Norn would do better,

Plus aren’t Norns just Nordic based Humans anyways.

BrooksP.4318:

Plus aren’t Norns just Nordic based Humans anyways.

No.

Norn by far there the strongest race off all even Charr try to capture there land but fail hard

Norn are very much to them self but if you step on there land you will have a very hard time

the only race that might beat Norn is Asura only by there wisdom not strength

lordkrall.7241:

BrooksP.4318:

Plus aren’t Norns just Nordic based Humans anyways.

No.

yes you can see Norns as vikings
the cold areas and there hunters

Genlog.4983:

yes you can see Norns as vikings
the cold areas and there hunters

Oh, I agree that the are inspired by the vikings.
But that doesn’t mean they are humans.
They might look a bit like humans, but that doesn’t make them humans.

lordkrall.7241:

Genlog.4983:

yes you can see Norns as vikings
the cold areas and there hunters

Oh, I agree that the are inspired by the vikings.
But that doesn’t mean they are humans.
They might look a bit like humans, but that doesn’t make them humans.

Not just inspired, but almost every aspect is based off of Nordic or Viking Lore, even their names. Sounds like Norns are just lazy story writing, copy and paste Nordic Lore, call them Norn, and say they are a non-human with unknown origins… They might aswell just had Kodan as Norn and never made Norns.

I would say that one of the major aspects of the Norn is not even remotely based on Norse lore but rather native american.

Are we going to go on claiming that Sylvari is just green humans as well then? Or Asura being very smart, tiny humans?

lordkrall.7241:

I would say that one of the major aspects of the Norn is not even remotely based on Norse lore but rather native american.

Are we going to go on claiming that Sylvari is just green humans as well then? Or Asura being very smart, tiny humans?

If your talking about shifting into animals, then that is also based off of Norse Lore, just in a literal sense. For example some Viking fighters(known as Berserkers) would go into a self induced “high” to emulate the strength of a bear.

Sylvari is what you are arguing about with Norn, they have a similar physical appearance as Human, but are totally different. Asura are just evolved mice, so no. Norns are just tall nordic based humans, or a cross breed between Kodan and Human.

I have studied Norse mythology quite extensively, and I have yet to come up to a single situation where the praying to spirit animals happen. Which is basically what most of the Norn society is built around.

Oh, so we don’t count Sylvari as human, despite them being much closer to humans than Norn, but Norn are totally human?

Asura have no connection to rats/mice (you are probably thinking about Skritts, which are basically big talking rats).

Norn, individually, are no more physically powerful than humans. They lack discipline, organization, and an army.

Essentially it would be a fight between a human army and individual Norn. No contest, humans win.

Ashen.2907:

Norn, individually, are no more physically powerful than humans. They lack discipline, organization, and an army.

Actually I believe a Norn is much more physically powerful than a human. They are simply shown as equal for the sake of game-play.

BrooksP.4318:

lordkrall.7241:

Genlog.4983:

yes you can see Norns as vikings
the cold areas and there hunters

Oh, I agree that the are inspired by the vikings.
But that doesn’t mean they are humans.
They might look a bit like humans, but that doesn’t make them humans.

Not just inspired, but almost every aspect is based off of Nordic or Viking Lore, even their names. Sounds like Norns are just lazy story writing, copy and paste Nordic Lore, call them Norn, and say they are a non-human with unknown origins… They might aswell just had Kodan as Norn and never made Norns.

Not every aspect at all. Much, including religion and aspects of their culture and society, is based off North American culture

lordkrall.7241:

Ashen.2907:

Norn, individually, are no more physically powerful than humans. They lack discipline, organization, and an army.

Actually I believe a Norn is much more physically powerful than a human. They are simply shown as equal for the sake of game-play.

In game they are equal. Anet could have given them more power and balanced them in another way. They chose to make Norn equal to the other races in this regard.

lordkrall.7241:

I have studied Norse mythology quite extensively, and I have yet to come up to a single situation where the praying to spirit animals happen. Which is basically what most of the Norn society is built around.

Oh, so we don’t count Sylvari as human, despite them being much closer to humans than Norn, but Norn are totally human?

Asura have no connection to rats/mice (you are probably thinking about Skritts, which are basically big talking rats).

“Praying” is a Christian view on faith, where as Norse was much more diverse. Animals where not considered gods, they where considered same as them, beasts born of nature. They would call on animal spirits to aid them, or use them in remembrance of the dead. Shamanism for example was the blend of the earth, man, and beast and that a Shaman could connect in the spirit world, since the belief was that all spirits where connected.

