Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 is a brand new game its been out 3 months and a few days. I see some people starting threads to create controversy etc. All games specially MMO’s take time to sort out bugs, balancing etc. I know its not perfect but look at Guild Wars .. it took time there too. I see so many whining and complaining. This game is magnificent in so many ways so if you don’t like it why are you playing it ?? and most of all why are you here on this forum trying to stir up a hornets nest thats not there. Games are there to have fun so find the good in this one and have fun and if you can’t maybe find a new game.

I share your sentiments but what is certainly very characteristic of most youth today is a lack of a certain trod-upon virtue known as patience.

forget guild wars.. the gorilla in the playground (wow) took 1.5 YEARS to get even close to balance and fairness, especially with rogues, glitches (fear and blink through walls anyone?), and pet classes (aoe).

This game is doing far better in every way (except the pet classes).

Played WOW in it’s beta and solid through Burning Crusade. Many MMOs since then. I’m over the geargrind model and can smell it from a mile away. GW2 is an amazing game and step up from other MMOs in so many ways. Sadly it seems insistent that it must degenerate into the genre norm. Time’s gonna tell.

Vermillion Hawk.9037:

I share your sentiments but what is certainly very characteristic of most youth today is a lack of a certain trod-upon virtue known as patience.

Okay the “Youth” thing is getting old.

the so called “youth” you are tlaking about are right now between 20-30 years old, not the teenage boy’s who first played warcraft when it came out.

If you would do some reasearch,.. then you would have found out that there is a pr disaster going on.

you would find out that people have legitimate concerns, and that A-net is just saying “well though luck”.

Renquist.9530:

Okay the “Youth” thing is getting old.

I agree. One way to be able to safely dismiss someone’s arguments is to put them in the “young and don’t know better” category, even when it’s not the truth at all.

To answer the OP, it’s because yes things take time to perfect, but this is not ANet’s first time at the rodeo. They saw what worked in GW1 and they have put those ideas aside for new ideas, for better or worse.

People have different playstyles, so I’m not saying GW2 is a bad game at all! I don’t think the other complainers think so either. I think it’s a very good game. It’s just that it’s not what we expected, or we tired of it 6 years sooner than we did its predecessor, and we’re trying to figure out why.

Feel free to ignore these threads, it’s just some of us working it out.

Regarding the youth thing: why would it matter?

Judge a person on their arguments and articulation, and ignore irrelevant details such as age. Most parents will tell you that children can sometimes amaze you with insight.

Nymia.3256:

Regarding the youth thing: why would it matter?

Judge a person on their arguments and articulation, and ignore irrelevant details such as age. Most parents will tell you that children can sometimes amaze you with insight.

Exactly, bushing off someone because of their age is never a good idea. However, neither is trusting or believing someone who is older and should “know better”.

What I think is happening here is that at the Guild Wars 2 launch, many players were expecting the level of polish and routine they had grown accustomed to in that other game (the one with orcs and humans).

However, there are huge differences between the games:
1. That other game has had years and years to iron out all the bugs and glitches.
Guild Wars 2 has not had that long, and ArenaNet is scrambling to clear out the bugs, the imbalances, the potential exploits, and all other teething problems as soon as is humanly possible. Still, the players who graduated from that other game are not impressed, because they are not used to seeing ANY imperfections.
(By the way, did you know that it took many months for that other game to release its first PvP battleground? Before that, there was only dueling, and randomly harassing players of the other faction in open-world PvE.)

2. That other game has had years and years to teach their players exactly what to expect.
Guild Wars 2 is not that game, and if they deviate from the expectations given by that other game company (the one with a name like a snowstorm), some players may decide that they don’t like it, because it’s not like what they have been taught to like by that other game company.

3. That other game receives monthly earnings from all active players, and has a huge development and customer service budget.
Guild Wars 2 has a fixed budget for customer service, rather than a budget that depends on the number of active subscriptions. They cannot pamper their customers like that other game company does (like having their developers write a lore encyclopedia on their website, or building and maintaining an extremely expensive website for letting people show off their characters in 3D, or organizing a full-weekend convention dedicated to their game, or writing personalized responses to each and every in-game ticket).
These are things ArenaNet simply cannot offer with their chosen business model. Instead, they offer THE COMPLETE ACTUAL GAME (that is of outstanding quality)with NO MONTHLY SUBSCRIPTION. The rest of their services are decent, possibly good, but will never be VIP-state-of-the-art.
And people who are expected to be treated by VIPs by their gaming company will notice the difference in quality, and will complain. (“What? No forum avatars?”)

