Guild Wars 2

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Bagel.4598:

I understand that your argument is based off a technicality. There is no dispute that you can physically do Fractals without any ascended equipment.
But we are not talking about a literal block to do Fractals, we are talking about a vertical grind that we must go through, in order to complete further in areas of the dungeon.
That would be like locking you out of Fireheart rise and saying, “ok you’ve done some of the map, so yes you can do hearts and what not. However you need to be wearing exotics before you can complete this higher level area for better rewards”.
You cannot make a game on the basis that it is not grindy, and then implement rewards, cosmetic or otherwise, and tell people they can only acquire it if the participate in the grind.

Yes you can. Guild Wars 1 was such a game. And people seem to have really liked it.

Incorrect, you could sell those cosmetics.

Bagel.4598:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Bagel.4598:

I understand that your argument is based off a technicality. There is no dispute that you can physically do Fractals without any ascended equipment.
But we are not talking about a literal block to do Fractals, we are talking about a vertical grind that we must go through, in order to complete further in areas of the dungeon.
That would be like locking you out of Fireheart rise and saying, “ok you’ve done some of the map, so yes you can do hearts and what not. However you need to be wearing exotics before you can complete this higher level area for better rewards”.
You cannot make a game on the basis that it is not grindy, and then implement rewards, cosmetic or otherwise, and tell people they can only acquire it if the participate in the grind.

Yes you can. Guild Wars 1 was such a game. And people seem to have really liked it.

Incorrect, you could sell those cosmetics.

. . . you could sell Obsidian Armor? After it had been made? Why did nobody ever tell me this?! It changes everything!

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Bagel.4598:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Bagel.4598:

I understand that your argument is based off a technicality. There is no dispute that you can physically do Fractals without any ascended equipment.
But we are not talking about a literal block to do Fractals, we are talking about a vertical grind that we must go through, in order to complete further in areas of the dungeon.
That would be like locking you out of Fireheart rise and saying, “ok you’ve done some of the map, so yes you can do hearts and what not. However you need to be wearing exotics before you can complete this higher level area for better rewards”.
You cannot make a game on the basis that it is not grindy, and then implement rewards, cosmetic or otherwise, and tell people they can only acquire it if the participate in the grind.

Yes you can. Guild Wars 1 was such a game. And people seem to have really liked it.

Incorrect, you could sell those cosmetics.

. . . you could sell Obsidian Armor? After it had been made? Why did nobody ever tell me this?! It changes everything!

You could sell all the mats and the run to the vendor.
Yes you could buy your way to obby armour.

And laboring once more to get back ON topic:

Bagel.4598:

Most of the comments in this thread are way off topic and are in retaliation to whoever started it.
My issue in this thread is not with ascended gear but with the nerfed rewards based on experience and numbers after an update with which they claimed the rewards were improved.

I’m wondering if this is a result of RNG distribution not favoring you as far as the weapon drops, or if it’s a situation like “Final Rest” where there is a bug in the code or it otherwise wasn’t implemented correctly.

In short: bad luck or bad code? Equally likely.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Hardly a “hidden” ploy. It’s clearly their new business model. They want to get as close to play-to-win as possible but still far enough away that there’ll still be white knights saying that “you don’t have to…”

Did you mean “pay to win” or “play to win”, because it’s really hard to win games you don’t play. Unless that Vabbian Prince really is trying to find me with loads of rubies and diamonds . . .

Yeah, I meant “pay-to-win” (edited now) …. big difference that one letter makes.

Okay, now we have a discussion.

And the important question I was going to ask until spotting that typo . . . what exactly are you “winning”?

Skin Progression. Since they won’t /don’t want actual character or gear progression in the game, they have cosmetic progression, which is what players would be trying to win.

Regardless the point of any game is to win, be it sports, video games, monopoly, etc. If you aren’t winning, you are losing.

Whether or not I agree with that, meh. But it is what it is, and how most people playing games are going to think, regardless.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And laboring once more to get back ON topic:

Bagel.4598:

Most of the comments in this thread are way off topic and are in retaliation to whoever started it.
My issue in this thread is not with ascended gear but with the nerfed rewards based on experience and numbers after an update with which they claimed the rewards were improved.

I’m wondering if this is a result of RNG distribution not favoring you as far as the weapon drops, or if it’s a situation like “Final Rest” where there is a bug in the code or it otherwise wasn’t implemented correctly.

In short: bad luck or bad code? Equally likely.

Only ANet could know.

Bagel.4598:

Evelynddra.9265:

Bagel.4598:

Baels.3469:

Each of you have validity in your comments, you should just agree to disagree; even though I would be leaning toward Bagel.

