Guild Wars 2

But can you PLEASE fix fractal rewards?
I don’t think it’s just me but pre patch I was getting a weapon around 40% of the time, about 1 every other run at level 49.
Since patch was released I’ve done 42 runs on level 49 and received 2 weapons.
The gold is crap.
The karma is less.
But if anything, fix the skin drop rate.
It’s one thing to not make the rewards improved when you said you had, it’s another to make them worse.

HykCraft.4610:

Welcome to Bug Wars 2.

Fixed

At least you don’t have to grind grind grind just to get the ascended weapon/armor required for agony resist slots if you want to do high level challenging stuff.

Oh wait.

“At least you don’t have to grind grind grind just to get the ascended weapon/armor required for agony resist slots if you want to do high level challenging stuff.

Oh wait."

Don’t worry I am sure they will add some other super easy way to obtain all that in a few months making most players work a waste of time. Oh and they will add fire to all the armor and sell them on the gem store for a markup.

fadeaway.2807:

At least you don’t have to grind grind grind just to get the ascended weapon/armor required for agony resist slots if you want to do high level challenging stuff.

Oh wait.

I know, but I guess if you can’t afford or don’t want to grind for the armour or weapons, once you finally get all those ascended accessories on one character there’s no more grind for the extra agony resist require for high levels.

Hang on..

As long as you mind being locked into 1 spec on 1 character.

hmm.

Well, everyone knows the best games give you everything right away and leave you nothing to work towards, right? Effort is for the lazy! Only the truly dedicated are apathetic enough to have earned everything given to them in the beginning!

“we don’t make grindy games”

“‘We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun.”

“It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.”

The nice thing is… they’ve kept to this. We aren’t required to grind in GW2. You don’t need to spend off-raid days grinding away in preparation for raid days where you grind away for gear to access the next tier of raid to grind away for more gear… ad nauseum.

That’s not true Volkon. I have many friends who want to play fotm49 but are capped at fotm39 because they don’t have enough gold to buy ascended armor/weapons.. which would be the only way they could get enough agony resist. We are required to grind gold if we want to play the challenging fractal levels.

If I wanted a gear-gated pve experience I would play another game.

VOLKON.1290:

“It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.”

The nice thing is… they’ve kept to this. We aren’t required to grind in GW2. You don’t need to spend off-raid days grinding away in preparation for raid days where you grind away for gear to access the next tier of raid to grind away for more gear… ad nauseum.

I don’t find running around watering crops and feeding cows to complete a heart at level 1 fun.
I don’t find running mindlessly through every map doing boring repetitive events for gold and map completion.
I find challenging content much like what’s seen in high level Fractals fun, but you’re right I don’t have to grind to be able to par take in tha- wait.

Bagel.4598:

VOLKON.1290:

“It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.”

The nice thing is… they’ve kept to this. We aren’t required to grind in GW2. You don’t need to spend off-raid days grinding away in preparation for raid days where you grind away for gear to access the next tier of raid to grind away for more gear… ad nauseum.

I don’t find running around watering crops and feeding cows to complete a heart at level 1 fun.
I don’t find running mindlessly through every map doing boring repetitive events for gold and map completion.
I find challenging content much like what’s seen in high level Fractals fun, but you’re right I don’t have to grind to be able to par take in tha- wait.

Partake is one word.

I have 80s that leveled up completely in WvW, never fed a cow, nor have they run through any maps. You do what you choose. You’re not required to grind through Fractals to get to later content (as you were in other games where only gearing up from the prior raid allowed you access to the newest raid/dungeon release). Yes, there are time sinks, there’s content that takes time. Optional time. Do what you like, don’t do what you don’t.

I like doing high level fractals.
I don’t like grinding for gold.

What now, Volk?

VOLKON.1290:

Bagel.4598:

VOLKON.1290:

“It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.”

The nice thing is… they’ve kept to this. We aren’t required to grind in GW2. You don’t need to spend off-raid days grinding away in preparation for raid days where you grind away for gear to access the next tier of raid to grind away for more gear… ad nauseum.

I don’t find running around watering crops and feeding cows to complete a heart at level 1 fun.
I don’t find running mindlessly through every map doing boring repetitive events for gold and map completion.
I find challenging content much like what’s seen in high level Fractals fun, but you’re right I don’t have to grind to be able to par take in tha- wait.