Back then Wow also got this many complains. The main difference is a few years back, there were alot less alternate MMOs/games than today. Wow could afford such problems as people don’t have as many choices to go to if they do not want Wow. GW2 no longer have that luxury.
As Diablo 3 and SWTOR have found out, once people quit a game they have so many other choices to go to that they may never ever need to return.

Arenanet no longer can afford to run the same way as it was a few years back.

I’m hoping ANet to be really working hard as they said to patch this game problems and issues the fast as they can. Because somethings are just wrong, and make players to not having fun while playing GW2….

It’s alot of Hopes, but if this game wants to be that sucess for years to come, it needs big changes in some areas. The game is already awesome, and people complain soo much because ANet promissed an revolution! That revolution, didn’t really happened, but I don’t know if they will make it happen in the near future of this MMO.

WoW did not shape my expectations for GW2, GW1 did.

Jornophelanthas.1475:

What I think is happening here is that at the Guild Wars 2 launch, many players were expecting the level of polish and routine they had grown accustomed to in that other game (the one with orcs and humans).

Actually it’s more like this:

Anet had 7 years of experience with GW1
Gw2 had been in development for something like the last 3 years of that
Features that existed at launch in GW2 are then ignored (Re-turning to a dungeon once you have been dc’d)
Features that existed in gw1, and that Anet specifically said they liked, and were quote: “Going to learn from” are used once and then forgotten about (PvP/PvE skill split)
Anet makes several blunders for things that they have already figured out how to avoid 5+ years ago. it’s tragic, and we’re going to call them out on it.

I dont think a majority of people care overly much about bugs and glitches with Dynamic events and even personal stories. Tyria is large, and bugs on launch are 100% expected and while perhaps not “accepted” plenty of people can justify or rationalize it.
Obnoxious? yes. But expected? Also yes.
The issue is when these problems take a much longer time to fix than is reasonable. For example the bugged arah events mean no player on the server can access the literal end dungeon, and cannot complete their story quest. This event is left bugged sometimes for weeks on end and has existed for well over 3 months now. While a fix to it might be harder to implement, simply resetting the map would have fixed the problem 9 times out of 10 (and I find it hard to believe that you cannot reset one map and only that map so as not to disturb gameplay elsewhere)

But people do certainly care about other bugs, like the ones involving the implementation of fractals. It’s inconceivable to think that Anet wasnt aware that you couldnt get back in, which means they deliberately pissed on 7-8 years of experience with MMO’s (including something that had become a standard inside their own bloody games!) just to rush out content that people can now currently not actually even enjoy because of an unforeseen issue with fractals disconnecting people.

As for balancing the classes, there have been plenty of skill changes focused entirely around either PvE or PvP, which ruins the skill for the other side of the equation. Take the elementalist whirlpool nerf. It was considered too strong because it could zone you away from a location on a PvP map, the damage was too much to ignore, and fighting in it was impossible without stability, so while the ele was defenseless, he could still make sure you couldnt engage him at that location. The nerf then came to its damage. But now in every situation where the zoning isnt important (read: every other situation in pvp and pve) whirlpool is now much worse off, especially in pve, in which the now lowered damage does often not justify the defenselessness (go whirlpool some risen in orr, they will not give a single crap about the damage, and will proceed to stick you with the pointy end of their spears) The biggest concern is that Anet is FULLY capable of splitting skills. They did it for the guardians, but now they wont touch it again, and each new patch brings skill changes that make very little sense to be applied to all scenario’s.

I think the worst thing about all of this is you. Yes you. Well, maybe not you specifically, but this whole “anti-whiner” movement. when people have criticisms they back up their criticisms or we tell them to gtfo. you can say “man this game sucks” but I will guarantee you that people will ask you what you didnt like and why. Most people who criticize the game bring up specific points about why, and what could have easily been done to assuage most concerns. On the other hand, the “anti-whiner” movement uses logical fallacies by the bucket-full and shuts down any criticism of their position with stereotyping (Anyone who doesnt like this game must just be a spoonfed WoW player! Or Young people these days have no patience!) and so on. It makes me sick. Criticism is important to any business, it lets you know how you are doing and what your fanbase wants to see. Sycophancy on the other hand helps no one.

