Guild Wars 2

Loosifah.4739:

You do see that the gear progression was already in the game before ascended, right? This just proves that. Nobody has ascended yet and this is still happening for the new dungeon.

Before, the gear was not required, or even highly necessary. You could do almost all the content in the game in greens, or rares at the highest, and no one could easily tell if you were undergeared from how long you lived, hard you hit, etc.

Now, it can be pretty dramatic to see the difference, in even low levels of Fractal difficulty, between the geared and the not-so-geared. hence the change in attitudes.

Pretty funny how I was able to do the event on my engineer without special gear.

My engineer is level 65, yet I only died once and was able to solo Karkas on my own and I helped keep my group alive. As for my gear? All greens except for a rare rifle.

Its about skill. Nobody dumped me for my gear.

So your argument then is that more challenging content = discrimination?

I recall hearing many people argue “You could have just given us more challenging content and not added the ascended gear and this wouldn’t have been a problem”

Hycinthus.6483:

It makes a huge difference. Yesterday, I was in overflow doing the Lost Shores Phase 3 event, and at 2 hour 50 minute mark, we were still struggling at “Reinforcement phase 2”. Other servers are already done at 2 hour15 minute mark. We were late by about an hour. And mind you, we had as many people, if not more, than those other servers. I found out because I got disconnected, and ended up somewhere else.

Gears make a big difference.

No it doesnt. My level 65 Engineer died only once in the event. And I did not have special gear nor was I judged for not having it. I kept my group ALIVE and thats what mattered.

Loosifah.4739:

So your argument then is that more challenging content = discrimination?

I recall hearing many people argue “You could have just given us more challenging content and not added the ascended gear and this wouldn’t have been a problem”

Not sure you could call it challenge really. None of the boss mechanics I’ve seen are of a ridiculously high skill level. Some take a little time to puzzle out, some are just utterly random and you live and die by RNG. The gear difference comes from old school gear checks… having the DPS to get through a battle of attrition, the health pool to soak up the RNG hate, that sort of faux difficulty that goes away when you have better gear.

illgot.1056:

I remember WoW back when BC came out. I rerolled a Blood Elf Paly and by the time I actually hit max level I couldn’t find any groups on my server. Everyone had already moved on to raids. They were raiding and my gear was not good enough for them.

I was stuck. I could not find groups for basic instances to gear up and I could not get into raids due to my gear. That’s when I decided to quit WoW the first time.

I’m honestly worried that by the time I get around to leveling up my Warrior she really won’t be able to do the instance because everyone will only be running max level or be too busy running the next infusion base instance.

That is actually how WoW was up to Wrath, which is why I miss Vanilla and BC because it was a lot of work but very rewarding if you like that type of stuff. Even in Vanilla if you got into end gaming late while most guilds were on, let’s say AQ40 and you weren’t even in ZG gear, you were SOL unless you joined a noobish guild who still ran ZG and MC and could down a couple bosses. Then once you got some gear you moved on to a little better guild and got gear then moved on etc.

It was sucky to do to those guilds and I never did that as I stayed on top of it and was in very hard core top raiding guilds, but it was all you could do if you wanted to be in a good guild. But once you were, you HAD to put in the time too. 5-6 nights a week 5-6 hours just for raiding.

Also back then you could just buy all your gear with Valor etc. and do LFR for easy mode and free loots.

With what GW2 is doing now it feels like it may be the same way. Gotta get the gear to play which is what they said this game was not going to be about.

Loosifah.4739:

So your argument then is that more challenging content = discrimination?

I recall hearing many people argue “You could have just given us more challenging content and not added the ascended gear and this wouldn’t have been a problem”

No, personally I love more challenging content. But like you said, ascended gear wan’t necessary to make content harder. They just had to design it for rare/exotic-gear, shouldn’t have been a problem, I guess.

illgot.1056:

Wasselin.1235:

You aren’t wrong for doing so. There isn’t any way around thinking that way because it’s the truth. If players skill is equal than obviously the person with the full exotics is going to have an edge, however small. Also, just because how the game works the person with the exotics is most likely more experiences than the person without. It shows that they have at least spent more time playing the game.

Plus, the faster you can get things done, the more rewards there will be for you. The faster you can get geared up, the faster you’ll be able to complete fractals and that’s more rewards for you to enjoy the game. If you don’t keep up, soon you will be outpaced by everyone since inflation will price you out of the market.

I remember WoW back when BC came out. I rerolled a Blood Elf Paly and by the time I actually hit max level I couldn’t find any groups on my server. Everyone had already moved on to raids. They were raiding and my gear was not good enough for them.

I was stuck. I could not find groups for basic instances to gear up and I could not get into raids due to my gear. That’s when I decided to quit WoW the first time.

I’m honestly worried that by the time I get around to leveling up my Warrior she really won’t be able to do the instance because everyone will only be running max level or be too busy running the next infusion base instance.

Take this advice as you will, but I don’t know if it is healthy to have that kind of worry about a video game.

I know this is a hobby we all love, and try to be as good as we can at.

But at the end of the day that sort of worry should be reserved for true priorities such as family, loved ones, careers, your neighbours and so on.

