Guild Wars 2

Astralporing.1957:

Except, as i said before, the very same reasoning can be applied directly to gold. In which case we would get statements like “no, this item priced at 200 g doesn’t cost 200g, because all the money for it i got during the normal gameplay, therefore it was completely free”.
200g is not free, no matter how easy getting it would be.

Yes and no, about applying it directly to gold. This is not quite the same issue. Just like people talking about crafting to make money is not the same issue.

It’s like comparing a small business to a hobby that’s just for fun. Different things are taken into account for different scenarios.

However, I’m not going to argue it with you because you’re never going to understand. No, I’m not saying you’re dumb, I’m simply saying that your perspective, your mindset, differs from ours. As such, we’re at an impasse.

Lothirieth.3408:

Have No Faith In Me.1840:

Items you find/loot/pick up, have no value unless you sell or trade it.

Items you buy with gold, have value.

^ Perspective. Mine and others. People have a different one to you.

Cheap shot: we enjoy ourselves more.

Facts sorta get in the way of “perspectives”. This is one of those times you’re just flat out wrong. :P

I used to think the same way, so I get it. Then my boyfriend educated me on opportunity costs. Now I realise the way I was thinking was wrong. Not a big deal really.

There is no right and wrong.

And “opportunity costs” are still a perspective, a hypothetical idea, not a fact. All it is looking at 2 different options to what I do. Do you take the red pill, or the blue pill?

- Me: “Will I use this item, or sell it and make money?”

- Your boyfriend “I looted a herb worth 5s! …..But if I use it I’m losing money, if I sell it I’m getting money”.

One is short, concise, to the point, back to playing.

The other is over thinking the smallest of things, and those people end up being hoarders in games (If not life too), their bank is filled with junk, they hold onto the money they have, never spending it, just stockpiling, and they never actually play the game. Every item they pick up has negative connotations attached to it.

Edit:
If you read over page 1/2, and see all the people saying “every item you use is costing you money”, you can see from their post that they are deeply disturbed individuals that do not know how to play a game for fun, they make it a chore/work, it is incredibly sad, and they fit perfectly into my above description.

Have No Faith In Me.1840:

Items you find/loot/pick up, have no value unless you sell or trade it.

Items you buy with gold, have value.

^ Perspective. Mine and others. People have a different one to you.

Cheap shot: we enjoy ourselves more.

You can recognize the concept of opportunity cost (you’re completely wrong here, BTW) without being chained down by having to act optimally on it. The correct answer here is “it cost me 20g + the value of mats I gathered to make this item. I could have farmed Frostgorge and gotten it in half the time, but chopping the logs is more fun to me therefore within the context of playing a game, the opportunity cost is actually lower based on my limited and valuable time.”

It is possible to be both educated on a topic and not a walking spreadsheet/robot/etc =P

I’ve said it a couple of times. Acquiring mats isn’t the topic here.

The topic is that crafting something with mats you didn’t buy doesn’t mean you got a free item. Free would be an item mailed to you. This gives you the item but takes mats that had value. Thus not free.

Clark Skinner.4902:

I’ve said it a couple of times. Acquiring mats isn’t the topic here.

The topic is that crafting something with mats you didn’t buy doesn’t mean you got a free item. Free would be an item mailed to you. This gives you the item but takes mats that had value. Thus not free.

You give those materials money value. I do not.

So, free for me.

fellyn.5083:

Clark Skinner.4902:

I’ve said it a couple of times. Acquiring mats isn’t the topic here.

The topic is that crafting something with mats you didn’t buy doesn’t mean you got a free item. Free would be an item mailed to you. This gives you the item but takes mats that had value. Thus not free.

You give those materials money value. I do not.

So, free for me.

They have money value regardless if you do or don’t personally give them money value lol.

Clark Skinner.4902:

I’ve said it a couple of times. Acquiring mats isn’t the topic here.

The topic is that crafting something with mats you didn’t buy doesn’t mean you got a free item. Free would be an item mailed to you. This gives you the item but takes mats that had value. Thus not free.

You say it’s not about that. But truthfully, if I were to say that it was free to make because I gathered the materials, I would be making an explicit statement about how much it cost me to obtain the materials. After all, if I did not gather them, I would have to have gotten them from someone else and likely with a larger price tag on it than the cost of the tools.

If you want to say that it’s not free because I had to buy the tools, go right ahead. Personally, I consider those separate things, but it’s not a big deal.

