Guild Wars 2

This is obviously more of a personal opinion than anything else but… I really don’t like how elite specializations function. It feels to me that, to be as comparatively effective as everyone else, you are forced to use the elite specializations. It has been a while now and it seems like everybody is still using them in pvp and pve. They were hyped as a different way to play but they just feel outright better to me. Assuming this is true, this has implications for those who choose not to buy HoT in that they are inherently kitten because they didn’t purchase the expansion. Of course, you there are some viable builds that don’t use elite specializations but I feel like there has to be a larger skill difference for them to work well. Maybe it will get better after the next elite specializations are released. Maybe I will feel like I have options again.

I would just like to reiterate that these are personal opinions about the way the game makes me feel. If you want to discuss this, great! If not, then I don’t have the energy to mess with trolls. Thank you!

I don’t disagree. There are no raid builds that are not specialized. Except for one of my toons that I use for a very specific purpose, all others use the specialization lines.

I have to believe there will be some balance in order to make all lines equal. Whether that happens or not, who knows.

jheryn.8390:

I don’t disagree. There are no raid builds that are not specialized. Except for one of my toons that I use for a very specific purpose, all others use the specialization lines.

I have to believe there will be some balance in order to make all lines equal. Whether that happens or not, who knows.

Well, theres normal condi engi at least and D/D Trickery Thief isnt too bad.

Probably should be some more balancing though.

Most of them are conceptual failures which I’ve been mentioning even before HoT’s release; the true success of the specs imho is power-built reaper due to how it changes the style of the necro immensely while not really offering build superiority across the board, unlike how its condi counterpart is just objectively better than core necro.

Most of the elite specs are blatantly power-creeped and fail to fulfill the design prospect of changing the way professions are played; they simply just give numbers buffs and give synergy/replacement to other trait lines due to the “loss of customization” that comes with the elite spec by losing a trait line in general.

The prospect would be better-suited for core trait lines to follow the philosophy of having overlap between lines while specializations focus heavily on a style of play or changes to a style of play. That’d require a lot of changes to the core specs and a rework of all elites, however, which I strongly believe at this point ANet is unwilling or incapable of doing, seeing as such a task would be monumental and require constant, rapid iteration for balance and sound design.

OtterPaws.2036:

jheryn.8390:

I don’t disagree. There are no raid builds that are not specialized. Except for one of my toons that I use for a very specific purpose, all others use the specialization lines.

I have to believe there will be some balance in order to make all lines equal. Whether that happens or not, who knows.

Well, theres normal condi engi at least and D/D Trickery Thief isnt too bad.

Probably should be some more balancing though.

True. And the one I use that is non-specialized is the Shout Tank/Condi Stripper Guardian for fractals. He can take a beating and provide amazing condi stripping, protection, and some heals for party support.

It is pretty sad, however that between you and I we can only think of three builds.

Yes, I am sure there are more, but I rarely see players without specializations unless they do not have HoT.

I think if the specializations (which I happily use) are meant just for an alternate way of playing classes, they should be equal in power to other builds, not superior on every class. Just my opinion.

This is from a PvE only perspective but …

Reaper is awesome but that is about as far as I would go on describing how great elite specs are. Even for reaper this is primarily for a power build. If I was going for conditions I probably wouldn’t care as much about reaper.

I haven’t found the rest to be especially compelling. That is not to say I think the rest are bad. They are different but not required.

dlmoore.7293:

It feels to me that, to be as comparatively effective as everyone else, you are forced to use the elite specializations. It has been a while now and it seems like everybody is still using them in pvp and pve. They were hyped as a different way to play but they just feel outright better to me.

Yes. Its called Pay-To-Win. You can play GW2 for free but you will be weaker compared to other players who payed for the HoT.

Now suppose Anet nerfes the elites so they become somewhat similar or less useful then main professions. People who pay for HoT want something for their money. If they still end up using their non-elite specs, they have payed for nothing.

FogLeg.9354:

dlmoore.7293:

It feels to me that, to be as comparatively effective as everyone else, you are forced to use the elite specializations. It has been a while now and it seems like everybody is still using them in pvp and pve. They were hyped as a different way to play but they just feel outright better to me.

Yes. Its called Pay-To-Win. You can play GW2 for free but you will be weaker compared to other players who payed for the HoT.

Now suppose Anet nerfes the elites so they become somewhat similar or less useful then main professions. People who pay for HoT want something for their money. If they still end up using their non-elite specs, they have payed for nothing.

