Guild Wars 2

maddoctor.2738:

Shootsfoot.9276:

maddoctor.2738:

And I ask again, would you like the silly alternative, of having all the skills with a cooldown so at some time you wouldn’t be able to use any of your skills? Like what could EASILY happen in Guild Wars 1?

Play a sword/shield Guardian and you’ll see that already happens.

Fire off skill 1…let it autocycle….wait for your other cooldowns…dodge occasionally.

I use Sword/Focus a lot, haven’t used a shield for a while. Also, weapon swap.

There’s another thing that irritates me….the focus is a better shield than the…shield.

clay.7849:

digiowl.9620:

DrixTrix.7168:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

TwoBit.5903:

To be fair, the designers probably didn’t know what they were getting into when they decided to do “active combat.”

They clearly didnt. Despite the fact that they added jumping and dodging and swimming, this game is still based too much around skills to be considered “action” combat.

Now all we have is a poor excuse for either.

In your opinion. I actually quite like the combat.

Some people prefer shallow easy combat. That, however, is not something for a developer to be proud of.

The fact that’s it’s shallow is ALSO your opinion. I don’t particularly find the combat shallow. And I think Anet has made a game to be proud of. Of course that’s also just an opinion.

Nope, wrong again. By definition the combat is shallow. Maybe you should read up on that.

i think it is shallow if you don’t make use of combo fields and all the other abilities extra effects, our definition of shallow is very different, and thats what it comes down to, not facts, opinions.

There are a few fields that do interesting things when comboed, the rest simply do the same old boons and conditions in larger amounts.

Combos rarely add depth to the game as they are very seldom more beneficial than just auto attacking. As a side effect they are certainly cool, but purposely setting up a combo for its effects is very useless 9/10 times compared to just auto attacking.

are we talking PvE here because i sure as hell view them as beneficial, i can have 80-90% chaos armor uptime, projectiles for extra damage, confusion stacking (more pvp as not very good in pve), retaliation on distortion for big attacks…..

i’m sorry but i don’t think there seldom beneficial at all i think they are extremely beneficial, granted i do more pvp and wvw than anything but ask anyone in this setting worth there salt and they will say your not playing optimally and not nearly as effectively as you can be and should be.

all this talk about Facts and opinions is making me chuckle, you say some things are facts some of you yet there is no data to back up your facts, really its just your opinion but as you stated it was a fact and when asked to provide the proper information as to how and why it is a fact, all you have is an opinion, so not fact at all, really, just like my paragraphs above, there opinions, not facts as to why there not seldom beneficial.

however i could argue the point that it is fact because it happens in the game and is hard coded to it, theres a loose reason and data as to why there beneficial and the truth is they give extra damage etc, so you aren’t playing optimally….

see what i mean?

clay.7849:

maddoctor.2738:

clay.7849:

maddoctor.2738:

clay.7849:

I’m not saying anything about what I want. I’m saying they are the same thing.

As an aside, auto-attacks, whether it is the 1 skill or not, are relatively boring. So are the other skills that basically just add +dmg or +conditions to the skill bar.

No you are just saying what you want and what you want to believe is false, accept it.
They are not the same thing, at all.

And about the last part of your nonsense, you know many skills in other games that don’t just add +dmg or +conditions? 99% of GW1 skills did this, or you forgot about that? Maybe they are also ALL auto-attacks, they just have cooldowns? So all the skills in GW1 were just autoattacks with cooldowns according to your logic?

Ok, I’m going to step back from this conversation. I have no idea what you are saying and why you are putting words in my mouth.

It just so happens that when I push “1” in GW2 it is amazingly similar to what happens when I push “spacebar” in GW1. So much so, that I fail to see the difference other than one is listed as a skill in the UI and one isn’t.

And to me it so happens that when I push “1” in GW2 it is amazingly different to what happens when I push “spacebar” in GW1, see two can play this game. I explained already why they are different, you called it playing with semantics, you couldn’t find the proper words I see, and I use your own logic that the vast majority of skills in GW1 are similar to auto-attacks, excpet they have cooldown. How different is Fireball between the two games, or Immolate with Scepter1? They are NOT different at all.

And I ask again, would you like the silly alternative, of having all the skills with a cooldown so at some time you wouldn’t be able to use any of your skills? Like what could EASILY happen in Guild Wars 1?

Oh I completely agree that most skills in GW2 are like auto attack skills in that they provide very little interesting mechanics and don’t really do anythinguch different than the 1 skill. That’s kinda why the combat is so shallow.

Now I see what you’re saying.

So most skills in GW1 are also the same because they follow the same formula, so every game in existance according to you have uninteresting mechanics and aren’t different to skill1 and also have shallow combat. Great now I understand you more. All games have shallow combat yay! I wish someday a game without shallow combat will be released and you will be happy.

DrixTrix.7168:

i’m sorry but i don’t think there seldom beneficial at all i think they are extremely beneficial, granted i do more pvp and wvw than anything but ask anyone in this setting worth there salt and they will say your not playing optimally and not nearly as effectively as you can be and should be.

That’s a bit of a false dichotomy.

maddoctor.2738:

clay.7849:

maddoctor.2738:

clay.7849:

maddoctor.2738:

clay.7849:

I’m not saying anything about what I want. I’m saying they are the same thing.