Yes, it’s stupid that we ‘need’ (used loosely) to grind in order to obtain gear that allows us to achieve enough AR to tackle high end fractals.

Yes, you don’t ‘have’ to grind that AR.

But, the validity in the concern with the player imposed -must have xx AR- is something that does happen. Even if Anets intent is to not impose these limitations, the current agony resist system does enforce this among the player base itself.

I’m sure had they taken the time or reflected on the current agony system and methods of obtaining them, they could tweak, balance and amend… but given the expansive nature of the game, I’m sure they’ve got an infinite number of things up on the whiteboard.

I honestly believe it is another hidden ploy to tempt players to the gemstore.
If players don’t want to grind or don’t have the gold to make any ascended gear, they need to resort to infusions for AR.
If they don’t have the gold to buy AR, or the time to farm THOUSANDS of infusions in fractals to reach that AR target needed, then hopefully they’ll resort to purchasing gems.
That or grind somewhere else in game for the gold required.
What it boils down to in every direction is a grind of some form.

Your conspiracy theory is the hidden ploy part.

It is interesting to me to see people complaing about FoTM being grindy…when they were introuduced to be excatly that. Is it really that surprising that the last level of FoTM, meant to be a long term goal and placate those who want a grind, is grindy?

It’s also always funny to me, that at least half the time people resort to simply saying anyone who disagrees with them is a fanboy. As if the only really valid opinion are those who feel it’s too “grindy”. Everyone else is just wrong.

Implementing a separate area for people who just want to grind, where those who do not want to grind cannot acquire is opposite to what they claimed their vision was.

Most of the comments in this thread are way off topic and are in retaliation to whoever started it.
My issue in this thread is not with ascended gear but with the nerfed rewards based on experience and numbers after an update with which they claimed the rewards were improved.

They never said there would be no grind whatsoever. If they did, I would greatly love to see that line. Hell, GW2 had grind even before FoTM and ascended. What these forums seem to call “grind” is present in a lot of RPGs. To the extent where I’d say it’s a part of the genre.

They have said there would be no grinding treadmill, which there isn’t. One new tier in the games lifetime thus far isn’t a very good treadmill. You aren’t forced to grind to experience content. Level 1 fractals are the same content as level 50.

As for the actual topic, increased rewards will always be seen as good thing. I personally do not have enough data to make a correct judgment on whether you’re lack of rewards are a bad RNG streak, or simply bad rewards as a whole. What I do know though, is I do often get bad RNG streaks…then chests with multiple good rewards.

Bagel.4598:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And laboring once more to get back ON topic:

Bagel.4598:

Most of the comments in this thread are way off topic and are in retaliation to whoever started it.
My issue in this thread is not with ascended gear but with the nerfed rewards based on experience and numbers after an update with which they claimed the rewards were improved.

I’m wondering if this is a result of RNG distribution not favoring you as far as the weapon drops, or if it’s a situation like “Final Rest” where there is a bug in the code or it otherwise wasn’t implemented correctly.

In short: bad luck or bad code? Equally likely.

Only ANet could know.

Here’s hoping they look at it. Start compiling data across several hundred people and several hundred runs and check the curve, then come back and present your data.

And with that, my contributions here are done

Evelynddra.9265:

Bagel.4598:

Evelynddra.9265:

Bagel.4598:

Baels.3469:

Each of you have validity in your comments, you should just agree to disagree; even though I would be leaning toward Bagel.

Yes, it’s stupid that we ‘need’ (used loosely) to grind in order to obtain gear that allows us to achieve enough AR to tackle high end fractals.

Yes, you don’t ‘have’ to grind that AR.

But, the validity in the concern with the player imposed -must have xx AR- is something that does happen. Even if Anets intent is to not impose these limitations, the current agony resist system does enforce this among the player base itself.

I’m sure had they taken the time or reflected on the current agony system and methods of obtaining them, they could tweak, balance and amend… but given the expansive nature of the game, I’m sure they’ve got an infinite number of things up on the whiteboard.

I honestly believe it is another hidden ploy to tempt players to the gemstore.
If players don’t want to grind or don’t have the gold to make any ascended gear, they need to resort to infusions for AR.
If they don’t have the gold to buy AR, or the time to farm THOUSANDS of infusions in fractals to reach that AR target needed, then hopefully they’ll resort to purchasing gems.
That or grind somewhere else in game for the gold required.
What it boils down to in every direction is a grind of some form.

Your conspiracy theory is the hidden ploy part.

It is interesting to me to see people complaing about FoTM being grindy…when they were introuduced to be excatly that. Is it really that surprising that the last level of FoTM, meant to be a long term goal and placate those who want a grind, is grindy?

