Guild Wars 2

Prophet.6257:

Red Queen.7915:

“Oh, this thread again.”

Yes. This thread again. As often and as long as it takes for things to get finally equal.

So you also support more male iconics/biconics right?

:)

The problem with this is that GW2 is one of the VERY few games that actually have a primarily female cast of heroes. If there were plenty of games out there with all-female groups, I’d say yeah, gimme a bro for Braham! But since most times, we get an “all male, token female” cast, I’m very happy that GW2 did turn that trope upside-down.
Do I support more diverse male heroes in general? Of course. Do I want the stereotypical “white guy, early 30s, VERY heterosexual” in abundance in this game too? Not really. I mean, if there’s someone new coming along who gets tangled up with DE 2.0, and that someone happens to be male, I’m okay with that. But creating that character just to have one more guy in the group? I’m not okay with that. (Likewise, I don’t like female characters that get thrown in just to have a female character, such characters tend to suck, but since our starting position is way behind to begin with, I’ll be happier with “woman for woman’s sake” than with “man for man’s sake”.)

But think about it this way: If you notice that Destiny’s Edge 2.0 is four women (uhm, three women plus Taimi) and one man, then how rare is a case like that for people to notice? And if it is that rare, the problem lies not with GW2 having so many female heroes, it lies with the rest of the industry having so few. When “Band of Brodudes” is the norm for a video game cast, that is basically ignoring the other half of earth’s population. People who speak out about this and want to change this, and have so for decades. But very little changes. If now Anet comes along, says “we noticed we had only one man for the LS cast, here, have another”, I will be so very disappointed that the men complaining about that for a few months get the change asap, and thousands of women asking for a change for years get laughed at and ridiculed for wanting something that is not a total sausage fest.

Ohoni, I’m done talking to you, you seem to not even want to listen to reason, all you want is impose your worldview and your culture on “your” video game, while simultaneously denying anyone else the same “right”. If you don’t see how messed up that is, I’m afraid you’re a lost cause.
What you also do exceptionally well is twist people’s words around. “I don’t see why you’re so scared by the idea that things are becoming more equal.” I actually laughed out loud at this. This is the polar opposite of what I said. Your problem is that you see the status quo as normal, and any change to that is threatening your perceived “equality”. Just because you feel well represented in media doesn’t mean everyone is. As long as you run around with those blinkers on, I’m done trying to make you see what the problem is. As for your ridiculous accusation… no. Simply no. It’s things like these that make it hard for me to stay serious, because you obviously don’t, or if you are, you are the sort of person I usually aviod like the plague. Anyway, equality is exactly the thing I support. Problem is, there are so many more things catering to the male gaze than there are catering to the female gaze, which you refuse to acknowledge. And then you have the audacity to justify this by saying it empowers women when they show their sexuality, and that means “making things equal”? Holy moly, that’s bold. You do know that women dressing up in real life do so because they want to, but women in fiction do so because the (often male) artist made them? You know, fiction vs. reality?
If by “things getting more equal”, you mean that you actually think men are underpriviliged in that regard and need more catering to, then you clearly live in a fantasy world. Which would also sort of explain your other “reasonable arguments”, like the “women show more skin” one…
Either way, you really need to read up on how things really are, why blogs like BikiniArmorbattleDamage and Eschergirls are not depicting ridiculous exceptions but the rather sad norm, and why changing that norm would not hurt anybody. Until then, I won’kittense my time with you anymore.

WhiteRose.6934:

Scynte.1340:

Charr could stand to get more ‘skimpy’ armor sets, in general. They definitely need more leg armors with subligaria (for all armor classes), at the very least. Pants luck ridiculous on charr. Tights are even worse.

I’m with you on that. I want my Charr to wear more “savage” looking armor that reveals the beautiful fur and patterns I got to design them with.

Skimpy Charr make it happen!

Charr armor should be sufficient to be functional, but otherwise why would they wear clothes at all? They have ‘built-in’ clothing! Jewelry, sure, maybe something ornamental to indicate status, or even just a sense of style – but robes and pants and shirts and all that nonsense? Seems unlikely.

I demand generally better looking male gear as a whole.

For too long have MMORPG’s catered to female characters in massive bias, while male character fashion is horribly limited.

#genderequalityeverywhere

Malediktus.9250:

Skimpy armors need to be abolished. Noone in their right mind would fight with skimpy armor. Especially not heavy armor.

This argument is tired and stupid. No one fights with magic either.