Nothing in this game is free, its either time or money, neither of which is free…

Crafting either takes hard work (ridiculous amounts now due to ascended) and or Lots of money, and now with Ascended it takes both money and Time no matter what, both of which aren’t free at all.

The game wasn’t even free…

Azure Prower.8701:

When I gather and craft some thing myself. I feel I’ve earned it and I can use the gold I have to go else where.

If I simply buy the mats off the TP. It feels like cheating and cheapens the feeling of accomplishing some thing.

When you eat something do you feel its cheapened because you didnt grow it/breed it yourself too?

LHound.8964:

Don’t go offtopic.

This thread is about the relation between materials and gold, not about their necessity to craft ascended weapons!

The real currency in the game is time. My point is if you grind the mats up from scratch they are excessive. Lots of blokes may have had 2 or 3 stacks of wood in the bank so it likely didn’t bother them much but if you actually go out and grind them on 1 character it is an excessive grind.

Knote.2904:

It’s like the part of the brain that holds the concept of “Opportunity Cost” is nothing but an empty vacuum of space, sucking in stray brain cells.

Well to be fair, even a lot of economist’s struggle with the idea of oppurtunity costs because in reality what you are giving up is potentially an infinite number of other options.

MikaHR.1978:

Azure Prower.8701:

When I gather and craft some thing myself. I feel I’ve earned it and I can use the gold I have to go else where.

If I simply buy the mats off the TP. It feels like cheating and cheapens the feeling of accomplishing some thing.

When you eat something do you feel its cheapened because you didnt grow it/breed it yourself too?

Yes.

I find the idea of opportunity cost applied to a game very bizarre.
Not everyone plays the game like the stock market.
Personally I couldn’t care less about money in the game.

As for the time vs profit argument it always makes me laugh because it seems ridiculous applied to a pass time I do for fun.
Fun vs time seems more relevant to me.

All the money I have ever made had just been by playing around like I enjoy to do- I like gathering so I craft with the mats I have, if I have them.
I have never done specific gathering runs
Typically I have a crafting session before I log of.

I like running around and doing DE’s if I get a drop that I don’t like I sell it, if I get a drop I like I will use it regardless of it’s worth on the TP- who cares?

If I see a skin/item I really like I will buy it- the cost doesn’t matter to me because the item gives me pleasure and adds to my enjoyment of the game
This is a game and I play it because it is fun- worth doesn’t come into it.

Morrigan.2809:

I find the idea of opportunity cost applied to a game very bizarre.
Not everyone plays the game like the stock market.
Personally I couldn’t care less about money in the game.

As for the time vs profit argument it always makes me laugh because it seems ridiculous applied to a pass time I do for fun.
Fun vs time seems more relevant to me.

All the money I have ever made had just been by playing around like I enjoy to do- I like gathering so I craft with the mats I have, if I have them.
I have never done specific gathering runs
Typically I have a crafting session before I log of.

I like running around and doing DE’s if I get a drop that I don’t like I sell it, if I get a drop I like I will use it regardless of it’s worth on the TP- who cares?

If I see a skin/item I really like I will buy it- the cost doesn’t matter to me because the item gives me pleasure and adds to my enjoyment of the game
This is a game and I play it because it is fun- worth doesn’t come into it.

You don’t have to play the game like it’s the stock market to be efficient. It’s not like it’s rocket science.

I don’t bother playing the TP and only play casually, but even I can judge whether it’s better for me to just buy mats (using w/e I had gathered), rather than 100% gathering all of them for crafting. The convenience alone saves you a ton of time, which is also money.

-shrug- I can see the points from both sides, and all I can say on the issue is “does it really matter”? As long as the person is question is having fun doing what they do, let them! They have no right to dictate to you how you should play, and you have no right to dictate to them how they should play.

For the record, I gather most of my own mats (especially as I’m crafting as I go. I’m currently up to T4 crafting, and my characters are now running around in the level 40 – 50 maps, so it ties in well), but do buy up any shortfall that I require.

Fenrina.2954:

You say it’s not about that. But truthfully, if I were to say that it was free to make because I gathered the materials, I would be making an explicit statement about how much it cost me to obtain the materials.

In that case everything in that game is free, as obtaining gold costs you as much as obtaining the materials. Frankly, gold is simply one of the many materials in this game – we just single it out to use as a baseline.

Knote.2904:

Morrigan.2809:

I find the idea of opportunity cost applied to a game very bizarre.
Not everyone plays the game like the stock market.
Personally I couldn’t care less about money in the game.

