Guild Wars 2

I realize broken trust is a very difficult thing to fix, but it can be done. CCP has managed it. ANET can do it. And, let’s face it: most of us would prefer to continue playing GW2 if at all possible, and would prefer to be able to eventually trust ANET again, if we have a means of being involved and keeping an eye on ANET in the future so that they do not spring this kind of game-breaking change on us in the future.

(1) I suggest that first, ANET must make Ascended gear equivalent in stats to Exotics, make exotics upgradeable to bear the additional Agony infusion, and make infusions only add an agony statistic. Infusions must be available to be acquired game-wide (WvW, crafting, events, etc.) This will make “agony” a completely horizontal mechanic. IOW, Ascended gear will be nothing more than a cosmetic item you can only acquire in the Fractals, and “agony stats” something only necessary to – eventually – get a full set of Ascended gear.

This will allow players with exotics to equally participate fully in Fractals by additionally infusing their exotics with agony stats, or allow players to gradually move through Fractals without getting exotics by getting their Ascended gear piecemeal as they go. Exotics and Ascended will then be equivalent stat armors that can be achieved via different means.

This must be done first as a sign of good faith.

(2) ANET must set up a player advocate system where they communicate their developmental intentions as they progress and where they get input from the player base (like CCP has). This must be accompanied by a log-in polling system, the wording of which must be approved by the player advocates. They must agree to be fully transparent and co-operative with the fan base via this advocate system.

(3) ANET must issue an apology for this debacle and affirm its intent to stay true to the manifesto and original game design in the future and never let this happen again.

(4) ANET must terminate or reassign those who initiated this violation of the manifesto and 5 years of media and 7 years of good faith earned by GW1 and install (or reinstall) personnel who are committed to the original design philosophy.

Another person who doesn’t understand business. Amd terminate someone because you disagree with a added gear tier and new dungeon ? Do you know how silly that sounds ? Might want to build a bridge and get over it .

ckeeton.4907:

Another person who doesn’t understand business. Amd terminate someone because you disagree with a added gear tier and new dungeon ? Do you know how silly that sounds ? Might want to build a bridge and get over it .

I understand business; if this negative publicity hurts them enough, and if the loss of cash shop sales hurts them enough, they’ll have to address it. That’s “business”. I’m outlining a means by which they can address it – successfully, and perhaps turn this entire debacle into something positive for the company.

Lol negative publicity. It’s only this forum that can’t handle an optional gear addition and new dungeon. Seriously get over it dude

Nothing will change. Like it or not.
Only thing you can do right now is decide whether you want to keep playing or not but don’t expect them to talk about this whole thing or change it – It’s just not gonna happen that much is clear at this point.
I’m guessing they’ll try to sweep this under the carpet.

Because outside of this forum everyone likes it so have fun being the minority

I don’t see why they need to lower ascended gear. People keep acting like this is the end of the world. How exactly? They added a single new tier, it’s still capped at a clearly visible ceiling just like it was before, just slightly higher than the previous one. And as they explained (if any of the doomsayers ever listened) this new tier will allow customization for higher level content, effectively creating a new ceiling that allows for the horizontal progression that was promised, whereas the previous ceiling was nothing but vertical progression with a hard cap. And aren’t these same people the ones that were whining only two weeks ago that there wasn’t enough customization in the game? Hypocritical much?

If they never add another tier will people still claim that they are making a korean grind MMO? Probably, even though there isn’t any evidence they are.

@Ckeeton There is negative publicity outside of this forum. I will not relink the articles because they are in other posts. Sites are calling Arenanet out on its reversal of its core design.

OP I agree with everything except the termination part. Sometimes people are directed to do things even if they do not agree. They should not be punished for following a management directive. Now if the top executives who have been with the company for years authorized this, then removal might be an option. However, again, I would respect them more if they simply made the other changes you listed and issued an apology.

Sadly, this is not going to happen. Because they will take a “wait and see” approach. If cash shop sales severely drop off, then they will make a change. It just may not be the changes you listed. It all depends on who is pushing this within their organization. Some leaders make decisions simply based on ego. Even if stats say their decision was wrong, ego will tell them not to change it.