Sylvari are born of a tree, unleashed by a dragon, have a skin composed of bark, and only resemble the humanoid figure. So there is almost no connection there outside of looks which is far more unique when comparing Humans/Sylvari then Humans/Norn.

Skritt are evolved rats, Asura are evolved mice. While not in the literal sense, they seem to be modeled after them, and their cities are like mazes.

E: In regards to the comparison of Native Americans and Norse, the two are quite similar from a baseline perspective in regards to the connection between ones self and nature.

Ashen.2907:

In game they are equal. Anet could have given them more power and balanced them in another way. They chose to make Norn equal to the other races in this regard.

Except that they basically couldn’t without making a situation where one race would be “required” to be optimal for a specific profession. Something that they made rather clear that they wouldn’t.

A Norn in lore is basically on the power-level that they could easily kill a bear with only their fists.

BrooksP.4318:

“Praying” is a Christian view on faith, where as Norse was much more diverse. Animals where not considered gods, they where considered same as them, beasts born of nature. They would call on animal spirits to aid them, or use them in remembrance of the dead. Shamanism for example was the blend of the earth, man, and beast and that a Shaman could connect in the spirit world, since the belief was that all spirits where connected.

Sylvari are born of a tree, unleashed by a dragon, have a skin composed of bark, and only resemble the humanoid figure. So there is almost no connection there outside of looks which is far more unique when comparing Humans/Sylvari then Humans/Norn.

Skritt are evolved rats, Asura are evolved mice. While not in the literal sense, they seem to be modeled after them, and their cities are like mazes.

Most (if not all) religions pray. It is not something specific for Christianity.
I am rather aware on the Norse mythology, which I pointed out in the earlier post. I have studied it quite a bit (being Swede and all makes it quite interesting to read up on the historical beliefs of our ancestors and so on).
As far as I am aware there are no stories in the Norse history where the people would call upon animal spirits.
Shamanism is not something from the Norse mythology either for that matter.

Sylvari have the same size as humans. They have basically the same physic overall as humans. They are rather close to humans when it comes to morale and believes and such. Much more so than Human — Norn.

ArenaNet themselves have been rather clear multiple times that Norn != big humans.

lordkrall.7241:

A Norn in lore is basically on the power-level that they could easily kill a bear with only their fists.

The game says otherwise. The people who created the game decided that Norn were no more physically powerful than humans. People can imagine or pretend otherwise to their heart’s content, which does not change the quantifiable objective fact that Norn characters have no more physical power, racially, than do humans.

lordkrall.7241:

I have studied Norse mythology quite extensively, and I have yet to come up to a single situation where the praying to spirit animals happen. Which is basically what most of the Norn society is built around.

You’re right but then at the same time you’re also wrong.

You’re right that the Norse people who worshiped the Æsir didn’t pray to spirit animals. That doesn’t mean it didn’t happen though. Not all Norse tribes had the same religion. Not all of them worshiped the Æsir.

When you studied Norse mythology, you probably only studied one specific Norse religion (Odinism). But there were other Norse religions as well and some of the Norse religions were build around nature worship, including praying to the spirits of their ancestors and praying to spirit animals (in fact I’d say nature worship was older, more common and more wide-spread than Odinism).

So yes, the Norn culture is very much taken from ancient Norse culture, including the worship of nature and spirit animals.

The more you know.

Ashen.2907:

The game says otherwise. The people who created the game decided that Norn were no more physically powerful than humans. People can imagine or pretend otherwise to their heart’s content, which does not change the quantifiable objective fact that Norn characters have no more physical power, racially, than do humans.

Gameplay != Lore.

Ashen.2907:

lordkrall.7241:

A Norn in lore is basically on the power-level that they could easily kill a bear with only their fists.

The game says otherwise. The people who created the game decided that Norn were no more physically powerful than humans. People can imagine or pretend otherwise to their heart’s content, which does not change the quantifiable objective fact that Norn characters have no more physical power, racially, than do humans.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation

The lore of norns from the first game and also the books portrayed the Norn to be physically more powerful than humans. Only Charr were regarded to being close to their prowess. In Sea of Sorrows for eg, 2 Norn utterly decimated legions of Orrian undead. Also at 9 foot in height and built with broad, heavily muscular bodies, by that nature alone they will be more powerful.

One of my few criticisms of the game early on was the portrayal of the races and how each race lost some of their distinctions (partly due to the 3 orders and the need to put all 5 races in each, whether they fitted or not). Norn may not be portrayed accurately for gameplay reasons, but they are more physically powerful than humans.

It is a shame that they made races homogeneous due to balancing reasons, instead of allowing diversity. Not sure if that fault is from a dev standpoint or a player’s mindset.