As for the time vs profit argument it always makes me laugh because it seems ridiculous applied to a pass time I do for fun.
Fun vs time seems more relevant to me.

All the money I have ever made had just been by playing around like I enjoy to do- I like gathering so I craft with the mats I have, if I have them.
I have never done specific gathering runs
Typically I have a crafting session before I log of.

I like running around and doing DE’s if I get a drop that I don’t like I sell it, if I get a drop I like I will use it regardless of it’s worth on the TP- who cares?

If I see a skin/item I really like I will buy it- the cost doesn’t matter to me because the item gives me pleasure and adds to my enjoyment of the game
This is a game and I play it because it is fun- worth doesn’t come into it.

You don’t have to play the game like it’s the stock market to be efficient. It’s not like it’s rocket science.

I don’t bother playing the TP and only play casually, but even I can judge whether it’s better for me to just buy mats (using w/e I had gathered), rather than 100% gathering all of them for crafting. The convenience alone saves you a ton of time, which is also money.

I have a problem with the term efficient and game in the same sentence.
Sure if I am 2 blood short I will buy it but taking more time is not a problem for me because I am doing what I enjoy doing.
Time is not money to me

Harvesting mats take time and time is money. So no, it’s not free.

Time is money. Nothing is ever free.
If those people had sold their mats instead of using them for ascended weps they would be a few hundred gold richer.

Zoid.2568:

Harvesting mats take time and time is money. So no, it’s not free.

That’s what being discussed in the thread. It isn’t quite that linear…

.1) If you are doing your daily chores and you stomp in a node, it took you no work/time to gather, you just picked it from the ground. No work related cost!
.2) If you move trough the map just to gather, then yes, it has a work-towards-objective cost parameter.

Whatever the cost to gather the said material, it still has the same market value. That is a different thing!

It’s the semantics people!

You can choose to min/max, or not to min/max. But semanticly (is that a word?) OP is 100% spot on.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Master of Timespace.2548:

None of this is relevant. It doesn’t matter if you play the game casually or not, the point is that burning materials is equivalent to burning money. It is not a matter of perspective at all.

If materials are equivalent to money and burning money to achieve something is called buying, then burning materials to achieve something may also be called buying.

Only if your game play equates to potential profit for you. If all you ever think about it ‘well how much can I get for this’ when yeah, everything you do, gather, or get as a drop has a monetary value. Events have a monetary value: in time, in drops, and in completion reward.

It is all perspective. For some people, gathering the mats during their normal play equates to ‘free’ because they only thing they are ‘spending’ to obtain them is the cost for the tools. They don’t even consider the time because they are just playing normally. For some people, farming runs are considered ‘normal’ play for them, because that’s what they like to do.

Many people don’t assign a cost to doing something they enjoy, which is why ‘free’ is a perspective. Is it an actuality? No. Absolutely nothing in life is free, if you approach it with the view you are using. Even the time you use to play the game is not free. Time is money, you are wasting money. Why? Because you are enjoying the time you play the game, as such you don’t bother thinking about the fact that you could instead by using that time for something more productive… such as a potentially money making hobby, a second job, time with the family, cleaning your house, working in your yard, etc.

While I agree with your sentiment it does not contradict the OP. You speak of the VALUE items, hobby, time etc. has to you. There you are completely right. That is an individual perspective and can vary widely from person to person.

The OP talks about another subject: the COST of in-game things expressed in gold. Only that. And he is completely right. When you collect mats and use them they are not free in the sense that they don’t cost anything. They cost you the opportunity to sell them, i. e. the sell price in the moment you use them up.

You and some others here assume that the OP thinks that cost (in the sense as explained above) equals value. That is, of course, not necessarily the case. In fact, modern economies rely heavily on this inequality. If in real life cost were equal to value, nobody would relax or procreate or… you get the point. Whole industries would vanish, ArenaNet among them.

In game it is the same. Sometimes I like to stroll through a non-completed map on an alt of mine, harvesting, doing vistas and hearts and do a lot of other inefficient things. That is a loss, in-game-economically speaking, because I could hunt champions in the same time and buy a lot more of the mats I just harvested. But while I lose in terms of opportunity costs, as OP correctly described, I gain value: I have a good time.

So this is not a debate about right or wrong. It is a misunderstanding about the subject you debate about.

Well if you’ve gained extra materials you had no intention of grinding at all, technically its a bonus in my opinion. I only consider the notion of earned items as items you’re intending to grind. Anything else you get over-time is an added bonus as far as I’m concerned.