You make a fair point. However, I purchased HoT with the assumption that they would be equal to the base class. I wanted options, not things that are necessary to be relevant. They should provide a different style of play and not something that is strictly better.

dlmoore.7293:

You make a fair point. However, I purchased HoT with the assumption that they would be equal to the base class. I wanted options, not things that are necessary to be relevant. They should provide a different style of play and not something that is strictly better.

I understand that but I doubt it can be actually done. There is basically only 2 measurements of “goodness” of each class/trait/build. How much damage it can do? How well it can survive? Everything will be instantly compared to some other build/class/weapon and even if there is slightest difference, one is marked as “better” and other “useless”.

Also I think HoT maps itself, enemies and events are designed for “better” builds.

Khisanth.2948:

This is from a PvE only perspective but …

Reaper is awesome but that is about as far as I would go on describing how great elite specs are. Even for reaper this is primarily for a power build. If I was going for conditions I probably wouldn’t care as much about reaper.

I haven’t found the rest to be especially compelling. That is not to say I think the rest are bad. They are different but not required.

Looks at all the condi reapers doing 20-30k bleed ticks on raid bosses.

OtterPaws.2036:

Khisanth.2948:

This is from a PvE only perspective but …

Reaper is awesome but that is about as far as I would go on describing how great elite specs are. Even for reaper this is primarily for a power build. If I was going for conditions I probably wouldn’t care as much about reaper.

I haven’t found the rest to be especially compelling. That is not to say I think the rest are bad. They are different but not required.

Looks at all the condi reapers doing 20-30k bleed ticks on raid bosses.

That does require the healing of the Lich minions though. For general play, Viper Horror isn’t that great.

OtterPaws.2036:

Khisanth.2948:

This is from a PvE only perspective but …

Reaper is awesome but that is about as far as I would go on describing how great elite specs are. Even for reaper this is primarily for a power build. If I was going for conditions I probably wouldn’t care as much about reaper.

I haven’t found the rest to be especially compelling. That is not to say I think the rest are bad. They are different but not required.

Looks at all the condi reapers doing 20-30k bleed ticks on raid bosses.

Hmm and which aspect of reaper is required to achieve that?

The elite specs for the most part are a different way to play the class and are not required.

Every ranger is not a Druid, thief not DD, etc. in PvP and PvE.

Granted some classes need more work and delineation within their spec/trait lines but it is a living, breathing game with devs making changes.

I think this will sort itself out in the long term. The current elite specs are arguably better than their base classes which is why they’re so ubiquitous atm. But eventually there will be multiple elite specs for each class and, as long as these are all equivalent with each other, we’ll start seeing a greater variety in the specs used.

They kittening suck. There, I said it, “awesome” abilities at the cost of a grind.

Instead of the other trait lines being better and more synergetic you just have an “end-all, be-all” traitline that can be added to the other kitten ones to make them marketable.

after i unlock it i should be able to wield the weapon without having the trait line active

When there will be others spec with more choices and diversity, no one will care about core class.

dlmoore.7293:

…to be as comparatively effective as everyone else, you are forced to use the elite specializations. It has been a while now and it seems like everybody is still using them in pvp and pve.

Among the reason everyone uses them is that they are new. It’s been 3 years since a lot of people have seen anything truly ‘new’ as far as builds are concerned and, in all cases (at least at HoT launch), the new specs offered the sort of functionality hoped for by a large subset of each prof’s fans. Put another way, initially, a lot of people didn’t care if they were provably more effective; they were just too fun to pass up.

And in most of the game, it doesn’t really matter. Knowing the build and the local mechanics ends up mattering more than which build — a skilled player with a ‘bad build’ will usually outperform an unskilled player with an ‘optimum build’.

That said, in the areas it does matter (high level PvP, raids, and certain types of WvW), the elite specs are considered superior by far…and with good reason. (There are plenty of other threads that go into the specifics, so I won’t digress here.)

I’m disappointed that ANet didn’t address this when they wrote about the January balance patch. Before HoT, they said they wanted elite specs to be alternatives. In the live game, however, it’s turned out that, when it matters, ‘elite’ is ‘superior’. And I wonder if it is ANet’s intent to leave it like that.

The necro class depends on Reaper, but that is because the rest of the class has problems. Reaper itself is a good example of an elite spec. It changes the class.

