Guild Wars 2

to create a player mob, nearly a market police which ruins almost every game which has unique concepts and visions at launch. I’ve seen it so many times over the years.

They come, invade and demand, why don’t you have a dungeon finder, we need a recount, we want this, we want that, this class needs that, otherwise this game sucks badly.

They powerlevel to end level in days, leaving most of the content aside and then standing there saying, guys where is the end level content, I want to progress. I have nothing to do. We need more content, what WvWvW I do not want that, I want content.

When the initial community proposes, guys it wasn’t meant this way, they say, you don’t have to play the game, if you do not like what we want.

In the end they get what they want, getting content which they accomplish again in days and so on, in the end complaining that it is just another WoW clone, only worse, and go back where they came from, leaving the game in ruins.

Well done, makes wonder every time again.

it started with eq and daoc, wow simply refined and perfected the paradigm.

although i blame the regular CBT NDA testers that populate every single games’ NDA CBT player testing more than i blame greedy dev CEOs and exec producers chomping at the bit to succeed and win the wow prize by doing exactly the same thing as the 20 previous failures have done withotu deviation. since they can when faced by the fact their efforts have resulted in utter ruin and become the objects of ljokes longer lived than any thing on their resumes, can simply look at teh CBT players and say"this is the feedback we got from players like you. it is not our fault, this is what YOU guys wanted".

the mmo genre is ourobouros as a hydra.

We are products of our environment.

The games you mentioned are designed to keep people paying a subscription fee every month; thus keep playing as much and as long as possible. This involves some questionable behavioral conditioning practices. The result of this behavioral conditioning is that they created the beast. The beast did not exist before the inception of MMORPG’s; it was created as a result of the behavioral conditioning.

Everyone can be mad at the companies all they want, but the fact of the matter is that the market shifts to where the money is if the company is competent.

So, if the money is in appeasing the demographic that WoW players inhabit, then the games will continue to be more like WoW.

The only 100% sure fire way to ensure that this stops is simple: Stop giving companies your money.

Seriously. It is quite literally the only way it will happen.

To be honest, I think what Blizzard managed to do with WOW is something that no other company will ever manage to create in a long time rom now on.

It’s simple as that. As much as how old WOW is, how boring as it may seem, how cartoon-ish it is etc. WOW will always and I mean ALWAYS be that ‘’old chevy’’ o’ MMOs. Always.

Bluebird.1890:

Everyone can be mad at the companies all they want, but the fact of the matter is that the market shifts to where the money is if the company is competent.

So, if the money is in appeasing the demographic that WoW players inhabit, then the games will continue to be more like WoW.

The only 100% sure fire way to ensure that this stops is simple: Stop giving companies your money.

Seriously. It is quite literally the only way it will happen.

Here’s a blast from the past. 2007, to be exact.

Jeff Strain, Co-Founder of ANet: How to Create a Successful MMO

Even more than the Manifesto, this is the document that cemented my enthusiasm for ArenaNet. This was from the perspective of an MMO dev talking to other devs and hopefuls, and it outlines precisely why I always used to like ANet so much from a philosophical perspective; I’d read their dev statements, and constantly think, these guys get it. Here’s a few particularly relevant quotes.

“It can be a daunting proposition to willfully walk away from what seems to be a “sure thing” in game design, but lack of differentiation is probably the number one reason that MMOs fail, so we all need to leave the comfort zone and start innovating, or risk creating yet another “me too” MMO."

“According to James Phinney, lead designer of StarCraft and Guild Wars, every great game starts with one question: “What do I want to play next?”. This may seem an obvious statement, but his point is that designers are often asked to make a game that is specifically designed to be “better” than a successful game from a competitor, rather than making a game that is exciting and new. How many designers have been asked to make a “GTA killer”, or a “Guitar Hero killer”, or a “WoW killer”? I personally have heard numerous designers and producers working on unreleased MMO projects describe their game in these terms: “It’s like WoW, but…” I just shake my head when I hear this, because the team that is best poised to deliver a successful game that is an evolution of WoW is… well, the WoW team. They’ve got their thing, and they’re good at it. Let’s all carve out our own thing, and be the best at it. Truly great games are made by passionate teams who are on fire with the notion of changing the industry. If you are aiming at a competitor rather than aiming to make something fresh and innovative, you’ve lost."

