Guild Wars 2

Consider this a formal apology to a number of players I have encountered in Silverwastes at the Copper champion.

I, like many others, bought into the “No AoE” explanation of the fight. I hovered over the tooltip on the adds, saw that it says “Heals on Death” and presumed that using area of effect abilities was a death knell for breach success.

Then I started actually paying attention.

Each offshoot that dies gives Copper a relatively inconsequential regeneration boon. Additional dead offshoots stack duration, not intensity. How exactly would Copper jump from 10% to 30% in a heartbeat, then? It certainly wasn’t from dying offshoots.

It’s all about the bubbles. When bubbles reach Copper, they pop, and when bubbles pop, Copper’s health bar moves in the exact wrong direction. It turns out that bubbles can be kited, popped, and killed away from Copper and not move his health bar one red centimeter.

So I changed my play. I started urging folks to AoE to their heart’s content, as long as they were focusing on bubbles before they reached Copper. I started urging folks to abandon their lazy wall perch (the one I called home) so they could hunt down those deadly bubbles.

I’ve had people yell at me for using ice bow. I’ve had people call me a troll and accuse me of trying to ruin things. I’ve had folks tell the map that I was evil. They were exactly as I was just days ago.

I also haven’t failed a Copper since I began using AoE, focusing bubbles, and urging others to do the same.

I’m sorry for not learning more before I chastised other players. I’m sorry for jumping to conclusions. Now let’s complete some more breaches together, ice bows in hand.

I’ve tried telling this to people before, but actually getting them to take the advice is a different story.

Just like those players who jumped the bandwagon for Platinum and constantly shout “no CC at blue” without reading the boss’ buff icon that it has Defiance and cannot CC’d to begin with. Though that is one boss you shouldn’t use AoE to prevent popping the poison bubbles, which heals the boss.

All it takes is some cleaving melee to handle the bubbles in the “arena” and it’s golden.

It’s been a challenge trying to explain this in game. Despite the fact that I just did a breach while ice bowing Copper and doing tons of AoE, someone maintained we only killed him with 2 minutes to spare because of someone kiting the adds. A complete lack of connection to reality.

The “no AOE”-sillyness going on at copper made me happily tag copper and then run to indigo on my elementalist for my mordrem parts. If I’m going to get abused for playing right, then I might as well save myself the trouble and leech off of their often doomed attempts.

After every copper fail people blamed it on the aoe, but when I asked if that aoe popped the large (which would heal anyway if not popped fast enough) or the small bubbles (which should be kited away before popping) map chat went silent every time. Clearly those shouting the loudest had no clue about how the encounter works.

At least OP came to realize it and even publicly apologized, you have my respect for that.

If i command copper tonight i will “enlighten” a few people then. Thanks for this topic.

Ditto.

/signed Silverwastes commander on a mission to enlighten

This is news to me. Let’s get the word out to everyone, and make Copper a nicer place to be.

I’m glad to see the word is being spread about how actually to do things right at Copper. Linsey Murdock was in the Silverwastes a few days ago, and when people were talking about Copper, that’s when she told us all – which she got direct from the designer of the encounter – that AOE isn’t the problem, kiting the bubbles (and the adds) is. I’ve been trying to spread the word ever since, and I think people are already starting to get the idea.

Now listen here you little kitten, you quit screwing with material prices or—o wait. Nevermind! Good on you, OP.

Thank you!

Can we have this post broadcasted everywhere?

I made quite a few bets (that melee stack meta would work) but never really had the standing in the community to get a group to try it out.

Yesterday I encouraged people to put out AoE as much as possible while actively CC bubbles and kite Copper away from bubbles/kill bubbles before they can reach Copper. Not even 3 minutes later, Copper was the first boss in the map to die.
This “No AoE at Copper” nonsense needs to go.

So ideally we want boon strips for the regen then?
AoE would still be a problem if no one kites the adds around though.

That’s a good tip, that boss was always the biggest pain to deal with... This explains why.