Many of us thought GW2 would be the game that could fit into that kind of life balance. It might still be, but it is an open question now. Can GW2 escape the curse of the genre? The answer will be interesting to see.

AmBoSS.7129:

But still, when you make a party, wouldn’t you want players with the best gear, meaning exotic? The thing is, I don’t want that choise, because obviously I would take the better ones (not saying skill-wise, they could be bad players for that matter), and I think you would too. The ascended items will make that even worse, I think it is pretty reasonable to think so.

And because getting those ascened items is so hard (I hope they will, like you said, be easier availabe after time) and require a lot of playing, the playerbase will get divided and get “elitist”.

AmBoSS

When I make a party, I assume anyone running what I’m asking to run is confident enough in themselves to run the content, geared or not. I don’t automatically look for “best gear or gtfo, lol” and that assumption is dangerous. So dangerous in fact, that we have 10,000 posts crying over it.

It’s speculation based on previous MMO exposure. I don’t think GW2 is so stat reliant that gear is the deciding factor for success, as opposed to smart skill and defense CD use. I think this playerbase is so fixated on anti-power-creep that they forgot that gear doesn’t carry bad players in this game like it does in WoW.

As many have pointed out in this and several other threads, elitism is not going away, and if it’s not one reason it another.

“LFG 500+ hours played only.”
“OMG Ban the /age command!”

illgot.1056:

too much of WoW.

and what we REALLY needed was another WoW.

We were sold this game would be different. We were sold no gear grind. We were sold a load of crap and told it was steak.

Seriously if any game deserves a refund, this is a stellar case. The game we have is NOT what was being sold.

What I’m hating right now is that the further you get into FOTM, the more cookie-cutter your build [apparently] has to be. The people in my core group have been bugging me nonstop to use full toughness/vitality gear. What happened to building how you want to? Why am I suddenly forced to use what other people perceive to be the best? I don’t have trouble with my squishy gear, I’ve learned to use dodge effectively. So why am I being forced to change how I build and play my character? This is not how I want to play, and this isn’t how I want to play GW2.

Ebon.7641:

What I’m hating right now is that the further you get into FOTM, the more cookie-cutter your build [apparently] has to be. If you aren’t using a lot of toughness/vitality gear, people get pissed off. What happened to building how you want to? Why am I suddenly forced to use what other people perceive to be the best? I don’t have trouble with my squishy gear, I’ve learned to use dodge effectively. So why am I being forced to change how I build and play my character? This is not how I want to play, and this isn’t how I want to play GW2.

Why are 4 other people supposed to accept that you have several thousand less health than everyone else? Did you ever ask yourself that question?

Mackdose.6504:

Ebon.7641:

What I’m hating right now is that the further you get into FOTM, the more cookie-cutter your build [apparently] has to be. If you aren’t using a lot of toughness/vitality gear, people get pissed off. What happened to building how you want to? Why am I suddenly forced to use what other people perceive to be the best? I don’t have trouble with my squishy gear, I’ve learned to use dodge effectively. So why am I being forced to change how I build and play my character? This is not how I want to play, and this isn’t how I want to play GW2.

Why are 4 other people supposed to accept that you have several thousand less health than everyone else? Did you ever ask yourself that question?

Because I don’t get knocked down any more than them, and I probably do 2-3 more damage? Do groups suddenly not need competent DPS that can avoid damage by playing skillfully? Did you ever ask yourself that question?

There were squishy DPS with low health in other MMO’s, why the hell does everyone need some cookie cutter build in GW2? At this point the dynamic is no different. Squishy, more vulnerable, more damage. Still useful. Why force me into another build that a.) I don’t want to play and b.) I don’t feel like I really need? And it’s not like I don’t have any of either, I have about +200 vitality and toughness.

Why can’t some people accept that I’m going to be a little squishier because of the way I’m geared, but despite that I’m going to put out a lot more damage in the long run? I’m not hindering the group in any way (up to fractals level 12 with zero issues), so what’s the big problem?

Ebon.7641:

Mackdose.6504:

Ebon.7641:

What I’m hating right now is that the further you get into FOTM, the more cookie-cutter your build [apparently] has to be. If you aren’t using a lot of toughness/vitality gear, people get pissed off. What happened to building how you want to? Why am I suddenly forced to use what other people perceive to be the best? I don’t have trouble with my squishy gear, I’ve learned to use dodge effectively. So why am I being forced to change how I build and play my character? This is not how I want to play, and this isn’t how I want to play GW2.

Why are 4 other people supposed to accept that you have several thousand less health than everyone else? Did you ever ask yourself that question?

Because I don’t get knocked down any more than them, and I probably do 2-3 more damage? Do groups suddenly not need competent DPS that can avoid damage by playing skillfully? Did you ever ask yourself that question?

There were squishy DPS with low health in other MMO’s, why the hell does everyone need some cookie cutter build in GW2? At this point the dynamic is no different. Squishy, more vulnerable, more damage. Still useful. Why force me into another build that a.) I don’t want to play and b.) I don’t feel like I really need? And it’s not like I don’t have any of either, I have about +200 vitality and toughness.

Why can’t some people accept that I’m a large portion of the groups DPS because of the way I’m geared, and that I’m going to be a little softer than they are? I’m not hindering the group in any way (up to fractals level 12), so what’s the big problem?