“As a general rule, be nice to your players! With each generation of MMOs, players become less tolerant of being forced to spend time resting after battles to restore health, onerous consequences for dying, the length of time required to level up and reach the mid-game, and high failure rates for activities such as crafting. Early MMOs could be “meaner” because there were fewer choices, but today players have options, so be nice to them."

“Don’t design an MMO around the assumption that players are a “type” of gamer. I often hear developers discussing whether an individual is a roleplayer, or a PvP player, or a solo player. Our belief is that while you can certainly find players who exclusively fall into one category, most players dabble in everything. It is tempting to believe that because a player is playing an MMO, and because good MMOs are social games, every player must therefore like to play with other players in a group. Our experience with Guild Wars is that this is an erroneous and dangerous assumption. On any given day, a player may want to play with his guild, or he may want to play with his best friend, or he may want to play alone. The fact that he is playing in a large communal environment is not a predictor of how he wants to play. We should be striving to make games that let you play how you want to play right now, and offer you the flexibility to progress with any combination of players you like."

I could go on, but really, just read the article.

Bluebird.1890:

Everyone can be mad at the companies all they want, but the fact of the matter is that the market shifts to where the money is if the company is competent.

So, if the money is in appeasing the demographic that WoW players inhabit, then the games will continue to be more like WoW.

The only 100% sure fire way to ensure that this stops is simple: Stop giving companies your money.

Seriously. It is quite literally the only way it will happen.

As much as I hate the gear treadmill, I have to agree with you. Everyone that buys a game that has a gear treadmill in it just makes every developer after that say hey, it’s a money maker and they add it.

Granted GW2 advertised as having no treadmill and that was a selling point for me, but since they have now added it I am speaking with my wallet. I have received a refund on 1 account, have put in for a refund on my second account, my fiancé has done the same as well as the friends that came to this game with us.

Bluebird.1890:

So, if the money is in appeasing the demographic that WoW players inhabit, then the games will continue to be more like WoW.

The thing is, there isn’t so much money in that.

SW:TOR failed. Vanguard failed, Fury failed, Aion failed in the West, Age of Conan and Warhammer Online and Lord of the Rings Online have had very poor performances, and so on.

WoW clones are not major hits. Not a single one has been even slightly close to the success of WoW.

I was hoping the failure of TOR would be enough to make game designers see how making WoW clones is more often than not a recipe for failure, but apparently it wasn’t.

The thing is, the damage to the playerbase has already been done. The mental conditioning require to accept playing WoW has already created a “MMO player” who is not going to accept anything other than WoW. The only solution for the MMO genre now is either to create something different (which we know now to not work), or to rot and burn.

Managers are silly. They see the 12~ million WoW fans, and are like “wow, i want that market”.

Fact is, 12-15 million is pretty much everyone who likes threadmills, infinite grind, and thinks numbers going up on a character sheet is awesome among people willing to shell 60 bucks on a new game.

WoW, SWTOR, Rift…they share a player base, and it is only a small fraction of the gaming community (just look at League of Legends to see what happens when you’re not targeting a niche…). Any game trying to copy EQ or WoW is just cannibalizing from the others who tried the same.

GW2 was after an even smaller, but -separate- subset of players. They could get 1-2 million people without fighting with the other games.

And they they changed their mind i guess…

Bluebird.1890:

Granted GW2 advertised as having no treadmill and that was a selling point for me, but since they have now added it I am speaking with my wallet. I have received a refund on 1 account, have put in for a refund on my second account, my fiancé has done the same as well as the friends that came to this game with us.

