Guild Wars 2

It seems to have relaxed a bit but I still come across forum posts or people in chat going on about how grindy this game is. Yes, I too was a little concerned when they 1st announced ascended but it could be those that think GW2 is a grind have either not played other MMOs or just forgotten what they are like.

If GW2 was really a grind MMO it might be something like this:

Instead of just joining one faction (ie: Whispers, Vigil, Priory) you can join all three. This is something most people will want to do because…

Whispers has a bonus stat you can add to shoulder armor.
Vigil has a bonus stat you can add to chest armor.
Priory has a bonus stat you can add to head armor.

Oh yeah, and these can not be found anywhere else in the game.

So you decide to start with the Priory. You head over to Lornar’s Pass (which is now a 75+ map) and start on the hearts. After getting thru a good portion of the map you get a little message in chat saying “The Durmand Priory sorta kinda thinks you’re ok!”. Hooray! You’re reputation has now gone up and you can access their vendor. Thing is, you only have access to buy a 6 slot leather pouch. It’s not until your reputation with Priory reaches “head over heals, take you home to meet the parents in love with you” can you start to buy the things you really want. So back to the map…

You’ve finished the map and are only halfway to t2 reputation with the Priory (of which there are 5). So what now? Well, turns out there are skritt in this one cave in this one corner of the map that sometimes drop this thing you can turn into the priory to boost your standing with them. After collecting, let’s say, a billion of them, you receive another message “The Durmand Priory would be ok with holding hands with you in public!” That’s fantastic because it’s just opened up a daily you can come here to do aaaaand lets you buy this emblem thingy from the vendor you can wear in exp dungeons so they’ll like you even more.

Time goes by, leaves change their hue, and after many dungeons, dailies, and skritt droppings that blessed message finally appears… “The Durmand Priory thinks you’re the cats pajamas and wants to have your children!” Alright! You finally made it! You rush off the priory vendor and… whoops, did I forget to mention the priory vendor only accepts Durmand Dollars? Well that’s ok, by this point you already have 80. What do they have for 80? Well, there’s a t-shirt with an Asura wearing DJ headphones that says “I’ve got Gixx in da mix” but the bonus stats you’re after cost 800! No no, that’s fine. Now that they are so fond of you, it opens up a whole new daily that gives you 10 Durmand Dollars a day. Alright!…

And as snow slowly falls out your window, you see you’re finally reached your goal (which took a little bit longer than you expected because you broke down and bought that t-shirt). Congratulations! You now have an extra +3 precision and healing power on your hat!

Now… Off to the Vigil!!!

this game does not have a grind.

no, a grind game takes 30-80 hours per level. this one takes less than an hour per level

a real grind game takes 400-600 hours to max your crafting with failure and total loss of materials as an option

trying to get your soldier the p90 unlock in battlefield 3 takes longer than leveling to 80 and having a full set of exotics in this game. i spent more time in skyrim than i did on my first 80 getting dryad armor.

hell, star trek online has more of a grind than this game. anyone who calls this game grindy should feel ashamed.

This game has grind because there is only one real method of getting what you want, by killing. With all the gold sinks, every time you want something the simple equation is (kill x #) = desired item. So yes, the repetitive nature of this can certainly feel like grind. Especially when you factor the number of hours that are required to achieve most items. Gold generation simple feels extremely slow and uphill. There’s very little sensation of achievement when they change the gear before many have even acquired the previously desired items.

The constant nerf’s and shifting around of the game dynamics makes it feel grindy too. Because you feel like you are playing catch up. Honestly, when was the last time you had a moment when you said “Yay” or “Awesome” in the game? That’s the grind, how the games feels…

DeWolfe.2174:

Honestly, when was the last time you had a moment when you said “Yay” or “Awesome” in the game? That’s the grind, how the games feels…

Just now, watching the animation on a dolyak. In relation to gameplay last night when I realised I’d gone from Tier 2 to Tier 3 of the Gathering Storm achievement (kill Living Story invaders) in the course of 1 dynamic event. (There were a lot of people around so it scalled up a lot.) I’m now almost done with Teir 4.