Sorry if this seems harsh, but someone had to say it.

Can anyone name an MMO where a patch broke jumping? As in at no point during the QA testing of a patch pre-release did any of the testers press the space bar?

That goes beyond launch jitters.

It’s the same thing as Diablo 3.
All the people who were angry about always online DRM, or real-money auction-house, could just “go somewhere else,” as you’ve suggested. But people had spent tons of hours playing Diablo I and 2. It was a well loved game. They couldn’t just go somewhere else. Everyone knew what a trainwreck Star Wars Episode III was going to be. But people still went and saw it, because they were committed to the series.

So why are we still here, complaining? Because we were not told that Guild Wars 2 would feature vertical progression. Because we spent $60 dollars and lord-knows how many hours on this game. We have become invested in it, by money, time, and effort. Only now, has Anet finally decided to admit to pursuing Vertical Progression. And while we may hate what direction this game is taking, “walking out” sacrifices all of our former effort.
And there is no better game in town. This is an excellent MMORPG. That’s why we complain so loud. Because it was better before Ascended. The fractals are awesome, Agony is great (if it stays in the fractals), Halloween, the Karka, the new content, everything they’ve added post-launch is incredible.

I’ll be honest. If I had known Guild Wars 2 was going to feature vertical progression like every other MMO, I wouldn’t have bought it. But now, I’m here. I’ve seen how great the game is. I’m going to continue playing it, and enjoying it. But just because you enjoy something, doesn’t mean that its flawless. And this is a huge flaw. So we’ll continue to complain.

Zenyatoo.4059

Sorry if this seems harsh, but someone had to say it.

You have every right in pointing out flaws in the game, including things other people do not consider flaws, and I fully acknowledge that it has value, because it allows ArenaNet to improve the game, by learning from their mistakes.

But accusing me and others of sycophancy and logical fallacies goes too far for me. You disagree with my opinion. That’s fine. But that doesn’t mean that I’m wrong. Just that you think I might be. This doesn’t mean that I’m right, either. Just that I think I might be.

Opinions are not truths.

If you don’t like something in the game, you are free to state it. People may agree with you. Things might get changed as a result. But that doesn’t mean that because you or some other people don’t like X or Y about the game, that X or Y are automatically BAD and INTENTIONALLY implemented JUST to annoy everyone.
Instead, X or Y might be the result of human error, or a technical problem that we don’t understand, or perhaps even a deliberate decision to prevent problem Z (which we know nothing about because it never occurred).
You have your own logical fallacies. Like jumping to conclusions.

And do you honestly believe that screaming bloody murder is going to strengthen your case?
If you are in a restaurant, and your steak is too rare for your taste, what do you do?
Do you call a waiter or the chef to tell them that you are not enjoying your dish, and ask them for a solution (like a different steak, a hamburger instead, or your money back)?
Or do you stand up and start shouting to all customers that this is a bad restaurant because they can’t even make a simple steak, that you are insulted by their inability to cook, and that everyone else should be too? And do you argue with other customers, telling them that they are wrong for enjoying their steaks?
If you are eating out in this restaurant, which of these people do you want to have sitting at the table beside you?

Jornophelanthas.1475:

And do you honestly believe that screaming bloody murder is going to strengthen your case?
If you are in a restaurant, and your steak is too rare for your taste, what do you do?
Do you call a waiter or the chef to tell them that you are not enjoying your dish, and ask them for a solution (like a different steak, a hamburger instead, or your money back)?
Or do you stand up and start shouting to all customers that this is a bad restaurant because they can’t even make a simple steak, that you are insulted by their inability to cook, and that everyone else should be too? And do you argue with other customers, telling them that they are wrong for enjoying their steaks?
If you are eating out in this restaurant, which of these people do you want to have sitting at the table beside you?