Ask them, it’s your group. I can see why people would be mad, considering glass cannon builds = one-shot deaths previously.

Mackdose.6504:

Ebon.7641:

Mackdose.6504:

Ebon.7641:

What I’m hating right now is that the further you get into FOTM, the more cookie-cutter your build [apparently] has to be. If you aren’t using a lot of toughness/vitality gear, people get pissed off. What happened to building how you want to? Why am I suddenly forced to use what other people perceive to be the best? I don’t have trouble with my squishy gear, I’ve learned to use dodge effectively. So why am I being forced to change how I build and play my character? This is not how I want to play, and this isn’t how I want to play GW2.

Why are 4 other people supposed to accept that you have several thousand less health than everyone else? Did you ever ask yourself that question?

Because I don’t get knocked down any more than them, and I probably do 2-3 more damage? Do groups suddenly not need competent DPS that can avoid damage by playing skillfully? Did you ever ask yourself that question?

There were squishy DPS with low health in other MMO’s, why the hell does everyone need some cookie cutter build in GW2? At this point the dynamic is no different. Squishy, more vulnerable, more damage. Still useful. Why force me into another build that a.) I don’t want to play and b.) I don’t feel like I really need? And it’s not like I don’t have any of either, I have about +200 vitality and toughness.

Why can’t some people accept that I’m a large portion of the groups DPS because of the way I’m geared, and that I’m going to be a little softer than they are? I’m not hindering the group in any way (up to fractals level 12), so what’s the big problem?

Ask them, it’s your group. I can see why people would be mad, considering glass cannon builds = one-shot deaths previously.

Well, I don’t get one shot. I don’t get downed that often, and have only been in level 12 because I don’t have an ascended item yet (the rest of them do). I absolutely need the ascended items, no doubt, but I am quite fine without full toughness gear.

There is absolutely no reason for them to get mad. The problem is that they’re hardcore elitists who believe in one way and one way only. If you’re not doing it their way, you’re doing it wrong and you should feel bad. And that is EXACTLY the kind of bullkitten attitude I was trying to avoid with GW2.

Furthermore, I did Arah daily with 6 green MF items in FULL power/prec/crit dmg build. I did not die on Lupicus, ever. Why? Because I’m a skilled player and I don’t need full toughness or vitality builds as a crutch to lean on. It’s amazing what a skilled squishy player can do in this game, and it pisses me off that the general consensus is that this kind of build sucks. It sucks because most players suck, end of story.

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

This is something that existed prior to ascended gear, and was something that we saw happen all the time in GW1, even without any sort of gear progression. Some players, typically people who play the game a lot, tend to only want to play with other players that play like them. They require some sort of proof to get into their party, whether it be displaying your Lightbringer Title, equipping or linking some type of gear, or using some other method of showing that you have already done and are experienced with the content. While ascended gear might be the new excuse, this behavior happens regardless.

While this is not really something that we want to encourage, players do have the choice to play the game in the way they want. We can’t force those players to be all-inclusive in who they invite to the parties they create, and to be honest, doing so would probably make people even more unhappy than they are now, and lead to a lot of undesirable behavior.

The difference between then and now is that before this change, the “requirements” people might have had for their group mates were quite easy to meet. I didn’t even need to run a dungeon previously to meet any sort of requirement.

In Underworld it was Ghastly summoning stones. Good luck getting in a group if you couldn’t show the party leader you had a stack.

In PvP it was hard to get in a group unless you could demonstrate you were above rank 6, at least.

As Andrew mentioned, it doesn’t matter if there is a gear score to display or not. Or if Anet did their best to remove any kitten waving. Players will make up a metric by which to judge each other by to get the type of person they want in their group.

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

This is something that existed prior to ascended gear, and was something that we saw happen all the time in GW1, even without any sort of gear progression. Some players, typically people who play the game a lot, tend to only want to play with other players that play like them. They require some sort of proof to get into their party, whether it be displaying your Lightbringer Title, equipping or linking some type of gear, or using some other method of showing that you have already done and are experienced with the content. While ascended gear might be the new excuse, this behavior happens regardless.

While this is not really something that we want to encourage, players do have the choice to play the game in the way they want. We can’t force those players to be all-inclusive in who they invite to the parties they create, and to be honest, doing so would probably make people even more unhappy than they are now, and lead to a lot of undesirable behavior.

Yes, but deliberately adding a gear check to the game isn’t the same as me deciding not to party with something because I’ve decided they’re not experienced. It has to do with why and how a player is included or excluded from playing with others.

If I do it, it’s one thing. If the developer does it, that’s something else entirely.

Tempest.1254:

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

This is something that existed prior to ascended gear, and was something that we saw happen all the time in GW1, even without any sort of gear progression. Some players, typically people who play the game a lot, tend to only want to play with other players that play like them. They require some sort of proof to get into their party, whether it be displaying your Lightbringer Title, equipping or linking some type of gear, or using some other method of showing that you have already done and are experienced with the content. While ascended gear might be the new excuse, this behavior happens regardless.