And grind is completely a matter of perspective. I’ve heard some people say map completion is grindy, but it’s one of the things I most enjoy doing and would be doing even if there was absolutely no benefit to it so to me it’s never a grind. It also means I’m always overlevelled for the next area by the time I want to move on so levelling has never felt like a grind either.

Although personally I think it also helps that other than GW2 my main games at the moment are Pokemon Pearl or SoulSilver and Dragon Quest 9, played on the train on the way to or from work. When I can spend an entire 1/2 hour train journey walking around and around the same tiny patch of grass fighting the same enemies over and over to try and level my party up enough for the next part of the quest (and knowing I’ll be doing the same thing for the next few days too) nothing in GW2 will ever feel like grind.

Grind is not a matter of perspective, but rather a matter of requirement. In other games, dungeon bosses are virtually always gear checks. In such a dungeon, grinding out that vigil story you wrote (which I did in <that other game>) is almost necessary to tip you over the necessary gearscore to beat a boss with a rage timer.

In GW2 such mechanics don’t exist. While gear makes your life considerably easier in the harder dungeons, easier ones such as post-nerf AC, can be done without any gear.

Remember how much money you’d get from doing daily quests? That was nice.

DeWolfe.2174:

This game has grind because there is only one real method of getting what you want, by killing.

I did try to ask mobs politely for exotics but they just made funny noises and tried to hit me.

Since “grind” means doing a repetitive task you don’t enjoy over and over for an eventual reward… yes, grind is always a subjective topic. What is a grind to some is a great afternoon of gaming to others.

Does the game have a grind? yes.
Is it as awful as other games? Absolutely not.
Is it the best I’ve ever seen? Absolutely not.
Do I feel the grind in this game matches the type of game this is? Not especially.

This game is ultimately a Murder Barbie dress-up game with modern action RPG elements (modern action RPG effectively means it has nothing to do with a real RPG in anything but spirit). The grind should exist to get my murder barbie a new outfit or hankitten. Not to get her basic stuff that should come in the box.

Look at shadowbane. that game’s grind was non-existent as far as character development was concerned as your goal was to level a character and get in the action. that’s all this game is and it really doesn’t aspire to be much more. But that said, the grind isn’t something I can’t deal with.

I sometimes wonder if the grind is the only thing keeping some people playing…

I realize that different people find different levels of grind acceptable. This is not what I am talking about though.

I’m curious how many just long in to do the daily laurel/fractal/dragon chest and then log off. I’m suspicious that this is why they put that stuff in there..to keep people playing just a little longer…

There’s one aspect that is kind of important as well, the fact that there is no monthly to pay. This makes a huge difference in how ridiculous obtaining minor things in game can get. The longer it takes, the longer you play, the longer you pay subscription fees. The story I wrote in the OP is not exaggerated (mostly) and I wouldn’t have ever come here if it was the same. Sure you have to kill stuff and do dungeons to get rewards but without that, it wouldn’t really be much of a game.

“the grind” is a matter of perspective but mmo’s tend to tap into the OCD of a lot of players. They dump rediculous hours into an mmo to get all the best gear and coolest stuff. Then they are so burned out from grinding they usually hate the game and quit playing. I’ve watched this happen to several friends. Some have quit playing mmo’s altogether.

Aank.4837:

There’s one aspect that is kind of important as well, the fact that there is no monthly to pay. This makes a huge difference in how ridiculous obtaining minor things in game can get. The longer it takes, the longer you play, the longer you pay subscription fees. The story I wrote in the OP is not exaggerated (mostly) and I wouldn’t have ever come here if it was the same. Sure you have to kill stuff and do dungeons to get rewards but without that, it wouldn’t really be much of a game.