As an aside, auto-attacks, whether it is the 1 skill or not, are relatively boring. So are the other skills that basically just add +dmg or +conditions to the skill bar.

No you are just saying what you want and what you want to believe is false, accept it.
They are not the same thing, at all.

And about the last part of your nonsense, you know many skills in other games that don’t just add +dmg or +conditions? 99% of GW1 skills did this, or you forgot about that? Maybe they are also ALL auto-attacks, they just have cooldowns? So all the skills in GW1 were just autoattacks with cooldowns according to your logic?

Ok, I’m going to step back from this conversation. I have no idea what you are saying and why you are putting words in my mouth.

It just so happens that when I push “1” in GW2 it is amazingly similar to what happens when I push “spacebar” in GW1. So much so, that I fail to see the difference other than one is listed as a skill in the UI and one isn’t.

And to me it so happens that when I push “1” in GW2 it is amazingly different to what happens when I push “spacebar” in GW1, see two can play this game. I explained already why they are different, you called it playing with semantics, you couldn’t find the proper words I see, and I use your own logic that the vast majority of skills in GW1 are similar to auto-attacks, excpet they have cooldown. How different is Fireball between the two games, or Immolate with Scepter1? They are NOT different at all.

And I ask again, would you like the silly alternative, of having all the skills with a cooldown so at some time you wouldn’t be able to use any of your skills? Like what could EASILY happen in Guild Wars 1?

Oh I completely agree that most skills in GW2 are like auto attack skills in that they provide very little interesting mechanics and don’t really do anythinguch different than the 1 skill. That’s kinda why the combat is so shallow.

Now I see what you’re saying.

So most skills in GW1 are also the same because they follow the same formula, so every game in existance according to you have uninteresting mechanics and aren’t different to skill1 and also have shallow combat. Great now I understand you more. All games have shallow combat yay! I wish someday a game without shallow combat will be released and you will be happy.

I didn’t realize that bull’s stike, interrupts, protection, healing, lot and lots of hexes were the same as what we have now?

Face it, you are arguing for argument’s sake. If you don’t think that the 1 skill in GW2 and the auto-attack in GW1 are similar, then clearly you have left the planet Earth.

DrixTrix.7168:

clay.7849:

digiowl.9620:

DrixTrix.7168:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

TwoBit.5903:

To be fair, the designers probably didn’t know what they were getting into when they decided to do “active combat.”

They clearly didnt. Despite the fact that they added jumping and dodging and swimming, this game is still based too much around skills to be considered “action” combat.

Now all we have is a poor excuse for either.

In your opinion. I actually quite like the combat.

Some people prefer shallow easy combat. That, however, is not something for a developer to be proud of.

The fact that’s it’s shallow is ALSO your opinion. I don’t particularly find the combat shallow. And I think Anet has made a game to be proud of. Of course that’s also just an opinion.

Nope, wrong again. By definition the combat is shallow. Maybe you should read up on that.

i think it is shallow if you don’t make use of combo fields and all the other abilities extra effects, our definition of shallow is very different, and thats what it comes down to, not facts, opinions.

There are a few fields that do interesting things when comboed, the rest simply do the same old boons and conditions in larger amounts.

Combos rarely add depth to the game as they are very seldom more beneficial than just auto attacking. As a side effect they are certainly cool, but purposely setting up a combo for its effects is very useless 9/10 times compared to just auto attacking.

are we talking PvE here because i sure as hell view them as beneficial, i can have 80-90% chaos armor uptime, projectiles for extra damage, confusion stacking (more pvp as not very good in pve), retaliation on distortion for big attacks…..

i’m sorry but i don’t think there seldom beneficial at all i think they are extremely beneficial, granted i do more pvp and wvw than anything but ask anyone in this setting worth there salt and they will say your not playing optimally and not nearly as effectively as you can be and should be.

---

all this talk about Facts and opinions is making me chuckle, you say some things are facts some of you yet there is no data to back up your facts, really its just your opinion but as you stated it was a fact and when asked to provide the proper information as to how and why it is a fact, all you have is an opinion, so not fact at all, really, just like my paragraphs above, there opinions, not facts as to why there not seldom beneficial.

however i could argue the point that it is fact because it happens in the game and is hard coded to it, theres a loose reason and data as to why there beneficial and the truth is they give extra damage etc, so you aren’t playing optimally….

see what i mean?

Give me specific examples, in PvE (which is what we are talking about), about what you think is better than direct damage, and I will do the math to prove you wrong.

Math is good for stuff like that.

maddoctor.2738:

And about the last part of your nonsense, you know many skills in other games that don’t just add +dmg or +conditions? 99% of GW1 skills did this, or you forgot about that? Maybe they are also ALL auto-attacks, they just have cooldowns? So all the skills in GW1 were just autoattacks with cooldowns according to your logic?

No, actually, they didn’t.
On a quick count, roughly 160 skills (more than 10%) were hexes, most of which have actually interesting effects (some just cause straight damage/degen).
Roughly 200 (nearly 20%) were enchantments, most of which are more interesting than the boons in GW2.
Then there are more buffs in shouts, stances, chants, echos, and plenty of CC attack skills, there are more (and far more useful) summons from Rituals and Minions, and obviously a lot of heals.
tl;dr probably at least 2/3 the skills had interesting effects, far more interesting than the handful of boons and conditions in GW2.

clay.7849:

maddoctor.2738:

clay.7849:

maddoctor.2738:

clay.7849:

maddoctor.2738:

clay.7849:

I’m not saying anything about what I want. I’m saying they are the same thing.

