Guild Wars 2

I agree with your post. Well maybe not for the combat because I find it fun.

It’s weird really. The advertised this game as being “different”, how they were working hard on it, had excellent QA team to test the content before it was pushed to the game, and game still has such fundamental problems like horrible camera, poor character creation and lack of skill customization?

I agree with the armor. It’s not very customizable. In GW1 you bought highest defense armor for small fee and customized it with runes and insignias that would cost you 50k+ if you wanted a really great armor for a specific build. All armor more expensive like that was purely for showing off, like obsidian or vabbian.

They just tried to blend with the crowd in the end, not really stick out. If this doesn’t slowly destroy them, I don’t know what will. It seems to me like no new MMO has the guts to be different anymore.

Reading through this entire post i disagree with you on many regards.

One I happen to love underwater combat and its one of my strongest combat styles and I play a lot of WvW so i make use of my underwater ability to get an advantage over my enemy.

I am a full exotic lvl80 and i still go back to queensdale quite often just cause i like it there also more events that restart faster then any where else (including Orr).

I happen to like switching my roles between DPS, Support, Control so who needs a defined role when you can choose what you like with any profession?

Also reading over all the rest EVERY MMO and RPG has those “Flaws” when it comes to lvls uninteresting combat ect. Find me 1 popular MMO or RPG that doesnt have a lvl system in it? Built around dodging is better then standing around smashing buttons and hope that a RNG saves you when you need it. And your comment about Loot is “flaw” to all RPG games in existence and all use it so if its a flaw i like to see you design a game without it and see how it goes.

From what i read you want a game that doesnt have lvls and doesnt have loot rarity meaning your Max lvl to start and have all Max stat weapons to start…. i dont see how a game like that would last. Even COD doesn’t just give you everything to start with.

Your Comment about Monsters in dungeons as well find me one game where the enemy has interesting Mechanics that doesn’t repeat itself. Hell i own over 300 video games of various different types and none have what your asking cause it doesn’t exist! The flaws your stating exist not only here but everywhere in every game! So bringing it up and blaming GW2 for it is not very constructive. WoW has all these flaws expect the few cases I brought out and talked directly about above. No enemy in WoW has interesting mechanics or skills they are all predictable and unlike GW2 you have to rely on RNG for your dodging of that predictable skill. There is less skill and more luck involved in that game.

Dynamic Events sure turn into a zerg fest but least they are trying something different then every other RPG and MMORPG out there. I seen world events in other games and guess what its a giant zerg fest as well go figure.

Rather then saying there flaws in GW2 its more accurate to say its a flaw in the entire MMO genre. So if you can come up with a way to fix the entire Genre by making a exciting game without any of these flaws I say go for it but as noted the game has to be exciting to the majority and not just 1 person.

Eveningstar.6940:

Because builds should matter, and builds mattering doesn’t make the game worse for anyone else. This isn’t really a matter of personal preference, unless you actually prefer going through the trouble of making a build in PVE but having the strengths of that build rendered largely inconsequential by encounter designs that emphasize environmental awareness and dodging.

And even if that were the case, the environmental awareness + dodging would still remain an absolutely crucial part of the game. Coordination wouldn’t disappear. It wouldn’t fundamentally change. It would just became deeper, more varied, with more room for interesting tactics.

Finally, it shouldn’t be necessary to point out that I must have a personal preference in order to make an argument. I have to believe in a change that’s good for the game, and I have to believe in it strongly enough to try to convince you of it.

If all we’re going to do is walk past each other at arm’s length, behind a rhetorical shield of “Well, that’s just YOUR personal preference,” then why have a debate at all? Of course it’s my personal preference. I think it’s a good one and I’d like to convince you to see it my way through reason and discussion. And if I can’t convince you, then I respect our differences nonetheless.

I’m imagining you only playing Guardian, which i think is the least profession with build diversity in the game. Even though I also find Ele and Ranger to be pretty flawed as well, they do definitely feel deeper, combat wise. There just much more options, on the fly changes, that make those professions feel deeper. It really feels that the melee oriented classes always get the shaft when it comes to depth of combat, least warriors have bows and guns… The only one possibly worse (i’ve not played it though) is engineer, you’re pretty much a turret profession and run around like a chicken on fire.

