Guild Wars 2

Heijincks.9267:

kKagari.6804:

Heijincks.9267:

kKagari.6804:

This whole counter argument of ‘you don’t need to do it’ is ridiculous. I don’t need to do anything in this game, should I completely stop playing it then? It doesn’t make the content designed any less grindy. OP wants ascended gear, and the path towards getting ascended gear is grindy, there is no argument about that.

For example, if you can get an ascended ring by beating a boss without pressing 1, it’d be a challenging way to get an ascended ring, that wouldn’t be grinding. It might even be fun. And OP wouldn’t be making this topic.

Ascended gear is a grind.

If you stopped playing the game, it would defeat the entire purpose of the counterargument to that original counterargument.

Which is why the counterargument to the “You don’t need to…” argument doesn’t work. You don’t need to use /dance to play the game. Does the counterargument work here too?

What are you on about? Clearly quitting the game is not supposed to be a solution. The thing is, relative to what O kitten aying; if he finds gearing up fun, why does it need to be a grind? The only way he is going to get ascended gear is by grinding, whether its fractals or dailies.

Exactly. Which is why the counterargument to “optional” is wrong.

If I found anything else to be fun, then why does it have to be a grind as well? “Grind” is such a relative term that I can find anything grindy, including something as simple as doing map completion.

Actually quitting the game is a solution.

Really people – if everything is agony and you don’t enjoy it anymore put down the crack pipe, erm mouse and keyboard… have a break.

I stopped watching my sport for a time back in the day because I was made angry by it and all joy was gone – they ruined it with profiteering and changed the contest from what I’d loved about it. Now I enjoy it again because I realised that salary rules and scandals were distracting me from just enjoying it but I was too deep in… the game.

Heijincks.9267:

kKagari.6804:

Heijincks.9267:

kKagari.6804:

This whole counter argument of ‘you don’t need to do it’ is ridiculous. I don’t need to do anything in this game, should I completely stop playing it then? It doesn’t make the content designed any less grindy. OP wants ascended gear, and the path towards getting ascended gear is grindy, there is no argument about that.

For example, if you can get an ascended ring by beating a boss without pressing 1, it’d be a challenging way to get an ascended ring, that wouldn’t be grinding. It might even be fun. And OP wouldn’t be making this topic.

Ascended gear is a grind.

If you stopped playing the game, it would defeat the entire purpose of the counterargument to that original counterargument.

Which is why the counterargument to the “You don’t need to…” argument doesn’t work. You don’t need to use /dance to play the game. Does the counterargument work here too?

What are you on about? Clearly quitting the game is not supposed to be a solution. The thing is, relative to what O kitten aying; if he finds gearing up fun, why does it need to be a grind? The only way he is going to get ascended gear is by grinding, whether its fractals or dailies.

Exactly. Which is why the counterargument to “optional” is wrong.

If I found anything else to be fun, then why does it have to be a grind as well? “Grind” is such a relative term that I can find anything grindy, including something as simple as doing map completion.

Lets say, you really want to play tennis. But to play tennis, you need $1000 dollars. You don’t have $1000 dollars. That’s you can play table tennis, that’s free. Does that solve the issue of that tennis costing $1000 sucks? NO.

OP wants BiS gear. BiS gear requires grinding. You tell him not to get BiS gear, does that change the fact that BiS gear requires grinding? NO.

kKagari.6804:

Can I do the uber challenging fractal level 50 without ascended gear? nope.

Fractals of the Mist is an infinite dungeon. So what you’re complaining about is having to grind for gear so that you can run a dungeon whose sole purpose, it’s very nature, is nothing but a grind for gear. Did you think about that, even a little, before you clicked “Reply”?

kKagari.6804:

Ascended gear could have been gotten by completing really challenging fun content once, but instead, we have objectives that involve lots of grind.

Sure, it could. But then we’d be trading “this game is too much of a grind” complaints for “this game is too hard” complaints. And then what?

kKagari.6804:

Heijincks.9267:

kKagari.6804:

Heijincks.9267:

kKagari.6804:

This whole counter argument of ‘you don’t need to do it’ is ridiculous. I don’t need to do anything in this game, should I completely stop playing it then? It doesn’t make the content designed any less grindy. OP wants ascended gear, and the path towards getting ascended gear is grindy, there is no argument about that.

For example, if you can get an ascended ring by beating a boss without pressing 1, it’d be a challenging way to get an ascended ring, that wouldn’t be grinding. It might even be fun. And OP wouldn’t be making this topic.

Ascended gear is a grind.

If you stopped playing the game, it would defeat the entire purpose of the counterargument to that original counterargument.

Which is why the counterargument to the “You don’t need to…” argument doesn’t work. You don’t need to use /dance to play the game. Does the counterargument work here too?

What are you on about? Clearly quitting the game is not supposed to be a solution. The thing is, relative to what O kitten aying; if he finds gearing up fun, why does it need to be a grind? The only way he is going to get ascended gear is by grinding, whether its fractals or dailies.

Exactly. Which is why the counterargument to “optional” is wrong.

If I found anything else to be fun, then why does it have to be a grind as well? “Grind” is such a relative term that I can find anything grindy, including something as simple as doing map completion.

Lets say, you really want to play tennis. But to play tennis, you need $1000 dollars. You don’t have $1000 dollars. That’s you can play table tennis, that’s free. Does that solve the issue of that tennis costing $1000 sucks? NO.

OP wants BiS gear. BiS gear requires grinding. You tell him not to get BiS gear, does that change the fact that BiS gear requires grinding? NO.

If people still don’t understand the anti ascended argument after this analogy, then they’re probably working for anet. LOL awesome example

darkace.8925:

kKagari.6804:

Can I do the uber challenging fractal level 50 without ascended gear? nope.

Fractals of the Mist is an infinite dungeon. So what you’re complaining about is having to grind for gear so that you can run a dungeon whose sole purpose, it’s very nature, is nothing but a grind for gear. Did you think about that, even a little, before you clicked “Reply”?

kKagari.6804:

Ascended gear could have been gotten by completing really challenging fun content once, but instead, we have objectives that involve lots of grind.