AoE isn’t a problem, The regen from offshoot is neglectable, it’s the bubble that should be killed/ keep away from Copper.
Also more people get off the ledge is a great help because sometimes Copper resets if there is no one nearby to hold aggro. (Stand on the ledge and spam 1 does not hold his aggro)

Lesson learned: don’t be a lemming.

Necros should have Spectral Wall equipped for that fight. AI is dumb enough to not walk around, so it’s a very effective delay tactic. Likewise, staff eles should swap into Earth every so often for Unsteady Ground and staff Guardians (actually useful here!) should drop Line of Warding.

No No No. Do not tell people its ok to AoE at copper. If you tell people its ok to AoE, people are going to AoE at copper. While I am happy to hear there is a better way to do it, and I will certainly change what I do going forward. To tell people its ok to AoE as long as its on bubbles is not the right answer. AoE is not a finely tuned, tight area of burst focus damage. Its a WIDE UNFORGIVING LONG LASTING AREA OF EFFECT. What is in it can change in an instant. If we need to kill those bubbles, then tell folks to go in there and kill them away from the boss, don’t say AoE them. Players are going to see others using AoE and think its ok to do, just spam away on as much red as possible. You cant tell them its only bubbles away from boss. Some players don’t even have map chat on to read any explanation you give them. They are going to work off what they see. And as for the regen, you are right it is negligible and doesn’t heal him much. But what you get is a health bar that doesn’t move or it just creeps in one direction or the other.

That’s why Copper used to be the first to go down in the beginning…and usually in under a minutes time too. We can bring Copper back to it’s old death before the first minute is gone prominence like in the beginning!

Evil Octopi.8253:

No No No. Do not tell people its ok to AoE at copper. If you tell people its ok to AoE, people are going to AoE at copper. While I am happy to hear there is a better way to do it, and I will certainly change what I do going forward. To tell people its ok to AoE as long as its on bubbles is not the right answer. AoE is not a finely tuned, tight area of burst focus damage. Its a WIDE UNFORGIVING LONG LASTING AREA OF EFFECT. What is in it can change in an instant. If we need to kill those bubbles, then tell folks to go in there and kill them away from the boss, don’t say AoE them. Players are going to see others using AoE and think its ok to do, just spam away on as much red as possible. You cant tell them its only bubbles away from boss. Some players don’t even have map chat on to read any explanation you give them. They are going to work off what they see. And as for the regen, you are right it is negligible and doesn’t heal him much. But what you get is a health bar that doesn’t move or it just creeps in one direction or the other.

If people are actually allowed to do damage (and not just use low damage single target skills, which is all many classes have if not allowed to aoe), the regen will be negligible in comparison, there will be no creeping. Especially if people use boon removal and poison. For bubbles, as long as some people (not all) focus on pushing and destroying them away from boss the few that do heal him will also be inconsequential compared to the damage delivered.

This is what happened when silverwastes was out for a week or so and some people knew how to do it, but the no-aoe mantra had not developed yet. What you propose is (random numbers to clarify the concept) is to reduce damage fourfold by restricting the skills player can use, only so he heals half as much, which still makes it more likely to fail the event than allowing people to damage.

As described by other people above, you only need a few people kiting/cc’ing well to get this to work, so it doesn’t matter if a portion of the players is happily ignoring map chat.

JLHiggs.6258:

I’ve had people yell at me for using ice bow. I’ve had people call me a troll and accuse me of trying to ruin things. I’ve had folks tell the map that I was evil.

This is why I like dungeons. Only my friends are there, no kittens screaming about this or that or overreacting to bullkitten.

We need less focus on openworld kitten-fests and more small group instanced content.

The Thrasher fight at Vinewrath is suffering somewhat the same effect.

People are screaming at dead players for not having stacked in the anti-daze area. HOWEVER, those players are often dead from pustules long before that even appears.