I’d like to disagree. First of all I’ve never played subscribtion based games but several f2P games. Each one had a certain amount of grind involved. You are right when you say that there are not many content barriers in this game which require grinding.
And that’s a good thing.

However like in most games out there it depends on you goals if you have to grind. I was perfectly well playing a f2p game for nearly two years without grinding. The difference was that I would have never been able to catch up to do the endcontent but it does not mean that this game didn’t have things to enjoy and to play towards to.

Here I would say that many of the “top cosmetics” are only obtainable only by alot of repetitive playing which can be considered as grind. In that case it doesn’t matter if you do it optional. It is rather the way to get something which is rather boring than the fact that you don’t have to get that particular item. I am aware that grind can not be taken out entirely but I would like to see that they can come up with more interessting and challening mechanics even though I fear that would not even be appreciated by many people.

Kumakichi.2583:

“the grind” is a matter of perspective but mmo’s tend to tap into the OCD of a lot of players. They dump rediculous hours into an mmo to get all the best gear and coolest stuff. Then they are so burned out from grinding they usually hate the game and quit playing. I’ve watched this happen to several friends. Some have quit playing mmo’s altogether.

Ever knew anyone who worked harder at an MMO than at their job? Or worse, lost their job because they prioritized an MMO over their job? I gotta wonder how that happens…but it does.

I’m not blaming MMO’s for this; they didn’t force anyone to do anything. It’s just something that makes me go “hmmmmmm…”

Chuo.4238:

I sometimes wonder if the grind is the only thing keeping some people playing…

I realize that different people find different levels of grind acceptable. This is not what I am talking about though.

I’m curious how many just long in to do the daily laurel/fractal/dragon chest and then log off. I’m suspicious that this is why they put that stuff in there..to keep people playing just a little longer…

This is truth, just check the lag on events that give rares and check the lag on events in Lornar’s pass.
Also on LFG check CoF p1 posts. Many people just do daily so they wouldn’t fall behind gearwise (no treadmill of course) and then go play something else.

Chuo.4238:

Kumakichi.2583:

“the grind” is a matter of perspective but mmo’s tend to tap into the OCD of a lot of players. They dump rediculous hours into an mmo to get all the best gear and coolest stuff. Then they are so burned out from grinding they usually hate the game and quit playing. I’ve watched this happen to several friends. Some have quit playing mmo’s altogether.

Ever knew anyone who worked harder at an MMO than at their job? Or worse, lost their job because they prioritized an MMO over their job? I gotta wonder how that happens…but it does.

I’m not blaming MMO’s for this; they didn’t force anyone to do anything. It’s just something that makes me go “hmmmmmm…”

To be honest … I blame the player, just like I blame the heroin addict, not the heroin itself.

I chose GW2 to be my game of choice because I can actually alt+f4 and not lose sleep over it. In <other game>, going out means losing 1 day worth of DKP.

marnick.4305:

Chuo.4238:

Kumakichi.2583:

“the grind” is a matter of perspective but mmo’s tend to tap into the OCD of a lot of players. They dump rediculous hours into an mmo to get all the best gear and coolest stuff. Then they are so burned out from grinding they usually hate the game and quit playing. I’ve watched this happen to several friends. Some have quit playing mmo’s altogether.

Ever knew anyone who worked harder at an MMO than at their job? Or worse, lost their job because they prioritized an MMO over their job? I gotta wonder how that happens…but it does.

I’m not blaming MMO’s for this; they didn’t force anyone to do anything. It’s just something that makes me go “hmmmmmm…”

To be honest … I blame the player, just like I blame the heroin addict, not the heroin itself.

I chose GW2 to be my game of choice because I can actually alt+f4 and not lose sleep over it. In <other game>, going out means losing 1 day worth of DKP.

And i loose 1 day worth laurel if i don’t login 1 day.
And in “other game” to be honest…i blame the player, you don’t have to grind there if you don’t like it.