CalamityO.2890:

Gonna get heat for this, but this thread is almost as bad threads demanding they can dye their character underwear. Pointless and useless.

Charr. Masquerade leggings. Dyeable undies.
I choose Humiliation quite frequently. =P

calyx.9086:

Malediktus.9250:

Skimpy armors need to be abolished. Noone in their right mind would fight with skimpy armor. Especially not heavy armor.

This argument is tired and stupid. No one fights with magic either.

You’d think that especially in a world that adds “magic” to the list of Things That Can Kill You people would choose reasonable attire over something that makes them look spectacular – when they get ripped apart by dragon minions. “Magic” and “unreasonable armour” do not operate on the same level of unrealistic.
__

“Charr. Masquerade leggings. Dyeable undies. "
Oh my. That looks quite unfortunate indeed.
Incidentally, the Masquerade armour is an awesome example of “not okay” armour. It should be thigh-highs with a bikini monokini for everyone

edit: got to get back to work. No time for forums today.

mondello.2940:

I think the whole idea that female characters have skimpier armour than guys is unfair tbh. I think there should be an option where no matter what gender your playing as you can choose between the female look and the more male look for every piece of armour that has a difference between male and females.
For example: the winged armour set on guys looks so boring and drab, but it looks amazing on girls. The same with the pheonix set.

No that is disgusting! No one wants to see hairy legs >.>

XApocalypse.8739:

mondello.2940:

I think the whole idea that female characters have skimpier armour than guys is unfair tbh. I think there should be an option where no matter what gender your playing as you can choose between the female look and the more male look for every piece of armour that has a difference between male and females.
For example: the winged armour set on guys looks so boring and drab, but it looks amazing on girls. The same with the pheonix set.

No that is disgusting! No one wants to see hairy legs >.>

Then explain charr.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

XApocalypse.8739:

mondello.2940:

I think the whole idea that female characters have skimpier armour than guys is unfair tbh. I think there should be an option where no matter what gender your playing as you can choose between the female look and the more male look for every piece of armour that has a difference between male and females.
For example: the winged armour set on guys looks so boring and drab, but it looks amazing on girls. The same with the pheonix set.

No that is disgusting! No one wants to see hairy legs >.>

Then explain charr.

In that case XApocalypse, the Phoenix and Winged should be ok on male Sylvari. Since they are plants they don’t have mammalian body hair at all, much less leg hair.

Ohoni, I’m done talking to you, you seem to not even want to listen to reason, all you want is impose your worldview and your culture on “your” video game, while simultaneously denying anyone else the same “right”. If you don’t see how messed up that is, I’m afraid you’re a lost cause.

I tend to feel the same about your viewpoint, but unlike you I’m not willing to write you off as a lost cause just because you disagree with me. I’m not so arrogant as to believe that just because I see things a certain way, anyone who disagrees with me must be wrong.

Most of the rest of what you had to say about “my” views seemingly had very little to do with anything I actually said though, and reinforces my belief that you aren’t actually paying attention to what I said, but are rather projecting onto me some strawman opponent that would would like to be facing in this discussion, one who’s horrible ideas you could more easily dismiss. I have no problem discussing and defending my positions, but I will waste no time defending the opinions of your strawmen.

You do know that women dressing up in real life do so because they want to, but women in fiction do so because the (often male) artist made them? You know, fiction vs. reality?

Nobody is making anyone dress a certain way in this game. There are sexy options, but there are plenty of less sexy options too, if someone is dressed in one of the 631 out of 2738 top/bottom light armor combos that look sexy, then it’s because they chose the sexy option. If they didn’t want to choose a sexy option, they’d have 2107 options to choose from.

Either way, you really need to read up on how things really are, why blogs like BikiniArmorbattleDamage and Eschergirls are not depicting ridiculous exceptions but the rather sad norm, and why changing that norm would not hurt anybody. Until then, I won’kittense my time with you anymore.

I’ve read those things in the past, but they typically do the same thing you are, overexagerating their case in a way that makes it more ridiculous than pointed. There are certainly places in which there is a disparity between sexualized women and sexualized men, but there are also places where the opposite is true, and too much attention is given lately to places that do things “wrong” than to places that do things right, such as your complaint about the 30% or so of GW2 light armors that are “too sexy” rather than the 70% that are not.

Ohoni.6057:

I’ve read those things in the past, but they typically do the same thing you are, overexagerating their case in a way that makes it more ridiculous than pointed. There are certainly places in which there is a disparity between sexualized women and sexualized men, but there are also places where the opposite is true, and too much attention is given lately to places that do things “wrong” than to places that do things right, such as your complaint about the 30% or so of GW2 light armors that are “too sexy” rather than the 70% that are not.

