Guild Wars 2

jwaz.1908:

TL:DR To summarize, the piling up ‘daily’ and time-gated content is just a shallow attempt to keep people coming back, and to restrict those that play many hours a day, causing GW2 to feel like a chore.

The daily activities are basically a grind-like chore, you’re right.

But guess what is more popular – doing Dynamic Events for fun, or farming (as if the game were a chore) for rewards? Just take a look at Orr to have your reply.

It’s bad game design, sure. It’s also what the GW2 community wants. ArenaNet has slowly been changing the game to make it more grind-based, which includes the time gated rewards, because that’s what the players have been asking for.

When the next batch of AAA MMORPGs gets released, we will see if the players asking for more grind (like in all other classic MMORPGs) will stick around or hop to the next big thing. If they leave, ArenaNet will be in trouble, since that’s the main target audience they have been catering to.

Erasculio.2914:

But guess what is more popular – doing Dynamic Events for fun, or farming (as if the game were a chore) for rewards? Just take a look at Orr to have your reply.

It’s bad game design, sure. It’s also what the GW2 community wants. ArenaNet has slowly been changing the game to make it more grind-based, which includes the time gated rewards, because that’s what the players have been asking for.

You’re correct that a large percentage of the GW2 community want the grind of traditional MMO’s, I won’t dispute that fact.

The problem is that Orr farming and previously CoF farming (the easiest grinds) are/were the highest sources of income. This game has little balancing when it comes to rewarding more challenging content. Sure they made Arah alittle more rewarding, but you can only do it once per day for the full reward. Even high-level fractals, which was suppose to accommodate more hardcore players, gives some of the worst rewards in the game.

A lot of people enjoy activities that I find boring and a chore. Look at the ember farms and champion loot tra….

Sorry, I fell asleep for a moment just thinking about it.

Personally, I usually complete my daily, always complete my monthly, have never received a pristine fractal relic, have missed scores of potential guild commendations, rarely run COF or any other dungeon.

People hate it when I say this, but remember the game is suppose to be fun. If it’s not fun don’t do it. The only way you can get ANet to stop producing stuff like this is if people stop participating.

jwaz.1908:

Erasculio.2914:

But guess what is more popular – doing Dynamic Events for fun, or farming (as if the game were a chore) for rewards? Just take a look at Orr to have your reply.

It’s bad game design, sure. It’s also what the GW2 community wants. ArenaNet has slowly been changing the game to make it more grind-based, which includes the time gated rewards, because that’s what the players have been asking for.

You’re correct that a large percentage of the GW2 community want the grind of traditional MMO’s, I won’t dispute that fact.

The problem is that Orr farming and previously CoF farming (the easiest grinds) are/were the highest sources of income. This game has little balancing when it comes to rewarding more challenging content. Sure they made Arah alittle more rewarding, but you can only do it once per day for the full reward. Even high-level fractals, which was suppose to accommodate more hardcore players, gives some of the worst rewards in the game.

I can’t tell you why other people quit playing, but I can tell you why I stopped playing for awhile.

I agree, GW2 does nothing to reward the effort you put into the game. That’s why I stopped playing. I realized that playing dungeons 24/7 does nothing to put me ahead of the rest of the GW2 population. I put 3000 hours into this game and I have pretty much nothing to show for it. I bought this game for my friend who logged in, created a character, got it to level 11, and then they got a precursor off a monster they killed. Boom, just like that, they’re richer than I am and if they choose to, they can use that precursor to create a legendary.

I don’t know about you guys, but this doesn’t feel like an RPG when other people can become just as powerful as you within a few minutes of creating a character when you’ve put in hours upon hours of intense work to get the rewards you desire. I’ll tell you right now, I thought I wouldn’t miss the gear grind of WoW, but I’m hovering over the WoW icon every time Anet creates another event with a single piece of useless equipment as a reward that looks like complete garbage.

anet should never have made an mmo, they don’t know what they’re doing. they should have just made a sequel to guild wars 1.

GW2 is a grind? I played Aion for almost 3 years, I will show you grind.

Mujen.5287:

GW2 is a grind? I played Aion for almost 3 years, I will show you grind.

And yet Aion is still more fun than this.

Erasculio.2914:

jwaz.1908:

TL:DR To summarize, the piling up ‘daily’ and time-gated content is just a shallow attempt to keep people coming back, and to restrict those that play many hours a day, causing GW2 to feel like a chore.

The daily activities are basically a grind-like chore, you’re right.

But guess what is more popular – doing Dynamic Events for fun, or farming (as if the game were a chore) for rewards? Just take a look at Orr to have your reply.

It’s bad game design, sure. It’s also what the GW2 community wants. ArenaNet has slowly been changing the game to make it more grind-based, which includes the time gated rewards, because that’s what the players have been asking for.

When the next batch of AAA MMORPGs gets released, we will see if the players asking for more grind (like in all other classic MMORPGs) will stick around or hop to the next big thing. If they leave, ArenaNet will be in trouble, since that’s the main target audience they have been catering to.

I don’t think the situation is necessarily that bad, I think this patch (and probably the earlier patch with the new island) has been testing the waters for them – it seems evident that they’ve deliberately upped the Champ rewards and put a farm in the patch, to gauge just precisely how many players do prefer farming.

But even how they go on from there, with that knowledge (whatever it may turn out to be – I think the playerbase probably isn’t as farmy as farmers think) is still unknown.

