Guild Wars 2

So the game has had about 2-3 weeks to settle now, and while a lot has yet to be determined and to evolve, I’m just going to say that at this point in time there are some seriously troubling economy issues – mostly stemming from loot, gear, and gold sinks. These issues, I find, are to the point that they go past mere inconvenience – they’re actually hurting the game – but I’ll get to that. What I’m finding right now to be the core problem is that there are incredibly conflicting goals in regards to philosophies over gear and grind, and what seems to be an attempt at curbing inflation that’s just stifling any real choice about how to make money.

So either one of two things is happening here that I’m noticing: either everything is way too egregious in price (waypoint travel costs, cultural armor costs) and the economy can’t inflate to curb it, or loot is just absolutely terrible and it’s stifling economic growth. It could be a mix of both. In either case I’m seeing a lot of problems pop up from this. Foremost, it’s locking players into mindless, immobile grind just to make ends meet. For being advertised as a game without substantial grind, I’m finding a heavy amount of players sitting in the Cursed Shore running back and forth on events at the Penitent Path. There are several reasons for this:

1: Waypoint costs are egregious. Orr is the only area worth farming, and even if it WERE worth it to farm other areas – you’d spend half your income teleporting around. This isn’t just about convenience – if it were, you would see people running around for more events. Instead players are choosing to stay in single areas that provide them the most events possible. It’s not worth it to deviate from farming this place, because you either pay huge waypoint costs trying to get to other areas, or you’re playing a class that has trouble running and you end up paying a bunch of cash in armor repairs and (surprise) waypoint costs if you die trying to get anywhere. Solution? Stay in one spot and farm.

The only caveat to this is to farm large group events, you know, Teqatl, the Shatterer, etc. But I don’t see many players doing that either. Why?

2: The loot is terrible. I’m not going to go too in-depth on this one because it’s been pointed out, but loot is currently just awful. Group event and dungeon chests filled with nothing but blues, veteran and champion mobs that don’t drop significantly increased loot value, etc. The general drop rate is also poor. I know the evidence is anecdotal, but I spent 8 hours yesterday farming the Penitent Path (I’d much rather be doing other things to make money, but like I said, waypoint costs among other things don’t really condone it) and even with 140% Magic Find I got a total of two rare drops. In eight hours. And that’s doing occasional WvW to make sure there’s no anti-farm code kicking in. With 140% MF. My roommate and I both have 200 hours in the game at this point, and neither of us have yet to see a single exotic drop. Where are all the rare items?

As a quick aside: Can I ask why there has been a sudden abandonment on the policy of not having to grind to be able to gear up? I was of the impression that Anet was going to continue their policy of max gear for cheap. About the time I was level 75 I began to look for max gear, which is when I found out it can only be acquired by either shelling out 5x the amount of Karma I’d earned just playing the game, shelling out 15-20 gold on the auction house, or crafting (which if you know how much this costs, please tell me, because I don’t have a clue, I went cook). That meant I had to settle for rare, non-max gear until I can grind and farm enough money for max gear. That does NOT sound like Guild Wars or Arenanet. Even since Prophecies the stance had been that you could get max gear, for cheap, even if it wasn’t the most aesthetically pleasing, the aesthetics were the only part that cost money. You could purchase a full set of max armor (sans materials) for 7 platinum. That’s the equivalent of 50 silver or less. Yet I’m finding in order to get max gear, I’m having to pay up to twenty times that price? Please tell me the market just hasn’t settled yet.

Oh, and if that’s the base price for max gear, don’t even look at the price for aesthetic gear. 120 gold for tier 3 cultural armor? That I have to then transmute on exotic gear?That’s just ridiculous. And before anyone takes up the stance that it’s all about prestige and cosmetics, and not meant to be obtained in a week of farm, let me draw another comparison to GW1. In GW1 the most “prestigious” armor, Obsidian, cost about 1.2 million gold at the time Ecto were about 7-8k each. I don’t condone, nor encourage anyone to buy gold for real money, but I am going to use real money as a monetary base for this comparison since it’s the only way to value currency between the two games. In Guild Wars 1, you could illicitly purchase gold for a rate of about 1 million for $80 USD. That puts the price of Obsidian armor at a real-money value of around $100 USD, give or take. Currently, in GW2, websites are advertising illicit gold at a rate of 10 gold for $25 USD. That puts the price of Tier 3 cultural armor, before transmutation, at $250 USD, over twice the cost of Obsidian armor at its peak price. If we go by Anet’s own in-game store, where you can turn Gems into gold at a rate of $10 USD = 800 Gems = 2g13s, at 120 gold for full Tier 3 cultural armor, it costs over $500 USD to purchase the set through gems swapping. That’s five times the peak price of Obsidian armor in GW1. I don’t care if you think Cultural Armor should be hard to obtain or not – 500 dollars in in-game currency exchange is a pretty obvious indicator that either base monetization (waypoints, armor, etc) are heinously overvalued, or base drops (pure gold, sell-to-merchant-values, etc) are heinously undervalued.