For example I farm CoE 1-2-3 tokens for globs of ecto. Any charged cores I get though are just an added bonus in my opinion.

These discussions always remind me of this.

On the other hand: These are all bits inside machines that you manipulate using software you paid $60 to license. None of these things are actually worth anything at all in a real world sense.

rizzo.1079:

On the other hand: These are all bits inside machines that you manipulate using software you paid $60 to license. None of these things are actually worth anything at all in a real world sense.

Gold-selling websites disagree with you.

Claudius.5381:

While I agree with your sentiment it does not contradict the OP. You speak of the VALUE items, hobby, time etc. has to you. There you are completely right. That is an individual perspective and can vary widely from person to person.

The OP talks about another subject: the COST of in-game things expressed in gold. Only that. And he is completely right. When you collect mats and use them they are not free in the sense that they don’t cost anything. They cost you the opportunity to sell them, i. e. the sell price in the moment you use them up.

You and some others here assume that the OP thinks that cost (in the sense as explained above) equals value. That is, of course, not necessarily the case. In fact, modern economies rely heavily on this inequality. If in real life cost were equal to value, nobody would relax or procreate or… you get the point. Whole industries would vanish, ArenaNet among them.

In game it is the same. Sometimes I like to stroll through a non-completed map on an alt of mine, harvesting, doing vistas and hearts and do a lot of other inefficient things. That is a loss, in-game-economically speaking, because I could hunt champions in the same time and buy a lot more of the mats I just harvested. But while I lose in terms of opportunity costs, as OP correctly described, I gain value: I have a good time.

So this is not a debate about right or wrong. It is a misunderstanding about the subject you debate about.

I was not necessarily saying that the OP was wrong. Yes, everything has an opportunity cost; however not everyone thinks like this. It’s a perspective, which was my point. Just because people don’t think in terms of opportunity cost, and therefore consider gathered mats “free” (note the quotes there), does not make them wrong either.

Shelledfade.6435:

rizzo.1079:

On the other hand: These are all bits inside machines that you manipulate using software you paid $60 to license. None of these things are actually worth anything at all in a real world sense.

Gold-selling websites disagree with you.

Value to them and to a.net, no value whatsoever to players. You do not own anything in the game, you don’t even own the software interface you use to access the game bits.

Time is money, absolutely. Which is why I am potentially very rich – I’m just taking my time getting there …

Time isn’t money. The currency in game isn’t real. None of it is ‘profit’. It can’t be translated to real money.

If you farm nodes, if you farm fractals, if you farm dungeons, if you run champ trains for gold, if you do anything besides charge real money to convert to gems to buy what you want, it is free.
Any method other than charging is free. You do not make any real monetary currency doing any of these methods in the game. It is all free.

MrRuin.9740:

Time isn’t money. The currency in game isn’t real. None of it is ‘profit’. It can’t be translated to real money.

If you farm nodes, if you farm fractals, if you farm dungeons, if you run champ trains for gold, if you do anything besides charge real money to convert to gems to buy what you want, it is free.
Any method other than charging is free. You do not make any real monetary currency doing any of these methods in the game. It is all free.

WRONG,

The time you waste in the game can be used to make Currency in real life and then convert that into ingame Currency. The point is that you are wasting your time to make Currency either ingame or real life.

If you think my point of view is wrong then go to LA and type in chat says “I got my Racial armor for free!!!”

Draknar.5748:

Cactus.2710:

fourpoundburrito.1698:

I don’t understand all of the fuss in this thread. The OP is just pointing out the fact that there is an opportunity cost involved in crafting with mats you gathered yourself. So people who say stuff like “OMG it only cost me 20g to level weaponsmithing to 500 ’cause I had most of the mats in the bank already” are wrong. The correct statement is that it cost them 20g plus what they could have made selling all their mats instead of crafting with them.

^this^

It appears that a lot of people posting here don’t have a clue what “opportunity cost” means. Any money forgone by not selling the mats is money that could have been used for any other aspect of the game, and unless somebody ONLY played GW2 to make that one weapon that one time, the concept totally applies here. The money you didn’t get from the TP is just as real as the money you spent there.

It isn’t an opportunity cost so much as the value of mats you used, whether you gathered them specifically or collected them over the past year while salvaging things, i.e. this Ascended weapon only cost me 20g plus ~250g worth of mats that I had already collected. The mats have a value whether you use them for crafting or you sell them. You wouldn’t call it an opportunity cost as the value of the items are still in effect and you retain that value, in the form of a crafted item, so there was no lost opportunity. Whether you sell the items or use them for crafting, there is no opportunity cost if your end-goal remains the same (i.e. crafting an Ascended weapon).