I should think they’re very conscious of the problem you’re talking about – after all, the “locust” problem has plagued all MMOs released since WoW.

Actually, tbqh, I suspect they’ve probably got a bit more headroom built into the game for farming than you might think (i.e. without ruining the economy, etc.) After all, the initial farming nerfs were more for the sake of the bot problem, they weren’t necessarily some grumpy decision on Anet’s part to minimize farming.

It might just be the case that Anet have decided the time is right to relax the prior restrictions on farming because they now feel they have a handle on the botting.

Yeah. They should restrict those not to once a day, but once a week and make more meta-events have bonus chests. That way it’s not about doing the ones that have it each day, but about doing the ones you want once a week.

More different things to do instead repeating the fastests ones each day.

Galtrix.7369:

Mujen.5287:

GW2 is a grind? I played Aion for almost 3 years, I will show you grind.

And yet Aion is still more fun than this.

Subjective. Aion sucked for a whole lot of people. If Aion was more fun than this, more people would currently be playing Aion than this…and that’s not the case as far as I can tell.

@OP

Certainly I can see why you have your opinion… but I disagree with your conclusion. If the game is made for people who feel they must grind, then those people will grind. I don’t feel I have to grind so I don’t grind. I just do what I find is fun.

Mostly the same people over and over again will complain about how unrewarding the game is, or how you have to grind. By the same token, the same people on the forums will say I don’t feel this game is a grind or I don’t feel like I have to grind.

Some people play for rewards and some people play to have fun. Those that find the game fun, people like me, aren’t playing strictly for rewards. That’s not to say I don’t enjoy getting the occasional cool drop…it’s just not that important to me.

So you then have to ask the question how many people are like me and how many people are like you, OP. And no one can answer that question.

But I can say that the number of overflows I have been on every single time there’s a new patch, increases. I find it harder and harder when doing living story content to get to my server.

The first week after a patch, I’m not on my server at all these days, I’m always stuck in overflow. Someone must be enjoying the game.

Toward the end of the second week after a patch, eventually, I’ll have the option to get to my home server. That says something to me.

I agree this game isn’t for everyone. But that doesn’t make it a bad game…it makes it a game that’s not for you. I think it’s quite good as it is…and it keeps getting better.

Vayne.8563:

Some people play for rewards and some people play to have fun.

While I agree with your position on these boards on the whole, just a small correction – for many people who play for rewards in games, playing for rewards is their fun.

/rumination on

Generally, I think fun in videogames can be divided into two broad aspects. Obviously a person can do both, but usually people have a preference for one or the other, spend more time on one or the other:-

1) on the one hand, many people find challenge, and the beating of challenge, to be fun (self-challenge, challenge from other players in PvP, or challenge from the Environment in PvE).

2) on the other hand, probably just as many people, if not more, don’t want to be challenged but want to relax, kick back, get into a trance state.

For those who love 1), the prospect of doing 2) for longer than 10 minutes seems insanely boring, for those who love 2) the prospect of doing 1) is usually more trouble than it’s worth.

The question of reward intersects with these two in interesting ways. For example, “risk/reward” is a rubric often used in design. But 2)-lovers aren’t so interested in risk, but still want reward, at least for time put in if nothing else. On the other hand, people who are into 1) sometimes want to be rewarded, but not all the time, often the thrill of beating something is rewarding enough.

It must be one of the biggest challenges in MMO design to find ways of attracting both kinds of players (generally, MMO designers want to attract as many different types of players as possible, by default).

/rumination off

Great post TC.

My theory is that ANet is playing it safe by following using metrics to measure methods that have the best retention. But metrics can only measure compliance, not quality, so it follows that the problem in ANet following metrics is that that they’re not necessarily designing with the best intentions for their playerbase. This is all just hypothetical, but it does explain why chores like dailies and click 500 times achievements exist.

To be perfectly fair, game design is pretty tricky and I doubt there’s much guidance elsewhere especially when your game is a hodgepodge of mechanics that don’t necessarily compliment eachother. And if projects by Mark Jacobs is any indication, it’s that projects led experienced designers can fail spectacularly.

Dailies are not meant to try and get players to play every day. Dailies are meant to give a little bump of xp for players who don’t have the luxury of spending the majority of their waking moments playing the game. They’re not meant to be a carrot at the end of the stick, thats just what non-casual players project onto it. They’re meant to be a “you only have a couple hours today? Its ok, you can still get a nice little chunk of xp for your char by doing things you’ll most likely complete as you play.”

At least before laurels were attached. They really need to take laurels off of the ‘daily achievements’ system.

Vayne.8563:

@OP

Certainly I can see why you have your opinion… but I disagree with your conclusion. If the game is made for people who feel they must grind, then those people will grind. I don’t feel I have to grind so I don’t grind. I just do what I find is fun.

Mostly the same people over and over again will complain about how unrewarding the game is, or how you have to grind. By the same token, the same people on the forums will say I don’t feel this game is a grind or I don’t feel like I have to grind.

Some people play for rewards and some people play to have fun. Those that find the game fun, people like me, aren’t playing strictly for rewards. That’s not to say I don’t enjoy getting the occasional cool drop…it’s just not that important to me.

So you then have to ask the question how many people are like me and how many people are like you, OP. And no one can answer that question.

But I can say that the number of overflows I have been on every single time there’s a new patch, increases. I find it harder and harder when doing living story content to get to my server.

The first week after a patch, I’m not on my server at all these days, I’m always stuck in overflow. Someone must be enjoying the game.