While this is not really something that we want to encourage, players do have the choice to play the game in the way they want. We can’t force those players to be all-inclusive in who they invite to the parties they create, and to be honest, doing so would probably make people even more unhappy than they are now, and lead to a lot of undesirable behavior.

Yes, but deliberately adding a gear check to the game isn’t the same as me deciding not to party with something because I’ve decided they’re not experienced. It has to do with why and how a player is included or excluded from playing with others.

If I do it, it’s one thing. If the developer does it, that’s something else entirely.

And if players want the gear check so that they have a reason to keep going as far as they can in a specific game mode? Screw them right?

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

This is something that existed prior to ascended gear, and was something that we saw happen all the time in GW1, even without any sort of gear progression.

Fair enough. But in GW1, this was about players wanting to run certain builds/strategies and needing players experienced enough to pull it off.

Now you just reintroduced that problem – ON PURPOSE. But this time around, additional gear tiers like ascended items and mechanics like agony don’t even have any actual gameplay value. Their only purpose is stretching and gating content…

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

This is something that existed prior to ascended gear, and was something that we saw happen all the time in GW1, even without any sort of gear progression. Some players, typically people who play the game a lot, tend to only want to play with other players that play like them. They require some sort of proof to get into their party, whether it be displaying your Lightbringer Title, equipping or linking some type of gear, or using some other method of showing that you have already done and are experienced with the content. While ascended gear might be the new excuse, this behavior happens regardless.

While this is not really something that we want to encourage, players do have the choice to play the game in the way they want. We can’t force those players to be all-inclusive in who they invite to the parties they create, and to be honest, doing so would probably make people even more unhappy than they are now, and lead to a lot of undesirable behavior.

I don’t think anyone sane denies that such behavior exists in just about any multiplayer game these days.

The issue is that recent additions to the game, Ascended gear, Infusions, and also the way Fractal difficulty is handled, have had, and will continue to have, an amplifying affect on such bad behaviors. True, you cannot force such people to be all inclusive, but that does not mean you should add things to the game that -encourages- them to be discriminatory either.

Tempest.1254:

Yes, but deliberately adding a gear check to the game isn’t the same as me deciding not to party with something because I’ve decided they’re not experienced.

So instead of players being kitten waving elitists, which was bad for the community as a whole, you’re lampooning them for coming up with a legitimate end-all system?

The beauty of the ascended crafting system (which btw only applies to fractals) is that you can’t judge a player to be unworthy of your group for certain tiers of the dungeon if they’ve already met the requirement for it. It takes the power of being a jerk out of the hands of players that would abuse it, and gives it to the creators where they can be selflessly martyred by their own player base. They are not the hero we deserve, but they are the one we need.

Erulogos.2591:

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

This is something that existed prior to ascended gear, and was something that we saw happen all the time in GW1, even without any sort of gear progression. Some players, typically people who play the game a lot, tend to only want to play with other players that play like them. They require some sort of proof to get into their party, whether it be displaying your Lightbringer Title, equipping or linking some type of gear, or using some other method of showing that you have already done and are experienced with the content. While ascended gear might be the new excuse, this behavior happens regardless.

While this is not really something that we want to encourage, players do have the choice to play the game in the way they want. We can’t force those players to be all-inclusive in who they invite to the parties they create, and to be honest, doing so would probably make people even more unhappy than they are now, and lead to a lot of undesirable behavior.

I don’t think anyone sane denies that such behavior exists in just about any multiplayer game these days.

The issue is that recent additions to the game, Ascended gear, Infusions, and also the way Fractal difficulty is handled, have had, and will continue to have, an amplifying affect on such bad behaviors. True, you cannot force such people to be all inclusive, but that does not mean you should add things to the game that -encourages- them to be discriminatory either.

We’ll see how you feel when you hit FotM 20 and need people to be geared to continue to 21. I’m not sure why one game mode suddenly destroys the whole game.

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

This is something that existed prior to ascended gear, and was something that we saw happen all the time in GW1, even without any sort of gear progression. Some players, typically people who play the game a lot, tend to only want to play with other players that play like them. They require some sort of proof to get into their party, whether it be displaying your Lightbringer Title, equipping or linking some type of gear, or using some other method of showing that you have already done and are experienced with the content. While ascended gear might be the new excuse, this behavior happens regardless.

While this is not really something that we want to encourage, players do have the choice to play the game in the way they want. We can’t force those players to be all-inclusive in who they invite to the parties they create, and to be honest, doing so would probably make people even more unhappy than they are now, and lead to a lot of undesirable behavior.

Well, the situations became worse because your plans and the new patch led to the results. I’m sorry, but what you did DO encourage more players to discriminate against those who are not “qualified”.

I am still waiting to hear the OFFICIAL response as to why this game was sold as not having a gear grind, then 3 months later adding a gear grind. They can make official posts about this and that but when it comes time to man up to being lied to, they don’t have the cajones.

actualy had someone in my guild tell me he wanted to form an elite squad problem is in this game is that the dif lvl between a nob and elite is a short. this game realy is not hard compaired to others and simple mistakes wipe raids and groups. in this game the biggest issue is knowing when to do a dodge roll, or stay out of a big circle you can see on the ground before it gets there mmm dodge roll again sorry. after that its gear. i personaly will never quest in a group that want to form any elite groups specialy in a game where its a joke to think there is a diferance

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

This is something that existed prior to ascended gear, and was something that we saw happen all the time in GW1, even without any sort of gear progression. Some players, typically people who play the game a lot, tend to only want to play with other players that play like them. They require some sort of proof to get into their party, whether it be displaying your Lightbringer Title, equipping or linking some type of gear, or using some other method of showing that you have already done and are experienced with the content. While ascended gear might be the new excuse, this behavior happens regardless.