Partake is one word.

I have 80s that leveled up completely in WvW, never fed a cow, nor have they run through any maps. You do what you choose. You’re not required to grind through Fractals to get to later content (as you were in other games where only gearing up from the prior raid allowed you access to the newest raid/dungeon release). Yes, there are time sinks, there’s content that takes time. Optional time. Do what you like, don’t do what you don’t.

Fractals is later content. You can jump in to anything from the get go. But you have to grind through fractals and gear to play high levels.
Doing what I like is hard content and that has been grindy gear gated.

fadeaway.2807:

I like doing high level fractals.
I don’t like grinding for gold.

What now, Volk?

Then do Fractals. Your choice.

I don’t grind for gold. I loot it off the dead in WvW.

VOLKON.1290:

fadeaway.2807:

I like doing high level fractals.
I don’t like grinding for gold.

What now, Volk?

Then do Fractals. Your choice.

I don’t grind for gold. I loot it off the dead in WvW.

Ah that’s where your wrong.
In this situation I cannot do fractals because the agony resist slots which allow you to do level 40+ come on ascended gear.

I almost feel sorry for the dedicated few holding on to Anet’s vision and still defending them. Almost.

But to do or say the same thing over and over and expect something different is insanity, and I have no sympathy for self imposed insanity.

fadeaway.2807:

VOLKON.1290:

fadeaway.2807:

I like doing high level fractals.
I don’t like grinding for gold.

What now, Volk?

Then do Fractals. Your choice.

I don’t grind for gold. I loot it off the dead in WvW.

Ah that’s where your wrong.
In this situation I cannot do fractals because the agony resist slots which allow you to do level 40+ come on ascended gear.

Oh, I’m sorry… I didn’t realize no one was able to get to high end Fractals before they released the armor and weapons. Must have been one serious oversight on ANet’s part, eh?

You’re talking mechanical limitations. I did 49 when I had 20 resist (post patch).
I’m talking player imposed “you must have 65 ar to join” ones which are common in fractal groups and are a barrier to people who don’t want to grind gold for ascended gear.

With each post you make, you make it more clear that you don’t do fractals yourself.

VOLKON.1290:

fadeaway.2807:

VOLKON.1290:

fadeaway.2807:

I like doing high level fractals.
I don’t like grinding for gold.

What now, Volk?

Then do Fractals. Your choice.

I don’t grind for gold. I loot it off the dead in WvW.

Ah that’s where your wrong.
In this situation I cannot do fractals because the agony resist slots which allow you to do level 40+ come on ascended gear.

Oh, I’m sorry… I didn’t realize no one was able to get to high end Fractals before they released the armor and weapons. Must have been one serious oversight on ANet’s part, eh?

New end bosses with extra agony ticks make it impossible to do lvl 40+fractals without 50+ AR.
Before ascended weapons, to survive maw @ lvl 40 + required legendaries for enough AR.
To get higher than that people did alternate levels fo no daily reward.
So, yes.

Oh, at least you got two skins. I am doing Fractals level 40+ everyday and got zero, none, null (0) Fractal Weapon Skins.

fadeaway.2807:

You’re talking mechanical limitations. I did 49 when I had 20 resist (post patch).
I’m talking player imposed “you must have 65 ar to join” ones which are common in fractal groups and are a barrier to people who don’t want to grind gold for ascended gear.

With each post you make, you make it more clear that you don’t do fractals yourself.

So you’re saying that other players are making you grind?

Game “forces” me to grind PvE because I can’t earn enough money in WvW for legendary. 2G/h would take me a whole year or more.

Nick.6972:

Game “forces” me to grind PvE because I can’t earn enough money in WvW for legendary. 2G/h would take me a whole year or more.

And of course we all know that a Legendary weapon is required in order to progress in GW2, right? Or is this an optional grind because you’ve chosen to pursue a legendary weapon?

Each of you have validity in your comments, you should just agree to disagree; even though I would be leaning toward Bagel.

Yes, it’s stupid that we ‘need’ (used loosely) to grind in order to obtain gear that allows us to achieve enough AR to tackle high end fractals.

Yes, you don’t ‘have’ to grind that AR.

But, the validity in the concern with the player imposed -must have xx AR- is something that does happen. Even if Anets intent is to not impose these limitations, the current agony resist system does enforce this among the player base itself.