I also like Druid and Dragonhunter since they change the playstyle not just a strait buff. The straight buff is more of a numbers balance issue. Rangers also get HoT pets.

Tempest, Daredevil, Herald, Berserker, chronomancer just add depth and mechanics to the class. They are mandatory.

Scrapper is inbetween as the functional gyro isn’t that important but does mean Scrappers have more depth than non-scrappers.

Shezu Tsukai.8291:

The elite specs for the most part are a different way to play the class and are not required.

Every ranger is not a Druid, thief not DD, etc. in PvP and PvE.

Granted some classes need more work and delineation within their spec/trait lines but it is a living, breathing game with devs making changes.

They were supposed to be alternative playstyles, but what we’ve seen so far is that prety much every elite spec is an upgrade to the base profession.

I’m a little confused by all those saying that “Elite Specializations” are just additional specializations and not supposed to be better than those we already had. If they’re not supposed to be better, why are they called “Elite”?

Djinn.9245:

I’m a little confused by all those saying that “Elite Specializations” are just additional specializations and not supposed to be better than those we already had. If they’re not supposed to be better, why are they called “Elite”?

“9 new trait lines” is not as epic as “9 New Elite Specializations”.

Duke Nukem.6783:

after i unlock it i should be able to wield the weapon without having the trait line active

Totally agree.

For the rest, I really don’t see scrapper as a good alternative for my engie. Even less as a mandatory route. I don’t think I’m the only one that doesn’t need to take the new lines to feel effective or to get fun.

Djinn.9245:

I’m a little confused by all those saying that “Elite Specializations” are just additional specializations and not supposed to be better than those we already had. If they’re not supposed to be better, why are they called “Elite”?

Lead game director and CEO of ANet both said, repeatedly, many times, that the “Elite” aspect of the name is only a name and that they were to be alternative styles of play and in no way intended to be stronger than core.

Thing is, they got a little to marketing-happy trying to sell the expansion via the “elite” name and confused people who didn’t do their research on the subject, and now a ton of people are arguing that the power gains are justified by the “elite” names.

Kind of like how “elite” skills are often weaker than their non-elite utility counterparts. It’s just being used as a fancy word for exclusivity.

DeceiverX.8361:

Lead game director and CEO of ANet both said, repeatedly, many times, that the “Elite” aspect of the name is only a name and that they were to be alternative styles of play and in no way intended to be stronger than core.

He lied. The Engineer has been in dire straits for a very long time, keeps getting worse, keeps getting harder, and keeps suffering for the malleability. When I first saw scrapper I knew it was instantly better than the other lines; there was no “competition” or “worthy rival”. Turns out the same is true of Necromancer and Warrior after their nerfs and neglect.

The reality is much more grim than this though I wish what you said was true and the classes that I grew into didn’t suffer incredible backlashes and become worthless. Hell half the mechanics aren’t even worth playing for some classes. Who foregoes Herald?

FogLeg.9354:

dlmoore.7293:

It feels to me that, to be as comparatively effective as everyone else, you are forced to use the elite specializations. It has been a while now and it seems like everybody is still using them in pvp and pve. They were hyped as a different way to play but they just feel outright better to me.

Yes. Its called Pay-To-Win. You can play GW2 for free but you will be weaker compared to other players who payed for the HoT.

Rumormill, the core specs can fight against the elite specs too. Player skill can make up the difference. The game is still B2P.

DeceiverX.8361:

Djinn.9245:

I’m a little confused by all those saying that “Elite Specializations” are just additional specializations and not supposed to be better than those we already had. If they’re not supposed to be better, why are they called “Elite”?

Lead game director and CEO of ANet both said, repeatedly, many times, that the “Elite” aspect of the name is only a name and that they were to be alternative styles of play and in no way intended to be stronger than core.

Thing is, they got a little to marketing-happy trying to sell the expansion via the “elite” name and confused people who didn’t do their research on the subject, and now a ton of people are arguing that the power gains are justified by the “elite” names.

Kind of like how “elite” skills are often weaker than their non-elite utility counterparts. It’s just being used as a fancy word for exclusivity.

Agreed, some players jumped on the all powerful “elite” bandwagon early.

DGraves.3720:

DeceiverX.8361:

Lead game director and CEO of ANet both said, repeatedly, many times, that the “Elite” aspect of the name is only a name and that they were to be alternative styles of play and in no way intended to be stronger than core.