As someone who also followed Guild Wars 2 for years and was extremely excited for it (I also wrote a fairly widely read article about the endgame), I agree with you on some points.

Don’t get me wrong, Guild Wars 2 is a great game and I’ve thoroughly enjoyed playing it, and I’ll continue to play it for the forseeable future, though not quite as much as I have been.

I agree that having levels was probably a mistake. Not a fatal one, but a mistake nonetheless. In terms of stats/power (including on gear) I think it would’ve been better to stick with purely horizontal progression. Retaining the levelling system but then scaling everything down is a redundancy. It’s still better than a levelling system with no scaling (as in most other MMOs) since you can go back and play with lower level friends without making a new character, but it doesn’t solve the problem of content becoming obsolete due to the inferiority of the rewards in lower level areas. Scrapping the levelling system, and making all zones/instances equally rewarding would ensure that the entire game world is always worth visiting. It would also help if monthly/daily achievements required players to visit a wider range of zones to complete them.

Removing levels entirely would require a colossal amount of work, so even if ArenaNet decided it’d be a good idea it’d likely take a very long time implement. It’s a shame that they didn’t go with the idea to begin with as we know it was at least on the table at some point back when we were getting the first bits of info about GW2, but I understand their reasoning; it would’ve been a huge risk to do away with such a staple feature of the MMO genre.

In terms of the combat, I disagree that it is critically flawed. The jack of all trades issue isn’t a flaw, it’s just part of the trade-off of removing the holy trinity. Either you have hard dependencies or you don’t. If you don’t (as in GW2), then everyone needs to be able to do a bit of everything. Teamwork based mechanics could be fleshed out and expanded upon, but this can be done in ways other than requiring people to specialise purely in healing/damage/defence.

Your point about monster abilities is true though, and boss mechanics in particular could be much better. Bosses should be much more than larger versions of normal enemies with much more damage output and health – they need to have interesting mechanics which require skill, logic, concentration, quick-reactions, trial-and-error/learning, and/or keen observation. Unlike the levelling system this is something that can (and probably will) be improved over time.

As for gear progression/itemisation, I think it is just part of the larger issue that includes the inclusion of a levelling system; the mixture of horizontal and vertical progression. In my opinion gear should all be purely cosmetic and stats should be applied to gear through upgrade components (like insignias in GW1). I don’t agree that gear rarity has no purpose, but it should be like it sounds with the rarity reflecting how difficult something is to obtain. Rarer gear should look more interesting/unusual, and rarer upgrade components should offer more specialised stat distributions or niche set bonuses, but not better stats overall.

The OP also mentions the idea of weapon skill customisation, which I think would be a welcome addition. Maybe there could be a weapon-trait system which allows players to alter specific skills – for example sacrificing some range for extra damage, or adding conditions at the expense of additional recharge time. This kind of horizontal progression would nicely make up for an absence of vertical progression. There could also be additional cosmetic upgrades for armour/weapons, such as particle effects, spikes, chains, jewels etc.

Of the other points listed, I think the only major one (that hasn’t already been mentioned above) is the one about WvW. Culling issues and server imbalances are both big problems, but I’d argue that ArenaNet can only do so much to balance servers – players are largely to blame for not distributing themselves in a way which provides the best experience (i.e. transferring to winning servers leading to a snowball effect and ultimately to a server collapsing due to boredom).

TL;DR

Mixing horizontal progression with vertical progression doesn’t work very well.

The more vertical progression you have, the more content is necessarily made obsolete, and the more fragmented the player-base becomes.

best thread ive seen so far,

i wonder why noone ever considered to develop an mmo without leveling at all

dimgl.4786:

At this point, it’s very hard to believe they can change anything about the game without upsetting a large portion of the playerbase.

This is the truly sad part. Anet has gotten a lot of good feedback from you and, now, many others. But, I’ve never seen implemented game systems reversed fundamentally in a time frame necessary to avert disaster. It’s too costly. And it’s like a new governmental program—it may be a really bad idea, and totally unsustainable, but you can’t take it away without alienating some block of voters—so it stays until one day it simply blows up.