Sovta.4719:

marnick.4305:

Chuo.4238:

Kumakichi.2583:

“the grind” is a matter of perspective but mmo’s tend to tap into the OCD of a lot of players. They dump rediculous hours into an mmo to get all the best gear and coolest stuff. Then they are so burned out from grinding they usually hate the game and quit playing. I’ve watched this happen to several friends. Some have quit playing mmo’s altogether.

Ever knew anyone who worked harder at an MMO than at their job? Or worse, lost their job because they prioritized an MMO over their job? I gotta wonder how that happens…but it does.

I’m not blaming MMO’s for this; they didn’t force anyone to do anything. It’s just something that makes me go “hmmmmmm…”

To be honest … I blame the player, just like I blame the heroin addict, not the heroin itself.

I chose GW2 to be my game of choice because I can actually alt+f4 and not lose sleep over it. In <other game>, going out means losing 1 day worth of DKP.

And i loose 1 day worth laurel if i don’t login 1 day.
And in “other game” to be honest…i blame the player, you don’t have to grind there if you don’t like it.

You don’t lose a laurel, because you never had it. You simply don’t gain a laurel. Not quite the same thing.

How is it different?
I don’t play 1 day there, i don’t get something i need for doing end game.
I don’t play 1 day here, i don’t get something i need for doing end game.(farming/grinding is not end game, or is it?)
Also you get points for raid there, points for guild missions here. Only difference is guild missions are nowhere near epic.

I’ve played Aion(for about 1-2 months), WoW(6 years), WAR, SWTOR, Eve, Tera (3 months), Rift, and now Guild Wars 2.

I know Aion has an insane grind at higher levels, and so does Tera. But this game is nipping at their heels, maybe even passing them.

Whether or not you think people like me are misinformed or dilusional, the fact that so many people feel GW2 is a grind when the game was highly touted as a non-grinding game, is a problem. Perception is reality. If a large portion of the playerbase feels that the game is grindy, it probably is.

Among other reasons, this is why I have stopped playing. I don’t need a second job. I have a regular 9-5, then upkeep at home and a family to spend time with. I don’t need to feel compelled to log into a game to do dailys or dragon chest farm just to keep up with the masses.

This is not why I bought the game.
So disappointed.

Sovta.4719:

How is it different?
I don’t play 1 day there, i don’t get something i need for doing end game.
I don’t play 1 day here, i don’t get something i need for doing end game.(farming/grinding is not end game, or is it?)
Also you get points for raid there, points for guild missions here. Only difference is guild missions are nowhere near epic.

Point one, you don’t need anything from the laurel vendor to play end game. You really don’t. I play end game without it. You perceive a need that’s not there. That’s on you.

But it’s still different.

Someone gets something for doing something. That’s a reward they get. If you don’t do it, you don’t get that reward. But nothing’s been taken away from you because you never had it.

It’s only been taken away from you if you had it already and lost it. Admittedly it’s semantics, but when you’re on a text forum, words and meanings are sorta everything.

DeWolfe.2174:

The constant nerf’s and shifting around of the game dynamics makes it feel grindy too. Because you feel like you are playing catch up. Honestly, when was the last time you had a moment when you said “Yay” or “Awesome” in the game? That’s the grind, how the games feels…

Last week when our guild managed to finish their first bounty and the week before when we managed to kill simin and basically everytime I discover a new hidden place in Orr.

cesmode.4257:

I’ve played Aion(for about 1-2 months), WoW(6 years), WAR, SWTOR, Eve, Tera (3 months), Rift, and now Guild Wars 2.

I know Aion has an insane grind at higher levels, and so does Tera. But this game is nipping at their heels, maybe even passing them.

Whether or not you think people like me are misinformed or dilusional, the fact that so many people feel GW2 is a grind when the game was highly touted as a non-grinding game, is a problem. Perception is reality. If a large portion of the playerbase feels that the game is grindy, it probably is.