There is a saying here the squeeky wheel gets the grease. Most have already tried pointing it out nicely. Call the waiter, tell him your order is wrong, and he says sorry he can understand you are fustrated and irritated but thats just life deal with it and walks away…. do you continue to go to that restraunt. At least the people that voice their concerns and stay playing the game are just trying to see if it will get any better before leaving permantly or just showing up for the events.

It really has nothing to do with impatience with a new game. GW2 had a tremendous amount of goodwill prior to 11/15/2012. Sure it had bugs and balance issues, but they were being sorted out. No Problem. The forums were relatively healthy prior to then with only complaints from some who bought a baseball and now want to play football with it, i.e., complaints that it wasn’t WoW.

Then, inexplicably, with the Lost Shores patch everything changed. At least everything I thought I knew about GW2. I, like many others, played WoW for years and I, too, can smell a gear grind. GW2, from the company that doesn’t make grindy games, became the mother of all grinders on 11/15/2012. The requirements of the initial pieces dwarfs the WoW grind in time and gold—no comparison. So, not only did they decide to change course, they went full steam ahead. So, OP, this is what’s happening, and we are all perplexed.

Sirge.8934:

Because we were not told that Guild Wars 2 would feature vertical progression.

Sure you were, just over a year ago when they talked about level cap increases.

Healix.5819:

Sirge.8934:

Because we were not told that Guild Wars 2 would feature vertical progression.

Sure you were, just over a year ago when they talked about level cap increases.

Increased character level =\= vertical progression or Gear grind.

If they follow the actual skill sistem, 10 more level dont justify a whole new set of items with new stats.
This is a misconception that if a game have a lvl 90 char, it must have lvl 90 equipment.

Why not complain. Things get done faster when you put effort in to tell who ever isn’t doing their job well the facts. If you buy something and it did not live up to your expectations, you can do nothing or you can do something about it.

WHY THE KITTENS WOULD YOU NOT TALK ABOUT THIS STUFF?

Jatari Thundercloud.3794:

Guild Wars 2 is a brand new game its been out 3 months and a few days. I see some people starting threads to create controversy etc. All games specially MMO’s take time to sort out bugs, balancing etc. I know its not perfect but look at Guild Wars .. it took time there too. I see so many whining and complaining. This game is magnificent in so many ways so if you don’t like it why are you playing it ?? and most of all why are you here on this forum trying to stir up a hornets nest thats not there. Games are there to have fun so find the good in this one and have fun and if you can’t maybe find a new game.

While I get what you’re saying and yes WoW took about 1.5 years to sort out the issues in it.

Not all the threads created are for contraversy there are plenty here that are real issues that affect end game. (which most of us have reached by now)

I reached end game rather quickly despite trying to take my time and do the things I like to do rather then what most do to rush thru the game.

Most of the problems are end game oriented and only start after you ding level 80 and they are pretty big glaring issues.

Engineering alone hasn’t had it’s bugs fixed since Launch. So when you see people complaining we aren’t all just complaining to complain we are letting the devs know their customers are not happy and why.

If I had known they would churn out vertical progression I would never have bothered.
If I had known they would drop the drop rates to nothing at level 80 I would have never bothered bought the game.
If I had known they would make the game dungeon focused I would have never bought the game.

Rynarx.6124:

Back then Wow also got this many complains. The main difference is a few years back, there were alot less alternate MMOs/games than today. Wow could afford such problems as people don’t have as many choices to go to if they do not want Wow. GW2 no longer have that luxury.
As Diablo 3 and SWTOR have found out, once people quit a game they have so many other choices to go to that they may never ever need to return.

Arenanet no longer can afford to run the same way as it was a few years back.

This

But what also perplexes me is that every MMO developers seems to have the need to reinvent the wheel and subsequently have to make the same mistakes all others have made. Is it arrogance? Is it naivety? Why doesn’t any developer learn from the past?

Downright whining and genuine, backed-up complaints are actually a good sign. It’s a sign that the game is good enough to make people care about it and its direction and voice their opinion, instead of just walking away. They WANT to like the game again. But yeah, i agree that a little patience is in order.

Renquist.9530:

Vermillion Hawk.9037:

I share your sentiments but what is certainly very characteristic of most youth today is a lack of a certain trod-upon virtue known as patience.

