Guild Wars 2

A few weeks back, all we saw on this forum were arguments about farming. People complaining about Anet nerfing every farm spot, people complaining about not being able to make money.

So Anet puts farms in the game. Easy farms.

Now people complain about inflation, zerging and having to farm to keep up with other people. What’s a developer to do?

You fix something for me, you break it for someone else. You fix it for them, you break it for me.

I think Anet is trying to balance thing as best they can…but I think it’s impossible. One person likes minigames, one person calls them fluff. One person likes gear progression another wants only horizontal progression.

And whatever half is enjoying the current fruits of Anet’s labor, the other half will come here to complain about not getting what they want.

I’m not saying people shouldn’t complain if they’re not happy (because even if I did think that it wouldn’t change anything) but it might help if people could at least see that there are people asking for the stuff you’re complaining about being in the game.

“You can please some of the people some of the time all of the people some of the time some of the people all of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time” – Abraham Lincoln

If you’re going to try to cater to different player demographs, it’s a case of trying to find a balance in putting out content for them demographs. Unfortunately, there’s never enough hours in the day to put out content for all groups.

Without going into too much, PvE could use some fundamental improvements to mechanics and behind the scenes (AI, for example), WvW could use some new maps, SPvP could use some game-modes.

TheDaiBish.9735:

“You can please some of the people some of the time all of the people some of the time some of the people all of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time” – Abraham Lincoln

If you’re going to try to cater to different player demographs, it’s a case of trying to find a balance in putting out content for them demographs. Unfortunately, there’s never enough hours in the day to put out content for all groups.

Without going into too much, PvE could use some fundamental improvements to mechanics and behind the scenes (AI, for example), WvW could use some new maps, SPvP could use some game-modes.

In other words, Anet could use some new dev’s =) Back to the original topic, who would want to burn themselves on this game :/

I give A.net quite a lot of slack. I don’t know if that’s because of my own job as customer support giving me perspective, my functional brain, my adult age, my fanboy level or my gullibility. Probably all at the same time.

When I’m 100% honest … this game is fun. I like most mechanics and I’m not forced to join in the mechanics I don’t like.

Honestly, Anet’s doing a fantastic job. Game’s not perfect, but we’re getting there. It’ll take some cooperation and feedback but if you ask me, I could without some whiny tones around here. (:

They are running this game like a business. I mean to say they’ve got things backwards from what a game is supposed to do. You have to have a vision of what fun will be like in your game, and you’ve got to make it the best it can be. Here they are trying to cater to various people and their playstyles and their wants and their wishes. All different demographics, like a large business might try to net as many customers as it can by offering different products that have various markets. Except, this is only 1 product. A single video game. If you try to please everyone you will end up pleasing no one.

There is quite a recent great article over at Penny Arcade about how creative work has become running the gauntlet in the internet age. Just look at Mass Effect 3 and the months of personal harassment and threats towards developers. Imagine the internet mob in the ages of Da Vinci, Melville or Michelangelo (to pick random examles), all great works of art would have been corrupted by “general taste”. Must really suck to be a developer/game designer.

Let’s just hope Anet has mercy with us all and doesn’t focus only on the group who brings them the most money.

I give them a lot of slack too and I enjoy the game, I have for a year because I do the things I find fun and ignore the rest.

I do feel that they are not consistent and that their attempts at balance have not been that great ( I do not mean class balance)

I am talking specifically about the balance between permanent and temp content
They keep saying wait, we are aware and we are working on it- so far I am not seeing it.

I follow the news the same as everyone else on this forum but it usually consists of a lot of hype, some promises of big plans that will be revealed later.
That is starting to tire me a bit.

I say this with all respect but I would like to see less press and more in-game results.
As an example they made a very big deal about the one year anniversary and how it will be an update that changes the world etc etc.
What we got was a completely predictable plotline and a zerg farm.
(disregarding the quality of life stuff because those are awesome)

Honestly the game felt a lot more open and free to me at launch- I still play the way I want, but now I have to willfully ignore parts of the game to do that, when previously I felt like I was embracing the world

I would hate to be a developer for this game, really really I would.
As a player I am starting to feel a bit like a guinea pig

they wont have the freedom they need to get their imaginations run wild when they got to pay for food, pay electric bills, buy luxuries, etc2. to do their boss’s demands… while trying to meet a large variety of player’s expectations and keep the game sustainable against other strong competitors..

Morrigan.2809:

As a player I am starting to feel a bit like a guinea pig

That is exactly what they are doing. They are constantly surveying how to best maximise revenue.