But before this turns into any more of a rant, I’ll get back on point.

Loot drop rates, loot value rates, or the general overpricing of base items are stifling the economy. People aren’t getting valuable drops, so the price of high end items are starting to climb through the roof, while the base loot values sink through the floor because they’re everywhere. Waypoint costs are so high that travelling around to break the anti-farm code isn’t really feasible, and players are simply bottlenecking high-event areas where they can stay in one place and essentially AFK farm the same events over and over (Why pay 6-8 silver to teleport to and from Teqatl and break the monotony, when the average payout of the chest is <6 silver)? I know that system is there to encourage people to do dynamic events in the area they’re in, but it’s also forcing people to just absolutely never move from where they are. This also has to do with the fact that there’s only 1, maybe 2 feasible areas for a level 80 to farm effectively, but that’s a separate issue.

The core problem is that gold sinks are so effective at preventing inflation and rare drops are so scarce right now that farming, never teleporting and hoping you get something valuable is pretty much the “right” way to farm. Playing the game casually will put you spending so much on waypoint costs and repairs (these are inevitable, please don’t try to argue that you never have to repair your armor, everyone gets cheesed at some point) that you HAVE to farm or you will not be able to afford anything above rare items, and not without weeks of play. Maybe there’s another side to the economy that I haven’t seen yet, like crafting, but on the farming side of things, I’m really seeing no other option than to find and stick to mass events, the same events, over and over.

And I’m worried about the future of the economy if it stays like this, where vendor trash is going to keep being the same price where incredibly rare materials, weapons, and upgrades keep hiking in price. I’m also worried that an even worse approach to a solution might be taken, such as nerfing the Orr events that are one of the key ways players are making money (to encourage other forms of farming) while keeping the price of waypoints and other gold sinks the same. If that happens, I’m not sure how your average player is going to get by.

I know this is a lot, but I’m speaking to a lot of concerns I’ve seen people making, and feel like it’s an issue that needs a bit more attention brought to it – especially since it’s having a negative impact on the core philosophies the game was meant to be built on (no mindless farming, lots of choice of how to make money and play, etc). Please disagree with my points or give me perspectives from non-farming ways to make money, and tell me it’s not that bad. Because on my end it’s pretty bad.

tl;dr: Base values (armor, waypoints) are egregious to the point of extortion. Loot drop rates and values are terrible and it’s creating a huge dichotomy in prices. This is forcing people to farm if they want to get anything above scraping by, and people are resorting to staying in the same place to avoid spending money instead of enjoying the game.

Ya I don’t think I’ve ever really gotten a rare from a boss/dungeon chest, it’s pretty underwhelming.

Your post was very long but I understand the frustration. It seems like they feared inflation so much that there is very little growth. I know that this game is very new but already at 30% map paying almost 2s for moving between maps, it really becomes painful. I actually run everywhere now even if it takes longer because the level penalty for wp usage is just so severe that exploring and gathering costs money to do rather than gaining money especially if you’re in the lower level areas. I also sell everything on the TP to eek out some savings and I wonder who the heck can afford those 75g weapons that are posted on the TP because I don’t think I’ll ever see that much money.

I don’t want stuff to be so high in inflation that that money becomes worthless but I wish at least, exploring maps and gathering would even out in the end. Currently, I go somewhere and I have to stay there until I get back my travel cost and good luck if I die where I have no allies and have to use a WP again :P

As a sort of pseudo-karmic thing I read your entire furiously bulging walls of text… see I am notorious at times for over the top long posts but this is just ridiculous, knocking me right off the map with that one :P

Honestly, your concerns are mostly in the right place I for one agree whole heatedly that way point costs at higher levels need to drastically change, because I want to have fun with lower level friends, I find that it’s great to go chill with them because it scales me to their level which is a good system, meaning we can still enjoy their content without me being too overpowered. Only if we end up fast traveling this whole exercise ends up costing me heaps of money -_- which is just wrong.