Toward the end of the second week after a patch, eventually, I’ll have the option to get to my home server. That says something to me.

I agree this game isn’t for everyone. But that doesn’t make it a bad game…it makes it a game that’s not for you. I think it’s quite good as it is…and it keeps getting better.

I feel the same as you, but, there is a double edged sword here, if you do stories, dungeons, your dailies, harvest nodes for mats, get drops to sell/salvage all of which I find fun is still technically considered grinding, not just the zerg trains or solo farmer such as myself. I choose to do this, It’s all about choices and ones personal perception as to what is a grind to you.

@Vayne:

I don’t think the op states that the game is bad. Hell, he/she even states “I’m not saying it’s a bad thing” when talking about dailies. It’s more about the excessive application on time-gates as a shallow method for longevity.

I understand you play for fun, and not for loot, but the majority are playing for loot — Yes, the majority. This game has loot. A ton of it. And they’re continually adding more. If the majority was in favour of no loot, just ‘fun times’, this would be a completely different game-- and that’s where the “it’s not for you” comment, i feel, is a little out of place.

You’re both playing the same game, just in different ways. Isn’t that what GW2 was supposed to be about? Playing the way you want? I don’t think anyone really can say “this game isn’t for you”…because that person isn’t aligned to your way of gaming. Only the individual person can decide that with themselves, and they often do by simply not playing any more. But, surely Anet should be trying to tell people “Hey, you like loot? come over here, we’ve got lots, and it’s not restricted or a chore to get them”. It only makes those loot-addicts happy, while this doesn’t matter to those who play for fun…that’s just an added perk.

In all seriousness, the time gated content is driving me away everyday that I log in I feel forced to get daily things done which a game that is supposed to feel casual shouldn’t feel like that. I’ll get that stuff done when I want to, not when I need to. Anyway, time gated achievements which I blame by the way should only be a once in awhile thing, similar to that one game that did “feats of strength.” This game just feels like a repetitive chore.

Tl;dr: I just want to be able to complete something when I want to because of my hard off work hours. Now playing how you want? I would like a Sw/Sw necromancer that’s AoE based or a dual scepter wielding Elementalist.

arjeidi.2690:

Dailies are not meant to try and get players to play every day. Dailies are meant to give a little bump of xp for players who don’t have the luxury of spending the majority of their waking moments playing the game. They’re not meant to be a carrot at the end of the stick, thats just what non-casual players project onto it. They’re meant to be a “you only have a couple hours today? Its ok, you can still get a nice little chunk of xp for your char by doing things you’ll most likely complete as you play.”

At least before laurels were attached. They really need to take laurels off of the ‘daily achievements’ system.

You contradicted yourself? First you say daily achievements aren’t meant to compel players to log in every day, then you say “at least before laurels were attached”.

I’m sorry but I’m not just projecting a negative image onto dailies. While sure, your image of dailies could have been their original intention (little boosts of exp for casual leveling), due to the addition of laurels and ascended gear, they have become exactly what you say they aren’t (aka carrots on a stick).

I realize that people play GW2 very differently, and your image/opinion of dailies is perfectly valid. With that said though, you have to realize that my image/opinion of dailies isn’t merely a projection, but is a valid conclusion based on the way I and many other people play.

Agree completely op, great post.

I think if they just added a deeper sense of character progression it would really help alleviate a lot of the problems. As it stands now you get most of your skills by 30, yeah traits do change some behaviors of certain skills but it’s nothing mind blowing it just usually makes the existing skillset more effective. Adding unique skills that can only be achieved by killing a certain rare monster that is a difficult fight, make it instanced somehow so it can’t just be zerged down like every thing else in this game, could be one possibility.

I mean once upon a time in a game called ffxi you couldn’t even progress to max level without such a fight and on certain classes it was really challenging, no guarantee that you were just gonna waltz in and wipe the floor with it (Im looking at you rdm maat fight, for anyone who might have played the game). It was a rite of passage, it showed who had it and who didn’t, but it gave a sense of self satisfaction once you finally completed it. There really isn’t any of that in gw2, I don’t know if that is to blame on player attitudes shifting and expecting that they should be able to do anything just because they play the game or just poor design, but I don’t like it. As it stands now the only real difference between someone who has a legendary and someone who doesn’t is rng and repetitiveness or real life cash.

I really don’t have a good solution for it, and I am not saying that the example I gave is something that should be implemented per se, it’s just I would be so much happier with a deeper sense of progression that is more than superficial. I mean let’s face it, we fight a “world” boss like shatterer sure it looks pretty but it’s just a complete pushover and what do we get from it? A chest with maybe a piece of rare loot in it and I could literally have stood back and done nothing but auto attack at range and get the same exact reward that everyone else got. So it is clear I am not asking for better rewards, I just want some sense of the rewards actually meaning something, something that I can correlate with a sense of accomplishment.

I know the argument in times past has been that you have to create your own sense of accomplishment in gw2. Soloing lupi for example, but it would be nice if doing something that the majority of the players either can’t or simply won’t do would get you a unique reward for doing said activity. Not for the purposes of being a braggart (although I am sure some people would use it as such), but just simply to have a trophy from the effort you put in.

gurugeorge.9857:

Vayne.8563:

Some people play for rewards and some people play to have fun.

While I agree with your position on these boards on the whole, just a small correction – for many people who play for rewards in games, playing for rewards is their fun.