I’m sure had they taken the time or reflected on the current agony system and methods of obtaining them, they could tweak, balance and amend… but given the expansive nature of the game, I’m sure they’ve got an infinite number of things up on the whiteboard.

Baels.3469:

Each of you have validity in your comments, you should just agree to disagree; even though I would be leaning toward Bagel.

Yes, it’s stupid that we ‘need’ (used loosely) to grind in order to obtain gear that allows us to achieve enough AR to tackle high end fractals.

Yes, you don’t ‘have’ to grind that AR.

But, the validity in the concern with the player imposed -must have xx AR- is something that does happen. Even if Anets intent is to not impose these limitations, the current agony resist system does enforce this among the player base itself.

I’m sure had they taken the time or reflected on the current agony system and methods of obtaining them, they could tweak, balance and amend… but given the expansive nature of the game, I’m sure they’ve got an infinite number of things up on the whiteboard.

I honestly believe it is another hidden ploy to tempt players to the gemstore.
If players don’t want to grind or don’t have the gold to make any ascended gear, they need to resort to infusions for AR.
If they don’t have the gold to buy AR, or the time to farm THOUSANDS of infusions in fractals to reach that AR target needed, then hopefully they’ll resort to purchasing gems.
That or grind somewhere else in game for the gold required.
What it boils down to in every direction is a grind of some form.

Bagel.4598:

Baels.3469:

Each of you have validity in your comments, you should just agree to disagree; even though I would be leaning toward Bagel.

Yes, it’s stupid that we ‘need’ (used loosely) to grind in order to obtain gear that allows us to achieve enough AR to tackle high end fractals.

Yes, you don’t ‘have’ to grind that AR.

But, the validity in the concern with the player imposed -must have xx AR- is something that does happen. Even if Anets intent is to not impose these limitations, the current agony resist system does enforce this among the player base itself.

I’m sure had they taken the time or reflected on the current agony system and methods of obtaining them, they could tweak, balance and amend… but given the expansive nature of the game, I’m sure they’ve got an infinite number of things up on the whiteboard.

I honestly believe it is another hidden ploy to tempt players to the gemstore.
If players don’t want to grind or don’t have the gold to make any ascended gear, they need to resort to infusions for AR.
If they don’t have the gold to buy AR, or the time to farm THOUSANDS of infusions in fractals to reach that AR target needed, then hopefully they’ll resort to purchasing gems.
That or grind somewhere else in game for the gold required.
What it boils down to in every direction is a grind of some form.

Hardly a “hidden” ploy. It’s clearly their new business model. They want to get as close to pay-to-win as possible but still far enough away that there’ll still be white knights saying that “you don’t have to…”

Edit: “pay” to win, not “play” to win.

Ah, we’ve finally devolved into conspiracy mode.

And thus dies the thread.

In what way can buying gems shortcut the process of improving your agony resist?

VOLKON.1290:

Ah, we’ve finally devolved into conspiracy mode.

And thus dies the thread.

Ah our arguments have finally been defeated left right and centre and another point that I can’t defend comes up. Better switch to tragic response mode.

Astraea.6075:

In what way can buying gems shortcut the process of improving your agony resist?

Buy gems → exchange gems to gold → Buy infusions off TP with gold.

Bagel.4598:

VOLKON.1290:

Ah, we’ve finally devolved into conspiracy mode.

And thus dies the thread.

Ah our arguments have finally been defeated left right and centre and another point that I can’t defend comes up. Better switch to tragic response mode.

You’re changing the argument to a conspiracy theory, then claiming victory? Well… ok, nothing to see here folks.

VOLKON.1290:

Bagel.4598:

VOLKON.1290:

Ah, we’ve finally devolved into conspiracy mode.

And thus dies the thread.

Ah our arguments have finally been defeated left right and centre and another point that I can’t defend comes up. Better switch to tragic response mode.

You’re changing the argument to a conspiracy theory, then claiming victory? Well… ok, nothing to see here folks.

I agree with VOLKON (see I’m not always contrary). When ANet wants us to buy gems, they aren’t subtle.