Wow, OP it’s as if you read my mind as you posted this. I was going to type out a long winded explanation of what I’m feeling while playing the game lately but you already did this for me. I have to say it’s pretty spot on with what many people I know are feeling right now.

Thing is that Anet went heavy handed in their trinity removal.

Because when you remove the trinity by giving everyone the ability to do damage, CC and group support you end up with the D&D cleric that can harm and heal with equal ease.

But there is a second part to the trinity, the designated tank. The jack of all trades would make said tank potentially self sufficient. So what Anet seems to have done is reduce the effectiveness of heals across the board, meaning that defense rests more on the players ability to react to and avoid threats than the builds healing abilities.

Anet also made aggro opaque. Different mobs react differently to a group. This means that nobody can claim that they can hold aggro 100% of the time, allowing the rest to do damage unopposed.

No wonder people build glass cannons, as damage is the only aspect of a build that is not primarily on the players shoulders. Never mind that going all in on a critical focused build can see your damage output nearly triple.

Meaning that if you can create a ranged build that chill and cripple, while the player brings short reaction time (that supposed “skill”), so you can kite with little danger and you are in essence immortal. At least until you run head first into Orr mobs or similar that chain CC you…

The game plays a bit differently in the PVP variants, because humans are smarter than the AI about CC. But overall it plays the same, with the defensive side resting on the player rather than the build.

I am new to the gaming environment. That said, I decided to add my 2 cents worth to this thread. I’ve played WOW, Rift, EQ2 and SWTOR before picking up this game. I’d heard so many different opinions that I decided to try it for myself.

Personally, I like the “Tinity” style play as much as I like the current GW2 “Jack of all Trades” type of play. I prefer playing with guild mates because of the social aspect. We have a lot of fun together. Besides, they are who I learned the most about how to play these games from.

The game play in all games I’ve played is very similar in one aspect or another, so I’ve just found a niche that I seem to fit into and gone with it. My delight in GW2 is I don’t have to stand still to use any of my skills. That is the most engaging thing I have found so far.

I am a casual player so I rarely, if ever, run through dungeons. I’ve more of an adventuring spirit than a “I have to get to point B” type. So grinding is boiled down for me as having to do stuff in order to earn coin.

I am disappointed in how Anet handled the one-time events recently. The Halloween one was, in my humble opinion, better executed than this past Lost Shores one. I feel they really dropped the ball on that one.

I prefer to be able to amble through the game and enjoy it a lot. When I do solo, I choose areas I can handle without having to depend on my guild mates or other players just to get through. I save those areas for when I can run with groups. But it is disappointing to me that I cannot just explore without getting killed in high spawn areas.

i agree with all of this. except for the fact that ive already bought the game so ive already given them 100% support whether i like it or not.

dimgl.4786:

As I see players are finally starting to open to Guild Wars 2 criticism, I have decided to take another swing at making a forum post to get the ArenaNet developers to understand where they have gone wrong and how they can improve the game. Rather than make a typical complaint post, I’ve decided to explain why I think Guild Wars 2 is a flawed game.

In order to explain this, I’m going to be using their previous game, Guild Wars, for many comparisons. Before I start, please refrain from “go play another game/go design your own game” posts as they do not contribute to the discussion.

For those who never played Guild Wars, Guild Wars was a CORPG based on skillsets. The level cap is 20 and most content was designed for level cap.

Here are some of Guild Wars 2’s game design flaws that go against ArenaNet’s manifesto.

Levels are obsolete

After Guild Wars: Prophecies, ArenaNet noticed that lower level areas were becoming abandoned.

To fight this, they implemented tutorial zones where players would level from 1-20 very quickly. They also added Hard Mode to encourage players to revisit older areas. Many players who desired vertical progression quickly left, turned off by the level cap. However, in theory this system was perfect.

Because all content was at level cap, there was basically no need for a leveling system. This meant that once players were at level cap, they would experience the entire game as endgame.

Instead of creating a game which has no levels, ArenaNet quadrupled the level cap and introduced a downscaling system. Although this system gives players a sense of progression while still allowing them to visit old content… it works well until players reach endgame.