/rumination on

Generally, I think fun in videogames can be divided into two broad aspects. Obviously a person can do both, but usually people have a preference for one or the other, spend more time on one or the other:-

1) on the one hand, many people find challenge, and the beating of challenge, to be fun (self-challenge, challenge from other players in PvP, or challenge from the Environment in PvE).

2) on the other hand, probably just as many people, if not more, don’t want to be challenged but want to relax, kick back, get into a trance state.

For those who love 1), the prospect of doing 2) for longer than 10 minutes seems insanely boring, for those who love 2) the prospect of doing 1) is usually more trouble than it’s worth.

The question of reward intersects with these two in interesting ways. For example, “risk/reward” is a rubric often used in design. But 2)-lovers aren’t so interested in risk, but still want reward, at least for time put in if nothing else. On the other hand, people who are into 1) sometimes want to be rewarded, but not all the time, often the thrill of beating something is rewarding enough.

It must be one of the biggest challenges in MMO design to find ways of attracting both kinds of players (generally, MMO designers want to attract as many different types of players as possible, by default).

/rumination off

Sorry to disagree. Fun is fun. Rewards are rewards. One is a goal, one is an activity. While you’re doing something, it’s either fun or it’s not fun. If you’re doing something not fun to get a reward, while the reward itself you might enjoy you don’t have fun getting it. You can’t not have fun to have fun…that doesn’t work. And that’s the problem.

If the stuff you’re doing is fun to you, the reward will matter less. Even reward centric people probably enjoy sex. They’ve having sex because sex is fun. You can play games for reward, or you can play for fun, but if you’re rewards are your fun, you’re not playing for fun…you’re playing for rewards.

I’d much rather have my pick out of ten time gates, than be forced to grind the same mob over and over. It’s not like I could do more than a single FotM12 per day so it doesn’t negatively impact me at all. The only thing it does is making sure no-lifers can’t run away from me too fast.

By making the interesting stuff time restricted, I don’t feel forced to quit my job or divorce my wife to keep up with the game like grinders such as WoW or Aion tend to do. This game doesn’t force me to do anything and I like it the way it is.

One thing that gets missed when people talk about daily content for casual players is that many casual players think of daily achievements as a bonus rather than a necessity. Since it’s easy to complete your five daily achieves and get that chest, they don’t realize it happens until it does, then: Hoorah, did it. If they’re really casual and really playing for fun, it’s just something that happens, not a barrier or restriction or anything.

GW2 should have stuck with their original manifesto and never introduce ascended gear. Without ascended gear, there would be no need for laurels (in daily). Without laurels, dailys would have been totally optional.

Their original design was good. They’re just dealing with the fallout of their ascended gear hack.

aocypher.9172:

GW2 should have stuck with their original manifesto and never introduce ascended gear. Without ascended gear, there would be no need for laurels (in daily). Without laurels, dailys would have been totally optional.

Their original design was good. They’re just dealing with the fallout of their ascended gear hack.

I still don’t see the problem with ascended gear. We can easily beat all of the pve content with rare gear and yet we have 2 more levels above that even though we don’t need it right now.

The only concern I have that with we get too powerful for the content we have right now.

aocypher.9172:

GW2 should have stuck with their original manifesto and never introduce ascended gear. Without ascended gear, there would be no need for laurels (in daily). Without laurels, dailys would have been totally optional.

Their original design was good. They’re just dealing with the fallout of their ascended gear hack.

Since the manifesto never mentioned gear grind at all, ascended gear has nothing to do with them sticking to it. People can say what they want, but if you don’t take a single sentence out of context, and ignore pretty much everything else, you can’t say that Anet was talking about gear grind at all in the manifesto.

kokiman.2364:

aocypher.9172:

GW2 should have stuck with their original manifesto and never introduce ascended gear. Without ascended gear, there would be no need for laurels (in daily). Without laurels, dailys would have been totally optional.

Their original design was good. They’re just dealing with the fallout of their ascended gear hack.

I still don’t see the problem with ascended gear. We can easily beat all of the pve content with rare gear and yet we have 2 more levels above that even though we don’t need it right now.

The only concern I have that with we get too powerful for the content we have right now.

Speaking for me personally, the trouble with ascended gear isn’t in pve but wvw, where those extra stats might make a difference beyond skill. I don’t think it always does, but sometimes.

Sitkaz.5463:

kokiman.2364:

aocypher.9172:

GW2 should have stuck with their original manifesto and never introduce ascended gear. Without ascended gear, there would be no need for laurels (in daily). Without laurels, dailys would have been totally optional.

Their original design was good. They’re just dealing with the fallout of their ascended gear hack.

I still don’t see the problem with ascended gear. We can easily beat all of the pve content with rare gear and yet we have 2 more levels above that even though we don’t need it right now.

The only concern I have that with we get too powerful for the content we have right now.

Speaking for me personally, the trouble with ascended gear isn’t in pve but wvw, where those extra stats might make a difference beyond skill. I don’t think it always does, but sometimes.

Yeah this could be and actually already is a problem.

Vayne.8563:

gurugeorge.9857:

Vayne.8563:

Some people play for rewards and some people play to have fun.

While I agree with your position on these boards on the whole, just a small correction – for many people who play for rewards in games, playing for rewards is their fun.

/rumination on

Generally, I think fun in videogames can be divided into two broad aspects. Obviously a person can do both, but usually people have a preference for one or the other, spend more time on one or the other:-

1) on the one hand, many people find challenge, and the beating of challenge, to be fun (self-challenge, challenge from other players in PvP, or challenge from the Environment in PvE).