Sure, it could. But then we’d be trading “this game is too much of a grind” complaints for “this game is too hard” complaints. And then what?

Nice deflection. Issue at hand is if you can do fractal 50 without ascended gear. Answer was no, answer is still no. Try harder.

Oh and, thats totally cool that you want to replace player skill with time played, even though it is completely 180 from the original Arenanet’s design philosophy. Heaven forbid, making games challenging, who would ever dream of that.

Currently i have 4 alts + my main

2 of them are in lvl 80 already – Ranger and Guardian. I never bother getting them full exotic accessories since i started playing 5 months ago until recently. I survived the game with just having an exotic set of armors with rare trinkets.

I also have lvl 59 Charr Warrior; lvl 11 Ele Sylv and lvl 5 Human mesmer.

Now that the ascended gear is here, i have 55 laurels. But really, i could not feel the need of buying an ascended gear yet. For me, it may increase my chance of survivability and all with those added stats but in the ended “Play Skill” will play a vital role for succeeding in game.

You can actually geared your character with out getting an ascended gear. For me, i do the things i love doing in the game, the same time i am earning the stuff i need to get an ascended gear in the future which actually works perfect for me.

Deleting my alts will not be an option for me though. As long as i am enjoying and loving the game then im cool with it.

Ascended items for me are all optional. PVE is already doable with out it. Same with WVW and PVP.

If i wanted it, i will a lot 20 days doing lvl 10 fractals to get 2 ascended ring with Prestine tokens. And few months doing dailys and monthlys to get ascended items with laurel … Which is not on my top priority as of the moment lol…. I planned on doing it slowly

kKagari.6804:

Heijincks.9267:

kKagari.6804:

Heijincks.9267:

kKagari.6804:

This whole counter argument of ‘you don’t need to do it’ is ridiculous. I don’t need to do anything in this game, should I completely stop playing it then? It doesn’t make the content designed any less grindy. OP wants ascended gear, and the path towards getting ascended gear is grindy, there is no argument about that.

For example, if you can get an ascended ring by beating a boss without pressing 1, it’d be a challenging way to get an ascended ring, that wouldn’t be grinding. It might even be fun. And OP wouldn’t be making this topic.

Ascended gear is a grind.

If you stopped playing the game, it would defeat the entire purpose of the counterargument to that original counterargument.

Which is why the counterargument to the “You don’t need to…” argument doesn’t work. You don’t need to use /dance to play the game. Does the counterargument work here too?

What are you on about? Clearly quitting the game is not supposed to be a solution. The thing is, relative to what O kitten aying; if he finds gearing up fun, why does it need to be a grind? The only way he is going to get ascended gear is by grinding, whether its fractals or dailies.

Exactly. Which is why the counterargument to “optional” is wrong.

If I found anything else to be fun, then why does it have to be a grind as well? “Grind” is such a relative term that I can find anything grindy, including something as simple as doing map completion.

Lets say, you really want to play tennis. But to play tennis, you need $1000 dollars. You don’t have $1000 dollars. That’s you can play table tennis, that’s free. Does that solve the issue of that tennis costing $1000 sucks? NO.

OP wants BiS gear. BiS gear requires grinding. You tell him not to get BiS gear, does that change the fact that BiS gear requires grinding? NO.

But I’d like to play a certain type of tennis that requires me attend tournaments, join teams, training sessions, strat meetings, pay for insurance, attend mandatory safety training, and…

Screw it – this is hard – I should realign my goals to something which suits MY personal level of commitment (and skill).

kKagari.6804:

Heijincks.9267:

kKagari.6804:

Heijincks.9267:

kKagari.6804:

This whole counter argument of ‘you don’t need to do it’ is ridiculous. I don’t need to do anything in this game, should I completely stop playing it then? It doesn’t make the content designed any less grindy. OP wants ascended gear, and the path towards getting ascended gear is grindy, there is no argument about that.

For example, if you can get an ascended ring by beating a boss without pressing 1, it’d be a challenging way to get an ascended ring, that wouldn’t be grinding. It might even be fun. And OP wouldn’t be making this topic.

Ascended gear is a grind.

If you stopped playing the game, it would defeat the entire purpose of the counterargument to that original counterargument.

Which is why the counterargument to the “You don’t need to…” argument doesn’t work. You don’t need to use /dance to play the game. Does the counterargument work here too?

What are you on about? Clearly quitting the game is not supposed to be a solution. The thing is, relative to what O kitten aying; if he finds gearing up fun, why does it need to be a grind? The only way he is going to get ascended gear is by grinding, whether its fractals or dailies.

Exactly. Which is why the counterargument to “optional” is wrong.

If I found anything else to be fun, then why does it have to be a grind as well? “Grind” is such a relative term that I can find anything grindy, including something as simple as doing map completion.

Lets say, you really want to play tennis. But to play tennis, you need $1000 dollars. You don’t have $1000 dollars. That’s you can play table tennis, that’s free. Does that solve the issue of that tennis costing $1000 sucks? NO.

OP wants BiS gear. BiS gear requires grinding. You tell him not to get BiS gear, does that change the fact that BiS gear requires grinding? NO.

Have I ever disagreed that BiS slot requires “grinding”? I don’t think you get where I am coming from. That being said, “grind” is a really relative term like I said before; it’s entirely subjective.

With that out of the way, my original point was that the “optional” counterargument is completely self-defeating. If you want something that’s not really an innate necessity to play the game as a whole, then that counterargument has nothing to stand on.

Unless you consider going into level 50 fractals as your ultimate goal. However, the entire design of that dungeon was made to cater hardcore grinders that casuals who complain about ascended would not typically go for anyway. This is made even more slight by the introduction of ascended gear outside of fractals.

Considering that, ascended is only getting easier and easier to get over time, and I don’t doubt that it’ll get even easier with later patches. By the time it fully replaces exotics, it probably won’t be a grind… at all.