This makes me more frustrated. I have been reading more posts here and elsewhere where people have received refunds. Unless you repurchase the game, that means you are gone for good. I never met you but you and others like you were at least like-minded players. Those of us who purchased the game because we believed in its core tenets/features. Now you are leaving. What type of player will be left in this game?

Will it still be heavily populated with people who just love playing the game for fun?

or will it be dominated by those who make it feel like work? (e.g. dungeons practice mandatory, cannot participate unless you have TierXX gear, why did you miss the guild run last night? where have you been lately, your participation is too low so you are demoted? noob? and so on and so on)

Bluebird.1890:

Everyone can be mad at the companies all they want, but the fact of the matter is that the market shifts to where the money is if the company is competent.

So, if the money is in appeasing the demographic that WoW players inhabit, then the games will continue to be more like WoW.

The only 100% sure fire way to ensure that this stops is simple: Stop giving companies your money.

Seriously. It is quite literally the only way it will happen.

The WoW market is an already crowded marketplace. Catering to the WoW demographic might ensure some short term money, but it also ensures mediocrity and the lack of a huge hit.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with targeting a niche market that has little competition, from a company perspective. Apologists act as if a company has a moral obligation to target the biggest audience. This is simply not true.

I think you are overlooking viral marketing.
Who hasn’t been in a new game and saw it compared to “that” game nonstop.
There is a certain gaming forum that puts anyone down that doesn’t praise “that” game. They let posts for “that” game stay in general discussions but any other game discussion threads get booted into their own forum. The sub forums exist as a place to segregate what isn’t popular. Even the supposedly non-biased perception outlets dip into a little pushing of who pays for the most ads and that isn’t the indie devs. This doesn’t even count people that are paid to be viral posters.

Games that try to compete with the behemoths keep trying to snatch some of their mechanics in hopes that things are not foreign to new entrants or that they follow the old goals that they had encouraging a seamless transition.

What is being overlooked is that there are a large group of players out there that don’t want the norm. We saw it in the population with shows taking off like Family Guy and Aqua Teen Hunger Force while the sitcoms with the normals kept dropping rank. Oh my, another fat guy with a pretty girl sitcom, there’s a new one we haven’t seen and frankly, no one is looking forward to so they switched the channel.

My thoughts on progression is that it needs to be done in a way that is player generated. Until companies get their noggins around that they won’t “get” past the old problem that players can always consume quicker than they can produce.

I have my own ideas and have now decided to take my 4 notebooks and make that game. All the companies have been letting us down so why not. What have I got to lose. I know me, I know others like me and I can hire someone to write the lore. I had a grand plan of making a better search engine but that can wait, ddg is doing ok as a one person outfit already. What I’m getting at is that if you find yourself complaining too much then you need to find a solution. I see this as the solution, if they won’t we will fill the gap for them. The best part is that I have little competition, because they all want to remake “that game” so keep on keepin’ on with your trending.

Fortuna.7259:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with targeting a niche market that has little competition, from a company perspective. Apologists act as if a company has a moral obligation to target the biggest audience. This is simply not true.

Selling 300,000 sandwiches to customers who never come back is the same revenue as selling 100 sandwiches a day to customers who come back daily for a year.
except after that year, with the latter model, you still have customers coming back regularly. sure, 300,000 a day would be even better, but it’s unrealistic.

Especially when half a block away there’s an existing sandwich shop that most of those 300,000 frequent daily.

Find your audience, find your customers. First keep them, then find more if you can — but offering something to people they can get nowhere else keeps you afloat and is much better than chasing after someone else’s business model.

Hell look at Apple. They had a niche market (HAVE a niche market). They’re not exactly abandoning their ideology to chase after a larger market share by emulating Microsoft, they’re making a quality product some people love and letting that quality speak for itself. .. and I say that as someone who doesn’t like Apple, won’t buy their stuff. It’s still good stuff, just not my kind of stuff.