2) on the other hand, probably just as many people, if not more, don’t want to be challenged but want to relax, kick back, get into a trance state.

For those who love 1), the prospect of doing 2) for longer than 10 minutes seems insanely boring, for those who love 2) the prospect of doing 1) is usually more trouble than it’s worth.

The question of reward intersects with these two in interesting ways. For example, “risk/reward” is a rubric often used in design. But 2)-lovers aren’t so interested in risk, but still want reward, at least for time put in if nothing else. On the other hand, people who are into 1) sometimes want to be rewarded, but not all the time, often the thrill of beating something is rewarding enough.

It must be one of the biggest challenges in MMO design to find ways of attracting both kinds of players (generally, MMO designers want to attract as many different types of players as possible, by default).

/rumination off

Sorry to disagree. Fun is fun. Rewards are rewards. One is a goal, one is an activity. While you’re doing something, it’s either fun or it’s not fun. If you’re doing something not fun to get a reward, while the reward itself you might enjoy you don’t have fun getting it. You can’t not have fun to have fun…that doesn’t work. And that’s the problem.

If the stuff you’re doing is fun to you, the reward will matter less. Even reward centric people probably enjoy sex. They’ve having sex because sex is fun. You can play games for reward, or you can play for fun, but if you’re rewards are your fun, you’re not playing for fun…you’re playing for rewards.

Your point of view is that sex is not a reward? Shifting the topic, people actually do play for rewards due to them finding rewards fun. Obtaining rewards is what farmers enjoy for example. Is there anything wrong with playing for rewards? No.

I enjoy competing against players in many settings including outside of PVP. Zephyr runs for example. I also enjoy competing against party members in combat. Screen capping big hits, dying the least, mitigating damage to the party the best, supporting the party’s effectiveness better than everyone else. So naturally I feel like everyone should have access to max stat gear and build flexibility. Unfortunately for me everyone being on the same level playing field with gear quality is apparently not some everyone is entitled to, it’s something people have to grind for, which is terrible for me, because I hate wasting my time.

The point is, people have fun in different ways, and rewards can be one way or rewards can be a barrier to some people’s ideal ways of having fun, like they are barriers to mine. If ANet cut out the grind for vertical progression and keeps adding more fun content, this game can still be better than Guild Wars 1 in my opinion. But that’s just what I like, and I’m not sure how important the version of fun I have is to ANet.

Vayne.8563:

Galtrix.7369:

Mujen.5287:

GW2 is a grind? I played Aion for almost 3 years, I will show you grind.

And yet Aion is still more fun than this.

Subjective. Aion sucked for a whole lot of people. If Aion was more fun than this, more people would currently be playing Aion than this…and that’s not the case as far as I can tell.

I’m guessing this was sarcasm. If not, do you think WoW is substantially better than GW2?

Vayne.8563:

aocypher.9172:

GW2 should have stuck with their original manifesto and never introduce ascended gear. Without ascended gear, there would be no need for laurels (in daily). Without laurels, dailys would have been totally optional.

Their original design was good. They’re just dealing with the fallout of their ascended gear hack.

Since the manifesto never mentioned gear grind at all, ascended gear has nothing to do with them sticking to it. People can say what they want, but if you don’t take a single sentence out of context, and ignore pretty much everything else, you can’t say that Anet was talking about gear grind at all in the manifesto.

The number of times you’ve gone to this argument and the numerous amount of people you bring it up to will at some point hopefully help you see that ANet’s overall message and impression they left on people was that gear grind wouldn’t be a factor. Yet it is, and everyone knows gear grind is grind and saying they didn’t want people to grind in the manifesto, even with the context that goes with it is still saying you don’t want people to grind.

Some people view fun content as rewards. Not having to grind to get to the fun content means not having to grind to get rewards to some people. Saying 1 dungeon run will give you a piece of dungeon armor and not giving people an exotic piece of dungeon armor isn’t cool, but it’s what happened. Some people want to do something challenging once and get a reward for it.

Insignya.8625:

The grind in this game was supposed to be pointless. You have dynamic events (which no one cares about currently), diminishing returns (which is like DRM at the moment) and, most importantly, and I don’t know how this one went past Arena.NET’s head – no stat gain. So the game should have another focus, I mean, that’s logical, right?

Instead Guild Wars 2 is doing its best to be just another MMO – time-gated content, absurd amounts of grind and generally backtracking on all its innovations. How is it that a game that was supposed to be for the people who aren’t into MMOs turned into exactly the opposite? That’s why I don’t play MMOs, because I value the time I spend playing. Guild Wars 2 did a wonderful job at that during its leveling, because you were rewarded for playing the way you want and it didn’t feel like a chore.

Now? Now you literally have to log in every day so you don’t miss anything on the check list. Dailies and time-gated content are supposed to be the worst-case scenario for these games, when the developers have become so uninspired that they just shove something out the door and call it content. But no, it’s a routine for Guild Wars 2 now.

After I’ve seen it all I want to play what the game focuses on. And, currently, its focus is on keeping you in the game just long enough to open the gem store. Some people out there are just “having fun”, I guess they’re in the exploration stage of their playthrough.

I’d call this game broken. Not because it doesn’t work or because it’s not a fun $60 experience, but because it’s literally head-ramming its design philosophies out the window. Everything that was supposed to be unique about this game is gone. Why should people who don’t like MMOs stay here when, say, Everquest Next releases? You have every single bulletpoint covered – number chasing (achievements), crucial daily events, time-gated content, zero incentive to progress, shallow PvP. So? GW2 is living from its former glory of GOTY 2012, back when it was actually a really good experience.