Lord Kuru.3685:

Hardly a “hidden” ploy. It’s clearly their new business model. They want to get as close to play-to-win as possible but still far enough away that there’ll still be white knights saying that “you don’t have to…”

Did you mean “pay to win” or “play to win”, because it’s really hard to win games you don’t play. Unless that Vabbian Prince really is trying to find me with loads of rubies and diamonds . . .

TooBz.3065:

VOLKON.1290:

Bagel.4598:

VOLKON.1290:

Ah, we’ve finally devolved into conspiracy mode.

And thus dies the thread.

Ah our arguments have finally been defeated left right and centre and another point that I can’t defend comes up. Better switch to tragic response mode.

You’re changing the argument to a conspiracy theory, then claiming victory? Well… ok, nothing to see here folks.

I agree with VOLKON (see I’m not always contrary). When ANet wants us to buy gems, they aren’t subtle.

They trot out the unlimited gathering tools or put the Digital Deluxe on sale (again), or bank expansion tabs, or half a dozen other things.

Is it weird there were complaints to this when the Xunlai Expansions went from potentially having 4 bank tabs to 8? Including claims of “pay to win”?

VOLKON.1290:

Bagel.4598:

VOLKON.1290:

Ah, we’ve finally devolved into conspiracy mode.

And thus dies the thread.

Ah our arguments have finally been defeated left right and centre and another point that I can’t defend comes up. Better switch to tragic response mode.

You’re changing the argument to a conspiracy theory, then claiming victory? Well… ok, nothing to see here folks.

How was I changing the argument? I proved my point on how Agony resist is a required grind for high level fractals, and then I made the comment about WHY Anet put the required grind in, which was to make money from the gemstore.
My argument stays the same.
All you’re doing is replying with false snide remarks in an attempt to hide the fact that 99% of the people in this thread rightfully disagree with you.
Learn to accept when you are wrong.

Bagel.4598:

All you’re doing is replying with false snide remarks in an attempt to hide the fact that 99% of the people in this thread rightfully disagree with you.
Learn to accept when you are wrong.

Ah, sorry, being disagreed with doesn’t make you wrong. Otherwise you’d be wrong when you pop into threads where you’re in the minority of opinions.

Also, your comment is valid. If you gotta disagree, have some substance to it.

fadeaway.2807:

Volkon makes idiotic defenses of arenanet’s failing of the manifesto in every thread possible.
It’s not worth talking to him about it. Fanboy.

We all know there’s a grind.

There’s always a grind, in every game, ever. EVER. I could make a case for almost every game to be a grind, or have grind in it. That’s not the point anywhere near the topic of the top post.

Meanwhile, back on topic . . .

The top post is pretty much just asking for Fractal Weapons to be increasingly more available the higher you go. I’m not convinced this request is entirely out of line. I am concerned following through could actually have consequences which may cause the prestige value to drop like a rock.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Bagel.4598:

All you’re doing is replying with false snide remarks in an attempt to hide the fact that 99% of the people in this thread rightfully disagree with you.
Learn to accept when you are wrong.

Ah, sorry, being disagreed with doesn’t make you wrong. Otherwise you’d be wrong when you pop into threads where you’re in the minority of opinions.

Also, your comment is valid. If you gotta disagree, have some substance to it.

When you’re posting in threads saying this game doesnt force you to acquire ascended gear, when an area of the game REQUIRES you to have ascended gear to hold infusions, you are wrong.
Disagreeing doesn’t directly relate to opinions, in this case disagreeing is not conforming to someone’s falsely perceived game mechanics.

It seems that there is one simple fact that a lot of people don’t seem to understand:

ANet specifically created fractals in order to give people who enjoy grinding a vertical gear grind.

Yes, they made some thing that was grindy. Because people who like to grind were complaining they had nothing to do.

Many people are also missing this other simple fact:

ANet never said they wanted to make GW2 to be a game which had zero things to grind. They said that they didn’t want to make any mandatory grinding. That is, they didn’t want you to have to grind one part of a game in order to be able to do another part of a game.

And lets be clear what I mean when I say “part of a game”. No, early level fractals is not a separate part of the game as later level fractals; it’s all fractals. Low level fractals are the same content as high level fractals, it’s just that the difficulty is scaled up. What would qualify as being a grind gated mechanic was if you had to complete the dredge fractal 30 times before you were ever allowed to step foot into the swamp fractal.