BrooksP.4318:

It is a shame that they made races homogeneous due to balancing reasons, instead of allowing diversity. Not sure if that fault is from a dev standpoint or a player’s mindset.

Prob both tbh. If the devs hadn’t have done it, it would have been demanded by players X race should be able to be like Y race etc etc

there is 1 area for Norn that you see how insane strong they are
1 female child ask her dad to kill a bug

she take that GS bigger then her and swing it like it was as light as a feather
when i saw that i think omg she is strong for her age

if a human child try that i think he cant even lift that GS
so that’s why i think the Norn are just very powerfull

but in the game all is balance

BrooksP.4318:

It is a shame that they made races homogeneous due to balancing reasons, instead of allowing diversity. Not sure if that fault is from a dev standpoint or a player’s mindset.

What diversity is there in all power classes play Norn, all condi classes play slyvari, all tanks play charr, etc. And if you tried to go “off type”, an Asuran power character, you’d get booted out of a dungeon party or a GvG guild, more so then you get the “zerk exp only” in the LFG already.

What they did is a much better option to not have your cosmetic look (or the first chapter of your story) effect game play in the slightest (why do you think 99% of the racial skills are all rubbish).

lordkrall.7241:

Ashen.2907:

The game says otherwise. The people who created the game decided that Norn were no more physically powerful than humans. People can imagine or pretend otherwise to their heart’s content, which does not change the quantifiable objective fact that Norn characters have no more physical power, racially, than do humans.

Gameplay != Lore.

Which one of those two has numbers to support a position?

In GW2 it is an objective fact that norn are no more physically powerful than humans. Feel free to pretend otherwise if you like.

In GW2 GAMEPLAY they are equal, in story a Norn is much stronger than a human.

Just to re-iterate the OP, this is obviously a topic tied directly to the lore in the Guild Wars franchise, not the actual gameplay in Guild Wars 2.

Ashen.2907:

Which one of those two has numbers to support a position?

In GW2 it is an objective fact that norn are no more physically powerful than humans. Feel free to pretend otherwise if you like.

Might I suggest you actually spend some time listening to what is said and watch what is shown in the game? In this very thread there is an in-game example that shows that Norn are stronger.

There is also examples from the official books.

Pure Heart.1456:

Just to re-iterate the OP, this is obviously a topic tied directly to the lore in the Guild Wars franchise, not the actual gameplay in Guild Wars 2.

Doesnt the lore in the GW franchise indicate that Norn dont have armies?

Sylv.5324:

EremiteAngel.9765:

if you are talking about physical superiority, charr wins hands down.

but charrs are dumb.

if you look at the foodchain in this world, human is at the top because they have the highest IQ.

its the same here.

Human has more mental capacity than all other races.

That is not the case in GW2, humans are declining and the other races have matched them.

In case you haven’t noticed all races are doing pretty badly now.

lordkrall.7241:

Ashen.2907:

In game they are equal. Anet could have given them more power and balanced them in another way. They chose to make Norn equal to the other races in this regard.

Except that they basically couldn’t without making a situation where one race would be “required” to be optimal for a specific profession. Something that they made rather clear that they wouldn’t.

A Norn in lore is basically on the power-level that they could easily kill a bear with only their fists.

While I do agree that norn are pretty strong they’re also held back by the fact that they want to preserve their “honor” and seek to create a name and legend for themselves that will live on.

Thus in single combat I presume they’re more inclined to take the brave and glorious approach.

While humans are smaller and weaker they’re also more deceptive and shrewd. They have laxer morals and no high goals of glory and legend.

I could easily see a human winning a 1 v 1 with a norn just by applying, deceitful and unfair but effective tactics.

lordkrall.7241:

Ashen.2907:

Which one of those two has numbers to support a position?

In GW2 it is an objective fact that norn are no more physically powerful than humans. Feel free to pretend otherwise if you like.

Might I suggest you actually spend some time listening to what is said and watch what is shown in the game? In this very thread there is an in-game example that shows that Norn are stronger.

There is also examples from the official books.

What example given in this thread shows that norn, as a race have more pysical power than humans?

In game it is demonstrated objectively that norn do not have a racial advantage in physical power compared to humans.

Wallace MacBix.2089:

BrooksP.4318:

It is a shame that they made races homogeneous due to balancing reasons, instead of allowing diversity. Not sure if that fault is from a dev standpoint or a player’s mindset.

What diversity is there in all power classes play Norn, all condi classes play slyvari, all tanks play charr, etc. And if you tried to go “off type”, an Asuran power character, you’d get booted out of a dungeon party or a GvG guild, more so then you get the “zerk exp only” in the LFG already.