Who the kitten do you think you are!? Are you seriously suggesting terminating employees because YOU disagree with ingame changes!? Thats just offensive!

Conncept.7638:

They added a single new tier, it’s still capped at a clearly visible ceiling just like it was before, just slightly higher than the previous one.

This made me laugh.

Also if an employee violates a company policy, that can result in termination (in any company). Just because this is the game industry doesn’t make it less valid. If the “Manifesto” was a company policy, then clearly there are some violations in progress.

It’s offensive and really rude

Nahilas.4319:

Who the kitten do you think you are!? Are you seriously suggesting terminating employees because YOU disagree with ingame changes!? Thats just offensive!

They lied to us!!! And we are not idiots like rest of you, someone has to pay! I’m only sorry cause i can’t get money back from my country

Paying (about) $55 for a game does not buy ownership of the game company, and does not entitle one to make game design or business decisions. Least of all, it does not entitle one to take away somebody’s livelihood.

One forum post is not negative publicity.
Opinion is not fact.
Not even mine.

juno.1840:

Conncept.7638:

They added a single new tier, it’s still capped at a clearly visible ceiling just like it was before, just slightly higher than the previous one.

This made me laugh.

Also if an employee violates a company policy, that can result in termination (in any company). Just because this is the game industry doesn’t make it less valid. If the “Manifesto” was a company policy, then clearly there are some violations in progress.

Glad to add some mirth to your day, but if you have any real proof of your claims that vertical progression will continually be added, then how about you show it? Otherwise, your case is baseless.

But as things are, there is a hard cap, and the jump from the second highest tier to the highest is now lower than it was. What you find humorous doesn’t matter next to those facts you seem intent to ignore in your blind accusations.

There is no debacle, its not the end of the game as we know it, just get over it.

Jornophelanthas.1475:

Paying (about) $55 for a game does not buy ownership of the game company, and does not entitle one to make game design or business decisions. Least of all, it does not entitle one to take away somebody’s livelihood.

Opinion is not fact.

That’s about the most sane thing I’ve read on these forums yet, thank you.

People calling for terminations really shows how dumb this whole thing is and that the people who supposedly care about the game don’t care at all and are being selfish

Well this is the first time I post since the beginning of the event.
I had foreseen how ascended could be implemented and was waiting to see how it turns. I am sad about how the only MMO which was FUNNY is changing its policy.

But I think there is nothing to do, the only thing we can do is wait and see how the game will become a failure like SWTOR. The only think I’m pretty sure is the damage has already been done and the community has lost its confidence in Anet.

The game is yours now hardcore players, so enjoy the emptiness of maps without the impressive number of fanboys that had pleasure in this game.

Why because I’m not a constant whiner and complainer ? I’m not the one calling for terminations because I disagree with a decision you guys are so sit down

Terminations should be a last resort for a failed strategy. In my post, I said that I hate when employees are punished for doing what their management approved and directed.

However, I know where the OP was going with the termination statement. I can only speak to Corporate America since that is where my experience lies. Companies do terminate people including executives for failed strategies – business, marketing, product strategies. I will not provide details less the company is identified but our CEO was recently terminated. Those close to situation said it was because of low stock performance and a failed strategic direction. Again, will not go into details. I personally liked that person and their vision but often, someone is the scapegoat when investors and board members are dissatisfied.

For this situation, I hope that they do not terminate anyone. Just restore the game to its original core design vision.

Man the new dungeons are really, really fun. That’s all I gotta say.

Manifesto : “A public declaration of aims…”

Lie: “To lie is to deliver a false statement to another person which the speaking person knows is not the whole truth, intentionally.”

An aim is a target, a goal, not a fact.

The arena net manifesto was delivered in 2011. There is nothing to suggest that Ascended items where in development at this point, so it cannot be a false statement delivered unintentionally.

Arena Net by those definitions didn’t lie to anybody.

They did however pull an about turn on some of the design decisions for the game. Something of this magnitude is not the work of an individual or group of individuals, it would have been a company decision.