Come now, you know that anything more than 0% is unacceptable and needs to be “fixed”. Regardless of whether people really want it fixed or not. Or, strangely enough, whether it reflects reality or not.

You see, it doesn’t matter what reality is, or what fantasy is. What matters is what certain people perceive to be reality or fantasy. Certain people who have very loud, very opinionated voices about what is acceptable and what is not. And that’d be okay if there weren’t so many different ideas on what’s acceptable and what’s not.

And, naturally, how a whiff of the “inappropriate” masks over anything appropriate, and enacts a sort of tunnel vision about the matter. For instance, as I mentioned . . .

There is absolutely nobody who seems to care about what the charr or sylvari look like. There’s even less people convinced the asura look ‘sexy’ from what I hear.

And I was serious on my post earlier up this thread. If you get skimpy male armor, I want to have beer guts on males and females. And for sheer absolute-equality absurdity, let’s let asura get them too.

I like the idea of playing an overweight engineer asura who cosplays as Lynch’s Baron Harkonnen in his spare time.

Alga.6498:

I totally agree!
WE WANT more sexy armors for men!!
I just dislike how people running around with their Battle bikinis warriors and other kittenty armor combos while we cannot do the same for male characters.
I would love to create a sexy, handsome armor for mine male characters..
But ehh… the game history has always been generated-armor that all female should always show more skin than men.
Big plus if female characters shows legs and cleavages. -_-

You do realize that heavy armor has a decent (not big) set of sexy upper male armor in the form of barbaric, pit fighter, scallywag and Braham’s armor.

felessan.9587:

Also, can we please please please have light armor that doesn’t make my humanoid girls look like streetwalkers?

We have that kind of options, you just have to mix and match (see attachment below).

felessan.9587:

Or full-length dresses that actually go all the way around without ridiculous slits? I had to grind Arah and TA just to get a dress that was a full skirt, and not all of my characters like wearing skulls and plants!

For the full length without a snit, It’s something missing (unless you count the radion gear, which I don’t since it’s near unobtainable.)

If we are on the topic of wanting a certain armour set or look of the opposite gender,
Would it be possible to ask for the male version of barbaric set on my female guardian. ;P

Before anyone says anything, yes yes, put the guys in what ever thong you want, all I care about is the bewbs.

Unless they are making GW2 R-rated, I’m afraid that’s not gonna happen^^

Truth be told, I’d love to put a female guardian or warrior in Conan-esque attire, boobs out and all, as long as the “armour” emphasises the bad-derierre-ery (I really, really hate this filter…) and not the sexy. I mean, a huge, truly terrifying barbarian norn, running at you half naked and swinging a giant axe in your direction? Where do I sign up for this?
(If anyone posts a link to Age of Conan now, I will swing an axe in your general direction. That game is an abomination and shall not be spoken of!)

I Demand Crossdressing to be allowed

Rezzet.3614:

I Demand Crossdressing to be allowed

I am totally okay with this.

If it does, then I need to create a crossdressing charr.

If crossdressing were made possible, that would pretty much solve most of the problems. Butt-kicking, sexy, humble, tomboy, Frank N. Furter… oh the possibilities…

Alas, ‘tis only a dream, for the resources are not available…
Kidding, but I’m guessing that converting every single piece of armour twice (male skin for females, female skin for males) would eat up so much time and money it wouldn’t be worth the effort.

XApocalypse.8739:

No that is disgusting! No one wants to see hairy legs >.>

Hello, nobody reporting for duty!

(Do we all remember the childhood lesson of ‘to each his own’?)

PS- Hey Ohoni- I followed a link to a gaming news website and got hit in the face with this popup ad:
http://mmoculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/League-of-Angels.jpg

You were saying about string bikinis? lol

Try out “Mount Your Friends”. It’s a game entirely based on skimpy male armor, you’d love it.

Asgaeroth.6427:

Try out “Mount Your Friends”. It’s a game entirely based on skimpy male armor, you’d love it.

googled it and had a laugh, thanks

Hello, nobody reporting for duty!

(Do we all remember the childhood lesson of ‘to each his own’?)

PS- Hey Ohoni- I followed a link to a gaming news website and got hit in the face with this popup ad:
http://mmoculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/League-of-Angels.jpg

You were saying about string bikinis? lol

As I said, string bikinis, not an issue. For a female costume to match that male costume linked above, it would need to have a string back AND front, like omega-cameltoe. That would be the female equivalent to a sock, the male equivalent to a thong would just be a thong.