Heijincks.9267:

kKagari.6804:

Heijincks.9267:

kKagari.6804:

Heijincks.9267:

kKagari.6804:

This whole counter argument of ‘you don’t need to do it’ is ridiculous. I don’t need to do anything in this game, should I completely stop playing it then? It doesn’t make the content designed any less grindy. OP wants ascended gear, and the path towards getting ascended gear is grindy, there is no argument about that.

For example, if you can get an ascended ring by beating a boss without pressing 1, it’d be a challenging way to get an ascended ring, that wouldn’t be grinding. It might even be fun. And OP wouldn’t be making this topic.

Ascended gear is a grind.

If you stopped playing the game, it would defeat the entire purpose of the counterargument to that original counterargument.

Which is why the counterargument to the “You don’t need to…” argument doesn’t work. You don’t need to use /dance to play the game. Does the counterargument work here too?

What are you on about? Clearly quitting the game is not supposed to be a solution. The thing is, relative to what O kitten aying; if he finds gearing up fun, why does it need to be a grind? The only way he is going to get ascended gear is by grinding, whether its fractals or dailies.

Exactly. Which is why the counterargument to “optional” is wrong.

If I found anything else to be fun, then why does it have to be a grind as well? “Grind” is such a relative term that I can find anything grindy, including something as simple as doing map completion.

Lets say, you really want to play tennis. But to play tennis, you need $1000 dollars. You don’t have $1000 dollars. That’s you can play table tennis, that’s free. Does that solve the issue of that tennis costing $1000 sucks? NO.

OP wants BiS gear. BiS gear requires grinding. You tell him not to get BiS gear, does that change the fact that BiS gear requires grinding? NO.

Have I ever disagreed that BiS slot requires “grinding”? I don’t think you get where I am coming from. That being said, “grind” is a really relative term like I said before; it’s entirely subjective.

Lol, so where are you coming from? You started replying to me because you said getting ascended gear is optional. That’s true, but so is everything else in this game, so that argument is moot. OP finds the idea of gearing up to be his type of fun, but the process involved is demonstrated to clearly not be.\

After your edit: No. You’re missing the point. Why can’t his goal be to get ascended gear. What do you say to that then? No, you don’t get it, you won’t need it anyways? Wtf?

kKagari.6804:

OP wants BiS gear. BiS gear requires grinding. You tell him not to get BiS gear, does that change the fact that BiS gear requires grinding? NO.

The point of playing video games is to have fun. It’s up to each individual player to determine for themselves what is and is not fun. If having virtual stuff if fun, go for it. If obtaining that virtual stuff isn’t fun, either set new parameters of what is and isn’t fun or go play something else. Again, it’s just that simple, folks. It REALLY is.

darkace.8925:

kKagari.6804:

OP wants BiS gear. BiS gear requires grinding. You tell him not to get BiS gear, does that change the fact that BiS gear requires grinding? NO.

The point of playing video games is to have fun. It’s up to each individual player to determine for themselves what is and is not fun. If having virtual stuff if fun, go for it. If obtaining that virtual stuff isn’t fun, either set new parameters of what is and isn’t fun or go play something else. Again, it’s just that simple, folks. It REALLY is.

Why are you quoting me if you didn’t even read it at all. Telling someone not to do something doesn’t make that something not faulty, if it was deemed faulty.

Having virtual items is fun for the OP. The process designed for it is not. It could be; it isn’t.

kKagari.6804:

darkace.8925:

kKagari.6804:

Can I do the uber challenging fractal level 50 without ascended gear? nope.

Fractals of the Mist is an infinite dungeon. So what you’re complaining about is having to grind for gear so that you can run a dungeon whose sole purpose, it’s very nature, is nothing but a grind for gear. Did you think about that, even a little, before you clicked “Reply”?

kKagari.6804:

Ascended gear could have been gotten by completing really challenging fun content once, but instead, we have objectives that involve lots of grind.

Sure, it could. But then we’d be trading “this game is too much of a grind” complaints for “this game is too hard” complaints. And then what?

Nice deflection. Issue at hand is if you can do fractal 50 without ascended gear. Answer was no, answer is still no. Try harder.

Oh and, thats totally cool that you want to replace player skill with time played, even though it is completely 180 from the original Arenanet’s design philosophy. Heaven forbid, making games challenging, who would ever dream of that.

So i want something, and wont settle for less. But i wont work for it, so i should get it for free? Because anything less than that is grind?

Would you say fighting games like Tekken is a grind? Because according to you if I want to be good at it (or not suck) and im forced to play more than once i’m being forced to grind. How dare they!

It the game wants you to grind it would multiply the exp you need to lvl by 1000x and decrease the droprates by 100% while the differences between exotics and ascended would be +50%

Orion the Cursed.1206:

kKagari.6804:

darkace.8925:

kKagari.6804:

Can I do the uber challenging fractal level 50 without ascended gear? nope.

Fractals of the Mist is an infinite dungeon. So what you’re complaining about is having to grind for gear so that you can run a dungeon whose sole purpose, it’s very nature, is nothing but a grind for gear. Did you think about that, even a little, before you clicked “Reply”?

kKagari.6804:

Ascended gear could have been gotten by completing really challenging fun content once, but instead, we have objectives that involve lots of grind.

Sure, it could. But then we’d be trading “this game is too much of a grind” complaints for “this game is too hard” complaints. And then what?

Nice deflection. Issue at hand is if you can do fractal 50 without ascended gear. Answer was no, answer is still no. Try harder.

Oh and, thats totally cool that you want to replace player skill with time played, even though it is completely 180 from the original Arenanet’s design philosophy. Heaven forbid, making games challenging, who would ever dream of that.

So i want something, and wont settle for less. But i wont work for it, so i should get it for free? Because anything less than that is grind?

Would you say fighting games like Tekken is a grind? Because according to you if I want to be good at it (or not suck) and im forced to play more than once i’m being forced to grind. How dare they!

It the game wants you to grind it would multiply the exp you need to lvl by 1000x and decrease the droprates by 100% while the differences between exotics and ascended would be +50%

What are you on about? The content to achieve ascended gear requires no difficulty at all, just repetition, how is that not a grind? It could’ve been backed by some genuinely challenging/fun content, it isn’t.

kKagari.6804:

Nice deflection. Issue at hand is if you can do fractal 50 without ascended gear. Answer was no, answer is still no. Try harder.