It’s also always funny to me, that at least half the time people resort to simply saying anyone who disagrees with them is a fanboy. As if the only really valid opinion are those who feel it’s too “grindy”. Everyone else is just wrong.

Implementing a separate area for people who just want to grind, where those who do not want to grind cannot acquire is opposite to what they claimed their vision was.

Most of the comments in this thread are way off topic and are in retaliation to whoever started it.
My issue in this thread is not with ascended gear but with the nerfed rewards based on experience and numbers after an update with which they claimed the rewards were improved.

They never said there would be no grind whatsoever. If they did, I would greatly love to see that line. Hell, GW2 had grind even before FoTM and ascended. What these forums seem to call “grind” is present in a lot of RPGs. To the extent where I’d say it’s a part of the genre.

They have said there would be no grinding treadmill, which there isn’t. One new tier in the games lifetime thus far isn’t a very good treadmill. You aren’t forced to grind to experience content. Level 1 fractals are the same content as level 50.

As for the actual topic, increased rewards will always be seen as good thing. I personally do not have enough data to make a correct judgment on whether you’re lack of rewards are a bad RNG streak, or simply bad rewards as a whole. What I do know though, is I do often get bad RNG streaks…then chests with multiple good rewards.

On the basis that pre patch it was impossible to receive a Non-infused ring at level 40+ Fractals and post patch they are common in the same tier, I can confidently say the rewards are poorer.
I ignore gold as a reward because
A) They do not reflect time input in comparison with other dungeons
B) Gold is not an exclusive reward to Fractals.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Hardly a “hidden” ploy. It’s clearly their new business model. They want to get as close to play-to-win as possible but still far enough away that there’ll still be white knights saying that “you don’t have to…”

Did you mean “pay to win” or “play to win”, because it’s really hard to win games you don’t play. Unless that Vabbian Prince really is trying to find me with loads of rubies and diamonds . . .

Yeah, I meant “pay-to-win” (edited now) …. big difference that one letter makes.

Okay, now we have a discussion.

And the important question I was going to ask until spotting that typo . . . what exactly are you “winning”?

You’re “winning” Ascended gear because that’s apparently the endgame in GW2 (PvE).

In any case, this is a real issue in WvW. Paying for stats is pay-to-win and while we’re not literally there, we’re as close as Anet dares to go.

Bagel.4598:

Evelynddra.9265:

Bagel.4598:

Evelynddra.9265:

Bagel.4598:

Baels.3469:

Each of you have validity in your comments, you should just agree to disagree; even though I would be leaning toward Bagel.

Yes, it’s stupid that we ‘need’ (used loosely) to grind in order to obtain gear that allows us to achieve enough AR to tackle high end fractals.

Yes, you don’t ‘have’ to grind that AR.

But, the validity in the concern with the player imposed -must have xx AR- is something that does happen. Even if Anets intent is to not impose these limitations, the current agony resist system does enforce this among the player base itself.

I’m sure had they taken the time or reflected on the current agony system and methods of obtaining them, they could tweak, balance and amend… but given the expansive nature of the game, I’m sure they’ve got an infinite number of things up on the whiteboard.

I honestly believe it is another hidden ploy to tempt players to the gemstore.
If players don’t want to grind or don’t have the gold to make any ascended gear, they need to resort to infusions for AR.
If they don’t have the gold to buy AR, or the time to farm THOUSANDS of infusions in fractals to reach that AR target needed, then hopefully they’ll resort to purchasing gems.
That or grind somewhere else in game for the gold required.
What it boils down to in every direction is a grind of some form.

Your conspiracy theory is the hidden ploy part.

It is interesting to me to see people complaing about FoTM being grindy…when they were introuduced to be excatly that. Is it really that surprising that the last level of FoTM, meant to be a long term goal and placate those who want a grind, is grindy?

It’s also always funny to me, that at least half the time people resort to simply saying anyone who disagrees with them is a fanboy. As if the only really valid opinion are those who feel it’s too “grindy”. Everyone else is just wrong.

Implementing a separate area for people who just want to grind, where those who do not want to grind cannot acquire is opposite to what they claimed their vision was.

Most of the comments in this thread are way off topic and are in retaliation to whoever started it.
My issue in this thread is not with ascended gear but with the nerfed rewards based on experience and numbers after an update with which they claimed the rewards were improved.

They never said there would be no grind whatsoever. If they did, I would greatly love to see that line. Hell, GW2 had grind even before FoTM and ascended. What these forums seem to call “grind” is present in a lot of RPGs. To the extent where I’d say it’s a part of the genre.