And yes, there are overly sexualized games. They are not relevant to discussions of games that are not those games.

I guess I should have asked sooner but you do know that image of the ‘male fantasy armor’ was a joke, right?

Every time I see scanty panty armor i’m going to think of you, Ohoni, forever.

I guess I should have asked sooner but you do know that image of the ‘male fantasy armor’ was a joke, right?

But that’s the point, you can joke about it, or you can claim it’s a serious point, but you can’t do both at once. Too many of these “comics/games/movies/etc. are sexist” memes are based around making a joke of it, but in doing so it destroys any credibility they might have. Instead fo making a 1:1 comparison of something that they find sexist to females to something equally sexist involving guys, they take something they find sexist, convert it into something using guys, and then dial it up to 12, like adding a kissy face, or twisting the spin an additional 10 degrees, or making the outfit even tighter, etc. It may be amusing, but it’s not going to convince anyone of anything they aren’t already convinced of.

+1 ohoni

Ohoni.6057:

But that’s the point, you can joke about it, or you can claim it’s a serious point, but you can’t do both at once.

I never claimed it was serious. It was a joke from inception to delivery, you were the one who took it seriously.

I never claimed it was serious. It was a joke from inception to delivery, you were the one who took it seriously.

Ok, so it’s a joke that GW2 needs more sexy male armors and/or less sexy female ones. Got it. Sorry I missed it, but you know that humor doesn’t always translate on the Internet.

Red Queen.7915:

Also, are you… did you just actually use the term female gaze in the very same way we use male gaze? You do realise that this doesn’t work? Sure, there are things that cater to the “female gaze”, like Chris Hemsworth running around shirtless in Thor and Thor 2. BUT. Those instances are few and far between. Generally, media serves the male gaze, not both, let alone the female gaze alone. And Thor? Yeah, he isn’t purposely sexy during a fight. Black Widow? Yeah, she is purposely sexy during a fight. Not. The. Same. Thing.
You are literally complaining about me derailing the discussion while turning my point upside down and doing a fair bit of derailing yourself. I didn’t even mention the whole “male gaze” thing. I said there’s a difference between a power fantasy and a sexual fantasy, which you apparently refuse to understand. Did you actually look at any of those links? There is a giant difference between displaying the (usually male) body as a symbol of power and displaying the (usually female) body as a symbol of desire and sexuality.
I have nothing against women (and men) being sexy. But that should not be a priority in a game about fighting dragons.

I’ve played this game of musical goalposts.

So you try to dress up a female to look powerful or heroic or whatever other nonsense you think is catered toward males, then you end up with identical armor on male and female so that everything is equal. . . But females DO NOT want to dress like males. So what makes clothing different for genders? People tend to look at real world fashion to decide that and females play a part in how these designs tend to. Pretending that women do not favor these trends and it’s some sort of patriarchal conspiracy is WAY beyond any discussion here.

Thor fighting sexy on screen being different than Black Widow fighting sexy on screen is true to you because you want it to be. To some of us, they’d recognize both fights as cheesy and exploitive ie the same, or just sexy people doing powerful things.

A Life lesson: perspective. It’s different for nearly everyone. All you really need to remember is there will be a lot of them so remember that when you start to generalize people.

Ohoni.6057:

I never claimed it was serious. It was a joke from inception to delivery, you were the one who took it seriously.

Ok, so it’s a joke that GW2 needs more sexy male armors and/or less sexy female ones. Got it. Sorry I missed it, but you know that humor doesn’t always translate on the Internet.

The picture that I posted was a joke.
If you really can’t understand what i’m saying I think i’m done talking with you too

Red Queen.7915:

Unless they are making GW2 R-rated, I’m afraid that’s not gonna happen^^

Truth be told, I’d love to put a female guardian or warrior in Conan-esque attire, boobs out and all, as long as the “armour” emphasises the bad-derierre-ery (I really, really hate this filter…) and not the sexy. I mean, a huge, truly terrifying barbarian norn, running at you half naked and swinging a giant axe in your direction? Where do I sign up for this?
(If anyone posts a link to Age of Conan now, I will swing an axe in your general direction. That game is an abomination and shall not be spoken of!)

Will she put a shirt on while she waits outside a dungeon for her party to get started? Because she probably wouldn’t seem quite as scary at that point.