While this is not really something that we want to encourage, players do have the choice to play the game in the way they want. We can’t force those players to be all-inclusive in who they invite to the parties they create, and to be honest, doing so would probably make people even more unhappy than they are now, and lead to a lot of undesirable behavior.

And you don’t think its best to give LESS reasons for this to happen rather than more? Requirements that existed in GW1 lived on a level of almost been arbitrary. Its like those people who speedrun UW and have you show those summoning stones for proof. They knew it was arbitrary as much as the next guy. Ascended gear is different because it WON’T be an arbitrary reason anymore. And you guys let that happen.

GOSU.9574:

I am still waiting to hear the OFFICIAL response as to why this game was sold as not having a gear grind, then 3 months later adding a gear grind. They can make official posts about this and that but when it comes time to man up to being lied to, they don’t have the cajones.

They didn’t add a new gear grind at all. If you didn’t think getting exotics, rares, or masterworks was a grind, then getting ascended isn’t a grind either. Legendaries are the closest thing to a grind, and those existed at launch.

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

This is something that existed prior to ascended gear, and was something that we saw happen all the time in GW1, even without any sort of gear progression. Some players, typically people who play the game a lot, tend to only want to play with other players that play like them. They require some sort of proof to get into their party, whether it be displaying your Lightbringer Title, equipping or linking some type of gear, or using some other method of showing that you have already done and are experienced with the content. While ascended gear might be the new excuse, this behavior happens regardless.

While this is not really something that we want to encourage, players do have the choice to play the game in the way they want. We can’t force those players to be all-inclusive in who they invite to the parties they create, and to be honest, doing so would probably make people even more unhappy than they are now, and lead to a lot of undesirable behavior.

Um, you do realize you are encouraging it? How intellectually dishonest.

Mackdose.6504:

Tempest.1254:

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

This is something that existed prior to ascended gear, and was something that we saw happen all the time in GW1, even without any sort of gear progression. Some players, typically people who play the game a lot, tend to only want to play with other players that play like them. They require some sort of proof to get into their party, whether it be displaying your Lightbringer Title, equipping or linking some type of gear, or using some other method of showing that you have already done and are experienced with the content. While ascended gear might be the new excuse, this behavior happens regardless.

While this is not really something that we want to encourage, players do have the choice to play the game in the way they want. We can’t force those players to be all-inclusive in who they invite to the parties they create, and to be honest, doing so would probably make people even more unhappy than they are now, and lead to a lot of undesirable behavior.

Yes, but deliberately adding a gear check to the game isn’t the same as me deciding not to party with something because I’ve decided they’re not experienced. It has to do with why and how a player is included or excluded from playing with others.

If I do it, it’s one thing. If the developer does it, that’s something else entirely.

And if players want the gear check so that they have a reason to keep going as far as they can in a specific game mode? Screw them right?

I would call it “returning the favor to the locusts”.

GOSU.9574:

I am still waiting to hear the OFFICIAL response as to why this game was sold as not having a gear grind, then 3 months later adding a gear grind. They can make official posts about this and that but when it comes time to man up to being lied to, they don’t have the cajones.

Where’s the gear grind? You mean playing the game? That’s grinding now? Sheesh.

You complain about gear you don’t want (or need) because playing the content the gear is needed for is a grind. You don’t need the gear because you’re not grinding (playing) it, but you’re upset it’s there because other people do want to play the content that requires it?

What’s your point again?

Mackdose.6504:

We’ll see how you feel when you hit FotM 20 and need people to be geared to continue to 21. I’m not sure why one game mode suddenly destroys the whole game.

I may never get that far. I expect by then Agony resist would be something of a must, and the grind to get the Ascended backs makes getting a full set of raid gear in WoW seem like a blink of the eye. Back when I played said game, you could acquire (via whatever token the current expansion was using) roughly 1 piece of gear per week using their random dungeon system, plus whatever the RNG gave you while raiding. Unless the Ascended rings have a much higher drop rate than exotics, and even possibly rares, once you get to Fractal 10+, Ascended gear is a heavy grind proposition.

Well, if open world dueling was in the game, party leaders could test applicants for their skill. It’s another form of check that doesn’t really tell you the guys gear, but at least you’d know you’re not taking a total dunce inside the dungeon if he’s any good.

Food for thought.

Archmagel.1350:

Mackdose.6504:

Tempest.1254:

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

This is something that existed prior to ascended gear, and was something that we saw happen all the time in GW1, even without any sort of gear progression. Some players, typically people who play the game a lot, tend to only want to play with other players that play like them. They require some sort of proof to get into their party, whether it be displaying your Lightbringer Title, equipping or linking some type of gear, or using some other method of showing that you have already done and are experienced with the content. While ascended gear might be the new excuse, this behavior happens regardless.