The saving grace of this game was supposed to be WvW. Yet we’re a year in since release and the rewards still suck, zerging hasn’t been changed aaaaand, you brought the grind even there! Congratulations, you made your game a farm-fest, put restrictions on farmers, made the loot useless and to top it all off, you’re encouraging it with every single patch. Despite the likely possibility this will quoted by someone “having fun” prancing around in his/her town clothes, I hope I explained my point to the rest of you sensible people.

QFMFT!!!!!! +1000 million billion! give this man a medal! Couldn’t have said it any better!!

This game had potential but now its become so grindy it’s like ‘work’ away from work and turning into all those other MMOs. Laurel grind, daily grind, achievement point grind, wexp grind, whats next??

I give GW2 one month to prove they are better than that, otherwise cya later and hello to GTA5

Shockwave.1230:

Vayne.8563:

aocypher.9172:

GW2 should have stuck with their original manifesto and never introduce ascended gear. Without ascended gear, there would be no need for laurels (in daily). Without laurels, dailys would have been totally optional.

Their original design was good. They’re just dealing with the fallout of their ascended gear hack.

Since the manifesto never mentioned gear grind at all, ascended gear has nothing to do with them sticking to it. People can say what they want, but if you don’t take a single sentence out of context, and ignore pretty much everything else, you can’t say that Anet was talking about gear grind at all in the manifesto.

The number of times you’ve gone to this argument and the numerous amount of people you bring it up to will at some point hopefully help you see that ANet’s overall message and impression they left on people was that gear grind wouldn’t be a factor. Yet it is, and everyone knows gear grind is grind and saying they didn’t want people to grind in the manifesto, even with the context that goes with it is still saying you don’t want people to grind.

Some people view fun content as rewards. Not having to grind to get to the fun content means not having to grind to get rewards to some people. Saying 1 dungeon run will give you a piece of dungeon armor and not giving people an exotic piece of dungeon armor isn’t cool, but it’s what happened. Some people want to do something challenging once and get a reward for it.

Impressions or not, this has nothing to do with what the manifesto is saying. And as long as people keep saying it does, I’ll keep refuting it.

Yes, people assume grind means gear grind, but to older MMOers, that’s not the original definition, nor does that definition fit with the rest of the sentences around it.

And there was vertical progression in this game from day one (and Anet has said that ascended gear was always supposed to be in the game).

I know there are a lot of people who want no vertical progression and expected that to be in the game. But that still has nothing to do with the manifesto.

If the poster said that I didn’t expect vertical progression, but that’s what I got…I’d have a lot less problem with that. My problem is people blaming that belief on the manifesto.

taek.9386:

This game had potential but now its become so grindy it’s like ‘work’ away from work and turning into all those other MMOs. Laurel grind, daily grind, achievement point grind, wexp grind, whats next??

I give GW2 one month to prove they are better than that, otherwise cya later and hello to GTA5

The game is grindy because it offers grind as something optional?

Vayne.8563:

Yes, people assume grind means gear grind, but to older MMOers, that’s not the original definition

Which older MMOers ? You seem to be claiming to speak for a lot of people here. I am an older MMOer and yet what you say is off target for me.

Vayne.8563:

And there was vertical progression in this game from day one (and Anet has said that ascended gear was always supposed to be in the game).

When someone opts to say something like that after the fact rather than before, when they supposedly had it as their intention all along, it makes the statement seem suspect. This is particularly the case when those making the statement have made other statements that have since been shown to be untrue.

Vayne.8563:

I know there are a lot of people who want no vertical progression and expected that to be in the game. But that still has nothing to do with the manifesto.

Except that the manifesto told us that there would not be gear progression in GW2.

Vayne.8563:

If the poster said that I didn’t expect vertical progression, but that’s what I got…I’d have a lot less problem with that. My problem is people blaming that belief on the manifesto.

Except that the manifesto told us that there would not be gear progression in GW2.

Ashen.2907:

Except that the manifesto told us that there would not be gear progression in GW2.

You’ll win this a lot faster if you isolate the soundbyte saying this. Then Vayne can try to refute it or not at his leisure.

Just saying.

In the meantime, I don’t find this game a chore to get done before I can have fun. I have some entertaining moments interspersed between figuring out how to finish the Daily today (if I play) or maybe I want to poke at WvW and try to get better at it. (Here’s a secret: that’s not really working.)

Of course, I’ve been known to have fun doing chores, if only because I have friends/family helping out, I put something amusing on as background noise, or I am required for my job to smile pleasantly even as someone is screaming not-very-inventive craziness in my face over the fact their meal got two pepper grains too many.

Fun is, fortunately and unfortunately, a subjective experience. A lot of people have fun and are entertained by reality TV. I find the bulk of it boring and formulaic. A lot of people have fun getting drunk and/or wasted out at a bar or somewhere other than home. I like to get drunk alone and crawl into bed to rethink my life (another thing which hasn’t worked out, but that’s a topic for my therapist). A lot of people try to convince me to go to conventions; and I gently tell them it’s not worth four paychecks to maybe find something interesting.

I find it fun to go Booster Draft for Magic: the Gathering once a month. I find Settlers of Catan fun, to a point. I find it fun to get out to a Renaissance Faire sometimes and check how many people think they look awesome and how many actually do.