The picture that I posted was a joke.
If you really can’t understand what i’m saying I think i’m done talking with you too

No, I get it, you explained quite clearly, this has all been intended in jest which is why it seemed so ridiculous. I’m sorry again that I took it at all seriously when it seems so obvious in hindsight that it was nonsense from the start.

Banana hammock.
Cucumber cuddler.
Ding-a-ling-sling.
Grapesmuggler.
Mankini.

http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/gw2-mini-southsun-faren-2.jpg

Perfect skimpy male armor for this thread.

FFXIV has the best gender equality when it comes to mmo’s I’ve ever seen. My male character wears the skimpiest pants(English, not American) into battle and it’s awesome.

But then plate mail on a guy, is almost exactly the same on a girl. It looks good, it’s fair for everyone.

So I’d be totally OK if they made some male sets in gw2 more skimpy, and less female sets skimpy.

I hope you realize the image I posted was serious. I would like to see that implemented, maybe it would incite me to make my first male.

eyestrain.3056:

Ohoni.6057:

Problem is, skimpy female armour is simply to be ogled on and skimpy male armour just makes males more heroic. In my opinion, “sexy male armour” just doesn’t exist.

No, -1. The whole “skin on a lady is demeaning, skin on a male is heroic” argument is nonsense. Skin is skin. If anything skin on a male is more demeaning, since real life male clothing typically covers more skin than female clothing, so it is even more of an exaggeration. You can argue that you want more female outfits that are less sexy, personally I’d like to see more skirts that are above the knee but below the starter light skirt, but don’t try to make it out to be some sort of double standard thing.

I’ve seen this trending lately and it’s pretty relevant to the argument… nsfw:
https://twitter.com/yesallwomen/status/510516783686877184

Thats the thing. Women IRL are so scantily clad that skimpy outfits are fine for them ingame. If there was an image of a woman in any of the ingame costumes, I could link it without mentioning nsfw.
You just proved that skimpy outfits are ok. gg

Leo G, you missed my point.
First, when I say “power fantasy” vs. “sexual fantasy”, I’m referring to the fact that usually the male characters get dressed for the former, the female characters for the latter – by the artist. That is the point. I linked a reference picture for a Red Sonja who looks equal in every way to Conan, clothing-wise and regarding the overall atmosphere of the picture. The one on the left is a sexual fantasy, think Conan wiggling his butt toward the “camera” and flexing his muscles flirtatously (which I’ve never seen outside of fanart; the Sonja picture migth be exaggerated, but it is a sadly accurate representation of her, style-wise. There are so kitten many boob-and-butt shots of her while in combat, it’s depressing). The one on the right is what Conan would look like if he were a woman. THAT is the difference. The left one is the one catering to a male reader who wants to ogle the female character (if those readers exist in significant numbers is debatable, but the industry seems to think that they do, and the male readership does very little to contradict this notion), the right one is catering to a woman who wants her heroine to be powerful and strong. Yet I rarely ever see women like that in my comics. As for your “women do not want to dress like men” remark: The women I know beg to differ. I’m certainly not the only one shopping regularly in the men’s department.that is not representative, but neither is your unsupported claim, so let’s call it quits on that one, shall we?
Second, Thor and Black Widow. My point is not that Thor fighting sexy is okay and Black Widow fighting sexy is not. If they were both fighting in a way that aims to be visually pleasing in that regard, I’d be totally okay with that. Thing is, Thor does not fight sexy. He fights to win. Black Widow poses frequently on-screen in a way that gives the audience a nice view of her cleavage and/or backside. THAT is the problem. If she were fighting to win, we wouldn’t even see her – she is a trained assassin, after all. But when we see her, when she has no choice, there are always several shots that aim to show off her… personal advantages. Thor gets ONE of those shots in each of his own films, and both of these are out of any sort of combat. This is the difference. Nothing more, nothing less.
Oh, and by the by, calling a powerful and heroic woman “nonsense”? Not a smart thing to say in this particular discussion.

And your other post?
“Will she put a shirt on while she waits outside a dungeon for her party to get started? Because she probably wouldn’t seem quite as scary at that point.”
Well, neither would Conan while he’s sitting on his butt waiting for the fighting to start. Should he put on a shirt, too? I mean, they both should, actually, because it can get quite chilly up in Frostgorge Sound when you are just sitting around, but I have this supsicion you are referring to her boobs being out. So are his. Depending on how much he works out, his might be bigger than hers. Your point?
A warrior should look scariest in battle. I’d say that any barbarian coming home to their family, cuddling their kids and relaxing in their backyard looks a lot less scary than the same person, male or female, on a battlefield covered in blood and screaming at you while they prepare to chop your head off. And those who would dismiss a woman in that situation because her boobs are out would be the first to die a gruesome death.
_

DigitalKirin: Grapesmuggler? oO Now that’s a new one.