What they did is a much better option to not have your cosmetic look (or the first chapter of your story) effect game play in the slightest (why do you think 99% of the racial skills are all rubbish).

Diversity in regards to the races outside of just cosmetics, not professions they choose. As I stated the min-max ideology, which you referenced too, is the fault of players mindset. Not to mention the fact that GW2 profession system is designed to be a jack of all trades, where individual stats aren’t just useful in a singular profession or build.

E: To be clear, I’m not saying making them equal was a bad choice, its actually a understandable choice from a MMOs standpoint. That doesn’t mean I actually care for it, or really the state of RPGs that creates this “every race is equal” and “race is only about looks” mindset.

lordkrall.7241:

Ashen.2907:

Which one of those two has numbers to support a position?

In GW2 it is an objective fact that norn are no more physically powerful than humans. Feel free to pretend otherwise if you like.

Might I suggest you actually spend some time listening to what is said and watch what is shown in the game? In this very thread there is an in-game example that shows that Norn are stronger.

There is also examples from the official books.

Another thing that is a pretty good indirect indicator in game is the Norn city. Take a look at how huge the buildings are. Either the Norn are technological geniuses able to device machinery to help them build that, or they’re just that strong. Compare that to the humans who have been trying to repair broken brides in LA for over a year (har har).

Besides, common sense has to tell you that bigger (with similar proportions) usually means stronger (their legs have to carry more weight for example). Add on top of their lifestyle of traveling, hunting, and fighting, which also points to their increased physical attributes (lore wise). Then you have the dev’s saying that the Norns are stronger (and stronger than they look like they should be) because they are not just big humans.

To the OP:
I feel like if the humans rallied an army to invade the Shiverpeaks, they would lose. The Norns would rally under a chieftain’s guidance to defend their homes in mass and drive off the humans. They would have the home field advantage, including being used to the cold climate, compared to the temperate Kryta. Plus the humans would need to deal with the other natural inhabitants, Jotun, wolves, and Sons of Svanir for example. Oh lets not also forget, that unlike the human gods which fled the world, the Norn spirits still answer their people.

But the Norn also would never go out with an army of their own to conquer the humans.

Ashen.2907:

What example given in this thread shows that norn, as a race have more pysical power than humans?

In game it is demonstrated objectively that norn do not have a racial advantage in physical power compared to humans.

This:

there is 1 area for Norn that you see how insane strong they are
1 female child ask her dad to kill a bug
she take that GS bigger then her and swing it like it was as light as a feather
when i saw that i think omg she is strong for her age
if a human child try that i think he cant even lift that GS
so that’s why i think the Norn are just very powerfull
but in the game all is balance

Yes, in the game, due to GAMEPLAY BALANCE, they are the same. That is quite irrelevant though, when there are examples in the LORE that shows us that they are stronger.

Or are you going to come claiming that an Asura would win a arm-wrestling match against a Norn as well?

BrooksP.4318:

Wallace MacBix.2089:

BrooksP.4318:

It is a shame that they made races homogeneous due to balancing reasons, instead of allowing diversity. Not sure if that fault is from a dev standpoint or a player’s mindset.

What diversity is there in all power classes play Norn, all condi classes play slyvari, all tanks play charr, etc. And if you tried to go “off type”, an Asuran power character, you’d get booted out of a dungeon party or a GvG guild, more so then you get the “zerk exp only” in the LFG already.

What they did is a much better option to not have your cosmetic look (or the first chapter of your story) effect game play in the slightest (why do you think 99% of the racial skills are all rubbish).

Diversity in regards to the races outside of just cosmetics, not professions they choose. As I stated the min-max ideology, which you referenced too, is the fault of players mindset. Not to mention the fact that GW2 profession system is designed to be a jack of all trades, where individual stats aren’t just useful in a singular profession or build.

There is no diversity if everyone is forced to min-max their race, again outside of non-optimal playstyles, which a lot of people in the game won’t tolerate. Even if somethings just 5% better, people will want that little extra bonus (for example ascended armor, completely unnecessary outside of high fractals but still people get those extra tiny attribute bumps).

So, it’s the players mindset that caused Anet to willingly separate from the trinity and do their own thing, not their own design philosophy? Who knew. I for one am happy for it. If you want your race to change your stats there are plenty of games out there that do that. Gw2 is one of the few (the only one I know of) that lets me know if I beat someone it’s because I was the better player, not because the other player thought the idea of an Asuran guard was cute.

will be fun to try make a very cute female asura and beg not to kill me because am cute :p

The main problem in perception of Norn comes from the fact that a big part of the player base uses the smallest size Norn model when creating their characters (myself included, guilty :/ ).