Among other reasons, this is why I have stopped playing. I don’t need a second job. I have a regular 9-5, then upkeep at home and a family to spend time with. I don’t need to feel compelled to log into a game to do dailys or dragon chest farm just to keep up with the masses.

This is not why I bought the game.
So disappointed.

I was used to doing a normal daily, crafting daily, anywhere from 1 to 5 faction dailies, dungeon daily, pvp daily, raid weekly, and anything else I forgot an it definitely felt like a second job. Here my one daily takes 15 minutes, I never dragon farm, and really don’t NEED either to keep up with anyone. Tbh, I am a little surprised that after 6 years of WoW, you would call GW2 a second job.

As far as “perception is reality”, a lot of people used the perceive that the earth was flat. :p

Aank.4837:

DeWolfe.2174:

This game has grind because there is only one real method of getting what you want, by killing.

I did try to ask mobs politely for exotics but they just made funny noises and tried to hit me.

I was pretty floored by this comment. The only method of getting what you want is by killing things? Seriously?

You can get a Legendary weapon by sitting in town and playing the Trading Post all day.

You can get to level 80 by crafting stuff, and if you know how to buy/sell mats intelligently you can actually make a decent (if sometimes slow) profit. Not to mention that gathering materials doesn’t need to involve any combat at all.

Most of the POIs and Vistas can be gotten through avoiding combat. Many of the renown hearts can be achieved through non-combat methods.

There are even loads of DEs that involve just running around and picking stuff up off the ground.

Heck, you can even participate in WvW as an active scout, be invaluable to your server, and never once strike another toon.

GW2 is the first MMO I’ve ever played where it’s realistic to play a fully pacifist character and still be able to participate in a surprising portion of the content.

As for grind….this game has no grind. None of the difficult to get stuff is required, max stat gear is easily attainable. Farming stuff for a Legendary is the most “grind” that this game offers, and even that is doable in a few months if you absolutely must have the pretty weapon skin.

Vayne.8563:

Sovta.4719:

How is it different?
I don’t play 1 day there, i don’t get something i need for doing end game.
I don’t play 1 day here, i don’t get something i need for doing end game.(farming/grinding is not end game, or is it?)
Also you get points for raid there, points for guild missions here. Only difference is guild missions are nowhere near epic.

Point one, you don’t need anything from the laurel vendor to play end game. You really don’t. I play end game without it. You perceive a need that’s not there. That’s on you.

But it’s still different.

Someone gets something for doing something. That’s a reward they get. If you don’t do it, you don’t get that reward. But nothing’s been taken away from you because you never had it.

It’s only been taken away from you if you had it already and lost it. Admittedly it’s semantics, but when you’re on a text forum, words and meanings are sorta everything.

FotM? If your end game are those 3 events in Orr that everybody farm then good luck. And don’t you think Agony will be introduced in other places in next patches?
Nothing has been taken away from me? Did you read about Guild Mission issues????!?!