I don’t need to deflect and I don’t need to “try harder”. I said there was no aspect of this game in which a player could not participate without Ascended gear. So long as that remains a truth, and it IS the truth, I don’t need to deflect and I certainly don’t need to “try harder”.

kKagari.6804:

Oh and, thats totally cool that you want to replace player skill with time played, even though it is completely 180 from the original Arenanet’s design philosophy. Heaven forbid, making games challenging, who would ever dream of that.

ArenaNet never said this game would be challenging. EVERYTHING leading up to release indicated it would be just the opposite. I personally find the game too easy, but since you seem keen to put words in my mouth, I guess I should have checked with you first. For the record, I thought I would have preferred sideways-progression when it came to gear; but I’ll have to check with kKagari to see what my actual thoughts on the subject are.

kKagari.6804:

Heijincks.9267:

kKagari.6804:

Heijincks.9267:

kKagari.6804:

Heijincks.9267:

kKagari.6804:

This whole counter argument of ‘you don’t need to do it’ is ridiculous. I don’t need to do anything in this game, should I completely stop playing it then? It doesn’t make the content designed any less grindy. OP wants ascended gear, and the path towards getting ascended gear is grindy, there is no argument about that.

For example, if you can get an ascended ring by beating a boss without pressing 1, it’d be a challenging way to get an ascended ring, that wouldn’t be grinding. It might even be fun. And OP wouldn’t be making this topic.

Ascended gear is a grind.

If you stopped playing the game, it would defeat the entire purpose of the counterargument to that original counterargument.

Which is why the counterargument to the “You don’t need to…” argument doesn’t work. You don’t need to use /dance to play the game. Does the counterargument work here too?

What are you on about? Clearly quitting the game is not supposed to be a solution. The thing is, relative to what O kitten aying; if he finds gearing up fun, why does it need to be a grind? The only way he is going to get ascended gear is by grinding, whether its fractals or dailies.

Exactly. Which is why the counterargument to “optional” is wrong.

If I found anything else to be fun, then why does it have to be a grind as well? “Grind” is such a relative term that I can find anything grindy, including something as simple as doing map completion.

Lets say, you really want to play tennis. But to play tennis, you need $1000 dollars. You don’t have $1000 dollars. That’s you can play table tennis, that’s free. Does that solve the issue of that tennis costing $1000 sucks? NO.

OP wants BiS gear. BiS gear requires grinding. You tell him not to get BiS gear, does that change the fact that BiS gear requires grinding? NO.

Have I ever disagreed that BiS slot requires “grinding”? I don’t think you get where I am coming from. That being said, “grind” is a really relative term like I said before; it’s entirely subjective.

Lol, so where are you coming from? You started replying to me because you said getting ascended gear is optional. That’s true, but so is everything else in this game, so that argument is moot. OP finds the idea of gearing up to be his type of fun, but the process involved is demonstrated to clearly not be.\

After your edit: No. You’re missing the point. Why can’t his goal be to get ascended gear. What do you say to that then? No, you don’t get it, you won’t need it anyways? Wtf?

No, my original post was that the “optional” counterargument doesn’t work because you can still play the game quite well without it to pretty much the full extent. Sure, everything else is optional as well. I don’t have to move out of Queensdale, but how can I play the game if I did that? In exotics, and even rares, I can still do pretty much everything I want to in the game. In other words, it’s more about practicality.

As for the OP’s goal of getting ascended gear: What’s stopping him? The grind? He wants to get something that’s for now trivial in this game. Why shouldn’t it be grindy is a better question really.

On a side note, how many people do you think will complain about ascended if it was included at launch? In contrast, if exotics never existed at launch, and the highest tier was rares, what if exotics was introduced on Nov. 15 instead of ascended? Would there be an uproar too?

darkace.8925:

kKagari.6804:

Nice deflection. Issue at hand is if you can do fractal 50 without ascended gear. Answer was no, answer is still no. Try harder.

I don’t need to deflect and I don’t need to “try harder”. I said there was no aspect of this game in which a player could not participate without Ascended gear. So long as that remains a truth, and it IS the truth, I don’t need to deflect and I certainly don’t need to “try harder”.

kKagari.6804:

Oh and, thats totally cool that you want to replace player skill with time played, even though it is completely 180 from the original Arenanet’s design philosophy. Heaven forbid, making games challenging, who would ever dream of that.

ArenaNet never said this game would be challenging. EVERYTHING leading up to release indicated it would be just the opposite. I personally find the game too easy, but since you seem keen to put words in my mouth, I guess I should have checked with you first. For the record, I thought I would have preferred sideways-progression when it came to gear; but I’ll have to check with kKagari to see what my actual thoughts on the subject are.

You can’t participate successfully in fractal level 50, without ascended gear. Telling me that why complain about gear grind in a dungeon for grinding gear, is a deflection. You did not address the issue that you cannot participate in fractal 50 without ascended gear, instead, you made a statement of no relevance to the issue at hand .’. you deflected.

Heijincks.9267:

kKagari.6804:

Heijincks.9267:

kKagari.6804:

Heijincks.9267:

kKagari.6804:

Heijincks.9267:

kKagari.6804:

This whole counter argument of ‘you don’t need to do it’ is ridiculous. I don’t need to do anything in this game, should I completely stop playing it then? It doesn’t make the content designed any less grindy. OP wants ascended gear, and the path towards getting ascended gear is grindy, there is no argument about that.

For example, if you can get an ascended ring by beating a boss without pressing 1, it’d be a challenging way to get an ascended ring, that wouldn’t be grinding. It might even be fun. And OP wouldn’t be making this topic.

Ascended gear is a grind.

If you stopped playing the game, it would defeat the entire purpose of the counterargument to that original counterargument.

Which is why the counterargument to the “You don’t need to…” argument doesn’t work. You don’t need to use /dance to play the game. Does the counterargument work here too?