Evil Octopi.8253:

No No No. Do not tell people its ok to AoE at copper. If you tell people its ok to AoE, people are going to AoE at copper. While I am happy to hear there is a better way to do it, and I will certainly change what I do going forward. To tell people its ok to AoE as long as its on bubbles is not the right answer. AoE is not a finely tuned, tight area of burst focus damage. Its a WIDE UNFORGIVING LONG LASTING AREA OF EFFECT. What is in it can change in an instant. If we need to kill those bubbles, then tell folks to go in there and kill them away from the boss, don’t say AoE them. Players are going to see others using AoE and think its ok to do, just spam away on as much red as possible. You cant tell them its only bubbles away from boss. Some players don’t even have map chat on to read any explanation you give them. They are going to work off what they see. And as for the regen, you are right it is negligible and doesn’t heal him much. But what you get is a health bar that doesn’t move or it just creeps in one direction or the other.

If you read my post, you’ll notice that it points out that bubbles break regardless of whether they take damage or not once they reach the boss. That means that you can AoE away when a bubble is under the boss, because that baby’s breaking anyway.

The one stack of regen (since regen doesn’t stack intensity) will do nothing noticeable. When I say it’s negligible, I mean his health bar will continue to burn down regardless and he will die.

Long story short, AoE at Copper is fine.

JLHiggs.6258:

Long story short, AoE at Copper is fine.

I have reservations about this. The consequences of Zerg mentality can be quite bad. Telling them they have free reign (not that they didn’t before) to AoE at Copper may prove ugly.

The very best Copper I was at had great DPS and condition dmg, all single target, and we were the first to finish a Breach Boss. Got even better when the map finished Breach with 3:04min left on the timer. People have gotten much better at this, from my POV anyway. Telling them to suddenly start using AoE, with or without explanation about the bubbles, could have consequences.

There are 4 things that I’ve noticed that cause or contribute to the most failures at Copper…
1) Copper resets because nobody is holding agro.
2) Too many players laying dead and not porting away. Often staying to give commentary or demand a hard revive.
3) Too much bickering in chat about AoE at Copper. (The constant bickering has caused me to turn map and say chats off a couple times.)
4) Lastly — People using AoE without thought. Popping every last bubble around the Husk.

Personally I would rather stick with “No AoE” or “Single target only” than make a complete U-turn and possibly create more madness at this event. But you all will do what you wish to do. Just stating my concerns on the matter.

“The person is smart.
People are stupid..”

Raap.9065:

That’s a good tip, that boss was always the biggest pain to deal with… This explains why.

Always? O_o
When did you start playing?

People also blame that heal on death for how he sometimes regenerates to full HP, when in fact that is happening because everyone is attacking him with range from the little lip that he can’t get above near the room entrance. And if neither him, nor any of his minions can reach any player to attack, he’ll reset like any other mob in the game.

I’d rather just not aoe and not stir up drama in some form. Most of the classes I play deal the most damage when using single target skills anyway

Conncept.7638:

People also blame that heal on death for how he sometimes regenerates to full HP, when in fact that is happening because everyone is attacking him with range from the little lip that he can’t get above near the room entrance. And if neither him, nor any of his minions can reach any player to attack, he’ll reset like any other mob in the game.

Actually it is possible for the Husk to get up there, at least. On the rare chance that he does go up there, have you seen what happens? Most of the snipers just stand there and get wrecked. Its a massive wipe.
(It disgusts me when I see it happen.)

But yes, you’re right, there are some people that can’t tell what a reset is and why its happening.

Azhure.1857:

4) Lastly — People using AoE without thought. Popping every last bubble around the Husk.

Again, I think you misunderstand the mechanic. Bubbles pop when they enter Copper’kittenbox even if they are at full health. If they’re close enough to heal Husk when they die, they were going to heal Husk in a moment regardless.

Please stop with the “you misunderstand the mechanic” bit.
I’m aware of the mechanic, thanks. But you still felt the need to disregard everything I said just to pounce on that one line.

Azhure.1857:

Please stop with the “you misunderstand the mechanic” bit.
I’m aware of the mechanic, thanks. But you still felt the need to disregard everything I said just to pounce on that one line.

I actually agree with everything else, regarding getting into the pit and rez’s. I even made the pit point in my original post. I focused on that line because you made your major point of contention the issue of whether or not you can AoE.