Suggesting that somebody should be fired for it is beyond rude and ridiculous. This isn’t the BBC or a bank, we don’t need a scapegoat.

A clear and concise deceleration of intent in regards to the games development would be nice, but they are by no means obliged to tell you what they are planning.

Stop whining its getting old,

ckeeton.4907:

Stop whining its getting old,

How about you stopping telling others what they should or should not do?

There is more than a good cause for alarm here, but I guess some fails to see that the Titanic has hit the Iceberg and are fine, just listening to the band playing on while the ship sinks……

Nah there isn’t you’re just blowing it out of proportion

ckeeton.4907:

Nah there isn’t you’re just blowing it out of proportion

Enjoy the music…. ;O)

Enjoy the whining over something so stupid . Wow

Conncept.7638:

juno.1840:

Conncept.7638:

They added a single new tier, it’s still capped at a clearly visible ceiling just like it was before, just slightly higher than the previous one.

This made me laugh.

Glad to add some mirth to your day, but if you have any real proof of your claims that vertical progression will continually be added, then how about you show it? Otherwise, your case is baseless.

But as things are, there is a hard cap, and the jump from the second highest tier to the highest is now lower than it was. What you find humorous doesn’t matter next to those facts you seem intent to ignore in your blind accusations.

Your drama aside (I don’t recall acusing anyone of anything), I could just as easily say “can you provide proof that vertical progression will not be added?”

History in GW2 has one more level of vertical progression added (ascended). I think history is against your position so far.

juno.1840:

Conncept.7638:

juno.1840:

Conncept.7638:

They added a single new tier, it’s still capped at a clearly visible ceiling just like it was before, just slightly higher than the previous one.

This made me laugh.

Glad to add some mirth to your day, but if you have any real proof of your claims that vertical progression will continually be added, then how about you show it? Otherwise, your case is baseless.

But as things are, there is a hard cap, and the jump from the second highest tier to the highest is now lower than it was. What you find humorous doesn’t matter next to those facts you seem intent to ignore in your blind accusations.

Your drama aside (I don’t recall acusing anyone of anything), I could just as easily say “can you provide proof that vertical progression will not be added?”

History in GW2 has one more level of vertical progression added (ascended). I think history is against your position so far.

Innocent until proven guilty, and you agreed with the OP, who made exactly that accusation. Or did you not bother to read before posting?

Conncept.7638:

juno.1840:

Conncept.7638:

juno.1840:

Conncept.7638:

They added a single new tier, it’s still capped at a clearly visible ceiling just like it was before, just slightly higher than the previous one.

This made me laugh.

Glad to add some mirth to your day, but if you have any real proof of your claims that vertical progression will continually be added, then how about you show it? Otherwise, your case is baseless.

But as things are, there is a hard cap, and the jump from the second highest tier to the highest is now lower than it was. What you find humorous doesn’t matter next to those facts you seem intent to ignore in your blind accusations.

Your drama aside (I don’t recall acusing anyone of anything), I could just as easily say “can you provide proof that vertical progression will not be added?”

History in GW2 has one more level of vertical progression added (ascended). I think history is against your position so far.

Innocent until proven guilty, and you agreed with the OP, who made exactly that accusation.

One more tier of vertical progression was added — guilty.

dalendria.3762:

@Ckeeton There is negative publicity outside of this forum. I will not relink the articles because they are in other posts. Sites are calling Arenanet out on its reversal of its core design.

OP I agree with everything except the termination part. Sometimes people are directed to do things even if they do not agree. They should not be punished for following a management directive. Now if the top executives who have been with the company for years authorized this, then removal might be an option. However, again, I would respect them more if they simply made the other changes you listed and issued an apology.

Sadly, this is not going to happen. Because they will take a “wait and see” approach. If cash shop sales severely drop off, then they will make a change. It just may not be the changes you listed. It all depends on who is pushing this within their organization. Some leaders make decisions simply based on ego. Even if stats say their decision was wrong, ego will tell them not to change it.

I’m not calling for every dev that had a hand in programming this to be terminated or reassigned, only those that initiated this drastic change and were responsible for green-lighting it.