Unlike in Gw1 where the developers had a clear vision of who they wanted to target and were content with their own niche, Gw2 is much more ambitious and has a larger amount developers trying please as much people as it can to get money. Nothing really wrong with that but yes it does hurt the game from a game design perspectives.

Their direction with the zerg events and easy gold heavily targets the majority of the population. Targetting the casual audience is what they teach in games design these days since it’s the most profitable.

Whenever I come across something that makes me want to chuck my monitor out of the window, I just remind myself that they’ve created a far better game than I could have done…and it’s free to play!

zencow.3651:

Morrigan.2809:

As a player I am starting to feel a bit like a guinea pig

That is exactly what they are doing. They are constantly surveying how to best maximise revenue.

Unlike in Gw1 where the developers had a clear vision of who they wanted to target and were content with their own niche, Gw2 is much more ambitious and has a larger amount developers trying please as much people as it can to get money. Nothing really wrong with that but yes it does hurt the game from a game design perspectives.

Their direction with the zerg events and easy gold heavily targets the majority of the population. Targetting the casual audience is what they teach in games design these days since it’s the most profitable.

‘Profitable’… ‘Business model gaming’… I love that, it’s such complete bullkitten. Rope in the drooling masses for 5 minutes instead of creating something amazing that will rope in everyone for years, basically.

This thinking comes from two irrelevant places, WoW and mobile gaming. Mobile gaming, yes it’s a smarter way forward. The games are jump in and jump out and have to run on phones. PC and console games, not so much. WoW jumped out of the gate strong because of what we used to call ‘Yahoo Gamers’ circa 2004. This was the era where the general public invaded a once hallowed nerdspace, the interwebs. They forged forward out of just emailing and chatting into simple games that the Yahoo homepage wretched forth onto their browsers.

None of them were true gamers, but loved this shiny new space and wanted more. WoW came out around this time and could run on a potato. All the current MMO players were very sick of grindy games; with only one trick like PvP, instances, flying or raids and wanted something new. These two groups met in WoW and that dichotomy still exists today, Casuals Vs. Hardcores. Basically, two groups with roughly the same goal, fun, but with different means and abilities to achieve it. Being overly logical and simply saying, “There are more casuals, so more money for daddy!” is so shortsighted.

The answer is right there for the devs to see, if they have hindsight. Players will get better if given the opportunity and environment. The hardcore audience will always exist but if a game is too easy, they won’t play it. At this point, the bulk of the MMO playerbase is in limbo or are playing MOBAs. The moba market is around 30-40 million players between Dota2 and LoL. What have MMO devs been doing to tap that? Trying to find a way to fuse a WoW clone with a moba /epicfacepalm.jpg…

Not a hard job, at all. The writing is all over the kittening wall. Just look at it and don’t listen to players wanting free stuff. Everyone wants free stuff, that’s not an important point of design.

Lots of interesting comments in this thread.

A lot of people, most people even, see me as some mindless fan boy who likes everything Anet does. But the truth is quite far from that.

There’s a big difference between liking something and accepting it as a necessity, whether I like it or not. Sort of how I feel about ascended gear. I’d be much happier if ascended gear wasn’t in the game…except for that fact that I’m not sure there’s be a game still without out. Some people need stuff to work towards.

I accept this game on its own terms. It’s not the MMO I thought it would be, but it’s fun. I love my guild, I have fun playing, it gives me a place to hang out and enjoy myself.

I’ve played every aspect of this game, even participated in a couple of SPvP tournaments a while back (when they still game out tornament tickets).

It’s not perfect. It’s not close to perfect. But considering the scale and scope of the game I think Anet has done an admirable job.

In order for a company to make a better game for me, it would have to have the same feeling of fun, but also be more immersive.

Some games are very immersive, but not fun at all. This is the first MMO I’ve had fun in in a long, long time.

Saying that ANet are doing a bad job have no concept of what it’s like to run an international business that has up to the millions in clients. It’s not an easy job. It requires an immense amount of insight and overview of the industry and business acumen at that. That’s one of the reasons for CEOs being paid more than the guy who works downstairs.

The forums give a completely skewed view of things, forums are used for discussion and unfortunately praise is a dead end when it comes to discussion. Complaining generates more discussion than praise, thus reading the forum everyday will look like people are unhappy.

If ANet did a survey and approached a set of random players I’d bet my hat that there were a lot more satisifed customers than people give credit for.