Anyway just a heads up, ultimately you want ppl to acknowledge what you are saying but at least 9 out of 10 of the people who looked at this post went “HOLY UNDEAD BATMAN THE WORDS THEY NEVER END” and they moved on without reading, so u rly need to plan it out a lot more, reduce the repetition to get yr point across or no one will read it

I have a feeling that some players and this might be your problem too are just moving too fast for the game, honestly you need to worry less about farming and just go with the flow. Go explore a new area, or re-visit a favourite area with a friend, do a dungen yr not too familiar with, run around more instead of fast travelling and hopefully a bit of cash will build up. You dont need the best gear in the game right this second, no one does, AND in the meantime some of the economy issues should balance out. Keep in mind they did not expect sales like this :P the game was sold out for AGES and a new, HUGE wave of ppl only hit the scene about 1 week ago.

Peace.

Luce.4951:

Currently, I go somewhere and I have to stay there until I get back my travel cost and good luck if I die where I have no allies and have to use a WP again :P

This has also been my experience. When exploring the lower level areas I have to make sure I don’t get swamped (I’m currently an Ele specced into glass cannon, so there is a threat of dying even in low level areas) because there’s a good chance that even a single armor repair + a waypoint will cost me more than I make exploring the area (sans 100% completion reward). Even if I get 100% explorer without a hitch, I get maybe 20 silver at most, for at least 2-3 hours of work.

Bassario.3465:

Anyway just a heads up, ultimately you want ppl to acknowledge what you are saying but at least 9 out of 10 of the people who looked at this post went “HOLY UNDEAD BATMAN THE WORDS THEY NEVER END” and they moved on without reading, so u rly need to plan it out a lot more, reduce the repetition to get yr point across or no one will read it

I’m used to making long posts, and do so frequently on other forums like the League of Legends boards (and they’re typically more analytical than this). I’ve tried condensing posts into shorter forms, but I’ve come to find that leaving out even a single detail will cause people to jump and make assumptions out of context. I had to make the entire paragraph about how Tier 3 Cultural Armor is at least twice the peak price of Obsidian armor because if I didn’t, someone would say “Yeah well it’s supposed to be super expensive!” when in context, we’re talking about hundreds of dollars in base exchange rates, which is clearly out of line.

Darmikau.9413:

Bassario.3465:

Anyway just a heads up, ultimately you want ppl to acknowledge what you are saying but at least 9 out of 10 of the people who looked at this post went “HOLY UNDEAD BATMAN THE WORDS THEY NEVER END” and they moved on without reading, so u rly need to plan it out a lot more, reduce the repetition to get yr point across or no one will read it

I’m used to making long posts, and do so frequently on other forums like the League of Legends boards (and they’re typically more analytical than this). I’ve tried condensing posts into shorter forms, but I’ve come to find that leaving out even a single detail will cause people to jump and make assumptions out of context. I had to make the entire paragraph about how Tier 3 Cultural Armor is at least twice the peak price of Obsidian armor because if I didn’t, someone would say “Yeah well it’s supposed to be super expensive!” when in context, we’re talking about hundreds of dollars in base exchange rates, which is clearly out of line.

I agree with the long winded approach reason. Too many times people read a post and nit-pick it to the point of it being a troll thread in under 8 posts. Instead of nit-picking a post, people should try to comprehend it first. Then if the poster is being akitten flame them.

They read something and find the stupidest little thing to blow up about. "You used “i” instead or “I”… your whole post is a rant and therefore not worthy or reading… QQ much?"… crap like that. And the flame war begins.

Yet I still guarantee you the vast majority will simply bypass your post. You have to decide if u wanna appeal to as many ppl as possible or the select few while keeping your bases covered for silly responses but they are generally inevitable and can be easily cleared up in posts below.

Don’t let people get on your case about long posts. I’m one of those people at actually enjoys reading and so I read your post and thought it was very well written, and very insightful.

I wish I could comment more on it, but I’m too much of a noob to even form a coherent thought. I really just wanted to give you praise for taking the time to write something so well thought out.

I never read long posts but I was almost sad when your post ended, this sums up exactly how I feel about gw2 right now. I’ve been waiting for this game for nearly 3 years (less than some hard core fans, but still substantial) and have found myself heart broken by the fact that they have betrayed ALL of their morals. it’s barely a month in and I already can’t see myself playing past December.

Adlez.6543:

I never read long posts but I was almost sad when your post ended, this sums up exactly how I feel about gw2 right now. I’ve been waiting for this game for nearly 3 years (less than some hard core fans, but still substantial) and have found myself heart broken by the fact that they have betrayed ALL of their morals. it’s barely a month in and I already can’t see myself playing past December.

I really hope, and have a feeling, that some of these concerns will level out over time. That said I still think certain things, such as Tier 3 cultural armor and waypoint costs are simply too much, regardless of where the economy is headed. Waypoint costs are okay if you’re not interested in making money, they’re only a slight nuisance. But when you’re actively trying to avoid spending money to save up for something, it’s really aggravating to not be able to waypoint around the map without losing a pretty nasty chunk of money.