They have said there would be no grinding treadmill, which there isn’t. One new tier in the games lifetime thus far isn’t a very good treadmill. You aren’t forced to grind to experience content. Level 1 fractals are the same content as level 50.

As for the actual topic, increased rewards will always be seen as good thing. I personally do not have enough data to make a correct judgment on whether you’re lack of rewards are a bad RNG streak, or simply bad rewards as a whole. What I do know though, is I do often get bad RNG streaks…then chests with multiple good rewards.

On the basis that pre patch it was impossible to receive a Non-infused ring at level 40+ Fractals and post patch they are common in the same tier, I can confidently say the rewards are poorer.
I ignore gold as a reward because
A) They do not reflect time input in comparison with other dungeons
B) Gold is not an exclusive reward to Fractals.

I would take up Tobias’ suggestion then. Unrecorded data from a single player isn’t going to change anything. For the loot bug previously it was data from many, many players that brought the bug to light.

You guys know arguing like this won’t advance the discussion, right?

Even if each of you have different views, or even if you have evidence the other person is flat out wrong in his/her logic…

…it doesn’t mean you have to reply just for the sake to shoot down his/her viewpoint. Just ignore it…and move on…

fadeaway.2807:

VOLKON.1290:

fadeaway.2807:

I like doing high level fractals.
I don’t like grinding for gold.

What now, Volk?

Then do Fractals. Your choice.

I don’t grind for gold. I loot it off the dead in WvW.

Ah that’s where your wrong.
In this situation I cannot do fractals because the agony resist slots which allow you to do level 40+ come on ascended gear.

So basically they still haven’t changed the enormous grind necessary to get ascended gear yet? Didn’t they see the community’s reaction when they released it?

The rewards system in this game has got to change if they expect to keep any kind of large numbers for very long especially with other anticipated titles coming over the bend.

Aeonblade.8709:

I almost feel sorry for the dedicated few holding on to Anet’s vision and still defending them. Almost.

But to do or say the same thing over and over and expect something different is insanity, and I have no sympathy for self imposed insanity.

I almost feel bad for people who need to demean people who have a different opinion than they do. Honestly, you have your opinion and your’e entitled to it. Saying that you feel bad for people who have a different opinion is borderline offensive, not to mention argumentative.

If you have something of substance to say to add to the discussion, by all means, bring it on.

But disparaging people for having an opinion that differs from yours?

Probably not the best thing to post on forums…even if you think it.

Vayne.8563:

Aeonblade.8709:

I almost feel sorry for the dedicated few holding on to Anet’s vision and still defending them. Almost.

But to do or say the same thing over and over and expect something different is insanity, and I have no sympathy for self imposed insanity.

I almost feel bad for people who need to demean people who have a different opinion than they do. Honestly, you have your opinion and your’e entitled to it. Saying that you feel bad for people who have a different opinion is borderline offensive, not to mention argumentative.

If you have something of substance to say to add to the discussion, by all means, bring it on.

But disparaging people for having an opinion that differs from yours?

Probably not the best thing to post on forums…even if you think it.

Which vision would that be? The vision pre-launch that’s nothing like the game now?
The vision from Nov 2012 where Fractals would be the end all be all of all new content? or the vision of the living story being an adequate replacement for the monthly updates to DEs/Metas we thought this game would be based on the prelaunch interviews? because in my experience their vision has been a little ADHD.

I thought that by now they would have realized the grind isn’t supposed to be part of their vision, or that mmo’s shouldn’t be second jobs, or that the crowd that contributed a significant amount to their success was as important as these constantly complaining hardcore players that want every mob to be a boss and every boss to be in an instance.

As far as rewards, I’d like to see some currency system that doesn’t require hours of mindless grind, I’d like to see fewer gold sinks for gear, and I’d like to see a system that doesn’t desparage crafters, I’d also like to see a system for cosmetic gear that doesn’t require boxes and that adds cosmetics new cosmetics monthly.

tigirius.9014:

Vayne.8563:

Aeonblade.8709:

I almost feel sorry for the dedicated few holding on to Anet’s vision and still defending them. Almost.

But to do or say the same thing over and over and expect something different is insanity, and I have no sympathy for self imposed insanity.

I almost feel bad for people who need to demean people who have a different opinion than they do. Honestly, you have your opinion and your’e entitled to it. Saying that you feel bad for people who have a different opinion is borderline offensive, not to mention argumentative.

If you have something of substance to say to add to the discussion, by all means, bring it on.

But disparaging people for having an opinion that differs from yours?

Probably not the best thing to post on forums…even if you think it.