There are times I don’t find GW2 fun, and times when I do. I’ll give you a hint: it’s when other people are involved doing things together with me and actually are entertaining, funny, or competent at what we’re trying to do. The activity and/or the promise of reward doesn’t exactly limit or instill the fun I have. It’s the people I play with who do.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Yes, people assume grind means gear grind, but to older MMOers, that’s not the original definition

Which older MMOers ? You seem to be claiming to speak for a lot of people here. I am an older MMOer and yet what you say is off target for me.

Vayne.8563:

And there was vertical progression in this game from day one (and Anet has said that ascended gear was always supposed to be in the game).

When someone opts to say something like that after the fact rather than before, when they supposedly had it as their intention all along, it makes the statement seem suspect. This is particularly the case when those making the statement have made other statements that have since been shown to be untrue.

Vayne.8563:

I know there are a lot of people who want no vertical progression and expected that to be in the game. But that still has nothing to do with the manifesto.

Except that the manifesto told us that there would not be gear progression in GW2.

Vayne.8563:

If the poster said that I didn’t expect vertical progression, but that’s what I got…I’d have a lot less problem with that. My problem is people blaming that belief on the manifesto.

Except that the manifesto told us that there would not be gear progression in GW2.

Grind meant to kill things to level. That’s what it traditionally meant. Gear grind came much later. Most of the early MMOs were grind fests, not talking about gear but talking about leveling.

As I’ve pointed out, even if you look up grind in Wikipedia, it gives that definition first. Sure grind has come to mean a whole lot of other things but NONE of that is mentioned or referred to in the manifesto. There’s a whole thread about it, several in fact.

People can only repeat over and over again that there’s a line that says “We dont’ want people to grind in Guild Wars 2.” And all those people ignore two lines before that when Colin says precisely what grind he’s referring to. In most games there’s this “annoying grind” that you have to get through to get to the fun stuff.

How anyone can say that talks about vertical progression is beyond me.

kokiman.2364:

taek.9386:

This game had potential but now its become so grindy it’s like ‘work’ away from work and turning into all those other MMOs. Laurel grind, daily grind, achievement point grind, wexp grind, whats next??

I give GW2 one month to prove they are better than that, otherwise cya later and hello to GTA5

The game is grindy because it offers grind as something optional?

It’s not optional, it’s mandatory if you don’t want to fall behind the rest of the pack. For example, say you stop playing now, what will happen when they introduce ascended armor or level 500 crafting, which requires like some absurb amount of laurels for a single piece? Well your pretty much stuffed and imagine if you have alts…

taek.9386:

kokiman.2364:

taek.9386:

This game had potential but now its become so grindy it’s like ‘work’ away from work and turning into all those other MMOs. Laurel grind, daily grind, achievement point grind, wexp grind, whats next??

I give GW2 one month to prove they are better than that, otherwise cya later and hello to GTA5

The game is grindy because it offers grind as something optional?

It’s not optional, it’s mandatory if you don’t want to fall behind the rest of the pack. For example, say you stop playing now, what will happen when they introduce ascended armor or level 500 crafting, which requires like some absurb amount of laurels for a single piece? Well your pretty much stuffed and imagine if you have alts…

I only do WvW or most of the time i spended there, i dont do fractals only did it about 5 or 6 times to help guild party with a 5th member, i didnt like and dont like the daylies system, by other hand i had to start doing the daylies in WVW
sometimes they come w/o i notice even monthly happens that way and w/o that i would not have any ascended at all, atm still working to ascended gear, on 4 pieces so far.
Have to work only in one character, but im ok with that.

taek.9386:

kokiman.2364:

taek.9386:

This game had potential but now its become so grindy it’s like ‘work’ away from work and turning into all those other MMOs. Laurel grind, daily grind, achievement point grind, wexp grind, whats next??

I give GW2 one month to prove they are better than that, otherwise cya later and hello to GTA5

The game is grindy because it offers grind as something optional?

It’s not optional, it’s mandatory if you don’t want to fall behind the rest of the pack. For example, say you stop playing now, what will happen when they introduce ascended armor or level 500 crafting, which requires like some absurb amount of laurels for a single piece? Well your pretty much stuffed and imagine if you have alts…

Aaaand as long as we’re playing with hypothetical thingss, as soon as they raise the level cap you’ll even be further behind. Or what if they add another tier of gear? Or if they decide you need to spend four gold a day to even leave Lion’s Arch?

If I stop playing now, I stop playing now and miss anything from now until when I come back. I missed almost the entire “Last Stand at Southsun” and the first week of Dragon Bash. I also missed MOST of Wintersday last year, thanks to family obligations.

Unless some earthshatteringly massive change is implemented which requires seven months of pure time sink? It’s not going to matter much.

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Yes, people assume grind means gear grind, but to older MMOers, that’s not the original definition

Which older MMOers ? You seem to be claiming to speak for a lot of people here. I am an older MMOer and yet what you say is off target for me.

Vayne.8563:

And there was vertical progression in this game from day one (and Anet has said that ascended gear was always supposed to be in the game).

When someone opts to say something like that after the fact rather than before, when they supposedly had it as their intention all along, it makes the statement seem suspect. This is particularly the case when those making the statement have made other statements that have since been shown to be untrue.

Vayne.8563:

I know there are a lot of people who want no vertical progression and expected that to be in the game. But that still has nothing to do with the manifesto.

Except that the manifesto told us that there would not be gear progression in GW2.