I do agree that it would technically be incorrect to say that the mats are free (assuming you got them purely from salvage or gathering while playing the game casually) as salvage kits have a cost as does mining equipment. The time spent is negligible unless you are farming. Do you really want to quantify how much time it took to salvage/mine items over the course of a year and then somehow ascribe a value to that time? That would be nearly impossible.

It is exactly an “opportunity cost”. Look it up. “Opportunity cost” is a commonly used term in business that refers to the fact that if you could have made a different decision that would have netted you a certain amount of money, or reduced the cost of something you bought, then that amount of money should be included in your assessment of total cost.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

In this case, the cost of mats that you collected yourself BUT COULD HAVE SOLD ON THE TP is a very real part of the total cost of whatever you crafted with them.

Cactus.2710:

Draknar.5748:

Cactus.2710:

fourpoundburrito.1698:

I don’t understand all of the fuss in this thread. The OP is just pointing out the fact that there is an opportunity cost involved in crafting with mats you gathered yourself. So people who say stuff like “OMG it only cost me 20g to level weaponsmithing to 500 ’cause I had most of the mats in the bank already” are wrong. The correct statement is that it cost them 20g plus what they could have made selling all their mats instead of crafting with them.

^this^

It appears that a lot of people posting here don’t have a clue what “opportunity cost” means. Any money forgone by not selling the mats is money that could have been used for any other aspect of the game, and unless somebody ONLY played GW2 to make that one weapon that one time, the concept totally applies here. The money you didn’t get from the TP is just as real as the money you spent there.

It isn’t an opportunity cost so much as the value of mats you used, whether you gathered them specifically or collected them over the past year while salvaging things, i.e. this Ascended weapon only cost me 20g plus ~250g worth of mats that I had already collected. The mats have a value whether you use them for crafting or you sell them. You wouldn’t call it an opportunity cost as the value of the items are still in effect and you retain that value, in the form of a crafted item, so there was no lost opportunity. Whether you sell the items or use them for crafting, there is no opportunity cost if your end-goal remains the same (i.e. crafting an Ascended weapon).

I do agree that it would technically be incorrect to say that the mats are free (assuming you got them purely from salvage or gathering while playing the game casually) as salvage kits have a cost as does mining equipment. The time spent is negligible unless you are farming. Do you really want to quantify how much time it took to salvage/mine items over the course of a year and then somehow ascribe a value to that time? That would be nearly impossible.

It is exactly an “opportunity cost”. Look it up. “Opportunity cost” is a commonly used term in business that refers to the fact that if you could have made a different decision that would have netted you a certain amount of money, or reduced the cost of something you bought, then that amount of money should be included in your assessment of total cost.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

In this case, the cost of mats that you collected yourself BUT COULD HAVE SOLD ON THE TP is a very real part of the total cost of whatever you crafted with them.

Then you might have well as added the money you could have earned in real life by working a second job, working overtime, ect instead of playing the game, to the opportunity costs.

fellyn.5083:

Cactus.2710:

fourpoundburrito.1698:

I don’t understand all of the fuss in this thread. The OP is just pointing out the fact that there is an opportunity cost involved in crafting with mats you gathered yourself. So people who say stuff like “OMG it only cost me 20g to level weaponsmithing to 500 ’cause I had most of the mats in the bank already” are wrong. The correct statement is that it cost them 20g plus what they could have made selling all their mats instead of crafting with them.

^this^

It appears that a lot of people posting here don’t have a clue what “opportunity cost” means. Any money forgone by not selling the mats is money that could have been used for any other aspect of the game, and unless somebody ONLY played GW2 to make that one weapon that one time, the concept totally applies here. The money you didn’t get from the TP is just as real as the money you spent there.

If you only play for profit then sure. Not everyone plays to maximize profits. I’m not sure why that’s hard to understand.

It doesn’t have anything to do with whether you play for fun or play for profits. The cost of the mats YOU COULD HAVE SOLD could just as easily buy you something that was purely for fun, or made the game more fun for you, whether that came from the TP or the gem store. I’m not sure why that’s so hard to understand.

Siva Mira.3546:

WRONG,

The time you waste in the game can be used to make Currency in real life and then convert that into ingame Currency. The point is that you are wasting your time to make Currency either ingame or real life.