GET READY FOR A WALL OF TEXT ABOUT GRIND

OP’s post is exactly why I left Final Fantasy 11. Except add that fighting any enemy high enough level to grant EXP requires a team of six players with substantial coordination where you will be considered unforgivably rude if you participate for less than two solid hours. Also, the 1-3 hours you spent standing around the main hub city finding the right team members for a battle-capable party (remember, 50-70% of any server’s population is Japanese players who HATE YOU LIKE YOU MURDERED THEIR PARENTS), and then the 40 minutes you all spent just finding a place to fight things that occupy the extremely narrow overlap of “grants EXP”, “we can kill with any reasonable speed” and “not currently being killed by too many other groups for us to share the respawns” , none of that time counts towards that party commitment, so to get a fraction of a level you need to treat the game like a full-time job. And to be considered minimally competent at your main class, you also have to do all this to level up at least one secondary class to at least half the level cap (my character had seven such support jobs that he used for various tasks). And every tier of story/faction/mission advancement requires unlocking by grinding faction reputation through arcane methods that are never explained, but often require quest items on a >1% chance to drop from enemies many levels higher than the mission you’re trying to reach, so you either have to completely out-level them or else mooch a party spot with people who are way higher level than you, which will NEVER EVER HAPPEN. And the reward for that grinding is a series of roadblock quests with dry uninformative cutscenes that glacially advance the plot, and that may require as many as three such teams in an alliance. And those roadblock quests give vendor trash or less as rewards to players who repeat them, crappy EXP to level-appropriate players and ZERO EXP to players who are above the quest level cap, so good luck getting a group together if you miss the initial rush after a new content release. And then, if you get the team together, if one of you makes a mistake as simple as delaying a skill or spell a few seconds, the whole team may die, and death removes 10% of the EXP it will take to reach the next level (a quantity that can take hours to earn at higher levels), with NO LIMIT to the number of times you can be hit by this penalty, making it theoretically possible to de-level yourself from the cap (currently 99 or 100 I think?) down to 10 where that penalty kicks in. So causing a party wipe often makes tempers flare to the point that people declare permanent Internet Jihad against the whole kitten team, diminishing your total pool of available players to team with every time somebody glances away from the monitor to answer their spouse’s question or move the cat off the keyboard.

And all of this is just to LEVEL UP and complete BASIC STORY MISSIONS which are often ESSENTIAL TO UNLOCK PHYSICAL ACCESS TO POPULAR LEVELING LOCATIONS. Actual dungeons, raids and top-tier rare monster fights sometimes require leagues of multiple 18-man alliances, and those massive leagues still fail more often than not.

A number of my acquaintances with more MMORPG experience than me considered FFXI “too casual”.

If there is a grind in GW2, it is too slight for me to even register. I’m not saying that the game couldn’t be improved by removing grind entirely, but I am saying that statements that this game is unusually grindy for an MMORPG are so absurd that they rob the people who suggest them of any credibility, for all time.

Melchior.2135:

If there is a grind in GW2, it is too slight for me to even register. I’m not saying that the game couldn’t be improved by removing grind entirely, but I am saying that statements that this game is unusually grindy for an MMORPG are so absurd that they rob the people who suggest them of any credibility, for all time.

Hearing people complain about grind in WoW kinda made sense. You could spend all day doing you MMO “job” and not get a chance to actually play (tho most could have done what I did and just quit the silly thing alltogether). But coming on here and reading posts that make dailies sound like a human rights violation, to me, is nothing short of completely bizarre.

Sovta.4719:

marnick.4305:

Chuo.4238:

Kumakichi.2583:

“the grind” is a matter of perspective but mmo’s tend to tap into the OCD of a lot of players. They dump rediculous hours into an mmo to get all the best gear and coolest stuff. Then they are so burned out from grinding they usually hate the game and quit playing. I’ve watched this happen to several friends. Some have quit playing mmo’s altogether.

Ever knew anyone who worked harder at an MMO than at their job? Or worse, lost their job because they prioritized an MMO over their job? I gotta wonder how that happens…but it does.

I’m not blaming MMO’s for this; they didn’t force anyone to do anything. It’s just something that makes me go “hmmmmmm…”

To be honest … I blame the player, just like I blame the heroin addict, not the heroin itself.

I chose GW2 to be my game of choice because I can actually alt+f4 and not lose sleep over it. In <other game>, going out means losing 1 day worth of DKP.

And i loose 1 day worth laurel if i don’t login 1 day.
And in “other game” to be honest…i blame the player, you don’t have to grind there if you don’t like it.

Not like laurels as that big of a deal. 50 laurels are all you need per character, and I don’t care about gearing my alts.

Having a DKP gap could follow you for months, missing a few laurels is nothing in comparison.