There is no aspect of the game that you have to grind in order to participate in another aspect of the game. This is what they mean by not being grindy. You do not have to farm the same 3 boar camp spawns for 5 hours just to get to the next level so that you can move on to farming the same 3 dire boar camp spawns for 5 hours.

I feel like any one who complains about GW2 being a grindy game should be forced to level an Everquest character to max level before being allowed to resume posting.

You do not understand what grinding even means.

(And no, shiny armor and weapons do not count as content in this context, shiny things are rewards, things that you do are content)

Bagel.4598:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Bagel.4598:

All you’re doing is replying with false snide remarks in an attempt to hide the fact that 99% of the people in this thread rightfully disagree with you.
Learn to accept when you are wrong.

Ah, sorry, being disagreed with doesn’t make you wrong. Otherwise you’d be wrong when you pop into threads where you’re in the minority of opinions.

Also, your comment is valid. If you gotta disagree, have some substance to it.

When you’re posting in threads saying this game doesnt force you to acquire ascended gear, when an area of the game REQUIRES you to have ascended gear to hold infusions, you are wrong.
Disagreeing doesn’t directly relate to opinions, in this case disagreeing is not conforming to someone’s falsely perceived game mechanics.

Yes and no. He had a valid point, it just was not near the context of the topic. Your complaint and point is valid, also. But we’re getting off topic talking about it being off topic. I’m gonna stop before there’s a flag on the play.

Bagel.4598:

Baels.3469:

Each of you have validity in your comments, you should just agree to disagree; even though I would be leaning toward Bagel.

Yes, it’s stupid that we ‘need’ (used loosely) to grind in order to obtain gear that allows us to achieve enough AR to tackle high end fractals.

Yes, you don’t ‘have’ to grind that AR.

But, the validity in the concern with the player imposed -must have xx AR- is something that does happen. Even if Anets intent is to not impose these limitations, the current agony resist system does enforce this among the player base itself.

I’m sure had they taken the time or reflected on the current agony system and methods of obtaining them, they could tweak, balance and amend… but given the expansive nature of the game, I’m sure they’ve got an infinite number of things up on the whiteboard.

I honestly believe it is another hidden ploy to tempt players to the gemstore.
If players don’t want to grind or don’t have the gold to make any ascended gear, they need to resort to infusions for AR.
If they don’t have the gold to buy AR, or the time to farm THOUSANDS of infusions in fractals to reach that AR target needed, then hopefully they’ll resort to purchasing gems.
That or grind somewhere else in game for the gold required.
What it boils down to in every direction is a grind of some form.

Your conspiracy theory is the hidden ploy part.

It is interesting to me to see people complaining about FoTM being grindy…when they were introduced to be exactly that. Is it really that surprising that the last level of FoTM, meant to be a long term goal and placate those who want a grind, is grindy?

It’s also always funny to me, that at least half the time people resort to simply saying anyone who disagrees with them is a fanboy. As if the only really valid opinions are of those who feel it’s too “grindy”. Everyone else is just wrong.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Bagel.4598:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Bagel.4598:

All you’re doing is replying with false snide remarks in an attempt to hide the fact that 99% of the people in this thread rightfully disagree with you.
Learn to accept when you are wrong.

Ah, sorry, being disagreed with doesn’t make you wrong. Otherwise you’d be wrong when you pop into threads where you’re in the minority of opinions.

Also, your comment is valid. If you gotta disagree, have some substance to it.

When you’re posting in threads saying this game doesnt force you to acquire ascended gear, when an area of the game REQUIRES you to have ascended gear to hold infusions, you are wrong.
Disagreeing doesn’t directly relate to opinions, in this case disagreeing is not conforming to someone’s falsely perceived game mechanics.

Yes and no. He had a valid point, it just was not near the context of the topic. Your complaint and point is valid, also. But we’re getting off topic talking about it being off topic. I’m gonna stop before there’s a flag on the play.

I understand that your argument is based off a technicality. There is no dispute that you can physically do Fractals without any ascended equipment.
But we are not talking about a literal block to do Fractals, we are talking about a vertical grind that we must go through, in order to complete further in areas of the dungeon.
That would be like locking you out of Fireheart rise and saying, “ok you’ve done some of the map, so yes you can do hearts and what not. However you need to be wearing exotics before you can complete this higher level area for better rewards”.
You cannot make a game on the basis that it is not grindy, and then implement rewards, cosmetic or otherwise, and tell people they can only acquire it if the participate in the grind.