What are you on about? Clearly quitting the game is not supposed to be a solution. The thing is, relative to what O kitten aying; if he finds gearing up fun, why does it need to be a grind? The only way he is going to get ascended gear is by grinding, whether its fractals or dailies.

Exactly. Which is why the counterargument to “optional” is wrong.

If I found anything else to be fun, then why does it have to be a grind as well? “Grind” is such a relative term that I can find anything grindy, including something as simple as doing map completion.

Lets say, you really want to play tennis. But to play tennis, you need $1000 dollars. You don’t have $1000 dollars. That’s you can play table tennis, that’s free. Does that solve the issue of that tennis costing $1000 sucks? NO.

OP wants BiS gear. BiS gear requires grinding. You tell him not to get BiS gear, does that change the fact that BiS gear requires grinding? NO.

Have I ever disagreed that BiS slot requires “grinding”? I don’t think you get where I am coming from. That being said, “grind” is a really relative term like I said before; it’s entirely subjective.

Lol, so where are you coming from? You started replying to me because you said getting ascended gear is optional. That’s true, but so is everything else in this game, so that argument is moot. OP finds the idea of gearing up to be his type of fun, but the process involved is demonstrated to clearly not be.\

After your edit: No. You’re missing the point. Why can’t his goal be to get ascended gear. What do you say to that then? No, you don’t get it, you won’t need it anyways? Wtf?

No, my original post was that the “optional” counterargument doesn’t work because you can still play the game quite well without it to pretty much the full extent. Sure, everything else is optional as well. I don’t have to move out of Queensdale, but how can I play the game if I did that? In exotics, and even rares, I can still do pretty much everything I want to in the game. In other words, it’s more about practicality.

As for the OP’s goal of getting ascended gear: What’s stopping him? The grind? He wants to get something that’s for now trivial in this game. Why shouldn’t it be grindy is a better question really.

On a side note, how many people do you think will complain about ascended if it was included at launch? In contrast, if exotics never existed at launch, and the highest tier was rares, what if exotics was introduced on Nov. 15 instead of ascended? Would there be an uproar too?

Actually, there’s no indication as to whether ascended gear is trivial or not. For starters, OP might really enjoy fractals, but you require ascended gear for that. Arenanet have already indicated agony on becoming integral to their game design for later on, so there’s that to hold on to as well.

Deleting an alt to me would be like deleting a family member.

kKagari.6804:

Heijincks.9267:

kKagari.6804:

Heijincks.9267:

kKagari.6804:

Heijincks.9267:

kKagari.6804:

Heijincks.9267:

kKagari.6804:

This whole counter argument of ‘you don’t need to do it’ is ridiculous. I don’t need to do anything in this game, should I completely stop playing it then? It doesn’t make the content designed any less grindy. OP wants ascended gear, and the path towards getting ascended gear is grindy, there is no argument about that.

For example, if you can get an ascended ring by beating a boss without pressing 1, it’d be a challenging way to get an ascended ring, that wouldn’t be grinding. It might even be fun. And OP wouldn’t be making this topic.

Ascended gear is a grind.

If you stopped playing the game, it would defeat the entire purpose of the counterargument to that original counterargument.

Which is why the counterargument to the “You don’t need to…” argument doesn’t work. You don’t need to use /dance to play the game. Does the counterargument work here too?

What are you on about? Clearly quitting the game is not supposed to be a solution. The thing is, relative to what O kitten aying; if he finds gearing up fun, why does it need to be a grind? The only way he is going to get ascended gear is by grinding, whether its fractals or dailies.

Exactly. Which is why the counterargument to “optional” is wrong.

If I found anything else to be fun, then why does it have to be a grind as well? “Grind” is such a relative term that I can find anything grindy, including something as simple as doing map completion.

Lets say, you really want to play tennis. But to play tennis, you need $1000 dollars. You don’t have $1000 dollars. That’s you can play table tennis, that’s free. Does that solve the issue of that tennis costing $1000 sucks? NO.

OP wants BiS gear. BiS gear requires grinding. You tell him not to get BiS gear, does that change the fact that BiS gear requires grinding? NO.

Have I ever disagreed that BiS slot requires “grinding”? I don’t think you get where I am coming from. That being said, “grind” is a really relative term like I said before; it’s entirely subjective.

Lol, so where are you coming from? You started replying to me because you said getting ascended gear is optional. That’s true, but so is everything else in this game, so that argument is moot. OP finds the idea of gearing up to be his type of fun, but the process involved is demonstrated to clearly not be.\

After your edit: No. You’re missing the point. Why can’t his goal be to get ascended gear. What do you say to that then? No, you don’t get it, you won’t need it anyways? Wtf?

No, my original post was that the “optional” counterargument doesn’t work because you can still play the game quite well without it to pretty much the full extent. Sure, everything else is optional as well. I don’t have to move out of Queensdale, but how can I play the game if I did that? In exotics, and even rares, I can still do pretty much everything I want to in the game. In other words, it’s more about practicality.

As for the OP’s goal of getting ascended gear: What’s stopping him? The grind? He wants to get something that’s for now trivial in this game. Why shouldn’t it be grindy is a better question really.

On a side note, how many people do you think will complain about ascended if it was included at launch? In contrast, if exotics never existed at launch, and the highest tier was rares, what if exotics was introduced on Nov. 15 instead of ascended? Would there be an uproar too?

Actually, there’s no indication whether as to ascended gear is trivial or not. For starters, OP might really enjoy fractals, but you require ascended gear for that. Arenanet have already indicated agony on becoming integral to their game design for later on, so there’s that to hold on to as well.

True, but the current trend is that ascended are getting increasingly easier to get over time. I wouldn’t be surprised that by the time fully ascended sets are out, that they would be just a slight bit more difficult to obtain than our current standard exotics.

But if OP really likes fractals, he shouldn’t really be having that many problems getting ascended in the first place. Most hardcore fractals runners actually have an excess of ascended gear as demonstrated by some posters in the Crafting subforum.

kKagari.6804:

For starters, OP might really enjoy fractals, but you require ascended gear for that.

False. Absolutely, unequivocally false.