He lied. The Engineer has been in dire straits for a very long time, keeps getting worse, keeps getting harder, and keeps suffering for the malleability. When I first saw scrapper I knew it was instantly better than the other lines; there was no “competition” or “worthy rival”. Turns out the same is true of Necromancer and Warrior after their nerfs and neglect.

The reality is much more grim than this though I wish what you said was true and the classes that I grew into didn’t suffer incredible backlashes and become worthless. Hell half the mechanics aren’t even worth playing for some classes. Who foregoes Herald?

It’s only a lie if they knew that the elite specs were elite and not just alternative, that people would flock to them and player-testers would prove that they new specs were better. I think it’s likely ANet fully expected these to be alternatives that some people would drop after the shininess wore off.

I’m disappointed that it’s turned out this way (and worse, that some of the most interesting aspects of some of the elites were nerfed), but I’m not angry about it — developers are just human; they build stuff and sometimes it doesn’t end up like they expected when players get their hot little hands on it.

People say that Druid is only an option, guess what?
You want to do fractals? Better slot Druid.
You want to do PVPs? Better slot Druid.
You want to do WVWs? Better slot Druid.
You want to do raids? Druid or GTFO.

It’s still a strait up upgrade, and many people are not happy about it.
I even got laughed at for not willing to slot Druid. This is ridiculous.

Doughnuthole.2403:

People say that Druid is only an option, guess what?
You want to do fractals? Better slot Druid.
You want to do PVPs? Better slot Druid.
You want to do WVWs? Better slot Druid.
You want to do raids? Druid or GTFO.

It’s still a strait up upgrade, and many people are not happy about it.
I even got laughed at for not willing to slot Druid. This is ridiculous.

The meta community is not always grounded in Facts.

You don’t need druid in either PvP or WvW, but you’ll run into the “friendliest community in MMOs” for pug raids.

Call me cynical, but I think this is the standard “temporary power creep” strategy many F2P companies employ. It goes like this:
1) Company A wants people to buy product X.
2) They release product X and make it overpowered.
3) As a result, people want to buy X.
4) After enough people have bought X, A nerfs X so it’s not OP anymore.
5) Repeat for all future products.
Made popular by Riot Games.

reapex.8546:

FogLeg.9354:

dlmoore.7293:

It feels to me that, to be as comparatively effective as everyone else, you are forced to use the elite specializations. It has been a while now and it seems like everybody is still using them in pvp and pve. They were hyped as a different way to play but they just feel outright better to me.

Yes. Its called Pay-To-Win. You can play GW2 for free but you will be weaker compared to other players who payed for the HoT.

Rumormill, the core specs can fight against the elite specs too. Player skill can make up the difference. The game is still B2P.

Maybe for you, not for me. Our WvW guild raid uses DH, Reaper, Chrono, Druid, Scrapper and Tempest. We do use Warriors without Berserker, and no Thieves or Rev.

So, it’s 6 elite spec and 1 normal. Based on that I would say HoT is not optional, and elites are required.

It is possible you play different gamemodes where any class can be useful. You did not specify that so I gave an example about elites being superior and required for success.

FogLeg.9354:

reapex.8546:

FogLeg.9354:

dlmoore.7293:

It feels to me that, to be as comparatively effective as everyone else, you are forced to use the elite specializations. It has been a while now and it seems like everybody is still using them in pvp and pve. They were hyped as a different way to play but they just feel outright better to me.

Yes. Its called Pay-To-Win. You can play GW2 for free but you will be weaker compared to other players who payed for the HoT.

Rumormill, the core specs can fight against the elite specs too. Player skill can make up the difference. The game is still B2P.

Maybe for you, not for me. Our WvW guild raid uses DH, Reaper, Chrono, Druid, Scrapper and Tempest. We do use Warriors without Berserker, and no Thieves or Rev.

So, it’s 6 elite spec and 1 normal. Based on that I would say HoT is not optional, and elites are required.

It is possible you play different gamemodes where any class can be useful. You did not specify that so I gave an example about elites being superior and required for success.

You gave an example of what your guild does in order to be successful. Not all WvW Guilds need elite specializations to be superior. Your one guild does not represent all WvW guilds or players that are successful in WvW.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

It’s only a lie if they knew that the elite specs were elite and not just alternative, that people would flock to them and player-testers would prove that they new specs were better. I think it’s likely ANet fully expected these to be alternatives that some people would drop after the shininess wore off.