Evelynddra.9265:

Bagel.4598:

Baels.3469:

Each of you have validity in your comments, you should just agree to disagree; even though I would be leaning toward Bagel.

Yes, it’s stupid that we ‘need’ (used loosely) to grind in order to obtain gear that allows us to achieve enough AR to tackle high end fractals.

Yes, you don’t ‘have’ to grind that AR.

But, the validity in the concern with the player imposed -must have xx AR- is something that does happen. Even if Anets intent is to not impose these limitations, the current agony resist system does enforce this among the player base itself.

I’m sure had they taken the time or reflected on the current agony system and methods of obtaining them, they could tweak, balance and amend… but given the expansive nature of the game, I’m sure they’ve got an infinite number of things up on the whiteboard.

I honestly believe it is another hidden ploy to tempt players to the gemstore.
If players don’t want to grind or don’t have the gold to make any ascended gear, they need to resort to infusions for AR.
If they don’t have the gold to buy AR, or the time to farm THOUSANDS of infusions in fractals to reach that AR target needed, then hopefully they’ll resort to purchasing gems.
That or grind somewhere else in game for the gold required.
What it boils down to in every direction is a grind of some form.

Your conspiracy theory is the hidden ploy part.

It is interesting to me to see people complaing about FoTM being grindy…when they were introuduced to be excatly that. Is it really that surprising that the last level of FoTM, meant to be a long term goal and placate those who want a grind, is grindy?

It’s also always funny to me, that at least half the time people resort to simply saying anyone who disagrees with them is a fanboy. As if the only really valid opinion are those who feel it’s too “grindy”. Everyone else is just wrong.

Implementing a separate area for people who just want to grind, where those who do not want to grind cannot acquire exclusive rewards is opposite to what they claimed their vision was.
This is the problem sPvP players had with no option of acquiring legendaries unless they did PvE.

Most of the comments in this thread are way off topic and are in retaliation to whoever started it.
My issue in this thread is not with ascended gear but with the nerfed rewards based on experience and numbers after an update with which they claimed the rewards were improved.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Hardly a “hidden” ploy. It’s clearly their new business model. They want to get as close to play-to-win as possible but still far enough away that there’ll still be white knights saying that “you don’t have to…”

Did you mean “pay to win” or “play to win”, because it’s really hard to win games you don’t play. Unless that Vabbian Prince really is trying to find me with loads of rubies and diamonds . . .

Yeah, I meant “pay-to-win” (edited now) …. big difference that one letter makes.

VOLKON.1290:

Well, everyone knows the best games give you everything right away and leave you nothing to work towards, right? Effort is for the lazy! Only the truly dedicated are apathetic enough to have earned everything given to them in the beginning!

GW1 was that way as far as stats and is among the highest selling games… it was just the different looks that took time to acquire. GW2 was shaping up to be that way until ascended armor. Still it’s not AS bad as people try to make it out to be.

Bagel.4598:

I understand that your argument is based off a technicality. There is no dispute that you can physically do Fractals without any ascended equipment.
But we are not talking about a literal block to do Fractals, we are talking about a vertical grind that we must go through, in order to complete further in areas of the dungeon.
That would be like locking you out of Fireheart rise and saying, “ok you’ve done some of the map, so yes you can do hearts and what not. However you need to be wearing exotics before you can complete this higher level area for better rewards”.
You cannot make a game on the basis that it is not grindy, and then implement rewards, cosmetic or otherwise, and tell people they can only acquire it if the participate in the grind.

Yes you can. Guild Wars 1 was such a game. And people seem to have really liked it.

Lord Kuru.3685:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Hardly a “hidden” ploy. It’s clearly their new business model. They want to get as close to play-to-win as possible but still far enough away that there’ll still be white knights saying that “you don’t have to…”

Did you mean “pay to win” or “play to win”, because it’s really hard to win games you don’t play. Unless that Vabbian Prince really is trying to find me with loads of rubies and diamonds . . .

Yeah, I meant “pay-to-win” (edited now) …. big difference that one letter makes.

Okay, now we have a discussion.

And the important question I was going to ask until spotting that typo . . . what exactly are you “winning”?