Pants.8315:

Manifesto : “A public declaration of aims…”

Lie: “To lie is to deliver a false statement to another person which the speaking person knows is not the whole truth, intentionally.”

An aim is a target, a goal, not a fact.

The arena net manifesto was delivered in 2011. There is nothing to suggest that Ascended items where in development at this point, so it cannot be a false statement delivered unintentionally.

Arena Net by those definitions didn’t lie to anybody.

They did however pull an about turn on some of the design decisions for the game. Something of this magnitude is not the work of an individual or group of individuals, it would have been a company decision.

Suggesting that somebody should be fired for it is beyond rude and ridiculous. This isn’t the BBC or a bank, we don’t need a scapegoat.

A clear and concise deceleration of intent in regards to the games development would be nice, but they are by no means obliged to tell you what they are planning.

Colin Johanson reiterated the vision statement in September of this year. Content of this magnitude doesn’t get created in a couple of months. Either Johanson didn’t know what the live team was planning, or he is guilty of deliberately misleading hundreds of thousands of customers while GW2 was launching.

Jornophelanthas.1475:

Paying (about) $55 for a game does not buy ownership of the game company, and does not entitle one to make game design or business decisions. Least of all, it does not entitle one to take away somebody’s livelihood.

One forum post is not negative publicity.
Opinion is not fact.
Not even mine.

Perhaps you’re unware of the 10,000 + post thread here? This is not “one post in a forum”.

BTW, purchasing the game and buying $120 worth of gems based on their stated commitment to uphold a fundamental design philosophy gives me the right to state my displeasure and offer up a means of correcting what I see as a huge mistake.

juno.1840:

Conncept.7638:

juno.1840:

Conncept.7638:

juno.1840:

Conncept.7638:

They added a single new tier, it’s still capped at a clearly visible ceiling just like it was before, just slightly higher than the previous one.

This made me laugh.

Glad to add some mirth to your day, but if you have any real proof of your claims that vertical progression will continually be added, then how about you show it? Otherwise, your case is baseless.

But as things are, there is a hard cap, and the jump from the second highest tier to the highest is now lower than it was. What you find humorous doesn’t matter next to those facts you seem intent to ignore in your blind accusations.

Your drama aside (I don’t recall acusing anyone of anything), I could just as easily say “can you provide proof that vertical progression will not be added?”

History in GW2 has one more level of vertical progression added (ascended). I think history is against your position so far.

Innocent until proven guilty, and you agreed with the OP, who made exactly that accusation.

One more tier of vertical progression was added — guilty.

Then we should all just stay at level 1 with no gear, because any progression at all is ANet breaking it’s word?

ckeeton.4907:

Lol negative publicity. It’s only this forum that can’t handle an optional gear addition and new dungeon. Seriously get over it dude

Huh? I’ve already seen articles on MMO websites about the problem described and in other gaming forums more active than this one. Just because you haven’t been to Argentina it doesn’t mean the people there don’t exist.

Conncept.7638:

juno.1840:

Conncept.7638:

juno.1840:

Conncept.7638:

juno.1840:

Conncept.7638:

They added a single new tier, it’s still capped at a clearly visible ceiling just like it was before, just slightly higher than the previous one.

This made me laugh.

Glad to add some mirth to your day, but if you have any real proof of your claims that vertical progression will continually be added, then how about you show it? Otherwise, your case is baseless.

But as things are, there is a hard cap, and the jump from the second highest tier to the highest is now lower than it was. What you find humorous doesn’t matter next to those facts you seem intent to ignore in your blind accusations.

Your drama aside (I don’t recall acusing anyone of anything), I could just as easily say “can you provide proof that vertical progression will not be added?”

History in GW2 has one more level of vertical progression added (ascended). I think history is against your position so far.

Innocent until proven guilty, and you agreed with the OP, who made exactly that accusation.

One more tier of vertical progression was added — guilty.

Then we should all just stay at level 1 with no gear, because any progression at all is ANet breaking it’s word?

No. ANET’s policy was to offer a relatively easy 1-80 level progression and a vertical gear progression that was permanently capped at the Exotics. This way, people could enjoy vertical progression at a leisurely pace because they knew that eventually they would end up with the highest stats possible, and not face an ever-increasing slide down the power curve because of their more casual (meaning, not focused on acquiring “the best” stat-wise) playstyle.