The penny arcade article is very good if you get a chance to read it. The whole thing with CoD, Mass effect is messed up in that people are receiving death threats of all things. It takes a minority to cause a kitten storm.

Thankfully it seems developers are intelligent enough to realise that this is a minority and can’t let it get them down – or there’d never be any sequels. Successful games saleswise would have all their developers disheartened because bigger audience = bigger chance for disagreement.

I want to see somebody who’s a full time developer whining on about this game. I bet you they’ll give a justified argument, not just complaining when they see a problem.

milo.6942:

They are running this game like a business. I mean to say they’ve got things backwards from what a game is supposed to do. You have to have a vision of what fun will be like in your game, and you’ve got to make it the best it can be. Here they are trying to cater to various people and their playstyles and their wants and their wishes. All different demographics, like a large business might try to net as many customers as it can by offering different products that have various markets. Except, this is only 1 product. A single video game. If you try to please everyone you will end up pleasing no one.

I’d be more worried is A.net was being run as a game instead of the kitten business it actually is.

marnick.4305:

milo.6942:

They are running this game like a business. I mean to say they’ve got things backwards from what a game is supposed to do. You have to have a vision of what fun will be like in your game, and you’ve got to make it the best it can be. Here they are trying to cater to various people and their playstyles and their wants and their wishes. All different demographics, like a large business might try to net as many customers as it can by offering different products that have various markets. Except, this is only 1 product. A single video game. If you try to please everyone you will end up pleasing no one.

I’d be more worried is A.net was being run as a game instead of the kitten business it actually is.

This – The very definition that they are still in business is an argument that they’re doing something right.

cassius.5809:

Saying that ANet are doing a bad job have no concept of what it’s like to run an international business that has up to the millions in clients. It’s not an easy job. It requires an immense amount of insight and overview of the industry and business acumen at that. That’s one of the reasons for CEOs being paid more than the guy who works downstairs.

I would love to see any CEO, of any current corporation publicly try to, “work downstairs.” And, have the person he replaced do his ‘job’ for a around 6 months.

It would be the fastest turnaround a company ever made in quality, cost effectiveness and customer service. What would change to achieve that, the ‘downstairs’ guy would not sacrifice quality for his personal greed.

Stop being social engineered to put people like that on pedestals. Insight and overview? Is that what you really see in the current MMO market? Are you completely daft?

What a load of rubbish. Yes I would also love to see somebody downstairs run a multinational business.

Socially engineered? No, I’m talking by personal business experience – are you? You think that CEOs are greedy and they just sit there and let everybody else do the work don’t you?

I hardly see the champ loot bags as an answer to “give us farm spot”. If any, less rewarding bags would’ve been added to every mob or improved events reward.

Bags were added to champions (in my opinion) cause they thought they were rare mobs.

Problem: Dev, designer, one team, the other, missed communications and poor general knowledge of the game made one innocent patch turn into a farm monster. Probably whoever thought of the champ bags didn’t know there are many champs together, and the guy who knew there were champs together (probably he doesnt work at ANet anymore) didn’t listen/care/give a thought to the champ bag update. Ergo, they messed up the game because they don’t know what they have in their hands or they don’t even care enough to put 10 seconds to analyze the impact.

cassius.5809:

What a load of rubbish. Yes I would also love to see somebody downstairs run a multinational business.

Socially engineered? No, I’m talking by personal business experience – are you? You think that CEOs are greedy and they just sit there and let everybody else do the work don’t you?

Most definitely, they control the purse strings, nothing more.

They’re payed 60k+ per year… nothing to complain.

What a game designer should do is try to address the root cause of the problem and not adjust the game based on collective intelligence (not a fan).

The amount of gold you have only matters relative to the general population. People should have been asking for increased drops of desired material. Instead, in their wisdom, they asked for gold.

“Gee, if I could just farm more gold I could buy Dusk, it’s only 700g”

The problem is that if everyone gets more gold the price of Dusk rises. (now it’s 800g)

They should have thought “Gee, if Dusk would only drop more often I could afford it with what I have.”

However, I agree that ANet is in a difficult position. They can’t please everyone. Sometimes it seems like they can’t please anyone.

I think this MMO has, up to now, done a good job at holding onto a center. People who want raids have left (or will leave), people who didn’t want gear progression have left (or will leave), people who don’t like casual content have left (or will leave). Etc…

This leaves a core or people who are satisfied with the current “a little of everything” approach.