Well as long as they don’t change the armor already in the game or at least give us an option on what style to choose I’ll be alright with it. I don’t think anyone wants to see my character in skimpy armor, unless over weights guy with a beard is your thing.

Red Queen.7915:

And those who would dismiss a woman in that situation because her boobs are out would be the first to die a gruesome death.

I always find these conversions funny. A female barbarian who looked like conan would have practically no boobs and look a lot like him. Features would be more gaunt. The training would eat the vast majority of fat in the breast. See actual female body builders. A lot of them only wear the slightest mention of a top to cover up nipples.

~ person who you used attend body building and strength contests

What people tend to think of is a woman who skirts the line between full blown muscle hulk and woman. That is not Conan or a barbarian.

That being said I would love it if my female chars could look like actual female bodybuilder/ strength trainers. screw clothes.

Also, to extend what DonQuack has said, most female warriors will tie down their breasts so they don’t get in the way.

Amazons, rumored to be the most powerful of all female warriors, would cut off at least one of their breasts to improve their archery.

But if we are going to go into practicality and reality, then offhand weapons will typically get in the way of fighting instead of improving it, particularly swords, axes, maces, torches, warhorns, and most focii. Shields will change the way you use your mainhand weapon, and daggers are typically used for quick parries or blocks, similar to gauntlets (which we don’t have).

First, when I say “power fantasy” vs. “sexual fantasy”, I’m referring to the fact that usually the male characters get dressed for the former, the female characters for the latter – by the artist

Not in cases where the guy barely has anything on. Straight men do not go for that. If you see a guy wearing very little, it is because they want to attract female customers. Yes, even in traditionally male genres, and this is done for the some reason that rom-coms typically hire attractive female actors, because even though they are aimed at the ladies, they also want to give the husbands and boyfriends a reason to say “ok, fair enough.”

I linked a reference picture for a Red Sonja who looks equal in every way to Conan, clothing-wise and regarding the overall atmosphere of the picture. The one on the left is a sexual fantasy, think Conan wiggling his butt toward the “camera” and flexing his muscles flirtatously

But the thing is that Sonja doesn’t do that. She wears the chainkini, but she’s always depicted, in official source material, as being powerful and fierce. So using her as an example of “bad sexy” is missing the mark entirely.

Now there are plenty of games and comics who do aim directly at male readers, and that’s ok. There’s nothing wrong with that. I don’t read their books, and you don’t have to either, but so long as some people enjoy them there’s no reason not to make them. They also make books like Anita Blake that are aimed squarely at exploiting the male image for female readers, and that’s ok too.

Yet I rarely ever see women like that in my comics.

You should read better comics. There aren’t many where the women are both tough and topless, but if you can enjoy comics where the ladies have a shirt on, there are plenty where they are just as tough and downright brutal as the guys. You might want to check out the recent Wonder Woman run, or the new Electra book.

As for your “women do not want to dress like men” remark: The women I know beg to differ. I’m certainly not the only one shopping regularly in the men’s department.that is not representative, but neither is your unsupported claim, so let’s call it quits on that one, shall we?

Your unrepresentative sample is unhelpful though. You may shop in the men’s section, but it’s called the men’s section for a reason, because on average women shop elsewhere. It’s fair to say that most women where some flavor of “girly” clothes, or they would stop making them. There’s no money to be made in clothes that do not sell. His point is a fair one, if they did have truly unisex outfits, the “manly woman” outfits would get used, but in very small numbers most likely. You see a lot more women in bodies at a ren faire than you do in tunics, and that by their own choice. There are a few relatively unisex outfits available to female characters in this game, and that’s probably plenty. You might prefer more, but unless you’re paying significantly more than the average customer, you do not justify the effort.

Second, Thor and Black Widow. My point is not that Thor fighting sexy is okay and Black Widow fighting sexy is not. If they were both fighting in a way that aims to be visually pleasing in that regard, I’d be totally okay with that. Thing is, Thor does not fight sexy. He fights to win. Black Widow poses frequently on-screen in a way that gives the audience a nice view of her cleavage and/or backside. THAT is the problem. If she were fighting to win, we wouldn’t even see her – she is a trained assassin, after all. But when we see her, when she has no choice, there are always several shots that aim to show off her… personal advantages. Thor gets ONE of those shots in each of his own films, and both of these are out of any sort of combat. This is the difference.