As an aside, auto-attacks, whether it is the 1 skill or not, are relatively boring. So are the other skills that basically just add +dmg or +conditions to the skill bar.

No you are just saying what you want and what you want to believe is false, accept it.
They are not the same thing, at all.

And about the last part of your nonsense, you know many skills in other games that don’t just add +dmg or +conditions? 99% of GW1 skills did this, or you forgot about that? Maybe they are also ALL auto-attacks, they just have cooldowns? So all the skills in GW1 were just autoattacks with cooldowns according to your logic?

Ok, I’m going to step back from this conversation. I have no idea what you are saying and why you are putting words in my mouth.

It just so happens that when I push “1” in GW2 it is amazingly similar to what happens when I push “spacebar” in GW1. So much so, that I fail to see the difference other than one is listed as a skill in the UI and one isn’t.

And to me it so happens that when I push “1” in GW2 it is amazingly different to what happens when I push “spacebar” in GW1, see two can play this game. I explained already why they are different, you called it playing with semantics, you couldn’t find the proper words I see, and I use your own logic that the vast majority of skills in GW1 are similar to auto-attacks, excpet they have cooldown. How different is Fireball between the two games, or Immolate with Scepter1? They are NOT different at all.

And I ask again, would you like the silly alternative, of having all the skills with a cooldown so at some time you wouldn’t be able to use any of your skills? Like what could EASILY happen in Guild Wars 1?

Oh I completely agree that most skills in GW2 are like auto attack skills in that they provide very little interesting mechanics and don’t really do anythinguch different than the 1 skill. That’s kinda why the combat is so shallow.

Now I see what you’re saying.

So most skills in GW1 are also the same because they follow the same formula, so every game in existance according to you have uninteresting mechanics and aren’t different to skill1 and also have shallow combat. Great now I understand you more. All games have shallow combat yay! I wish someday a game without shallow combat will be released and you will be happy.

I didn’t realize that bull’s stike, interrupts, protection, healing, lot and lots of hexes were the same as what we have now?

Face it, you are arguing for argument’s sake. If you don’t think that the 1 skill in GW2 and the auto-attack in GW1 are similar, then clearly you have left the planet Earth.

I am not sure how Auto-attack was in GW1 that well i only played 2hr of it and did not like it because of the scepter attk was very boring but GW2 1 attk on most classes is more then just dmg most of them are combo with in them self becoming 2 to 3 different attks in one. Some go even as far as having combo finisher on them or tie in effect with unitys. They are similar in that you can make it auto but in GW2 you can make any 1-5 skill auto if you wanted to.

clay.7849:

maddoctor.2738:

clay.7849:

maddoctor.2738:

clay.7849:

maddoctor.2738:

clay.7849:

I’m not saying anything about what I want. I’m saying they are the same thing.

As an aside, auto-attacks, whether it is the 1 skill or not, are relatively boring. So are the other skills that basically just add +dmg or +conditions to the skill bar.

No you are just saying what you want and what you want to believe is false, accept it.
They are not the same thing, at all.

And about the last part of your nonsense, you know many skills in other games that don’t just add +dmg or +conditions? 99% of GW1 skills did this, or you forgot about that? Maybe they are also ALL auto-attacks, they just have cooldowns? So all the skills in GW1 were just autoattacks with cooldowns according to your logic?

Ok, I’m going to step back from this conversation. I have no idea what you are saying and why you are putting words in my mouth.

It just so happens that when I push “1” in GW2 it is amazingly similar to what happens when I push “spacebar” in GW1. So much so, that I fail to see the difference other than one is listed as a skill in the UI and one isn’t.

And to me it so happens that when I push “1” in GW2 it is amazingly different to what happens when I push “spacebar” in GW1, see two can play this game. I explained already why they are different, you called it playing with semantics, you couldn’t find the proper words I see, and I use your own logic that the vast majority of skills in GW1 are similar to auto-attacks, excpet they have cooldown. How different is Fireball between the two games, or Immolate with Scepter1? They are NOT different at all.

And I ask again, would you like the silly alternative, of having all the skills with a cooldown so at some time you wouldn’t be able to use any of your skills? Like what could EASILY happen in Guild Wars 1?

Oh I completely agree that most skills in GW2 are like auto attack skills in that they provide very little interesting mechanics and don’t really do anythinguch different than the 1 skill. That’s kinda why the combat is so shallow.

Now I see what you’re saying.

So most skills in GW1 are also the same because they follow the same formula, so every game in existance according to you have uninteresting mechanics and aren’t different to skill1 and also have shallow combat. Great now I understand you more. All games have shallow combat yay! I wish someday a game without shallow combat will be released and you will be happy.

I didn’t realize that bull’s stike, interrupts, protection, healing, lot and lots of hexes were the same as what we have now?

Face it, you are arguing for argument’s sake. If you don’t think that the 1 skill in GW2 and the auto-attack in GW1 are similar, then clearly you have left the planet Earth.

Really? We have interrupts, although not as many as in GW1, we have protection (it’s a boon for those that don’t know), we have lots of healing, mostly personal, yay for no trinity. Debuffs are missing, punishing/shutdown debuffs mostly but surely lots of other staff IS there.