It does not convey how big the actual difference is and that Norn aren’t simply “big humans”. That doesn’t even factor in their shapeshifting abilities.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-VEqMalx61YQ/UAzIonHMD5I/AAAAAAAAAEs/jg318bV0Iow/s1599/Height%2520Comparison%2520-%2520Norn%2520vs%2520Human.png

Is quite nice and shows a full size norn is close to 1.4 times the size of his human equvalent.

As far as strength goes, the official books and any lore on that matter is very clear on the topic of Norn being the strongest single individual amongst all 5 races. This is obviously adapted for play where a Norn character will be just as physically strong as an Asura (while being close to 3 times their size).

As for the title of the topic, that’s difficult. Norn have no armies and humans have been on the decline ever since the Charr invasion of Ascalon and the Foefire. It would be much easier to compare any of the 4 races besides humans to each other due to:

- people identifying with humans
- uncertanty how much strength is actually left in the human culture in gw2 after losing Ascalon, Orr and their gods
- most races living in peace (besides ebonhawke and human vs charr skirmishes)

Ashen.2907:

lordkrall.7241:

Ashen.2907:

Which one of those two has numbers to support a position?

In GW2 it is an objective fact that norn are no more physically powerful than humans. Feel free to pretend otherwise if you like.

Might I suggest you actually spend some time listening to what is said and watch what is shown in the game? In this very thread there is an in-game example that shows that Norn are stronger.

There is also examples from the official books.

What example given in this thread shows that norn, as a race have more pysical power than humans?

In game it is demonstrated objectively that norn do not have a racial advantage in physical power compared to humans.

Ashen, I’m not sure if you are trolling, or just simply don’t understand that game mechanics does not equal lore.

I think it would depend where they fight. If the humans would attack them in the shiverpeaks the norn would be in a huge adventage. They know better how to fight, survive and ambush enemies in their terrain.
However if you would set up the two armies in front of eachother in the slight flat landscape of kryta, the humans would have some adventage mainly because of greater numbers but also their technoligy like ballistas would easily be used.

When we look who would make a stronger warrior itself…ye norn

At what time are we taking this into account? Because norns a year ago would just hide around a corner and bearform/leopard form rush and slaughter the entire army

I joke.

Realistically the Humans would win with their much more structured military.

If you look at real world history many barbaric forces were able to beat the more disciplined organizations, but that’s because they weren’t prepared for that type of battle. The time spent in the GW2 world would alleviate that with all the more chaotic fighting that the humans have had to endure. Thanks to that they’d have a strategy to overcome possibly more powerful foes with superior tactics and maneuvering.

I don’t think the norns would stand a chance to win a war. Would they take out a huge chunk of the human’s forces, absolutely. But in the end they’d lose because they lack the structure required to win a war.

If it were a 1v1 set of battles, the norns would win, they have the prideful champions necessary. However we’re talking armies. Can you name the military positions of these champions?

As for where the battle takes place, I doubt it would come into play as the humans would know better than to go where they weren’t comfortable. I guess you could ask who the aggressor is, because they would likely be playing on the other’s turf, but even so, do you think the Anise would allow the humans to make mistakes on that scale? I doubt it. She’s a smart and scary lady.

Humans have experience fighting brutality, which is the advantage the Norns would have over them. The Humans have been fighting Charr forever, and it’s a similar advantage. While the charr were able to defeat them I think the Norn are wiser and don’t value victory above all else and feel there is more to life than fighting.

I can’t help but think that the war would end in a truce, likely with the Humans getting what they wanted, but the Norns being left alone to do what they wish aside from some requirements set by the humans.

Though on second though, I imagine the war would be over after a simple discussion. Humans -“we are taking this land for Kryta”
Norns-“sure, you deal with Jormag”
Humans-“Umm, how about we just call it Kryta?”
Norns-" How about we don’t and you just get the hell out of here!"
Humans-“… goodluck?”
Norns – “Thought so”

Norn duh. Humans would be too busy arguing and exchanging lies to take any action.

Ashen.2907:

Norn, individually, are no more physically powerful than humans. They lack discipline, organization, and an army.

Essentially it would be a fight between a human army and individual Norn. No contest, humans win.

Actually norn are, lore-wise, physically superior to humans in every possible way. They’re just ingame not that way for balance purposes. In fact they’ve actually even been shrunk since GW1 in order to make them playable.

The only playable race that could prove a physical match for a norn would be a charr.

Human because somehow the Queen has the funds and manpower to create an army of Doomsday Robots at the snap of a finger.