If you think my point of view is wrong then go to LA and type in chat says “I got my Racial armor for free!!!”

Umm, no. All you’ve done is convert one virtual worthless currency into another. Gems are not real currency, they are just yet another virtual currency. The method of obtaining them can be free (in-game conversion) or can actually cost (buying with real money). So again, everything is free unless you charge.
Until you can withdraw Gems into real money currency, its all just conversions of virtual currency that has zero value in any way, shape, or form besides the virtual world of GW2.
if i farm mats, its free.
If i farm gold then buy something, its free.
If I farm gold then convert to gems, then buy something from the boutique, guess what? Its free.

None of it has cost me anything besides the time I spent enjoying leisure time in a game. It’s all free.

Unless you are riding a champ train, hitting all the dungeon paths daily or have the capital to make big bucks in the market, gold isn’t all that easy to come by. Not in the quantities to level your crafting skill quickly, because the quickest way isn’t all that profitable via crafting alone. So when some crafting guide says it’ll only cost you X gold to level from 1 to 500, that X gold can be daunting to some. But if you took up your gathering tools early and go nuts on every node you see, then the out of pocket cost of leveling your crafting skill is “free”. Sure you aren’t making as much selling your finished items than if you simply sold off your mats but if you are judging cost buy coin spent, then it’s free.

Behellagh.1468:

Unless you are riding a champ train, hitting all the dungeon paths daily or have the capital to make big bucks in the market, gold isn’t all that easy to come by. Not in the quantities to level your crafting skill quickly, because the quickest way isn’t all that profitable via crafting alone. So when some crafting guide says it’ll only cost you X gold to level from 1 to 500, that X gold can be daunting to some. But if you took up your gathering tools early and go nuts on every node you see, then the out of pocket cost of leveling your crafting skill is “free”. Sure you aren’t making as much selling your finished items than if you simply sold off your mats but if you are judging cost buy coin spent, then it’s free.

It may feel free, but the OP is pointing out that in the economic sense (in context of the in-game economy) it is not free because of the opportunity cost. Of course it is perfectly acceptable to ignore that and only pay attention to coin spent.

The OP specifically states that he “can’t understand” the notion of viewing self-gathered materials as free.

There are many ways of looking at this, among them practical and logical views. Some people like to point out every little flaw and details in a movie, some just accept certain concepts and enjoy the thrill or whatever the movie is about.

Similar here. Is it ok for the hero to hunt down rare artifacts and then create his sword of power, or would be buy them at a bazar? What when it comes to chopping down hundreds of trees?

Then there is the obvious aspect of the gem to gold conversion, if I make $10 an hour and I can exchange that for 25 gold, why would I bother chopping trees if it’s not fun to me?

At what point do I consider the game I am playing costing myself something? Take this a step further and you might not consider playing at all – or sleeping – because of the huge opportunity cost it entails!

Here I am, the lone norn guardian high up in the shiverpeak mountains, arctodus, half a dozen, dead by my hand scattered all around me, blood staining the virgin snow – behold (!) the Large Claw I found. Grinning I attach it to my necklace, wipe the sweat off my brows and head toward the grawl encampment visible in the distance …

Claudius.5381:

While I agree with your sentiment it does not contradict the OP. You speak of the VALUE items, hobby, time etc. has to you. There you are completely right. That is an individual perspective and can vary widely from person to person.

The OP talks about another subject: the COST of in-game things expressed in gold. Only that. And he is completely right. When you collect mats and use them they are not free in the sense that they don’t cost anything. They cost you the opportunity to sell them, i. e. the sell price in the moment you use them up.

Exactly so. Cost and value are not the same thing. One is a subjective measure while the other is objective.

Vaugh.7193:

Clark Skinner.4902:

I can’t understand how they can think that crafting something was free since they gathered the mats.

Say that you are out walking. You are hungry and need to eat something. You stumble over a Snickers on the side walk. You pick it up. You can now sell it but since you are hungry you eat it. How much did you pay for that candy bar? In my perspective nothing, since you were hungry and was going to buy something to eat anyways.

Bad example- you can’t really just resell a snickers bar

Try this:

You’re walking down the road when you peer into an alley and see a glint of light. You walk over to it and realize that it’s the plastic protective cover of a rare baseball card (or some other kitten). You have two options:

1: sell the card on eBay/Craigslist and net your self a small wad of cash
2: put the card on your mantelpiece- you are a fan of baseball, after all.