Aank.4837:

cesmode.4257:

I’ve played Aion(for about 1-2 months), WoW(6 years), WAR, SWTOR, Eve, Tera (3 months), Rift, and now Guild Wars 2.

I know Aion has an insane grind at higher levels, and so does Tera. But this game is nipping at their heels, maybe even passing them.

Whether or not you think people like me are misinformed or dilusional, the fact that so many people feel GW2 is a grind when the game was highly touted as a non-grinding game, is a problem. Perception is reality. If a large portion of the playerbase feels that the game is grindy, it probably is.

Among other reasons, this is why I have stopped playing. I don’t need a second job. I have a regular 9-5, then upkeep at home and a family to spend time with. I don’t need to feel compelled to log into a game to do dailys or dragon chest farm just to keep up with the masses.

This is not why I bought the game.
So disappointed.

I was used to doing a normal daily, crafting daily, anywhere from 1 to 5 faction dailies, dungeon daily, pvp daily, raid weekly, and anything else I forgot an it definitely felt like a second job. Here my one daily takes 15 minutes, I never dragon farm, and really don’t NEED either to keep up with anyone. Tbh, I am a little surprised that after 6 years of WoW, you would call GW2 a second job.

As far as “perception is reality”, a lot of people used the perceive that the earth was flat. :p

I can do the daily in less time than it takes for my fiancée to watch her soap opera. Such a grind omg :p

And ye “perception is reality” has no merit amongst rational people. Facts are used to define reality, and factually this game doesn’t have much grind. Sure there’s a few optional grindy things but none of those are necessary to enjoy the game.

Sovta.4719:

Vayne.8563:

Sovta.4719:

How is it different?
I don’t play 1 day there, i don’t get something i need for doing end game.
I don’t play 1 day here, i don’t get something i need for doing end game.(farming/grinding is not end game, or is it?)
Also you get points for raid there, points for guild missions here. Only difference is guild missions are nowhere near epic.

Point one, you don’t need anything from the laurel vendor to play end game. You really don’t. I play end game without it. You perceive a need that’s not there. That’s on you.

But it’s still different.

Someone gets something for doing something. That’s a reward they get. If you don’t do it, you don’t get that reward. But nothing’s been taken away from you because you never had it.

It’s only been taken away from you if you had it already and lost it. Admittedly it’s semantics, but when you’re on a text forum, words and meanings are sorta everything.

FotM? If your end game are those 3 events in Orr that everybody farm then good luck. And don’t you think Agony will be introduced in other places in next patches?
Nothing has been taken away from me? Did you read about Guild Mission issues????!?!

FoTM can be run without ascended gear until level 10. At level 10, you can run it at level 10 over and over until you get rings. Keep in mind you can run level 10 with NO ascended gear, because people in my guild do it. If you run it ten times you AUTOMATICALLY get a ring.

The ring you get will take up to 5 AR. The 5 AR WILL get you to level 20. But you can get rings before that as part of your daily anyway. I did.

During this time if you’re running this enough to get the rings, which most people did (remember fractals existed before the ascended amulets or earrings), you can get an exotic backpack for the tokens you get daily in the Fractals, which you can then “ascend” for another 500 fractal relics (which I have a ton of).

This allows you to continue to do deeper and deeper fractals. In fact, before the earrings and amulet were out, people were doing higher level fractals. So you don’t need them, whether they introduce them elsewhere or not. In any event by the time they do introduce them elsewhere, there will probably be easier and more ways to get them. So it would be better if you stopped making stuff up.

There are explorable mode dungeons and fractals for end game, plus WvW and SPvP. I have people in my guild who do all of these, who have no fractal amulets or earrings. Thus, there is end game attainable that you can do without laurels or guild commendations.

In fact, you can’t name content you need an amulet and guild earrings for that constitutes end game.

And let’s keep in mind you can start getting fractal skins from level 20 in the fractals, for which you need nothing from laurels or guild missions.

Maybe you need to do a bit of research before stating things that aren’t true.