Black Widow, particularly the movie version, is a sexual being. She uses her looks to her advantage, and seduction is a part of her strength. You might find fault with that, but it’s a perfectly viable tactic when predominantly fighting men. And yes, you see her fight because otherwise it would be a boring movie. Male characters are less likely to use sex as a weapon, because they’d find it to be far less effective. They would rarely face an opponent for which it would be an asset to them. The fact that a female character can use sexuality as a weapon while men can’t is more a negative towards men than it is towards women. If you want to have less sexual female characters though, what about Sif? She is attractive, but also tough, and I can’t recall ever seeing her in a sexualized position, not even as sexualized as Thor, Tony, or Steve.

DonQuack.9025:

Red Queen.7915:

And those who would dismiss a woman in that situation because her boobs are out would be the first to die a gruesome death.

I always find these conversions funny. A female barbarian who looked like conan would have practically no boobs and look a lot like him. Features would be more gaunt. The training would eat the vast majority of fat in the breast. See actual female body builders. A lot of them only wear the slightest mention of a top to cover up nipples.

~ person who you used attend body building and strength contests

What people tend to think of is a woman who skirts the line between full blown muscle hulk and woman. That is not Conan or a barbarian.

That being said I would love it if my female chars could look like actual female bodybuilder/ strength trainers. screw clothes.

That body type is rather extreme, though. The “average warrior” would look muscly, but not Arnold-Schwarzenegger-as-Mr-Universe muscly, simply because they wouldn’t have the time to train for this body type. Yes, we have the norn, who look similar, but they are the exception in Tyria. And only the dudes, come to think of it…
Point is, real-life bodybuilders are not representative of the body type of fantasy warriors, let alone real historical warriors. There would be boobs, in some shape and form. It would just so happen that the male barbarian could appear to have them, too. Precisely because of the msucle tissue located there, and depending on the kind of training and the specific person, manboobs would form. So technically, all classic fantasy barbarians are running around with their boobs exposed. Conan included. So give him a bikini top, he’s not decent^^

Ah, I see Ohoni is cherry picking parts of my arguments out of context again. Lovely.
FYI, using her sexuality as a means of seduction to avoid a full-blown fight is NOT the same thing as getting into an actual fight and trying to be sexy in that fight. You, once again, fail to see the point.
Oh, and Sif is wearing a boobplate that could kill her in an actual fight. Not the best example. If (the fictional, dressed-by-someone-else) character Sif had to choose, I bet she would not ever choose a boob-shaped breastplate.

Ah, I see Ohini is cherry picking parts of my arguments out of context again. Lovely.

I address them all in context, I just pull out the quote so that you’re aware specifically which point I’m addressing.

Dude, you are completely igoring the second half of both the “women shopping men’s clothes” and the “Red Sonja’s boobs-and-butt shots” argument. That is taking the first hlaves of those statements out of context.

And I do read better comics. I just don’t find many of those. Which is the problem.
_
kitten, I swore I was done arguing with this guy -.-

I wouldn’t particularly use modern media (modern is a relative term) to distinguish what is and is not appropriate. A lot of it is meant to target audiences as opposed to being appropriate.

The idea of a femme fatale that’s both sexy and powerful coincides with the idea of a strong, independant black woman. It’s actually quite a sexist role that is being portrayed, but it’s overlooked which ends up helping to maintain these toxic ideals in society.

There was a video I saw that did a good job explaining how female roles portrayed in film media were not appropriate, even in films which most people would consider acceptable.

A little background info on Red Sonja’s roots, if anyone is interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shadow_of_the_Vulture

For another female adventurer associated with Conan, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valeria_%28Conan_the_Barbarian%29

Here’s what she wore:

She was tall, full-bosomed, and large-limbed, with compact shoulders. Her whole figure reflected an unusual strength, without detracting from the femininity of her appearance. She was all woman, in spite of her bearing and her garments. The latter were incongruous, in view of her present environs. Instead of a skirt she wore short, wide-legged silk breeches, which ceased a hand’s breadth short of her knees, and were upheld by a wide silken sash worn as a girdle. Flaring-topped boots of soft leather came almost to her knees, and a low-necked, wide-collared, wide-sleeved silk shirt completed her costume. On one shapely hip she wore a straight double-edged sword, and on the other a long dirk. Her unruly golden hair, cut square at her shoulders, was confined by a band of crimson satin. ~ Robert E. Howard, describing Valeria in the Conan story Red Nails.