I explained so many times why they are different, you failed to read and comprehend the obvious, I won’t repeat it all again, go up and reread the previous posts, they will open your eyes.

I’m still waiting for an answer, how you would like the alternative of being in a situation were everything is on CD. The ONLY actual similarity between skill1 and autoattack is that thye both have no CD, nothing else, if you can’t tell the difference then I don’t know how to explain it more.

Jski.6180:

I am not sure how Auto-attack was in GW1 that well i only played 2hr of it and did not like it because of the scepter attk was very boring but GW2 1 attk on most classes is more then just dmg most of them are combo with in them self becoming 2 to 3 different attks in one. Some go even as far as having combo finisher on them or tie in effect with unitys. They are similar in that you can make it auto but in GW2 you can make any 1-5 skill auto if you wanted to.

I guess we have another alien on these forums. Auto attack in GW1 was just swinging your sword looking at some small damage numbers above the head of your target, nothing else, similar to most other mmos. And of course vastly different to GW2.

maddoctor.2738:

Jski.6180:

I am not sure how Auto-attack was in GW1 that well i only played 2hr of it and did not like it because of the scepter attk was very boring but GW2 1 attk on most classes is more then just dmg most of them are combo with in them self becoming 2 to 3 different attks in one. Some go even as far as having combo finisher on them or tie in effect with unitys. They are similar in that you can make it auto but in GW2 you can make any 1-5 skill auto if you wanted to.

I guess we have another alien on these forums. Auto attack in GW1 was just swinging your sword looking at some small damage numbers above the head of your target, nothing else, similar to most other mmos. And of course vastly different to GW2.

Alien?

maddoctor.2738:

Jski.6180:

I am not sure how Auto-attack was in GW1 that well i only played 2hr of it and did not like it because of the scepter attk was very boring but GW2 1 attk on most classes is more then just dmg most of them are combo with in them self becoming 2 to 3 different attks in one. Some go even as far as having combo finisher on them or tie in effect with unitys. They are similar in that you can make it auto but in GW2 you can make any 1-5 skill auto if you wanted to.

I guess we have another alien on these forums. Auto attack in GW1 was just swinging your sword looking at some small damage numbers above the head of your target, nothing else, similar to most other mmos. And of course vastly different to GW2.

The only difference is that the autoattack in GW2 is somewhat stronger, mostly because of the fact that all the other skills have ridiculous cooldowns, whereas in GW1 you’d mostly use skills rather than autoattack.

maddoctor.2738:

Jski.6180:

I am not sure how Auto-attack was in GW1 that well i only played 2hr of it and did not like it because of the scepter attk was very boring but GW2 1 attk on most classes is more then just dmg most of them are combo with in them self becoming 2 to 3 different attks in one. Some go even as far as having combo finisher on them or tie in effect with unitys. They are similar in that you can make it auto but in GW2 you can make any 1-5 skill auto if you wanted to.

I guess we have another alien on these forums. Auto attack in GW1 was just swinging your sword looking at some small damage numbers above the head of your target, nothing else, similar to most other mmos. And of course vastly different to GW2.

That what i though ya i do not think there is one 1 skill in GW2 that dose not have more then just dmg on it. The 1 skill in GW2 is more about being fast on cd and windup this dose not make it an auto attk it makes it a primarily use skill.

@gimmethegepgun.1284
What class because there are classes with weapons on very low cd and there are classes with weapons on very long cd.

Jski.6180:

The 1 skill in GW2 is more about being fast on cd and windup this dose not make it an auto attk it makes it a primarily use skill.

That everybody puts on auto-attack.

Jski.6180:

maddoctor.2738:

Jski.6180:

I am not sure how Auto-attack was in GW1 that well i only played 2hr of it and did not like it because of the scepter attk was very boring but GW2 1 attk on most classes is more then just dmg most of them are combo with in them self becoming 2 to 3 different attks in one. Some go even as far as having combo finisher on them or tie in effect with unitys. They are similar in that you can make it auto but in GW2 you can make any 1-5 skill auto if you wanted to.

I guess we have another alien on these forums. Auto attack in GW1 was just swinging your sword looking at some small damage numbers above the head of your target, nothing else, similar to most other mmos. And of course vastly different to GW2.

That what i though ya i do not think there is one 1 skill in GW2 that dose not have more then just dmg on it. The 1 skill in GW2 is more about being fast on cd and windup this dose not make it an auto attk it makes it a primarily use skill.

No, actually, the fact that it is the only thing you can do due to everything else being on cooldown makes it an autoattack.

Shootsfoot.9276:

Jski.6180:

The 1 skill in GW2 is more about being fast on cd and windup this dose not make it an auto attk it makes it a primarily use skill.

That everybody puts on auto-attack.

What do you not get about primarily used skill? A staff on ele water skill 1 is a heal and dmg it defines the weapon and the element. A sword on a guardian is a 3 hit combo leading into an cone shame aoe attk defining that swords are aggressive on guardian. A hammer on that same guardian is a 3 hit combo that leads into an ground effect buff that give ppl protection THAT defines the weapon as as more def type. There is a vast difference between a primary use skill and an auto attk.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

No, actually, the fact that it is the only thing you can do due to everything else being on cooldown makes it an autoattack.