This is the same policy they had in GW1, and what was promised in GW2 – a relatively easy vertical progression to a hard cap that remained permanently in place for the life of the game, and the only “progression” involved was horizontal towards different skins that had the same stats.

(1) I think ANet would be smart if they make ascended items better than exotics, but make them different. For instance, keep the upgrade stats on the item, and make the item stats a bit higher, but don’t duplicate stats. This will have an equalized effect where an ascended item will have good all round stats, like 6 different and good stats. While an exotic will have the possibility for you to place in an upgrade that can duplicate a stat, thereby making it stronger than the ascended upgrade.

If you understand my example, but I’m basically suggesting that ascended gear shouldn’t be the next step above exotics, but it should be something special and entirely different, not just a stat ladder than you need to climb.

There should be choices in the game, more meaningful than just adding numbers. And ANet should be capable to pull this off.

(2) I really think fans should be involved. For a game built for the fans, GW2 sure seems rather apt at keeping them in the dark. Let fans know what’s going on, keep them in the loop long before you go into a direction. And I don’t mean announce systems before they’re ready, but keep us informed of the intentions behind a system, which won’t require you to actually reveal said system.

And none of this “we don’t want to tell you about something, and then pull it away, because it might be disappointed” malarkey. Fans are already disappointed.

Think about it, if ANet told everyone before launch that they had an idea to have an epic, final tier gear launch post game, which will basically grow with the game and eventually it will cover all content, if they told us that, then would everyone have reacted so poorly to ascended gear? Would ANet’s reputation be as marred as it is now?

Think about it.

(3) I doubt we’ll receive any apology. Fans claim that the manifest had been tarnished, but they still believe that they’re holding up their end. Either way, what’s done is done. What I will say is this, ANet better plan carefully how they’ll proceed from here, because the fans are livid.

(4) I think it will be good overall for the company if they don’t leave the personnel on their live teams only n one team. Who knows, maybe someone working on the holiday events might have some brilliant ideas for PvP brewing inside his mind. Maybe not even he knows it, but if people revolve around, it’ll keep the ideas fresh and unique.

Well, that my thoughts on this topic.

Jornophelanthas.1475:

Paying (about) $55 for a game does not buy ownership of the game company, and does not entitle one to make game design or business decisions. Least of all, it does not entitle one to take away somebody’s livelihood.

One forum post is not negative publicity.
Opinion is not fact.
Not even mine.

You are correct, one forum post is not negative publicity. But, thousands of posts in a short period of time has been enough for many of the gaming news sites to report on what is happening. That IS negative publicity.

In terms of how Anet can make good. I personally think that if they agree to keep ascended as the top stat gear and make it available widely through WvW, crafting and such, it will be a step in the right direction.

As a company, Zynga sees most of its revenue come from a small group of big spenders. For Zynga, losing 25% of the lowest spenders would likely have less impact than losing the 1% of top spenders.

I’m going to go ahead and assume this is the same for Anet as it is for Zynga. Chances are these changes are made to appeal to the people actually funding their game. As games are made as a way to make money, how can you be upset by this? Who cares about the manifesto, at the end of the day profitability is what matters.

I don’t think there’s anything to ‘make good’ on, this change is probably $$ driven and losing a bunch of players who aren’t buying gems isn’t going to impact them.

OP, you’re using strong words like ‘MUST’ on EVERY point.

…..and it doesn’t look like ‘suggestions’ as implied.

Learn to differentiate between Suggestions and Threats.

Wilky.7521:

As a company, Zynga sees most of its revenue come from a small group of big spenders. For Zynga, losing 25% of the lowest spenders would likely have less impact than losing the 1% of top spenders.

I’m going to go ahead and assume this is the same for Anet as it is for Zynga. Chances are these changes are made to appeal to the people actually funding their game. As games are made as a way to make money, how can you be upset by this? Who cares about the manifesto, at the end of the day profitability is what matters.