If you choose to keep the card on your mantelpiece, then yes, you LOSE the opportunity cost of the wad of cash you could have picked up by selling the card.

how is this even an argument?

You need mats that is worth X amount of gold in the current market price to craft Y.

What is the problem? (Oh, and yes, even the best farm spots are worse than the minimum wage in a rl job)

There is a tax to selling those mats as opposed to farming them. You get them for free in terms of coin not time. Depending on the item, people will bump the price so the tax after selling an item is less than the profit they intend to make. Take destroyer weapons for example, it costs much less to make one as opposed to buying one. Only reason is because people want a profit and for some recipes, I can’t blame them.

People lets not forget money in game as in the real world is only a representation of value. In a game that value is time.

if you buy the mats necessary to get your profession to 500 people are saying it takes 250g

at about 1g per hour that means 250hours of playing the game.

If you had to do it yourself using the same materials you buy with 250g but instead gathering them yourself, gathering 286 Orichalcum Ore and 210 Ancient Wood Log will take about an hour over 2 days with my 4 level 80 characters

70 Glob of Ectoplasm will take a bit more, 1 – 2 world boss worth of rare drops per 5 of them, lets say each boss takes 15 mins thats a maximum of 7hrs to get 70 ecto. hard to say how much it will take you to get the t6 materials but lets go crazy and say another 7hrs… that all amounts to about 16hrs

16hrs vs 250 hrs…

yes gathering the mats yourself isnt free you need to invest about 16hrs of game time but its nearly free compared with the alternative.

More so when you consider that 16hrs isnt a lot and there isnt the pressure associated with earning 250g you can also spread variety by doing different world bosses / doing different events to earn the t6 materials. For some of us we’ll even enjoy ourselfs doing it and thats key!

going for a 2hr pleasure drive doesnt make the driving feel like a cost but a 2hr drive to work will definitely feel that way even though in both cases you still payed for fuel and used up 2hrs of your time.

Galen Grey.4709:

People lets not forget money in game as in the real world is only a representation of value. In a game that value is time.

if you buy the mats necessary to get your profession to 500 people are saying it takes 250g

at about 1g per hour that means 250hours of playing the game.

If you had to do it yourself using the same materials you buy with 250g but instead gathering them yourself, gathering 286 Orichalcum Ore and 210 Ancient Wood Log will take about an hour over 2 days with my 4 level 80 characters

70 Glob of Ectoplasm will take a bit more, 1 – 2 world boss worth of rare drops per 5 of them, lets say each boss takes 15 mins thats a maximum of 7hrs to get 70 ecto. hard to say how much it will take you to get the t6 materials but lets go crazy and say another 7hrs… that all amounts to about 16hrs

16hrs vs 250 hrs…

yes gathering the mats yourself isnt free you need to invest about 16hrs of game time but its nearly free compared with the alternative.

More so when you consider that 16hrs isnt a lot and there isnt the pressure associated with earning 250g you can also spread variety by doing different world bosses / doing different events to earn the t6 materials. For some of us we’ll even enjoy ourselfs doing it and thats key!

going for a 2hr pleasure drive doesnt make the driving feel like a cost but a 2hr drive to work will definitely feel that way even though in both cases you still payed for fuel and used up 2hrs of your time.

If you’re going to make estimates of time to obtain, you should stop low-balling everything. Low-ball estimates, in addition to being disingenuous, have the potential to mislead. When you throw numbers around, make sure they include both best case and worst case.

For instance, 1-2 world boss’s worth of drops per 5 ecto? There’s one guaranteed rare per world boss, and the MSK ecto rate has long been established at .9 ecto per salvage. 15 minutes per boss — you should also include time spent waiting for the boss during the spawning window. Depending on the boss, this could be 3-4x that 15 minutes. That 7 hours best case could be 70 hours worst case.

You also need a lot more than just Ori, AW and ectos.

fellyn.5083:

Clark Skinner.4902:

I’ve said it a couple of times. Acquiring mats isn’t the topic here.

The topic is that crafting something with mats you didn’t buy doesn’t mean you got a free item. Free would be an item mailed to you. This gives you the item but takes mats that had value. Thus not free.

You give those materials money value. I do not.

So, free for me.

The fact they have monetary value isn’t something open for debate, it’s simply fact. Daft post.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Galen Grey.4709:

People lets not forget money in game as in the real world is only a representation of value. In a game that value is time.

if you buy the mats necessary to get your profession to 500 people are saying it takes 250g

at about 1g per hour that means 250hours of playing the game.