So wait cd is the only thing that defines an auto attk? Mighty Blow 5 sec Orb of Light 3 sec Smite 6 sec Zealot’s Flurry 6 sec Fan of Fire 6 sec Cyclone Axe 6 sec Brutal Shot 3 sec Maul 6 sec etc..

clay.7849:

DrixTrix.7168:

clay.7849:

digiowl.9620:

DrixTrix.7168:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

TwoBit.5903:

To be fair, the designers probably didn’t know what they were getting into when they decided to do “active combat.”

They clearly didnt. Despite the fact that they added jumping and dodging and swimming, this game is still based too much around skills to be considered “action” combat.

Now all we have is a poor excuse for either.

In your opinion. I actually quite like the combat.

Some people prefer shallow easy combat. That, however, is not something for a developer to be proud of.

The fact that’s it’s shallow is ALSO your opinion. I don’t particularly find the combat shallow. And I think Anet has made a game to be proud of. Of course that’s also just an opinion.

Nope, wrong again. By definition the combat is shallow. Maybe you should read up on that.

i think it is shallow if you don’t make use of combo fields and all the other abilities extra effects, our definition of shallow is very different, and thats what it comes down to, not facts, opinions.

There are a few fields that do interesting things when comboed, the rest simply do the same old boons and conditions in larger amounts.

Combos rarely add depth to the game as they are very seldom more beneficial than just auto attacking. As a side effect they are certainly cool, but purposely setting up a combo for its effects is very useless 9/10 times compared to just auto attacking.

are we talking PvE here because i sure as hell view them as beneficial, i can have 80-90% chaos armor uptime, projectiles for extra damage, confusion stacking (more pvp as not very good in pve), retaliation on distortion for big attacks…..

i’m sorry but i don’t think there seldom beneficial at all i think they are extremely beneficial, granted i do more pvp and wvw than anything but ask anyone in this setting worth there salt and they will say your not playing optimally and not nearly as effectively as you can be and should be.

---

all this talk about Facts and opinions is making me chuckle, you say some things are facts some of you yet there is no data to back up your facts, really its just your opinion but as you stated it was a fact and when asked to provide the proper information as to how and why it is a fact, all you have is an opinion, so not fact at all, really, just like my paragraphs above, there opinions, not facts as to why there not seldom beneficial.

however i could argue the point that it is fact because it happens in the game and is hard coded to it, theres a loose reason and data as to why there beneficial and the truth is they give extra damage etc, so you aren’t playing optimally….

see what i mean?

Give me specific examples, in PvE (which is what we are talking about), about what you think is better than direct damage, and I will do the math to prove you wrong.

Math is good for stuff like that.

Well personally I can’t as I said in my first post and since I am on about PVp and wvw as that’s what I do, now you may be talking about Pve but you can’t rule out PVp and wvw combat it’s very much the same systems in general and an integral part of the game, so I can’t and won’t give an example in Pve as It would be false or based out off my kitten

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Jski.6180:

maddoctor.2738:

Jski.6180:

I am not sure how Auto-attack was in GW1 that well i only played 2hr of it and did not like it because of the scepter attk was very boring but GW2 1 attk on most classes is more then just dmg most of them are combo with in them self becoming 2 to 3 different attks in one. Some go even as far as having combo finisher on them or tie in effect with unitys. They are similar in that you can make it auto but in GW2 you can make any 1-5 skill auto if you wanted to.

I guess we have another alien on these forums. Auto attack in GW1 was just swinging your sword looking at some small damage numbers above the head of your target, nothing else, similar to most other mmos. And of course vastly different to GW2.

That what i though ya i do not think there is one 1 skill in GW2 that dose not have more then just dmg on it. The 1 skill in GW2 is more about being fast on cd and windup this dose not make it an auto attk it makes it a primarily use skill.

No, actually, the fact that it is the only thing you can do due to everything else being on cooldown makes it an autoattack.

If that skill1 attack had a cooldown then it would result in some cases for a player to be locked without access to any skills, the alternative for other games is to make a simple little-damaging attack available for those cases, that’s not the same as having a “proper” skill as your skill1.

maddoctor.2738:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Jski.6180:

maddoctor.2738:

Jski.6180:

I am not sure how Auto-attack was in GW1 that well i only played 2hr of it and did not like it because of the scepter attk was very boring but GW2 1 attk on most classes is more then just dmg most of them are combo with in them self becoming 2 to 3 different attks in one. Some go even as far as having combo finisher on them or tie in effect with unitys. They are similar in that you can make it auto but in GW2 you can make any 1-5 skill auto if you wanted to.

I guess we have another alien on these forums. Auto attack in GW1 was just swinging your sword looking at some small damage numbers above the head of your target, nothing else, similar to most other mmos. And of course vastly different to GW2.

That what i though ya i do not think there is one 1 skill in GW2 that dose not have more then just dmg on it. The 1 skill in GW2 is more about being fast on cd and windup this dose not make it an auto attk it makes it a primarily use skill.

No, actually, the fact that it is the only thing you can do due to everything else being on cooldown makes it an autoattack.

If that skill1 attack had a cooldown then it would result in some cases for a player to be locked without access to any skills, the alternative for other games is to make a simple little-damaging attack available for those cases, that’s not the same as having a “proper” skill as your skill1.