The main challenge I see about this is that there’s no core set of values or desires that holds the group together.

To use an metaphor, if you cater to the political far right, the left leaves but you basically know what your constituency wants. If you cater to the political far left, the right leaves but you basically know what your constituency wants. It you cater to the center, the far right and far left leave, but everytime you announce a policy someone is going to be upset, either a moderate right or a moderate left.

TheDaiBish.9735:

“You can please some of the people some of the time all of the people some of the time some of the people all of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time” – Abraham Lincoln

—snip—

This misquote is very funny to me because of the unintentional (????) juxtaposition of “please” and “fool”.

TooBz.3065:

What a game designer should do is try to address the root cause of the problem and not adjust the game based on collective intelligence (not a fan).

But they can’t. There are 400+ workers at Anet and each designer has their own vision.
There is alot of ‘inertia’ when pushing things forward hence the changes that aren’t hotfixes take forever to happen e.g. super hard nerf Subject 7, then they had to recollect themselves and reconsider how they would and change Gauntlet in a more meaningful way. Equally once something starts moving it hard to/can’t be stopped.

Azunai.5974:

Honestly, Anet’s doing a fantastic job. Game’s not perfect, but we’re getting there. It’ll take some cooperation and feedback but if you ask me, I could without some whiny tones around here. (:

It’s funny how you and I can both look at the same game and one of us feel it’s headed towards perfection while the other feels it’s being ruined one update at a time.

1. This is a business. These guys are trying to make money. They have to feed their families, they have to have money for their bills and they have to have money to be able to run customer support staff, development teams, server upkeep and all the little people in between. So yes, to think they shouldn’t make money on a game they work hard …on is not being realistic.

2. Yes…they are going to try to cater to the broader audience. Does that mean there won’t be enough content for any one type of play style? Yes and no. It really depends on future updates. I would love to see more dungeons in the game and other small group content, but might not get it right away because they are working on other things that will improve everyone’s experience, not just mine because I happen to like dungeons. Does it upset me? No, because I know that eventually they’ll get around to it. In the meantime, I can expect to still have fun doing other things.

3. The Devs ARE listening. A really simple example of this is Super Adventure Box. They knew that it was their most popular content update. Because lots of people loved it so much, they are bringing it out again expanded.

4. Ask yourself the question. Where else are you going to be able to experience a game that gives back so much for your time with so much content and so many updates for the lovely sub price of nothing? Honestly, other games that BTP or FTP nickle and dime the crap out of you or you end up having to farm waaaaayyyy more than what this game makes you. Sure some things need improved and things will always evolve and change in an MMO, but that’s the nature of the mmo beast.

What’s the moral of the post? Why is it in Guild Wars 2 discussion?

Off topic perhaps? Personal opinion about how you view players complaining about game issues.

Vayne, the answer, of course, is to develop the game according to it’s DNA, not based upon each wave of reaction to any given element introduced. Just as people don’t fare well in life as people pleasers, neither do companies. If the DNA is right, the people will come. Customer feedback is very helpful and should be sought and considered, but it should not drive the evolution of the game.

I actually think that a lot of the bad elements that have been introduced since launch are due to the short-term thinking that accompanies receiving feedback with wringing hands. Oh no, they’re not all happy! Focus on the DNA (manifesto-level ideas). Listen to and evaluate all feedback. Take it for what it’s worth. (This is where reality testing comes in and it helps to have the experience of years of development.) Make corrections in course where necessary. If they deviate from the DNA, explain why they are being made honestly. Everything will be OK if your vision of the game is sound and I think the original vision was sound. I’d love to be a developer at a company with a compelling vision that was principled in evolving its product.

You can’t please everybody all of the time. I don’t really know who said it, but it’s one of the things I learn growing up. This is the same principle I apply to my own guild. There is no perfect guild, only a guild that is perfect for the player’s playstyle. The same can be said to this game, or any other game: there is no perfect game, only a game perfect for a certain player’s preference.

Players can complain about stuff, and if it’s valid, it’s good because it caters for improvement either thru evolution or revolution. Players can also praise stuff, which again if valid, can ensure that something is working and requires no changing and should be sustained for as long as it makes sense.

So just respect each other’s opinion, facts, feedback, complaints, etc. and know that whether it’s a complaint or a praise, if the recipient can make something out of it, then it’s for the better.

Antara.3189:

What’s the moral of the post? Why is it in Guild Wars 2 discussion?

Off topic perhaps? Personal opinion about how you view players complaining about game issues.