While this is not really something that we want to encourage, players do have the choice to play the game in the way they want. We can’t force those players to be all-inclusive in who they invite to the parties they create, and to be honest, doing so would probably make people even more unhappy than they are now, and lead to a lot of undesirable behavior.

Yes, but deliberately adding a gear check to the game isn’t the same as me deciding not to party with something because I’ve decided they’re not experienced. It has to do with why and how a player is included or excluded from playing with others.

If I do it, it’s one thing. If the developer does it, that’s something else entirely.

And if players want the gear check so that they have a reason to keep going as far as they can in a specific game mode? Screw them right?

I would call it “returning the favor to the locusts”.

I’m a casual player, I don’t even have an 80, but I welcome any addition of content and long-term goals. Ascended Items are meant to be long term goals for the people who like getting rewarded for difficult content. I like difficult content, and this will be something I pursue when I hit cap.

I’m not a locust, and not everyone who enjoys vertical progression is either.

ASB.4295:

Discrimination happened to the same degree GW1, but it was in slightly different areas, namely faction rank(for certain faction specific skills) and build/runes/insignia. It wasn’t a problem to get the right gear and upgrades, but you still had to title grind to be considered viable for “those” pugs.

“T-Way LF LB8 UA” or “LF 1hp BiP R9/10”

Truth! But I’m of the opinion that PvE skills tied into faction rank should have never been introduced either. This is the one area in GW1 where grind => power. As far as specific builds (exempting the PvE skills) or specific gear, these were quite easy to obtain.

I would have very much like to have seen grind => power avoided in GW2.

Mackdose.6504:

Where’s the gear grind? You mean playing the game? That’s grinding now? Sheesh.

You complain about gear you don’t want (or need) because playing the content the gear is needed for is a grind. You don’t need the gear because you’re not grinding (playing) it, but you’re upset it’s there because other people do want to play the content that requires it?

What’s your point again?

The difference between play and grind is in quantity. Having to run a dungeon a few times to get what you’re after is playing. Having to run said dungeon a few -dozen- times becomes more than a little grindy, at least as a lot of people see it.

Erulogos.2591:

Mackdose.6504:

Where’s the gear grind? You mean playing the game? That’s grinding now? Sheesh.

You complain about gear you don’t want (or need) because playing the content the gear is needed for is a grind. You don’t need the gear because you’re not grinding (playing) it, but you’re upset it’s there because other people do want to play the content that requires it?

What’s your point again?

The difference between play and grind is in quantity. Having to run a dungeon a few times to get what you’re after is playing. Having to run said dungeon a few -dozen- times becomes more than a little grindy, at least as a lot of people see it.

When you repeat a dungeon for the umpteenth time because it has an item you require, you are not doing that dungeon for fun, you are grinding it for gain. THAT IS GEAR GRIND.

I think having rares is more than enough to do fractals so long as you are not a brain dead monkey. Exotics just leave more room for mistakes. But gear is only half the battle, hell, gear/rares aren’t even a battle. learning your classes strengths and weaknesses is the battle, also coordination.

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

This is something that existed prior to ascended gear, and was something that we saw happen all the time in GW1, even without any sort of gear progression. Some players, typically people who play the game a lot, tend to only want to play with other players that play like them. They require some sort of proof to get into their party, whether it be displaying your Lightbringer Title, equipping or linking some type of gear, or using some other method of showing that you have already done and are experienced with the content. While ascended gear might be the new excuse, this behavior happens regardless.

While this is not really something that we want to encourage, players do have the choice to play the game in the way they want. We can’t force those players to be all-inclusive in who they invite to the parties they create, and to be honest, doing so would probably make people even more unhappy than they are now, and lead to a lot of undesirable behavior.

And since you weren’t happy with this kind of behaviour, you thought well to add another gating system, namely the FotM level.

No one, at least on my server (Far Shiverpeaks), is looking for people to run previous dungeons. No one is writing a single line in the map chat except for that “LFM/LFM fotm lvl X”, while just a couple weeks ago it was an alive chat where people talked with each other, giving infos, etc.

The most friendly LFM that I read this evening was a “LFG fotm lvl 7, will do lvl 6”.

Now, Mr McLeod, please, stop bullkitten us. You’re acting (not you personally, all you Anet reps here on the forums) like a child who ate the biscuits that he shouldn’t have eaten, got caught in the process, and tried to find all kind of excuses to justify himself.

You’re all already the target of (much deserved) disappointment, with these kind of posts you’re just trying to disappoint the majority of us customers more and more.

Instead of writing these kind of posts, just try your best to let Nexon understand that GW2 isn’t catered to the korean grinding mentality market. That wasn’t your view. That wasn’t OUR view.

And I say Nexon because I can’t honestly believe that Mr O’Brien would pull such a bait & switch/false advertising campaign after all those years of GW1 and of developing GW2. There must be something else, and that else must be Nexon with their narrow, narrow mentality.