Correct. And instead of making a little-damaging attack, they made a poorly-damaging cooldownless 1 skill that is by default on autocast. Totally different.
And the only reason that the damage is as “good” as it is is because they gave everything else pointlessly long cooldowns, so with higher damage, slightly flashier autoattacks, it’s slightly less monotonous to autoattack them to death.

clay.7849:

Nope, wrong again. By definition the combat is shallow. Maybe you should read up on that.

I am shocked – SHOCKED! – to find Mr. Mopey in yet another topic trying argue for the sake of arguing. I’m as equally shocked – SHOCKED! – that Mr. Mopey takes views his own opinion to be the standard by which all facts are measured.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

maddoctor.2738:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Jski.6180:

maddoctor.2738:

Jski.6180:

I am not sure how Auto-attack was in GW1 that well i only played 2hr of it and did not like it because of the scepter attk was very boring but GW2 1 attk on most classes is more then just dmg most of them are combo with in them self becoming 2 to 3 different attks in one. Some go even as far as having combo finisher on them or tie in effect with unitys. They are similar in that you can make it auto but in GW2 you can make any 1-5 skill auto if you wanted to.

I guess we have another alien on these forums. Auto attack in GW1 was just swinging your sword looking at some small damage numbers above the head of your target, nothing else, similar to most other mmos. And of course vastly different to GW2.

That what i though ya i do not think there is one 1 skill in GW2 that dose not have more then just dmg on it. The 1 skill in GW2 is more about being fast on cd and windup this dose not make it an auto attk it makes it a primarily use skill.

No, actually, the fact that it is the only thing you can do due to everything else being on cooldown makes it an autoattack.

If that skill1 attack had a cooldown then it would result in some cases for a player to be locked without access to any skills, the alternative for other games is to make a simple little-damaging attack available for those cases, that’s not the same as having a “proper” skill as your skill1.

Correct. And instead of making a little-damaging attack, they made a poorly-damaging cooldownless 1 skill that is by default on autocast.
And the only reason that the damage is as “good” as it is is because they gave everything else pointlessly long cooldowns, so with higher damage, slightly flashier autoattacks, it’s slightly less monotonous to autoattack them to death.

You can put any skill on autocast that more of an artifact of the player to put it on the 1 skill and not on any other. Even most 1 skills do have cd because its a combo that takes 3 attks each ranging from 1/2 sec to cast to a 1 sec. In effect you cant do the last hit of the 1 skill comb until you wait for the first 2 hits that must land before the next can go off. 1 skill in GW2 dose have a cd but it switch its attk each time you use it so it seems as if your doing the same skill over and over.

Jski.6180:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

maddoctor.2738:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Jski.6180:

maddoctor.2738:

Jski.6180:

I am not sure how Auto-attack was in GW1 that well i only played 2hr of it and did not like it because of the scepter attk was very boring but GW2 1 attk on most classes is more then just dmg most of them are combo with in them self becoming 2 to 3 different attks in one. Some go even as far as having combo finisher on them or tie in effect with unitys. They are similar in that you can make it auto but in GW2 you can make any 1-5 skill auto if you wanted to.

I guess we have another alien on these forums. Auto attack in GW1 was just swinging your sword looking at some small damage numbers above the head of your target, nothing else, similar to most other mmos. And of course vastly different to GW2.

That what i though ya i do not think there is one 1 skill in GW2 that dose not have more then just dmg on it. The 1 skill in GW2 is more about being fast on cd and windup this dose not make it an auto attk it makes it a primarily use skill.

No, actually, the fact that it is the only thing you can do due to everything else being on cooldown makes it an autoattack.

If that skill1 attack had a cooldown then it would result in some cases for a player to be locked without access to any skills, the alternative for other games is to make a simple little-damaging attack available for those cases, that’s not the same as having a “proper” skill as your skill1.

Correct. And instead of making a little-damaging attack, they made a poorly-damaging cooldownless 1 skill that is by default on autocast.
And the only reason that the damage is as “good” as it is is because they gave everything else pointlessly long cooldowns, so with higher damage, slightly flashier autoattacks, it’s slightly less monotonous to autoattack them to death.

You can put any skill on autocast that more of an artifact of the player to put it on the 1 skill and not on any other. Even most 1 skills do have cd because its a combo that takes 3 attks each ranging from 1/2 sec to cast to a 1 sec. In effect you cant do the last hit of the 1 skill comb until you wait for the first 2 hits that must land before the next can go off. 1 skill in GW2 dose have a cd but it switch its attk each time you use it so it seems as if your doing the same skill over and over.

And someone would put another skill that isn’t For Great Justice on autoattack… why?
And no, it doesn’t have a cooldown. If your attack doesn’t hit you immediately get to do it again (except some of the third hits).

gimmethegepgun.1284:

maddoctor.2738:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Jski.6180:

maddoctor.2738:

Jski.6180:

I am not sure how Auto-attack was in GW1 that well i only played 2hr of it and did not like it because of the scepter attk was very boring but GW2 1 attk on most classes is more then just dmg most of them are combo with in them self becoming 2 to 3 different attks in one. Some go even as far as having combo finisher on them or tie in effect with unitys. They are similar in that you can make it auto but in GW2 you can make any 1-5 skill auto if you wanted to.

I guess we have another alien on these forums. Auto attack in GW1 was just swinging your sword looking at some small damage numbers above the head of your target, nothing else, similar to most other mmos. And of course vastly different to GW2.