I am still saying there’s literally no logical reason to tell players not to AoE if their AoE abilities are their best damage output.

I started telling people to AOE at Copper until 20% health. At that point, switch to single target. Went down with 2 minutes left on the clock.

I never saw copper fail in the early days before people “knew better”

How far from the boss do the bubbles have to be in order to be popped with no effect on his health?

Galespark.7835:

The “no AOE”-sillyness going on at copper made me happily tag copper and then run to indigo on my elementalist for my mordrem parts. If I’m going to get abused for playing right, then I might as well save myself the trouble and leech off of their often doomed attempts.

Anet stealth-changed the tagging mechanism for underground bosses last patch. You can’t just tag one and run to another and expect to get parts both.
Which is a pity, because (as it was expected) drop chances for new parts are lower than in earlier LS chapters, due to more parts in the pool.

Evil Octopi.8253:

No No No. Do not tell people its ok to AoE at copper. If you tell people its ok to AoE, people are going to AoE at copper. While I am happy to hear there is a better way to do it, and I will certainly change what I do going forward. To tell people its ok to AoE as long as its on bubbles is not the right answer. AoE is not a finely tuned, tight area of burst focus damage.

If the bubble is near Copper, then it’s going to heal him anyways.

Maybe you should learn how the boss works before you tell people what to do.

The most important thing to tell people isn’t “NO AOE” but actually tell them to keep Poison on him the whole time.

Sandpit.3467:

I never saw copper fail in the early days before people “knew better”

Exactly this. Before everyone was yelling “NO AOE!!!! ELEMENTALISTS SPAM EARTH 1!!!”, Copper would always die and it was Gold and Silver that failed constantly. After players “got better” at the Silverwastes, it was Copper that kept failing.

We have all the “NO AOE”-know-it-alls to thank for that.

The funny/sad thing is that this was pretty clear before Wintersday, but it’s still a struggle to get it to filter through to people.

Windsagio.1340:

The funny/sad thing is that this was pretty clear before Wintersday, but it’s still a struggle to get it to filter through to people.

People are starting to catch on now though, and Copper is going down a lot faster/easier than single-target DPS. It takes a bit of persistence, but it’s possible to get people to change strategies.

The strategy isn’t “It’s fine to AOE at copper”, It’s “AOE copper, and focus down poison before it gets near him”. With 2-3 people focusing down bubbles while the rest AOE copper, he goes down fast.

OP, know you’re not the only one. It’s very cool of you to come and post what you did. A few weeks back, a friend and I were discussing this very thing while watching an Ele camping in water and auto ATKing with Staff #1.

I stopped even going to this event with my Ele because I generally don’t like to argue with the people in map chat. A lot of players who don’t understand BASIC mechanics let alone the specific encounters populate this game. Nice to know this is filtering down though.

Nokaru.7831:

Evil Octopi.8253:

No No No. Do not tell people its ok to AoE at copper. If you tell people its ok to AoE, people are going to AoE at copper. While I am happy to hear there is a better way to do it, and I will certainly change what I do going forward. To tell people its ok to AoE as long as its on bubbles is not the right answer. AoE is not a finely tuned, tight area of burst focus damage.

If the bubble is near Copper, then it’s going to heal him anyways.

Maybe you should learn how the boss works before you tell people what to do.

I do know how the boss works. This change in tactics the OP recommending for bubbles is sure to help some folks adjust. But I think it is you and the other folks spouting its ok to use AoE are the ones don’t understand Coppers basic mechanics. He is a husk. He is resistant to direct damage. He is vulnerable to condition damage. Even the wiki lists direct damage is significantly reduced. Those AoE skills you are touting are wasted on him. You don’t even address how if you are not traited for condition damage you shouldn’t even be there. That full strength DPS could better utilized on Amber and Gold/Silver.

I run Copper almost exclusively because I’m traited for condi. I’ve been on those runs where 3min are left on the clock. There was no AoE. When you see that health drop like a stone its not AoE, its full stacks of bleed, full stacks of vulnerability, poison, burning, torment. I run staff elementalist until breach, and then I adjust to battle Copper. I switch to scepter/dagger though I only use skill 1 and pour on those bleeds. Do you even watch the stacks. I do. Those failures, those close calls, are not caused by lack of AoE. They are caused by players not keeping up full conditions on boss.