The PvE part of the game now it’s just a fotm grinding. The sPvP/tPvP after this last patch it’s thinning every hour, you’ll know that for sure from the number of tournaments starting on average every minute (and that should not be a surprise, given the fact that regarding PvP this patch was a joke). I didn’t check WvW, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it got a downward hit too.

Stop this, asap. Unless you want to see this game die in 6 months.

Real honest question:
How long (in gameplay hours) should it take to start a level 1 character and take it to max level with BiS items? Basically, I’m talking about reaching the maximum mechanical power of the character. Player skill, on the other hand, is an entirely separate matter.

kKagari.6804:

Erulogos.2591:

Mackdose.6504:

Where’s the gear grind? You mean playing the game? That’s grinding now? Sheesh.

You complain about gear you don’t want (or need) because playing the content the gear is needed for is a grind. You don’t need the gear because you’re not grinding (playing) it, but you’re upset it’s there because other people do want to play the content that requires it?

What’s your point again?

The difference between play and grind is in quantity. Having to run a dungeon a few times to get what you’re after is playing. Having to run said dungeon a few -dozen- times becomes more than a little grindy, at least as a lot of people see it.

When you repeat a dungeon for the umpteenth time because it has an item you require, you are not doing that dungeon for fun, you are grinding it for gain. THAT IS GEAR GRIND.

Except it doesn’t have an item you require, it has an item you want. It has an item made specifically for going deeper and deeper into the dungeon you acquire it from. If you want an item made for an infinitely scaling dungeon that you don’t actually want to participate in, then that’s a problem with your own specific priorities. Not a problem with the game.

Erulogos.2591:

Mackdose.6504:

Where’s the gear grind? You mean playing the game? That’s grinding now? Sheesh.

You complain about gear you don’t want (or need) because playing the content the gear is needed for is a grind. You don’t need the gear because you’re not grinding (playing) it, but you’re upset it’s there because other people do want to play the content that requires it?

What’s your point again?

The difference between play and grind is in quantity. Having to run a dungeon a few times to get what you’re after is playing. Having to run said dungeon a few -dozen- times becomes more than a little grindy, at least as a lot of people see it.

I’d say that the difference is negligible. Some folks have no issue playing the same thing over and over and having lots of fun. Some folks figure that any more than three runs is tedious, grindy, and not worth the trouble.

Villainizing people who like to play the same content for progression whether they are elitist or not over something you don’t find fun because you want the same items with none of the work is unfair.

Don’t like the gear grind? Don’t grind for gear. It’s not like it’s a race to BiS before the next content patch, there’s no prize at the end but the feeling of “I accomplished that.”

GOSU.9574:

I am still waiting to hear the OFFICIAL response as to why this game was sold as not having a gear grind, then 3 months later adding a gear grind. They can make official posts about this and that but when it comes time to man up to being lied to, they don’t have the cajones.

actually they did make an official response:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/A-message-from-our-Studio-Design-Director-Chris-Whiteside/first#post721451

seems like they have blinders on though, and don’t even understand what they’ve actually done.

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

This is something that existed prior to ascended gear, and was something that we saw happen all the time in GW1, even without any sort of gear progression. Some players, typically people who play the game a lot, tend to only want to play with other players that play like them. They require some sort of proof to get into their party, whether it be displaying your Lightbringer Title, equipping or linking some type of gear, or using some other method of showing that you have already done and are experienced with the content. While ascended gear might be the new excuse, this behavior happens regardless.

While this is not really something that we want to encourage, players do have the choice to play the game in the way they want. We can’t force those players to be all-inclusive in who they invite to the parties they create, and to be honest, doing so would probably make people even more unhappy than they are now, and lead to a lot of undesirable behavior.

Yep. Exactly what I think.

You cant force HC, elitist players to not be elititst and play with casuals. Even if you dont have ascended gear, they ask for 3000+ achievements points etc.

I am hc/elitist player with 1000 hours played and I dont care about ascended gear or vertical progression. When I run dungeons I care about skill and how good players are with their characters. I want to run with players who knows what to do, with players which have same experience me like me. Yes I choose whoever I invite, yes I kick those who slack, go afk at bosses or run dungeons in MF gear etc. I am always tryeing to perform my best in dungeons and I expect the same from the rest of the players I run with.

I dont get players complaining about beeing excluded from something, either because they dont have time to play as much so they cant keep up, etc. You have a lot of casual non-HC/Elitist players out there.. A LOT .. So group up together.

The FoTM, ascended gear didnt change anything. I expected players to know lupicus when I was creating my group for it, etc.
All what ascended gear brings is pve progression and also bigger challange. No one is forcing you to do FoTM difficulty 10+. Those are for HC PvE players and thats where you need Ascended gear. Nowhere else.

And I am telling you, I will never require some Ascended gear for Arah, AC etc. dont see any point in that. I just require Infusion for FoTM 11+
If there is someone who requires it for AC, Arah, etc .. thats just a douchbag and ignore him.

P.S. I recieved my firsnt Ascended ring today. And I tell you what, I didnt even care. I run FoTM for drops, fun and maybe one day fractal weapon but my main goal is now legendary. Not some stats.

Mackdose.6504:

And if players want the gear check so that they have a reason to keep going as far as they can in a specific game mode? Screw them right?