Red Queen.7915:

Dude, you are completely igoring the second half of both the “women shopping men’s clothes” and the “Red Sonja’s boobs-and-butt shots” argument. That is taking the first hlaves of those statements out of context.

And I do read better comics. I just don’t find many of those. Which is the problem.
_
kitten, I swore I was done arguing with this guy -.-

But doesn’t both those arguments come down to “go where the money is”?

I was thinking more of the Paragon Gw1 armor where it would show more skin like the midriffs.

I thought this was a good example. Like the sun spear armor too, just exclude the blatant… Nipple…

More primitive charr armor too, I tried to make a Charr Shaman elementalist but I just couldn’t get past it.

Monk tattoos could also make a good return. Ritualistic armor too

Red Queen.7915:

DonQuack.9025:

Red Queen.7915:

And those who would dismiss a woman in that situation because her boobs are out would be the first to die a gruesome death.

I always find these conversions funny. A female barbarian who looked like conan would have practically no boobs and look a lot like him. Features would be more gaunt. The training would eat the vast majority of fat in the breast. See actual female body builders. A lot of them only wear the slightest mention of a top to cover up nipples.

~ person who you used attend body building and strength contests

What people tend to think of is a woman who skirts the line between full blown muscle hulk and woman. That is not Conan or a barbarian.

That being said I would love it if my female chars could look like actual female bodybuilder/ strength trainers. screw clothes.

That body type is rather extreme, though. The “average warrior” would look muscly, but not Arnold-Schwarzenegger-as-Mr-Universe muscly, simply because they wouldn’t have the time to train for this body type. Yes, we have the norn, who look similar, but they are the exception in Tyria. And only the dudes, come to think of it…
Point is, real-life bodybuilders are not representative of the body type of fantasy warriors, let alone real historical warriors. There would be boobs, in some shape and form. It would just so happen that the male barbarian could appear to have them, too. Precisely because of the msucle tissue located there, and depending on the kind of training and the specific person, manboobs would form. So technically, all classic fantasy barbarians are running around with their boobs exposed. Conan included. So give him a bikini top, he’s not decent^^

---

Ah, I see Ohoni is cherry picking parts of my arguments out of context again. Lovely.
FYI, using her sexuality as a means of seduction to avoid a full-blown fight is NOT the same thing as getting into an actual fight and trying to be sexy in that fight. You, once again, fail to see the point.
Oh, and Sif is wearing a boobplate that could kill her in an actual fight. Not the best example. If (the fictional, dressed-by-someone-else) character Sif had to choose, I bet she would not ever choose a boob-shaped breastplate.

I agree they should create an ugly body type which has body parts maimed. Didn’t know people were into that _
No one would use it though XD

BobbyT.7192:

Red Queen.7915:

Dude, you are completely igoring the second half of both the “women shopping men’s clothes” and the “Red Sonja’s boobs-and-butt shots” argument. That is taking the first hlaves of those statements out of context.

And I do read better comics. I just don’t find many of those. Which is the problem.
_
kitten, I swore I was done arguing with this guy -.-

But doesn’t both those arguments come down to “go where the money is”?

So you’re saying, because I tend to avoid buying stuff that feeds into the old tropes of bikini armour and damsels in distress, but instead choose to wait for something that doesn’t demean a fundamental part of my identity, I have no money?

Besides, “Sex sells” is a myth. Except when you’re selling sex. There’s a rather recent study that shows that when people – and that includes heterosexual men – watch commercials loaded with sexual imagery, they tend to remember that imagery, but not the product the commercial was for, and there are countless articles coming to that exact same conclusion. If you are selling something sexual, by all means, go for the sex. If you are trying to sell me a car, don’t drape a naked person over it. If you are trying to sell me food, don’t put it on someone’s naked butt. That is unsanitary.

mondello.2940:

I think the whole idea that female characters have skimpier armour than guys is unfair tbh. I think there should be an option where no matter what gender your playing as you can choose between the female look and the more male look for every piece of armour that has a difference between male and females.
…

I like this idea. I would also like to be able to wear all classes of armor on any profession in PvE. Also more variety in armor – some sleek full plated mail, some sleek leather and sleek cloth. (By sleek I mean form follows function with less protruding embellishments that serve no purpose.) Also more race specific armor so all races can have some interesting looks.