Vayne.8563:

If the poster said that I didn’t expect vertical progression, but that’s what I got…I’d have a lot less problem with that. My problem is people blaming that belief on the manifesto.

Except that the manifesto told us that there would not be gear progression in GW2.

Grind meant to kill things to level. That’s what it traditionally meant. Gear grind came much later. Most of the early MMOs were grind fests, not talking about gear but talking about leveling.

As I’ve pointed out, even if you look up grind in Wikipedia, it gives that definition first. Sure grind has come to mean a whole lot of other things but NONE of that is mentioned or referred to in the manifesto. There’s a whole thread about it, several in fact.

People can only repeat over and over again that there’s a line that says “We dont’ want people to grind in Guild Wars 2.” And all those people ignore two lines before that when Colin says precisely what grind he’s referring to. In most games there’s this “annoying grind” that you have to get through to get to the fun stuff.

How anyone can say that talks about vertical progression is beyond me.

And here’s the whole quote again.

The “no grind” comment refers to combat only. People take the no grind to refer to the game as a whole. But if you read his statement, that’s not what he said.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/ArenaNet's_MMO_Manifesto_trailer

Colin Johanson: “When you look at the art in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s visually stunning. I’ve never seen anything like that before,’ and then when you play the combat in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s incredible. I’ve never seen anything like that.’ In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat.”

The key phrase here, right after saying that they don’t want people to grind is “We want to change the way that people view combat”.

He is not talking about grind in any other part of the game. He did not say the game would not have grind, only that you wouldn’t have to grind mobs to level.

Astral Projections.7320:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Yes, people assume grind means gear grind, but to older MMOers, that’s not the original definition

Which older MMOers ? You seem to be claiming to speak for a lot of people here. I am an older MMOer and yet what you say is off target for me.

Vayne.8563:

And there was vertical progression in this game from day one (and Anet has said that ascended gear was always supposed to be in the game).

When someone opts to say something like that after the fact rather than before, when they supposedly had it as their intention all along, it makes the statement seem suspect. This is particularly the case when those making the statement have made other statements that have since been shown to be untrue.

Vayne.8563:

I know there are a lot of people who want no vertical progression and expected that to be in the game. But that still has nothing to do with the manifesto.

Except that the manifesto told us that there would not be gear progression in GW2.

Vayne.8563:

If the poster said that I didn’t expect vertical progression, but that’s what I got…I’d have a lot less problem with that. My problem is people blaming that belief on the manifesto.

Except that the manifesto told us that there would not be gear progression in GW2.

Grind meant to kill things to level. That’s what it traditionally meant. Gear grind came much later. Most of the early MMOs were grind fests, not talking about gear but talking about leveling.

As I’ve pointed out, even if you look up grind in Wikipedia, it gives that definition first. Sure grind has come to mean a whole lot of other things but NONE of that is mentioned or referred to in the manifesto. There’s a whole thread about it, several in fact.

People can only repeat over and over again that there’s a line that says “We dont’ want people to grind in Guild Wars 2.” And all those people ignore two lines before that when Colin says precisely what grind he’s referring to. In most games there’s this “annoying grind” that you have to get through to get to the fun stuff.

How anyone can say that talks about vertical progression is beyond me.

And here’s the whole quote again.

The “no grind” comment refers to combat only. People take the no grind to refer to the game as a whole. But if you read his statement, that’s not what he said.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/ArenaNet's_MMO_Manifesto_trailer

Colin Johanson: “When you look at the art in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s visually stunning. I’ve never seen anything like that before,’ and then when you play the combat in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s incredible. I’ve never seen anything like that.’ In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat.”

The key phrase here, right after saying that they don’t want people to grind is “We want to change the way that people view combat”.

He is not talking about grind in any other part of the game. He did not say the game would not have grind, only that you wouldn’t have to grind mobs to level.

Let’s say it’s a given there’s more than one definition of grind. I’ll go say grinding mobs to level and gear grind are the two most common definitions.

What in the paragraph posted above led anyone to believe Colin meant gear grind? I just don’t get it.

Last 3 patches i did only Living Story and WvW with my guild. I missed 70-80% of dailys. I can still do everything without problems. I don’s see the point in this thread.

Chicho Gosho.6507:

Last 3 patches i did only Living Story and WvW with my guild. I missed 70-80% of dailys. I can still do everything without problems. I don’s see the point in this thread.

Just because this issue doesn’t apply to you and the way you play, doesn’t mean this thread doesn’t have significance to other members of the player base.

Dedicated Players want better gear —> dedicated players play the game frequently —> some “content” is timegated

I really don’t see the problem.

kokiman.2364:

Dedicated Players want better gear —> dedicated players play the game frequently --> some “content” is timegated

I really don’t see the problem.

I’m a dedicated player and I have no problem with time gating. It gives those who can’t devote their lives to the game a chance to stay current.

Vayne.8563:

kokiman.2364:

Dedicated Players want better gear —> dedicated players play the game frequently --> some “content” is timegated

I really don’t see the problem.

I’m a dedicated player and I have no problem with time gating. It gives those who can’t devote their lives to the game a chance to stay current.

Giving more casual players a chance to catch up is perfectly fine, but having such a copious amounts of daily/time-gated content is very unhealthy for the longevity of GW2 on the whole. There’s also the problem that all the new content is very trivial and unrepeatable.

Vayne.8563:

I’m a dedicated player

Me too and I don’t understand why people complain about it.