That what i though ya i do not think there is one 1 skill in GW2 that dose not have more then just dmg on it. The 1 skill in GW2 is more about being fast on cd and windup this dose not make it an auto attk it makes it a primarily use skill.

No, actually, the fact that it is the only thing you can do due to everything else being on cooldown makes it an autoattack.

If that skill1 attack had a cooldown then it would result in some cases for a player to be locked without access to any skills, the alternative for other games is to make a simple little-damaging attack available for those cases, that’s not the same as having a “proper” skill as your skill1.

Correct. And instead of making a little-damaging attack, they made a poorly-damaging cooldownless 1 skill that is by default on autocast. Totally different.
And the only reason that the damage is as “good” as it is is because they gave everything else pointlessly long cooldowns, so with higher damage, slightly flashier autoattacks, it’s slightly less monotonous to autoattack them to death.

You are exaggerating about the cooldowns, they arent’ so high that you have toattack more than a two-three times on most cases without access to other skills. Also, weapon swap / attunement swap.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Jski.6180:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

maddoctor.2738:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Jski.6180:

maddoctor.2738:

Jski.6180:

I am not sure how Auto-attack was in GW1 that well i only played 2hr of it and did not like it because of the scepter attk was very boring but GW2 1 attk on most classes is more then just dmg most of them are combo with in them self becoming 2 to 3 different attks in one. Some go even as far as having combo finisher on them or tie in effect with unitys. They are similar in that you can make it auto but in GW2 you can make any 1-5 skill auto if you wanted to.

I guess we have another alien on these forums. Auto attack in GW1 was just swinging your sword looking at some small damage numbers above the head of your target, nothing else, similar to most other mmos. And of course vastly different to GW2.

That what i though ya i do not think there is one 1 skill in GW2 that dose not have more then just dmg on it. The 1 skill in GW2 is more about being fast on cd and windup this dose not make it an auto attk it makes it a primarily use skill.

No, actually, the fact that it is the only thing you can do due to everything else being on cooldown makes it an autoattack.

If that skill1 attack had a cooldown then it would result in some cases for a player to be locked without access to any skills, the alternative for other games is to make a simple little-damaging attack available for those cases, that’s not the same as having a “proper” skill as your skill1.

Correct. And instead of making a little-damaging attack, they made a poorly-damaging cooldownless 1 skill that is by default on autocast.
And the only reason that the damage is as “good” as it is is because they gave everything else pointlessly long cooldowns, so with higher damage, slightly flashier autoattacks, it’s slightly less monotonous to autoattack them to death.

You can put any skill on autocast that more of an artifact of the player to put it on the 1 skill and not on any other. Even most 1 skills do have cd because its a combo that takes 3 attks each ranging from 1/2 sec to cast to a 1 sec. In effect you cant do the last hit of the 1 skill comb until you wait for the first 2 hits that must land before the next can go off. 1 skill in GW2 dose have a cd but it switch its attk each time you use it so it seems as if your doing the same skill over and over.

And someone would put another skill that isn’t For Great Justice on autoattack… why?
And no, it doesn’t have a cooldown. If your attack doesn’t hit you immediately get to do it again (except some of the third hits).

You CAN put for great justice on auto and ppl do to make sure they do not forget to use it.
Each attk from the 3 hit comb has a cd you just do not see it and it only goes on cd if you hit something with it. Hammer is what i know so i will use it. Hammer Swing if the first skill 1/2 sec cast time if it hits it goes on cd then you get the ability Hammer Bash this is another 1/2 sec cast but dose more dmg because its a must one thing happen before the next then this goes on cd too a far longer one then the first then you have Symbol of Protection a 1 1/4 sec windup that dose a great deal more dmg and apply an effect on the ground after you use this it too goes on cd. At the same time Hammer Bash comes off CD and it start over.

maddoctor.2738:

You are exaggerating about the cooldowns, they arent’ so high that you have toattack more than a two-three times on most cases without access to other skills.

Except considering that on most weapons there is only 1 skill (#2) that is meant for dealing damage other than the autoattack and everything else is situational, you’ll spend most of your time spamming 1. Or setting it to autoattack. Or just not changing the autoattack settings because the game by default sets 1 to autoattack.

maddoctor.2738:

Also, weapon swap.

So, what you’re saying is, switch weapons so that you don’t have to continue wasting your time autoattacking.

Jski.6180:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Jski.6180:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

maddoctor.2738:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Jski.6180:

maddoctor.2738:

Jski.6180:

I am not sure how Auto-attack was in GW1 that well i only played 2hr of it and did not like it because of the scepter attk was very boring but GW2 1 attk on most classes is more then just dmg most of them are combo with in them self becoming 2 to 3 different attks in one. Some go even as far as having combo finisher on them or tie in effect with unitys. They are similar in that you can make it auto but in GW2 you can make any 1-5 skill auto if you wanted to.

I guess we have another alien on these forums. Auto attack in GW1 was just swinging your sword looking at some small damage numbers above the head of your target, nothing else, similar to most other mmos. And of course vastly different to GW2.

That what i though ya i do not think there is one 1 skill in GW2 that dose not have more then just dmg on it. The 1 skill in GW2 is more about being fast on cd and windup this dose not make it an auto attk it makes it a primarily use skill.