I’m disappointed that it’s turned out this way (and worse, that some of the most interesting aspects of some of the elites were nerfed), but I’m not angry about it — developers are just human; they build stuff and sometimes it doesn’t end up like they expected when players get their hot little hands on it.

Players have been making complaints for months with other classes. Nothing came of those complaints. HoT shows up, Elites show up, and a number of those complaints at least have somewhere else to go for a while. Is that good or bad? I can’t say to be honest. I really, really can’t.

Because the truth is this: An “alternative trait line” that came out at 400 pts. and was reduced to 250? This is the “alternative” line? It wasn’t supposed to be amazing? Because I am sure it never took 250 pts. to get through any of the main lines you get while leveling.

It’s not “elite” for no reason. If it is they sure as hell didn’t dress it up like it was just another day at the races, did they?

FogLeg.9354:

reapex.8546:

FogLeg.9354:

dlmoore.7293:

It feels to me that, to be as comparatively effective as everyone else, you are forced to use the elite specializations. It has been a while now and it seems like everybody is still using them in pvp and pve. They were hyped as a different way to play but they just feel outright better to me.

Yes. Its called Pay-To-Win. You can play GW2 for free but you will be weaker compared to other players who payed for the HoT.

Rumormill, the core specs can fight against the elite specs too. Player skill can make up the difference. The game is still B2P.

Maybe for you, not for me. Our WvW guild raid uses DH, Reaper, Chrono, Druid, Scrapper and Tempest. We do use Warriors without Berserker, and no Thieves or Rev.

So, it’s 6 elite spec and 1 normal. Based on that I would say HoT is not optional, and elites are required.

It is possible you play different gamemodes where any class can be useful. You did not specify that so I gave an example about elites being superior and required for success.

That does not define ‘required’.

If anything, it has been my experience that elite specs are almost always going to be better than standard specs. For PVE. The exceptions to this being Ranger, in which normal ranger does more damage (but good luck getting a non-druid healer into a raid), and Engineer who still prefers a condi spec.

There are other builds thare a quite good without needing elite as well, the problem is that people don’t recognize them as meta, so apparently they don’t count. This is where people fail to recognize what Anet is doing with their game design; Anet never intended for people to gravitate to some meta culture, though they probably should have known better than that. If players interpret the game in a way that is counter to how the devs designed it, then of course the conclusion is “elites are better”.

But that’s the thing. The problem isn’t a “meta”. The issue is that, when players experiment with or bang out their own builds, the elite specs come out on top. Personally I don’t follow the meta in any sense. All of the builds I use I make myself, and any time I do some theorycrafting or some number crunching, the e-specs win.

The builds don’t become the meta because there’s some Illuminati conspiracy to manipulate the sheeple for some convoluted money-making scheme. The builds become meta because a whole host of theorycrafters test them out or run some numbers, and then come to the same conclusion. And there’s a very good explanation for this, too: The elite specs were designed to either give the class something they didn’t have previously, or to improve upon areas where the class was lacking. “Covering Weaknesses” and “More Potency” lead to “better” a surprisingly frequent amount of times.

Obtena.7952:

There are other builds thare a quite good without needing elite as well, the problem is that people don’t recognize them as meta, so apparently they don’t count. This is where people fail to recognize what Anet is doing with their game design; Anet never intended for people to gravitate to some meta culture, though they probably should have known better than that. If players interpret the game in a way that is counter to how the devs designed it, then of course the conclusion is “elites are better”.

A designer of a game gives players tools to do with what they see fit. It is not a matter of what they expect so much as a matter of what is possible and what is efficient. GW2 was released with the tagline “Call it whatever you like—DPS, damage per second—we just call it DAMAGE, and when it comes to making red bars go down, you can never have enough of it. Don’t trivialize it though; damage is a very versatile aspect of combat. There are so many ways that a character can do damage.”

In reality the game was very much so built with this in mind. The “meta” was set in stone with Berzerker. It was so set in stone that in fact no other armor was actually introduced with competitive or comparative stats until far later and conditions lagged so far behind that apparently there was actually only one way a character could do damage.

Life is funny like that. This … was intentional. At no point should one convince themselves that things like Herald are “accidental”.

It seems that for raids the Elite specialisation is needed on most builds, simply because of the extreme DPS output needed.

Elsewhere it isn’t a requirement, although for some classes there is little or no point not taking it. To an extent this has reduced build diversity but that would happen anyway. You mostly find people concentrate on a few powerful builds – which is why we have metas.