Which vision would that be? The vision pre-launch that’s nothing like the game now?
The vision from Nov 2012 where Fractals would be the end all be all of all new content? or the vision of the living story being an adequate replacement for the monthly updates to DEs/Metas we thought this game would be based on the prelaunch interviews? because in my experience their vision has been a little ADHD.

I thought that by now they would have realized the grind isn’t supposed to be part of their vision, or that mmo’s shouldn’t be second jobs, or that the crowd that contributed a significant amount to their success was as important as these constantly complaining hardcore players that want every mob to be a boss and every boss to be in an instance.

As far as rewards, I’d like to see some currency system that doesn’t require hours of mindless grind, I’d like to see fewer gold sinks for gear, and I’d like to see a system that doesn’t desparage crafters, I’d also like to see a system for cosmetic gear that doesn’t require boxes and that adds cosmetics new cosmetics monthly.

I’m sorry were you defending someone for saying he felt sorry for people who like and defend this game…because it sounds like you are.

If you think those comments are okay, that’s fine. They’re not okay. They’re never going to be okay.

Whatever your opinion of the direction of the game, it’s not okay to get personal.

I am level 9 in fractals you know…and I feel good

it was about 28% at 49 from the analysis of many posters before patch..

But also it was 0% at 10 when i personally saw a lvl 10 drop.

Vayne.8563:

Aeonblade.8709:

I almost feel sorry for the dedicated few holding on to Anet’s vision and still defending them. Almost.

But to do or say the same thing over and over and expect something different is insanity, and I have no sympathy for self imposed insanity.

I almost feel bad for people who need to demean people who have a different opinion than they do. Honestly, you have your opinion and your’e entitled to it. Saying that you feel bad for people who have a different opinion is borderline offensive, not to mention argumentative.

If you have something of substance to say to add to the discussion, by all means, bring it on.

But disparaging people for having an opinion that differs from yours?

Probably not the best thing to post on forums…even if you think it.

I am entitled to my opinion the same way you are. If you find what I said offensive, that is an issue with you, not me, as it was not meant to be offensive. I can give you the definition of insanity if you like, but I have a feeling you know how to use google

At no point did I insult or attack anyone with that post, people just have my sympathy for doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results. However, if they do it to themselves, no sympathy should be given.

Aeonblade.8709:

At no point did I insult or attack anyone with that post, people just have my sympathy for doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results. However, if they do it to themselves, no sympathy should be given.

Aeonblade, you come on to these forums multiple times a week and complain. You complain about the same things every time and pretty much nothing has changed because of it.

Pot, meet kettle.

Aeonblade.8709:

Vayne.8563:

Aeonblade.8709:

I almost feel sorry for the dedicated few holding on to Anet’s vision and still defending them. Almost.

But to do or say the same thing over and over and expect something different is insanity, and I have no sympathy for self imposed insanity.

I almost feel bad for people who need to demean people who have a different opinion than they do. Honestly, you have your opinion and your’e entitled to it. Saying that you feel bad for people who have a different opinion is borderline offensive, not to mention argumentative.

If you have something of substance to say to add to the discussion, by all means, bring it on.

But disparaging people for having an opinion that differs from yours?

Probably not the best thing to post on forums…even if you think it.

I am entitled to my opinion the same way you are. If you find what I said offensive, that is an issue with you, not me, as it was not meant to be offensive. I can give you the definition of insanity if you like, but I have a feeling you know how to use google

At no point did I insult or attack anyone with that post, people just have my sympathy for doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results. However, if they do it to themselves, no sympathy should be given.

Being condescending is against forum rules. Saying that you almost feel sorry for people who think a certain way is condescending, and certainly could be considered offensive.

You shouldn’t feel sorry for people who are enjoying a game you don’t like. That makes no sense. They should feel sorry for you for you not enjoying it.

Since when is enjoying something something you need to sympathize with?

The implication here is that your way of thinking is correct and we’re somehow deluded for liking this game.

I think you need to really think about what you’re saying here.

Complaining about the effort getting to ascended armor instead of making it will not do anything for you.

Yea the reward is definitely nerfed in fractured.

Travis the Terrible.4739:

Complaining about the effort getting to ascended armor instead of making it will not do anything for you.

Because sitting around pledging on video about how you are against “boring, mundane, time wasting, unfun, poorly created games” is helping. I would think that the people who aren’t in denial are the people Anet wants to hear from, many of us are gone because of the polar opposite direction they turned after they got our money in the beginning and as customers we have the right to discuss and complain about all of it including the rewards nerfs (which were few and far between in the first place) as well as the lack of choices in reaching those rewards for progression.