Here are several flaws of the current system:

• Older zones are obsolete and content is still categorized. Players will not visit older zones if the level range is numerically inferior. This is why ArenaNet cannot “make the whole game endgame”, because zones in the level cap are still the true endgame. This directly contradicts the ArenaNet manifesto.
• Balancing and dynamic content scaling is a development nightmare. Scaling a dynamic event accurately is difficult when players have different levels of power. This is mostly noted during event zergfests. While I encourage the idea of an event system, I feel it could have been better executed without levels.
• Having levels encourages vertical progression. Players do not want to be downscaled and many players who have 100% zone completion avoid older zones because of this.

Edit: for clarity.

I disagree, I think the down-scaling works well and does encourage players to revisit those older places, unlike pretty much every other MMO I’ve played since SWG. Myself and several members of my guild who are in full exotics @ 80, patrol and do dailes in the Norn foothills, because we still get rewarded fairly well especially if the Maw Shaman event chain pops.

You’ve touched on some thing’s I’d personally see focus on:

• Dungeons are poorly designed and are not fun. High level fights are generally uninteresting and involve dodging and reviving players.

• World events have no real consequences and there is no real incentive to complete them. There is no challenge in them and they eventually become stale.

• No guild halls.

• Dungeon bosses need a serious once over. Long fights of dodging the big hit, then reviving those who didn’t, well, one or two bosses like this would be great, but the majority are like this.

A boss battle needs unique mechanics, even consecutive battles needs to be enticing and have some surprises and dire moments. It needs to be challenging without one shot kills and huge health bars, because when you finally figured the boss out, then it becomes a five minute war off attrition, and that is not interesting at all.

• I think each zone needs at least one sweeping, zone wide meta event. There should be danger and clear changes that raise the stakes. Perhaps they can even add an escalating system, so for each event in the chain you participate in, the greater the reward will be for the following events.

Speaking of events, the game definitely needs better karma awards. Right now, the only worthwhile goal appears to be the exotic armors.

• Guild halls are a must. It seems the inclusion of these are on the back burner, but I don’t think ANet knows how important guild content actually are. WvW forts and flags are minimal compared to what guild benefits aught to be.

There needs to be GvG content. Perhaps even guild invasions, where one guild invades another guild’s hall. Not only this, but large group content, more than five man dungeons would also do a lot of good. This will allow guilds to actually have guild events, and tackle difficult PvE content as a larger group.

Azjenco.9425:

You’ve touched on some thing’s I’d personally see focus on:

• Dungeons are poorly designed and are not fun. High level fights are generally uninteresting and involve dodging and reviving players.

• World events have no real consequences and there is no real incentive to complete them. There is no challenge in them and they eventually become stale.

• No guild halls.

• Dungeon bosses need a serious once over. Long fights of dodging the big hit, then reviving those who didn’t, well, one or two bosses like this would be great, but the majority are like this.

A boss battle needs unique mechanics, even consecutive battles needs to be enticing and have some surprises and dire moments. It needs to be challenging without one shot kills and huge health bars, because when you finally figured the boss out, then it becomes a five minute war off attrition, and that is not interesting at all.

• I think each zone needs at least one sweeping, zone wide meta event. There should be danger and clear changes that raise the stakes. Perhaps they can even add an escalating system, so for each event in the chain you participate in, the greater the reward will be for the following events.

Speaking of events, the game definitely needs better karma awards. Right now, the only worthwhile goal appears to be the exotic armors.

• Guild halls are a must. It seems the inclusion of these are on the back burner, but I don’t think ANet knows how important guild content actually are. WvW forts and flags are minimal compared to what guild benefits aught to be.

There needs to be GvG content. Perhaps even guild invasions, where one guild invades another guild’s hall. Not only this, but large group content, more than five man dungeons would also do a lot of good. This will allow guilds to actually have guild events, and tackle difficult PvE content as a larger group.

I’ve never understood why karma was implemented in the first place. Is it so players can have a soulbound currency?

You sir, hit the nail on the head with this post. Thank you. Anet needs to read this.