Okay the “Youth” thing is getting old.

the so called “youth” you are tlaking about are right now between 20-30 years old, not the teenage boy’s who first played warcraft when it came out.

If you would do some reasearch,.. then you would have found out that there is a pr disaster going on.

you would find out that people have legitimate concerns, and that A-net is just saying “well though luck”.

I’m not talking about physical youth.

Jornophelanthas.1475:

If you are eating out in this restaurant, which of these people do you want to have sitting at the table beside you?

Im snipping your quote because I envision some walls of text incoming and there’s a limit to how large forum posts can be.

For starters, yes you did use logical fallacies. Lets start shall we?

The main one you are using is called False Dichotomy. Basically it means you’re stripping down an argument to two specific sides. In your post you regularly make references to a single other MMO, claiming that those people who have issue with this game must “be used to how they were treated elsewhere” or “Have been taught differently by that other game company”.

The concern is that there are plenty of other MMO’s who have examples of doing something far better than Anet does. It’s not simply “This game isnt like WoW I hate it” it’s “Anet is doing silly things, and I will point out examples of other MMO’s getting it done right so maybe Anet will follow suit”

Specifically stating that arguments against Anet are coming only from players from WoW, and not for any other reason (Such as the fact that some of Anets solutions are objectively terrible) is a logical fallacy.

Secondly, Non-Sequitur
You assume because I said you were being a scyophant that you must be incorrect, or that my opinion must be correct. This is untrue. Im pointing out that You seem ruthlessly devoted to defending Anet from criticism, specifically by insulting those who criticize it, rather than defend Anets actions.

For example, you could have taken common grievances:
RNG
Disconnections/ inability to reconnect
The flub up with the karka boxes not getting sent to people who actually dc’d, but getting mailed to those who willingly avoided, or already attended the event
and so on.

Then argue against those points specifically. If you make a solid case for why RNG is a good or adequate system, you would be stating your opinion and making a solid argument. Instead you have elected to ignore common gripes, to tunnel-vision that of small bugs with the game, then compare it to a singular MMO, which you then dismiss as essentially fanboyism.

Your claim that “Opinions arent truths” Is correct. However, could you with a straight face say that not being able to get back into fractals if you DC is an opinionated issue? I think most would agree that not being able to get back in is objectively bad. So we have an issue. The question then becomes, does Anet deserve any sympathy regarding this issue? Here is where the opinion comes in, but to me the answer is no. Despite GW2 being a new game, re-connecting after a disconnect has been an industry standard for years. It’s something they worked out in GW1, and even launch of GW2. Rushing out content and ignoring a blatant flaw like this was a terrible move, and they deserve no sympathy.

Moving on
“Do you believe screaming Bloody murder will strengthen your case”
Not really. But I dont need it to.
Take your example. The steak is too rare. This is bad. (It’s considered objectively bad in this case because I am the sole consumer of the steak, and my subjective tastes regarding it are all that currently matters)

So I tell the chef to cook it a little more.
The chef then ignores me for 3 months.
So I decide to post a bulletin somewhere near the restaurant saying that if your steak comes back not to your liking the chef will ignore you forever. My bad review may prompt the chef to actually get off his kitten and cook my steak, and thus everyone wins. I get a cooked steak, other patrons also receive better service, and the business thrives again.

You’re quite literally asking us not to complain. Despite complaints being the only way to get problems noticed and fixed. (having sent in countless tickets about bugs that were effecting me, fixes were long in coming, or still have not come. Several of the issues would have been quite literally 15 minute fixes.Do you know when it did get fixed? When we made a forum post about it, and got 20+ responses. It was fixed by the next patch.)

So no, screaming bloody murder doesnt strengthen a position. But no one is screaming bloody murder. We’re stating our cases, asking for fixes, and when they are not coming, we’re pointing them out for everyone to see, on the chance that Anet realizes that it’s worth fixing it rather than ignoring it.

I’ve worked as a GM/Dev on an MMO before. And I can say will all certainty that the fastest way to get something fixed is to make it an inconvenience for it to not be fixed. And the easiest way to do that is to get as many people to see it in a public location (like the forums) and have them agree loudly that it needs to be fixed. Maybe you can think it a bad practice, but it works, and it works much faster than alternatives.