AoE is not the answer!

Thing is, the condition caps can be reached by 2 or 3 people. Anyone beyond that is wasted, so you do want AoE. If nothing else, to burn down the offshoots to prevent them from going nuts.

Evil Octopi.8253:

AoE is not the answer!

Explain how not using AoE helps more than it hurts without going off-topic. Try to answer it in three sentences or less without going off on several different tangents.

(Hint: You can’t, if you actually understand how the boss works)

Azhure.1857:

The very best Copper I was at had great DPS and condition dmg, all single target, and we were the first to finish a Breach Boss.

Jip, single target, dps, someone kiting the adds properly and another kiting copper away from the bubbles while people actually focused on them.

Nokaru.7831:

Evil Octopi.8253:

AoE is not the answer!

Explain how not using AoE helps more than it hurts without going off-topic. Try to answer it in three sentences or less without going off on several different tangents.

(Hint: You can’t, if you actually understand how the boss works)

AOE. Is. Bad.

There explained in 3 sentences without tangents :P

Guide to beating copper no problem: Use whatever attack you want, keep him poisoned, try to pop bubbles before they get to him.

Yay

CureForLiving.5360:

Azhure.1857:

The very best Copper I was at had great DPS and condition dmg, all single target, and we were the first to finish a Breach Boss.

Jip, single target, dps, someone kiting the adds properly and another kiting copper away from the bubbles while people actually focused on them.

Nokaru.7831:

Evil Octopi.8253:

AoE is not the answer!

Explain how not using AoE helps more than it hurts without going off-topic. Try to answer it in three sentences or less without going off on several different tangents.

(Hint: You can’t, if you actually understand how the boss works)

AOE. Is. Bad.

There explained in 3 sentences without tangents :P

This is why it went from the first boss defeated by a large margin to last with a moderate fail rate.

CureForLiving.5360:

Azhure.1857:

The very best Copper I was at had great DPS and condition dmg, all single target, and we were the first to finish a Breach Boss.

Jip, single target, dps, someone kiting the adds properly and another kiting copper away from the bubbles while people actually focused on them.

Nokaru.7831:

Evil Octopi.8253:

AoE is not the answer!

Explain how not using AoE helps more than it hurts without going off-topic. Try to answer it in three sentences or less without going off on several different tangents.

(Hint: You can’t, if you actually understand how the boss works)

AOE. Is. Bad.

There explained in 3 sentences without tangents :P

That still doesn’t explain how exactly AoE is bad… if the bubbles get popped by the AoE when they’re not close enough to the husk, that’s good. If they’re popped by AoE at husk, that doesn’t matter as they were about to pop by themselves anyway.

Remember why DPS build is always superior to pure Condition build is PvE: Condition has a damage cap and can easily be overwritten by players that don’t spec in condi. Furthermore it only takes a few condi-specced players to reach the limit cap, if that happens then what should the other people at Copper do? Anymore condi on him at this point is actually a waste so it’s better to have more DPS on him.

Tell people to not use DPS at Copper is not the answer, he is a champion Husk so naturally he has high toughness on top of high HP so you need all the DPS and condi damage you can get and the best thing about DPS build is there is no cap.

The ideal scenario would be 3-5 condi specced players at Copper and the rest can go all out DPS on him while killing/kiting bubble.

Would also be useful if mesmer used nullfield on him instead of feedback.

Nokaru.7831:

Explain how not using AoE helps more than it hurts without going off-topic. Try to answer it in three sentences or less without going off on several different tangents.

(Hint: You can’t, if you actually understand how the boss works)

AoE abilities have other effects, such as Ice Bow applying conditions and various ele AoEs serving as blast finishers (and thus can stack things like might, which increase condi damage). Also, a broad based AoE can assist in killing bubbles before they reach the boss. Here’s my spare third sentence.