Well essentially yeah, because…I don’t know…every other theme park MMO in existence has catered exclusively to those players for a decade.

Furthermore, including some resistance mechanic to progress isn’t fun or unique, it’s lazy. Why not have the dungeon become more challenging through the introduction of new types of mobs, or expanding the combat mechanics of existing mobs, or implementing more difficult puzzles, etc.? There are so many ways to make fun, challenging dungeon content, but an increasing DoT mechanic that requires you to stack resistance gear is not one of them.

Progressing further into the dungeon could award unique skins, minis, titles, achievements, greater quantities of rare crafting materials to use in creating other unique skins, and so forth. Those things are trivial, but an arbitrary content gate gives you a reason to keep going? What?

Merthax.5172:

Real honest question:
How long (in gameplay hours) should it take to start a level 1 character and take it to max level with BiS items? Basically, I’m talking about reaching the maximum mechanical power of the character. Player skill, on the other hand, is an entirely separate matter.

That is an important question. One I cannot objectively answer. You could also ask: “Should PvE gear progression ever plateau or keep on going?”

I’m just going to say that I was fairly okay with how long it took you in Guild Wars Factions to get a level 20 with max gear, if you knew what you were doing. I don’t derive any joy from gearing up and will try to get this “obstacle” out of the way before I start working towards things I can really enjoy. If that is not possible because there is a month or year long progression curve, I cannot not enjoy the game.

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

This is something that existed prior to ascended gear, and was something that we saw happen all the time in GW1, even without any sort of gear progression. Some players, typically people who play the game a lot, tend to only want to play with other players that play like them. They require some sort of proof to get into their party, whether it be displaying your Lightbringer Title, equipping or linking some type of gear, or using some other method of showing that you have already done and are experienced with the content. While ascended gear might be the new excuse, this behavior happens regardless.

While this is not really something that we want to encourage, players do have the choice to play the game in the way they want. We can’t force those players to be all-inclusive in who they invite to the parties they create, and to be honest, doing so would probably make people even more unhappy than they are now, and lead to a lot of undesirable behavior.

Why would a player who doesn’t know me ask me to display the possession of a piece of gear that did not influence the stats of my character what would that prove?

Players in a tier gear progression game want to see other players gear stats to know that they will not be disadvantage by an under equipped player.

Andrew let me ask this, as I understand it, it was a design decision for GW2 to remove barriers that get in the way of players freely playing with anyone (like the removal of the trinity)

The trend we are seeing, Self-imposed by the community or not, is more and more reports of players refusing to play with players that are on lower level scale for FotM, I only see this trend growing when Infusions become more prevalent.

Do you feel GW2 with the addition of another tier of armor, special mitigation mechanic and scaling dungeon levels has remained true to that theme or has added barriers for players to freely group up play with anyone?

Have these systems made players more or less selective about who they group with?

Stormleaf.1769:

kKagari.6804:

Erulogos.2591:

Mackdose.6504:

Where’s the gear grind? You mean playing the game? That’s grinding now? Sheesh.

You complain about gear you don’t want (or need) because playing the content the gear is needed for is a grind. You don’t need the gear because you’re not grinding (playing) it, but you’re upset it’s there because other people do want to play the content that requires it?

What’s your point again?

The difference between play and grind is in quantity. Having to run a dungeon a few times to get what you’re after is playing. Having to run said dungeon a few -dozen- times becomes more than a little grindy, at least as a lot of people see it.

When you repeat a dungeon for the umpteenth time because it has an item you require, you are not doing that dungeon for fun, you are grinding it for gain. THAT IS GEAR GRIND.

Except it doesn’t have an item you require, it has an item you want. It has an item made specifically for going deeper and deeper into the dungeon you acquire it from. If you want an item made for an infinitely scaling dungeon that you don’t actually want to participate in, then that’s a problem with your own specific priorities. Not a problem with the game.

Lol, that’s completely wrong. The items have about 15% better stats that will apply to every other aspect of the game save sPvP.

moog.2874:

Mackdose.6504:

And if players want the gear check so that they have a reason to keep going as far as they can in a specific game mode? Screw them right?

Well essentially yeah, because…I don’t know…every other theme park MMO in existence has catered exclusively to those players for a decade.

Furthermore, including some resistance mechanic to progress isn’t fun or unique, it’s lazy. Why not have the dungeon become more challenging through the introduction of new types of mobs, or expanding the combat mechanics of existing mobs, or implementing more difficult puzzles, etc.? There are so many ways to make fun, challenging dungeon content, but an increasing DoT mechanic that requires you to stack resistance gear is not one of them.

Progressing further into the dungeon could award unique skins, minis, titles, achievements, greater quantities of rare crafting materials to use in creating other unique skins, and so forth. Those things are trivial, but an arbitrary content gate gives you a reason to keep going? What?

I like the combat in this game better than Premier Themepark MMO™, and I like scaling difficulty requiring trophy gear to progress. It’s not like the whole game is focused on the vertical progression of an elite few, no matter how hard you pretend that’s how it is.

I thought the exotic race was a little short, and I’m glad there’s more to the endgame now. If it keeps scaling up every few months to a new tier, I’ll start complaining about a skinner-box treadmill, but I have faith in Anet.