Ascended gear could originally be obtained only in Fractals of the Mist. If one could not run Fractals of the Mist without Ascended gear, then no one would have been able to obtain Ascended in the first place. You’ve fabricated a Catch 22 that doesn’t exist, because players DID obtain Ascended gear. Thus, they MUST have run Fractals of the Mist WITHOUT Ascended gear. Accordingly, Ascended gear is NOT required for Fractals of the Mist.

“Try harder.”

Level 50. Read. Take your ascended gear off and do level 50. You can do level 1 without asc gear. Yes. We are talking about level 50.

It isn’t required for level 1, it is required for level 50. I’m not talking about level 1, 15 or 39. Level 50.

You have to stop changing the parameters of the argument, it is unbecoming.

Can you do level 50 successfully without ascended gear. No.

I like how you escaped our original argument and latched onto this one.

kKagari.6804:

Level 50. Read. Take your ascended gear off and do level 50. You can do level 1 without asc gear. Yes. We are talking about level 50.

Stop deflecting. I’m going to ask you this one more time, and I’m going to make it as easy on you as I can by making it multiple choice.

Can I participate in Fractals of the Mist without Ascended gear?
– Yes?
– No?

darkace.8925:

kKagari.6804:

Level 50. Read. Take your ascended gear off and do level 50. You can do level 1 without asc gear. Yes. We are talking about level 50.

Stop deflecting. I’m going to ask you this one more time, and I’m going to make it as easy on you as I can by making it multiple choice.

Can I participate in Fractals of the Mist without Ascended gear?
– Yes?
– No?

You haven’t answered our original argument, you original deflection. Can you do Fotm 50 without ascended gear?

Unbecoming.

As an altoholic myself, I’m in a similar situation to the OP, but I’ve gone about it from a totally different angle. While all of my characters are on the cusp of level 80 (79, to be exact), the highest level zone I’ve visited is the 15 – 25 zones. I’m not fussing myself about getting Ascended gear for all of my characters; I’m aiming to equip them with Exotics, and then maaaaybe I’ll get a few Ascended pieces IF I like them. (Currently the only one that’s a must-have is one of the Quivers, and that’s just because I want a Quiver backpiece for my Ranger, not because of the stats.)

Who knows what ANet will do down the line? Perhaps they’ll introduce ways for Crafters to craft their own Ascended gear, or to upgrade Exotics to Ascended level. I’m just going to focus on the step directly in front of me, and not stress about something that may have changed dramatically by the time I get to it.

Zaxares.5419:

As an altoholic myself, I’m in a similar situation to the OP, but I’ve gone about it from a totally different angle. While all of my characters are on the cusp of level 80 (79, to be exact), the highest level zone I’ve visited is the 15 – 25 zones.

So you’ve been playing Trade Wars 2 in order to fund craft-levelling all your characters?
Sorry if I’m completely off the mark but, how else did you manage level 79 on all chars in only the low level zones?

Edit: just curious

SadieDeAtreia.8912:

Zaxares.5419:

As an altoholic myself, I’m in a similar situation to the OP, but I’ve gone about it from a totally different angle. While all of my characters are on the cusp of level 80 (79, to be exact), the highest level zone I’ve visited is the 15 – 25 zones.

So you’ve been playing Trade Wars 2 in order to fund craft-levelling all your characters?
Sorry if I’m completely off the mark but, how else did you manage level 79 on all chars in only the low level zones?

The low level experience gain is still pretty good, especially with the dailies now. I’ve gotten two alts to level 40s just doing dailies in lowbie areas

I am curious if there would be quite so many people defending the present state of Ascended gear if the Agony mechanic was implemented across the game world, instead of only in the Fractals.

That’s not to say the OP is rationalized. He’s not. He’s nuts. But I am legitimately curious if people would be quite so defensive of the poor implementation of Ascended gear at present if it were needed everywhere, instead of just the Fractals. I suspect there would be much more disagreement in this thread if that were true.

And I do actually expect to see Agony elsewhere eventually. I have a feeling they won’t keep it confined to the Fractals. It just seems wasteful for that to be the only place it’s used in.

kKagari.6804:

You haven’t answered our original argument, you original deflection. Can you do Fotm 50 without ascended gear?

Unbecoming.

“Our original argument”?

I posted, and I quote, “Bull[expletive]! There is not one single aspect of this game in which you cannot participate without a full set of Ascended gear. Not. One. Single. Aspect.” before you even entered the discussion. If you want to address original arguments, how about starting with that one? Show me why that statement is false, or show my the door hitting you on the derriere on your way out.

You cannot participate in level 50 fractals without ascended gear. o m f g. level 50 fractals is not level 1 fractal, they are different. You get different loot, you get different enemy arrangements. You get agony. If a person wants to do level 50 fractals, they will need ascended gear.

I don’t care if you can do fractal 1 naked. It is irrelevant to the discussion.

critickitten.1498:

I am curious if there would be quite so many people defending the present state of Ascended gear if the Agony mechanic was implemented across the game world, instead of only in the Fractals.

That’s not to say the OP is rationalized. He’s not. He’s nuts. But I am legitimately curious if people would be quite so defensive of the poor implementation of Ascended gear at present if it were needed everywhere, instead of just the Fractals. I suspect there would be much more disagreement in this thread if that were true.

And I do actually expect to see Agony elsewhere eventually. I have a feeling they won’t keep it confined to the Fractals. It just seems wasteful for that to be the only place it’s used in.

Agony mechanic is pretty dopey, keep it locked in the fractals and let tier 1 of the verticle gear ladder be a lesson in how not to implement it.

thisolderhead.5127:

Agony mechanic is pretty dopey, keep it locked in the fractals and let tier 1 of the verticle gear ladder be a lesson in how not to implement it.

No disagreement here.

I just don’t know if the devs will end up thinking the same way. They went through the trouble of creating a brand new special dynamically scaling condition just for this dungeon….so it would strike me as odd if they only intended to use it in the Fractals and never anywhere else. Doesn’t seem like a good use of resources.

critickitten.1498:

I am curious if there would be quite so many people defending the present state of Ascended gear if the Agony mechanic was implemented across the game world, instead of only in the Fractals.