If you had to do it yourself using the same materials you buy with 250g but instead gathering them yourself, gathering 286 Orichalcum Ore and 210 Ancient Wood Log will take about an hour over 2 days with my 4 level 80 characters

70 Glob of Ectoplasm will take a bit more, 1 – 2 world boss worth of rare drops per 5 of them, lets say each boss takes 15 mins thats a maximum of 7hrs to get 70 ecto. hard to say how much it will take you to get the t6 materials but lets go crazy and say another 7hrs… that all amounts to about 16hrs

16hrs vs 250 hrs…

yes gathering the mats yourself isnt free you need to invest about 16hrs of game time but its nearly free compared with the alternative.

More so when you consider that 16hrs isnt a lot and there isnt the pressure associated with earning 250g you can also spread variety by doing different world bosses / doing different events to earn the t6 materials. For some of us we’ll even enjoy ourselfs doing it and thats key!

going for a 2hr pleasure drive doesnt make the driving feel like a cost but a 2hr drive to work will definitely feel that way even though in both cases you still payed for fuel and used up 2hrs of your time.

If you’re going to make estimates of time to obtain, you should stop low-balling everything. Low-ball estimates, in addition to being disingenuous, have the potential to mislead. When you throw numbers around, make sure they include both best case and worst case.

For instance, 1-2 world boss’s worth of drops per 5 ecto? There’s one guaranteed rare per world boss, and the MSK ecto rate has long been established at .9 ecto per salvage. 15 minutes per boss — you should also include time spent waiting for the boss during the spawning window. Depending on the boss, this could be 3-4x that 15 minutes. That 7 hours best case could be 70 hours worst case.

You also need a lot more than just Ori, AW and ectos.

I went with an average which I feel 2 world bosses is pretty fair average. Quite afew times I got 4 rares from just one boss, very rearely i dont get 5 -6 rares from 2 world bosses. besides the 15 minutes per boss is also a worst case scenario. generally its over in 1/2 the that time. In any case in the long run it will average out anyway. I do not feel this was a low estimate at all, it was an average estimate. a low estimate would be getting all the rares from 1 world boss and finishing that world boss in 6 minutes.

Also there is no need to wait for the window with the new api plenty of sites will tell when a world event starts or you can even do your own application.

You dont need a lot more then Ori, AW and ectos to build exotics, you just need T6 materials which i allocated 7hrs for to get about 100 of them thats about 1 every 4-5 minutes if you dont buy a single one of them from the profit gained from world bosses.

I think it is important to point out that Opportunity Cost is not actually a cost. Cost is the price of acquisition (be it buying, making, or harvesting) whereas Opportunity Cost is theoretical loss of revenue (not a cost) based on a comparison of scenarios.

Time is a cost only when we are compensating someone for it. If no compensation is being made, time is potentially an opportunity cost (would could have done something more valuable with it than what we did).

Things that we find in the game (mob drops) are essentially free because they cost us nothing to acquire, just as finding a pearl while scuba diving results in a free pearl. If sold for gold, those free things result in free money.

Things that we harvest or salvage are never free as they require tools/kits to acquire and those kits have a cost. Things that we craft are also never free, since they use ingredients that were acquired at a cost.

Galen Grey.4709:

I went with an average which I feel 2 world bosses is pretty fair average. Quite a few times I got 4 rares from just one boss, very rarely i dont get 5 -6 rares from 2 world bosses. besides the 15 minutes per boss is also a worst case scenario. generally its over in 1/2 the that time. In any case in the long run it will average out anyway. I do not feel this was a low estimate at all, it was an average estimate. a low estimate would be getting all the rares from 1 world boss and finishing that world boss in 6 minutes.

Considering I’ve never gotten more than two rares from a world boss — that’s never, as in not once — you are playing a different game. Two per boss is not all that common. I can’t say 4 rares from one boss has never happened, but I’ve never seen it, or heard anyone claim it before this. However, neither can you say the experience you’re reporting is typical.

Relentliss.2170:

Given the amount of just wood needed to both level your craft and make an ascended it would take months just to gather the wood.

not really, i have 3 80s and i run the t6 nodes every day and i get 100 ori and 100 ancient logs everyday

Depends on how you see gold. Do you see gold as something to hoard for hoarding sake, or do you see it as just a resource to get other things you want.

In the latter case, it’s not opportunity cost to use materials acquired instead of selling them, because your end goal isn’t making gold.