I certainly would never suggest Apple abandon their business model, alienate their customers who DO like it, and try to woo me to their side by providing a product that’s functionally identical to one I already own and enjoy. Aside from it just not working like that, I’d feel bad for the people who do like their products, who got tossed out in the cold because hey, they’re already customers who cares, let’s try and change everything they like so maybe someone else will like us too.

I never actually played WoW myself but from what I learned from forums and rl friends who play(ed) it, WoW was just at the right place at the right time. They had the will to make something exciting and the longevity to make it work. People believed them.

Ever since WoW, other companies have fallen in the same trap. They saw WoW as the mold for a MMO. Either by copying or wanting to be different from it. And they all failed to measure up, because they made the same mistakes. At best, new games had one or two things that were different but it was still a similar experience and none of these companies has had the will to support their own ideas, even through tough times.

Oddly, most MMO makers are not using long term strategies. It requires an investment nobody is willing to make as it is already expensive enough.

So, Anet had a chance to do something different but they have now buckled and bowed to the MMO stigma’s that exist.

It’s like Hollywood. Movies are made based on standard ingredients and even actors. Guys like Will Smith and Tom Cruise are paid millions to do the same tricks all over again, because this way they will get people to come to the cinema’s. But how many movies of actual quality, that really make an impact come from Hollywood?

It’s not all bad but nothing is really great. And the MMO world is the same way. So Anet could’ve at least given a nudge in a differen direction, but it failed. Perhaps it couldn’t be helped and they really wanted to give that nudge, but reality is that small as this step may seem, it opens the door to the same ole MMO experience and that’s a shame.

warmonkey.8013:

I certainly would never suggest Apple abandon their business model, alienate their customers who DO like it, and try to woo me to their side by providing a product that’s functionally identical to one I already own and enjoy. Aside from it just not working like that, I’d feel bad for the people who do like their products, who got tossed out in the cold because hey, they’re already customers who cares, let’s try and change everything they like so maybe someone else will like us too.

This is so spot on when you think about the people that come in here and demand that GW2 become more like other games. It’s pretty insulting to the already existing customers.

Ragman.1690:

In the end they get what they want, getting content which they accomplish again in days and so on, in the end complaining that it is just another WoW clone

This. This ennerves me so much, people looking for a game and actively comparing said game to WoW, suggesting the game implements as many design principles from WoWlikes, then complains it’s a WoW clone. God how daft can you be. :s

Gehenna.3625:

I never actually played WoW myself but from what I learned from forums and rl friends who play(ed) it, WoW was just at the right place at the right time. They had the will to make something exciting and the longevity to make it work. People believed them.

At its dawn it was also a pretty darn good game for its time. Definatly not an extremely tedious gear threadmill it is now. Fair enough it had gear progression but it was more then just a threadmill, the content was genuinly fun and challenging.
I’d go as far as to say the pve in vanilla WoW was a lot more challenging then GW2 is, it was great infact before the expansions.

In all honesty its time to leave these forums to those that want this"progression" .
The “I want mores” can plead for all they want, I wont be asking for a refund (ive invested time into 3 lvl 80 chars), I will still check here occasionally just to see if they get what they want, but i do think its time for us all to move on and let those that are enjoying play.. lets see what happens in 3mths time, but lets do it from a distance.

What is being posted now wont make Anet change their minds, but when everyone has their little “shiny’s” and they all move on maybe, I say maybe because I can dream, Anet will realize what actually made people play one of their games for 7yrs is not the sequel they created.

All I would like is something posted, a video stating what their agenda for GW2 is, so more people like myself are not suckered into buying something that bears no resemblance to what was promised.

You can all make your point by not logging in here or into game.

I personally have heard numerous designers and producers working on unreleased MMO projects describe their game in these terms: “It’s like WoW, but…” I just shake my head when I hear this, because the team that is best poised to deliver a successful game that is an evolution of WoW is… well, the WoW team. They’ve got their thing, and they’re good at it.

Thanks for that quote. I knew I had read something like that somewhere. It really is the truth. As much as people around here disparage WoW it is as big as it is because it’s good at what it does.