Don’t let people get on your case about long posts. I’m one of those people at actually enjoys reading and so I read your post and thought it was very well written, and very insightful.
I wish I could comment more on it, but I’m too much of a noob to even form a coherent thought. I really just wanted to give you praise for taking the time to write something so well thought out.

The point is really just to encourage discussion. I tried to hit all the bases of what I feel are core issues, but I’d like to know what I’m missing, too. If there are better and less monotonous ways to farm I obviously want to know about them.

The waypoint costs are a real problem. Not sure about the rest of the stuff you said because I’m only level 70. I can actually afford the waypoints pretty easily but it still feels terrible and I don’t think it adds anything to the game.

I get that the devs want people to actually walk places but honestly screw that. Players who like to walk through the maps are free to do that, and honestly I might find myself doing that sometimes just because I feel like it. Being forced to just feels like garbage though. Tired of devs trying to combat player behavior. It’s just frustrating.

Overall agreement here. The prices on a lot of things seem very off.

I saved up money religiously, didn’t way point unless needed, have 90% map completion, finished the story, have AC explorable mode on farm with guildies, and have leveled two professions to 400. All that and I was sitting at about 15 gold. When I realized I didn’t even have enough money to buy ONE piece of cultural T3 I was really disheartened.

I feel like I am punished for wanting to play with friends. I go back to lower level areas to play with them and often lose more money traveling than I earn by playing with them.

I’ve become quite addicted to crafting. The levelling rewards alone are amazing.

That said, I’m now level 71 with a 398 Jeweller, a 278 Artificer, and a 178 Tailor (separate character). I have found that the rate of acquiring materials through harvesting and playing (on one’s own) is not sufficient to level crafting trades at an acceptable pace (at least on par with current character level). 6 hours of playing/gathering materials can be burned in about 15 minutes of crafting, and even then you are generally left with a few random mats you need to “top up” your own stash from the Trading Company. There’s no two ways about it… I’d have to say that crafters are forced to use the Trading Company.

The economy reflects this. Since the Trading Company has come online, material costs are generally more than finished product value, and the margin rates increase dramatically every day (in favor of materials). I believe crafting has become economically unviable for a large majority of players.

I generally spend a day of playing, then choose whether I will blow money on PvP (through repairs), or crafting. I run with a float of anywhere between 5 silver to 1.5 gold. Finished product sales generally recoup anywhere from 10% to 75% of my original investment, depending on the commodity that I am selling.

I think that there are several suggestions that might help tip these scales more in the player’s favour, including:

- Reducing repair costs
- Reducing travel costs
- Increasing drop-rates of crafting materials (Fangs, blood, cloth, etc.)
- Yielding more Gems per harvest node

I’ve just started working with Globs of Ectoplasm. I’ve reviewed what is involved with farming these. I’m in an adult guild primarily comprised of RL friends, and our schedules permit us to run a couple of dungeons a week. This means I will also be looking to the Trading Company for materials, and Globs are going for an average of 23 silver a pop. Ouch.

Hope to see some tuning to the economy. I don’t mind things being a bit of a challenge, but some minor adjustments would probably contribute to the fun factor in big ways.

Full Tier 3 set needs to be 50 gold max. Even then, it means i’d have to grind around 30 hours for it.

Darmikau, you should honestly pick up crafting to make armor or find someone who can make it. You’ll have a full exotic set in no time. There are also some really good crafting guides on reddit. I think one even claimed that you can get to 400 with just ~4g.

If you decide to let it craft. The basic materials (orichalcum, gossamer, …) are rather cheap and very farmable, the materials that decides the stats vary a LOT from dirt cheap to rather expansive and the ectos went down to around 17s when I last checked. Overall, it shouldn’t be a problem.

I know gold farming to get max stats is frustrating as hell, so don’t do it. I even think ANET designed it that way that you get your exotics via crafting.

Part of the problem is that you’re looking at “max gear” as a requirement, when the reality is that rares, or even masterwork gear, will suffice. Does max gear help? Certainly. Is it required to run dungeons, finish events, or kill endgame bosses? No, it isn’t.

Endgame gear SHOULD be a grind, because it’s your final set of weapon and armor. I agree with you that the grind is quite extensive (and inflation currently benefits a select few; Legendary costs have spiked nearly 4x in cost in the last two weeks) but the grind is very specific to optional items that hold no significant value to gameplay, only aesthetics.

Now the cash sinks, I do agree with you on. Goldsinks are necessary, but let’s be honest; If the cost of waypointing requires getting 5-6 drops just to even out the cost, it becomes not worth the trip.