I think that general posts about the genre as they apply to this game are perfectly acceptable. People seem to be here discussing Guild Wars 2 and how it pertains to what I said. Why are you so interested in shutting down a conversation that people seem to be invested in?

Vayne.8563:

Antara.3189:

What’s the moral of the post? Why is it in Guild Wars 2 discussion?

Off topic perhaps? Personal opinion about how you view players complaining about game issues.

I think that general posts about the genre as they apply to this game are perfectly acceptable. People seem to be here discussing Guild Wars 2 and how it pertains to what I said. Why are you so interested in shutting down a conversation that people seem to be invested in?

Guild Wars Discussions should be kept to just that, Guild Wars 2 Discussions.

Not about Corporate Politics, or how players treat other players, devs, etc. It only stirs debate that either gets derailed or abusive. Constructive or not.

Fits better in the Community section.

On the point of your thread though, People are People, everyone has dissagreements and critisizes in different ways. Nothing will change the way people talk, debate, critisize. The best thing for the Devs to do is keep the forums clean as possible and on point as possible. They do a good job too.

Antara.3189:

Vayne.8563:

Antara.3189:

What’s the moral of the post? Why is it in Guild Wars 2 discussion?

Off topic perhaps? Personal opinion about how you view players complaining about game issues.

I think that general posts about the genre as they apply to this game are perfectly acceptable. People seem to be here discussing Guild Wars 2 and how it pertains to what I said. Why are you so interested in shutting down a conversation that people seem to be invested in?

Guild Wars Discussions should be kept to just that, [i]Guild Wars 2 Discussions[i].

Not about Corporate Politics, or how players treat other players, devs, etc. It only stirs debate that either gets derailed or abusive. Constructive or not.

Fits better in the Community section.

On the point of your thread though, People are People, everyone has dissagreements and critisizes in different ways. Nothing will change the way people talk, debate, critisize. The best thing for the Devs to do is keep the forums clean as possible and on point as possible. They do a good job too.

This doesn’t fit better in the community section, because it’s not about the community. It’s not a link. It’s a discussion about how Anet has had to balance the game to deal with a lot of different customer concerns. Not just my concern or your concern.

If that is indeed what they’re doing ( and it seems likely to me they are) that affects everything about development of the game. Indeed why Anet does or doesn’t do anything to Guild Wars 2 probably couldn’t be understood without understanding what drives them to make the game as they are.

There are so many threads in this forum (in this section) that talks about Anet’s greed or Anet doing everything for money. And while I do think all companies want to make money, that doesn’t mean they don’t want to make money by making their product better.

If people can post here in this section about Anet’s greed, I don’t see why I can’t post about the other reasons Anet might make some of the changes they’ve made to the game.

Vayne.8563:

There’s a big difference between liking something and accepting it as a necessity, whether I like it or not. Sort of how I feel about ascended gear. I’d be much happier if ascended gear wasn’t in the game…except for that fact that I’m not sure there’s be a game still without out. Some people need stuff to work towards.

I’m of two minds about Ascended. I think the game is doing fairly well numbers-wise, but is that because of Ascended or in spite of it? I’m not sure we’ll ever know if the game lost more people because of Ascended than it kept. Among my circle, it lost no one because of no gear progression, but did lose players because of Ascended. I have to think that the number lost because of Ascended was significant because of the vague PR statements about no more tiers, and because they are talking about moving to skill progression rather than gear. I guess we’ll see once that’s out. If it doesn’t catch, the “something to work for” players will be demanding Ascended 2.0 at some point.

Vayne.8563:

It’s not perfect. It’s not close to perfect. But considering the scale and scope of the game I think Anet has done an admirable job.

There’s a lot to like about the base game. I think the Living Story could use less “bread and circuses,” and more “meat.” Every time I read Colin or Mike O’Brien talking about it, it sounds like fun, but the actual execution has been a lot more “click X” and get achievement and a lot less story or content that makes sense and is compelling.

IndigoSundown.5419:

There’s a lot to like about the base game. I think the Living Story could use less “bread and circuses,” and more “meat.” Every time I read Colin or Mike O’Brien talking about it, it sounds like fun, but the actual execution has been a lot more “click X” and get achievement and a lot less story or content that makes sense and is compelling.

It may be very likely we don’t get anything other than cotton-candy story since, well, their second attempt to actually try with something to develop has blown up so spectacularly.

Especially when they said “hey, Super Adventure Box is next for people who missed doing it earlier this year” and people started to flip out.