I don’t think there’s anything to ‘make good’ on, this change is probably $$ driven and losing a bunch of players who aren’t buying gems isn’t going to impact them.

I care because I didn’t buy into a WoW clone or to have a gear treadmill being put in the game…it’s as simple as that.

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

Jornophelanthas.1475:

Paying (about) $55 for a game does not buy ownership of the game company, and does not entitle one to make game design or business decisions. Least of all, it does not entitle one to take away somebody’s livelihood.

One forum post is not negative publicity.
Opinion is not fact.
Not even mine.

Perhaps you’re unware of the 10,000 + post thread here? This is not “one post in a forum”.

BTW, purchasing the game and buying $120 worth of gems based on their stated commitment to uphold a fundamental design philosophy gives me the right to state my displeasure and offer up a means of correcting what I see as a huge mistake.

I am aware of the uproar, but that does not make you, or anyone else, its spokeperson, nor does it entitle anyone to issue petty and vindictive ultimatums. You weren’t even trying to be constructive, and although your choice of words may be civil, your demand for the public humiliation of an entire company is anything but.

“You made a terrible decision” is an opinion.
“I want an apology” is not an opinion, but a demand that may or may not be reasonable.
“Fire that guy now!” is not an opinion, but an unreasonable demand.

Neither $55, nor $120 buys you the right to fire people.

Mandrax.7342:

In terms of how Anet can make good. I personally think that if they agree to keep ascended as the top stat gear and make it available widely through WvW, crafting and such, it will be a step in the right direction.

I believe they have already announced something like this:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/A-message-from-our-Studio-Design-Director-Chris-Whiteside/first#post721451

(The bottom paragraph)

ckeeton.4907:

Stop whining its getting old,

Stop whining about whiners, it’s getting old.

ckeeton.4907:

Enjoy the whining over something so stupid . Wow

Enjoy the whining about something as stupid as someone whining.

ckeeton.4907:

Stop whining its getting old,

So there’s no point in trying to make suggestion to make the game better? So the game should just remain the way it is because it’s perfect, right? People leaving are the ones who you should lash out against, because those who actually come to the forums with constructive suggestions, like the OP does, are the real people who care about the game.

Those who leave, or worse, those who just pull up their shoulders and think “whatever” are the ones who’re doing the game real harm.

You had me until 4.. You should never demand anyone’s job. People make mistakes and should be allowed to learn from them. This wasn’t a life or death situation, it was simply a bad Idea that in the long run didn’t harm anyone. I think if you make any demand on these people it’s that they learn from their mistakes and don’t do it again.

Jornophelanthas said: “I am aware of the uproar, but that does not make you, or anyone else, its spokeperson, nor does it entitle anyone to issue petty and vindictive ultimatums. You weren’t even trying to be constructive, and although your choice of words may be civil, your demand for the public humiliation of an entire company is anything but.”

I never claimed to be any of those things. I was being constructive; a big dose of public humility is what is called for – it’s what saved CCP from going belly up, and whomever green-lighted this needs to be canned or at least reassigned in order for that part of the player base to be able to start the long road back to trust – IMO.

“They should not be punished for following a management directive.”

Actually, considering nexon basically forced ANet to hire someone to make the game more “profit centric” (read: what people think people will spend money on) and that she basically made the game take the same steps every other game took 1-3 months before they horribly horribly died, I think I agree that she need a good bout of the old firing.

Anyway, I like how the WoW fanbase that game hops in between WoW updates and kills them off so only their favored holy game/religion succeed is kittening at all of us (I’m sure most of us being people who pre ordered and supported ANet in development. . .) that we’re the ones who don’t get it. I’m just hoping that ANet can recover after the inevitable fail in a few months.

Sovta.4719:

They lied to us!!! And we are not idiots like rest of you:(

They lied to us… Get used to it.

We are not idiots…however 99% follow the 1%.

Rest of you… We’re all stupid, you and me and this goes beyond GW2.

I just don’t get why more people aren’t up in arms about lotteries and keno parlors. I would think real life material x times more important than virtual k-rap.

/Signed
OP’s idea is great one but I fear that Panda has invaded Anet.