That’s not to say the OP is rationalized. He’s not. He’s nuts. But I am legitimately curious if people would be quite so defensive of the poor implementation of Ascended gear at present if it were needed everywhere, instead of just the Fractals. I suspect there would be much more disagreement in this thread if that were true.

And I do actually expect to see Agony elsewhere eventually. I have a feeling they won’t keep it confined to the Fractals. It just seems wasteful for that to be the only place it’s used in.

I think the whole idea of agony & its resistance is stupid to begin with. By “Agony elsewhere” do you mean in lv1 zones as well? Because i dont see how i can play with that. On the other hand if certain lv 80 areas have very high agony damage, i wont be bothered to explore that area. In such a case, the developers lose because the effort they put into designing that area is effort wasted on their part. (this is the case with fractals, i cant be bothered even though i have 50+ laurels which i got for ABSOLUTELY FREE because i would have done dailies anyways).

critickitten.1498:

thisolderhead.5127:

Agony mechanic is pretty dopey, keep it locked in the fractals and let tier 1 of the verticle gear ladder be a lesson in how not to implement it.

No disagreement here.

I just don’t know if the devs will end up thinking the same way. They went through the trouble of creating a brand new special dynamically scaling condition just for this dungeon….so it would strike me as odd if they only intended to use it in the Fractals and never anywhere else. Doesn’t seem like a good use of resources.

They could’ve just done fractals with randomized enemies, even that would be more fun than agony.

I did see a comment out there somewhere stating it was going to be, but basically they were backing out…You might recall the one I’m referring to.

The scaling aside from Agony/Resist is a lot more interesting and would allow any encounters lower than verticle-top to scale up… it makes sense in my head and fills the encounters gaps/issues with the gear pathways I’ve been mumbling about.

kKagari.6804:

critickitten.1498:

thisolderhead.5127:

Agony mechanic is pretty dopey, keep it locked in the fractals and let tier 1 of the verticle gear ladder be a lesson in how not to implement it.

No disagreement here.

I just don’t know if the devs will end up thinking the same way. They went through the trouble of creating a brand new special dynamically scaling condition just for this dungeon….so it would strike me as odd if they only intended to use it in the Fractals and never anywhere else. Doesn’t seem like a good use of resources.

They could’ve just done fractals with randomized enemies, even that would be more fun than agony.

RNG enemies would have made for the best forum threads!

thisolderhead.5127:

kKagari.6804:

critickitten.1498:

thisolderhead.5127:

Agony mechanic is pretty dopey, keep it locked in the fractals and let tier 1 of the verticle gear ladder be a lesson in how not to implement it.

No disagreement here.

I just don’t know if the devs will end up thinking the same way. They went through the trouble of creating a brand new special dynamically scaling condition just for this dungeon….so it would strike me as odd if they only intended to use it in the Fractals and never anywhere else. Doesn’t seem like a good use of resources.

They could’ve just done fractals with randomized enemies, even that would be more fun than agony.

RNG enemies would have made for the best forum threads!

I think that happened when diablo 2 did that with act 5. lol.

SadieDeAtreia.8912:

Zaxares.5419:

As an altoholic myself, I’m in a similar situation to the OP, but I’ve gone about it from a totally different angle. While all of my characters are on the cusp of level 80 (79, to be exact), the highest level zone I’ve visited is the 15 – 25 zones.

So you’ve been playing Trade Wars 2 in order to fund craft-levelling all your characters?
Sorry if I’m completely off the mark but, how else did you manage level 79 on all chars in only the low level zones?

Edit: just curious

No Trade Wars required. What I did was full explorations of all the low-level zones. For instance, let’s take my Human Mesmer. Started in Queensdale, but after I completed Queensdale on her, I then went to Wayfarer Foothills, completed that map, then went to Metrica Province, completed, Plains of Ashford, completed, and Caledon Forest, completed. (I think she was about level 50 by the time this happened.) I then started on the 15-25 zones, starting with Kessex Hills, then moving on to Snowden Drifts and Diessa Plateau (where I’m currently at).

Between those, Dailies, some crafting (all my alts are currently about rank 150 in their respective crafting disciplines) and Festival events, it’s not very hard to gain levels at all.

I kinda feel for ANet… they’re really kitten if they do, kitten if they don’t.

Players complain that there’s no “gear progression”, ANet caves in and puts +1 gear in. Players now complain that there’s a “gear treadmill”… I don’t get it. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. I think it’s a bit of a shame if people missed out on all the sweet little things in this game because they’re obsessing over the grind/not-grind.

Personally I’d love if they just went pure “horizontal” with new gear, i.e. all new cosmetics. However, for a game that’s buy-to-play with a very humble cash shop, I can understand if this may be prohibitively expensive.

As an aside, this game is impossibly more forgiving than 95% of persistent-world games out there, and it’s extremely generous for the small amount of money you ever really have to put in. The MMO I migrated from had gold-sucking mechanics, cash shop items and RNG stuff that would make half the players on here turn white.

Simple question that wins this argument:

“How does Ascended gear make the game better for the players?” Because, honestly, there are plenty of people negatively affected by this, but I don’t see anyone who benefits.

The content itself is fine, FotM is a fun dungeon. However, you don’t need Ascended gear for FotM. Why can’t we have it without Ascended? Etc.

/thread?

critickitten.1498:

I am curious if there would be quite so many people defending the present state of Ascended gear if the Agony mechanic was implemented across the game world, instead of only in the Fractals.

That’s not to say the OP is rationalized. He’s not. He’s nuts. But I am legitimately curious if people would be quite so defensive of the poor implementation of Ascended gear at present if it were needed everywhere, instead of just the Fractals. I suspect there would be much more disagreement in this thread if that were true.

And I do actually expect to see Agony elsewhere eventually. I have a feeling they won’t keep it confined to the Fractals. It just seems wasteful for that to be the only place it’s used in.

Wasteful, maybe to harsh a word; but a waste of developers time, possibly.

Do the new ways to get ascended gear included AR?!?

Follow-up; If they include future AR content (with current stati of being able to acquire AR .. no adding crafted AR items etc…) …. what happens to those that didn’t Grind AR items???

I have 4 characters, all in exotics and none of them have any ascended gear at all. Why? Because I don’t want to do FotM. For all other aspects of the game it is not required. Will I get any? Yeah…through laurels I probably will, but I’m not in a rush. If I play, which is less and less these days to be honest, I have 4 characters to choose from, providing me with a bit of variety. Deleting them because they don’t have best in slot would be a complete waste of the time I put in levelling them, especially as in every single aspect of the game other than level 20+ FotM there is NO discernable difference in performance and no requirement to have ascended.

90% of the game is just one big zergfest anyway…so who cares what gear you are in? No one can tell at the moment what your dps is (for example), including you. So who cares? The only thing you can actually tell about another player who you group with is whether they stay alive well, rez downed players and know the tactics or not. This crazy need to have BiS is based on what? kitten?

Even in WoW, which everyone keeps banging on about, quite frequently you would encounter players who had all the best gear and no idea how to stay out of fire or you know…actually play the game. You know the type, the ones who hang around repeatedly spamming their gearscore and flapping around on some stupid mount to show off. Get them in a raid though and thats where their flaws show up….

cargan.5689:

if this was any other game would people expect to be able to raid gear all their alts?

But this is not just any other game! This is the revolution. The No Grind game.
;)

Im pretty sure anet said they want to add a way to achieve laurels by other means, im guessing something to do with the live story.

So just scream AMUSE ME! in forums and everything will work out well. You are the one that chose your own path on this.

Hocofaisan.2593:

I just want to share that the current state of the game highly discourages alt play, as I currently estimate it will take the better half of 2013 to finish gearing my main.

I don’t play enough to warrant joining a large guild, so the only path to much of the ascended gear is via the laurel system (why should I benefit from the work of people who play daily several hours when I only play guildwars at most an hour a day?).

Even if I could find time to level my alts (when I log in, I end up using all my time on daily and monthly activity) once they are max level, it would take another half a year to gear them.

Just wanted to get that off my chest, thanks.

I don’t understand the hoopla.

I deleted a pair of 30ish alts so I could focus on gearing my most developed toon.
I generally have just enough play time per day to complete my daily, and make some progress towards my monthly.

Joining an uber guild isnt really fair to the other members, so the kitten laurel path is my only option to finishing my ascended set.

Yes, BiS is important to my fun, as I fully expect (and demand honestly, after all this effort) that agony spreads out to more portions of the game.

I still have interest in a tengu alt if that ever happens, so I will probably end up, retiring my current toon in favor of gearing that new one when the time comes.

Why is a slang vernacular for handicapping censored?

Hocofaisan.2593:

I don’t understand the hoopla.

I deleted a pair of 30ish alts so I could focus on gearing my most developed toon.
I generally have just enough play time per day to complete my daily, and make some progress towards my monthly.

Joining an uber guild isnt really fair to the other members, so the kitten laurel path is my only option to finishing my ascended set.

Yes, BiS is important to my fun, as I fully expect (and demand honestly, after all this effort) that agony spreads out to more portions of the game.

I still have interest in a tengu alt if that ever happens, so I will probably end up, retiring my current toon in favor of gearing that new one when the time comes.

I’d be curious to see a screenshot of your character select screen. But, assuming you actually did delete your characters… why? It makes no sense at all. You can be fully decked out in ascended jewelry, be sporting an approx. 7% damage increase (full berserker) and still provide me plenty of loot bags in WvW. The increase is so nominal that skill will still trump meager stats.

Not sure I’d have deleted them unless you planned to never ever ever play them again. I know I’ve deleted a ton of alts but only cuz they were sub-lvl 10 and I was experimenting with new professions. Also, I just like character creation.

I have 3 toons 45-65 that I’ve at one time or another called “my main.” I’ve finally decided which is truly my main, but I’m not going to delete them, even if there is little hope of getting them geared any time soon. Eventually, I’ll even hit 80 on my main lol.

I play extremely casually (1 hour a day, and not every day) and I have 5 alts. I see no problem with this.

Why? Because I don’t think I need ascended gear on them all. You don’t really need it at all and you definitely don’t need it on every character. Unless you’re really wanting to do WvW and Fractals on every single character.

Also I don’t understand how joining a large guild leads to you getting rewards other players have earned. You don’t get the guild commendations or whatever they’re called unless you join in with the event.

@OP: You will not be happy about your decision when they implement the rewards system for achievments done. Something they have said is in the making and should probably go live during the first 4 months of 2013 i.e during the Flame and Frost storyline.

They give us small portions of things to do while we wait for the major patches, March the WvW patch and presumably April the PvE patch with the achievment reward system, atleast thats what I think.

Going and deleting alts like that is just… I dont know what to call it.

Reason why things are currently so slow is because its a workup to the Flame and Frost climax, if they released the reward system in january, and ascended amulets available for purchase from fractals, we would have people buying it instantly then whining about how there is no end game.

Now we will probably be able to gear up our alts fairly fast when Flame and Frost comes to an end, then when the next thing starts we will have another slower progression until it reaches it climax and so on. That way there will always be a minor progression, 1-2 items per month to work for on one toon, then at the end you can most likely gear up the rest while you start anew on your “main”.

Even if they dropped a wide variety of gear, say a full ascended outfit with rings, armor weapons and all at the same time, along with a few new dungeons and unlimited grinding possibilites (no daily or weekly guild missions etc.), people would still be bored and cry for more since there werent enough dungeons, too much gear, unfriendly to alts and so on.

What we have now is a small progression that doesnt take you more than 2 hours per day (daily) and a few hours a week (T1 guild missions for 4×2 comms, although trek isnt rewarding it). Sure you cant miss a day without falling behind, but its not much to ask from the players. The rest of the time you can enjoy whatever you wanna do in-game.

I was negative at start to the system with laurels and how slowly you obtained them, had the same feel with guild missions. But the bright side is, I have to spend very little time on that and can enjoy the game where I want to. I never feel I must do this and that which in other games restricted me from playing alts at times.