No, actually, the fact that it is the only thing you can do due to everything else being on cooldown makes it an autoattack.

If that skill1 attack had a cooldown then it would result in some cases for a player to be locked without access to any skills, the alternative for other games is to make a simple little-damaging attack available for those cases, that’s not the same as having a “proper” skill as your skill1.

Correct. And instead of making a little-damaging attack, they made a poorly-damaging cooldownless 1 skill that is by default on autocast.
And the only reason that the damage is as “good” as it is is because they gave everything else pointlessly long cooldowns, so with higher damage, slightly flashier autoattacks, it’s slightly less monotonous to autoattack them to death.

You can put any skill on autocast that more of an artifact of the player to put it on the 1 skill and not on any other. Even most 1 skills do have cd because its a combo that takes 3 attks each ranging from 1/2 sec to cast to a 1 sec. In effect you cant do the last hit of the 1 skill comb until you wait for the first 2 hits that must land before the next can go off. 1 skill in GW2 dose have a cd but it switch its attk each time you use it so it seems as if your doing the same skill over and over.

And someone would put another skill that isn’t For Great Justice on autoattack… why?
And no, it doesn’t have a cooldown. If your attack doesn’t hit you immediately get to do it again (except some of the third hits).

You CAN put for great justice on auto and ppl do to make sure they do not forget to use it.
Each attk from the 3 hit comb has a cd you just do not see it and it only goes on cd if you hit something with it. Hammer is what i know so i will use it. Hammer Swing if the first skill 1/2 sec cast time if it hits it goes on cd then you get the ability Hammer Bash this is another 1/2 sec cast but dose more dmg because its a must one thing happen before the next then this goes on cd too a far longer one then the first then you have Symbol of Protection a 1 1/4 sec windup that dose a great deal more dmg and apply an effect on the ground after you use this it too goes on cd. At the same time Hammer Bash comes off CD and it start over.

That’s WHY I said FGJ, it’s just about the ONLY skill in the game that’s worth putting on autocast that isn’t the autoattack.

And no, a cooldown would imply that you have access to it exactly when you want it, so long as it is finished recharging. Since they are gated behind other attacks, it’s not a cooldown.
Regardless of that, the only thing making it a “skill” does is make the autoattack a little less boring, a little better looking, and a little more useful.

Jski.6180:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Jski.6180:

The 1 skill in GW2 is more about being fast on cd and windup this dose not make it an auto attk it makes it a primarily use skill.

That everybody puts on auto-attack.

What do you not get about primarily used skill? A staff on ele water skill 1 is a heal and dmg it defines the weapon and the element. A sword on a guardian is a 3 hit combo leading into an cone shame aoe attk defining that swords are aggressive on guardian. A hammer on that same guardian is a 3 hit combo that leads into an ground effect buff that give ppl protection THAT defines the weapon as as more def type. There is a vast difference between a primary use skill and an auto attk.

Well, to be honest, your arguments are so all over the place, it’s hard to “get” anything out of your posts.

But since you’ve started taking the insult path, I’m just going to walk away from you now.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

That’s WHY I said FGJ, it’s just about the ONLY skill in the game that’s worth putting on autocast that isn’t the autoattack.

And no, a cooldown would imply that you have access to it exactly when you want it, so long as it is finished recharging. Since they are gated behind other attacks, it’s not a cooldown.
Regardless of that, the only thing making it a “skill” does is make the autoattack a little less boring, a little better looking, and a little more useful.

The same goes for all other skills too, all skills work the same way, they are there to allow the player to do something other than swinging a sword around, making the combat experience less better and better looking.

For example the Fireball skills in GW1 and Fireball in GW2 are the exact same skill in what they do, aoe damage from a little ball of fire that explodes, the difference being that the GW2 version can be cast while on the move and the fact that the GW1 version also has a cooldown. Same goes for too many skills to count, most even with similar names between the two games, and similar skills exist in all games, skills that look like auto attacks but aren’t just because they have a cd.

“Yes I did, number one ability on your bar does the exact same thing as all the other MMO’s Colin Johanson was seemingly trying to ridicule with his quoted sentence. GW2 has the very same thing, I don’t get it why.”

And to get back to my original post, answer to the above, skill1 in GW2 works the same way as all other skills, it only doesn’t have a cooldown, it doesn’t make combat more shallow, neither is “just a swing” as the discussion of the first page.

With non-rooting attacks, the dodge mechanic and the lack the classic MMO defined roles, combat is a heck of a lot more exciting than standing still and just swinging your sword while it’s someone else’s job to heal you up.

It’s the dynamic vs static/role fighting style that I believe Colin was alluding to. After all in a fantasy setting MMO, swinging the sword is the traditional way to defeat a critter or did you expect we would be hugging it out?

maddoctor.2738:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

That’s WHY I said FGJ, it’s just about the ONLY skill in the game that’s worth putting on autocast that isn’t the autoattack.

And no, a cooldown would imply that you have access to it exactly when you want it, so long as it is finished recharging. Since they are gated behind other attacks, it’s not a cooldown.
Regardless of that, the only thing making it a “skill” does is make the autoattack a little less boring, a little better looking, and a little more useful.

The same goes for all other skills too, all skills work the same way, they are there to allow the player to do something other than swinging a sword around, making the combat experience less better and better looking.

For example the Fireball skills in GW1 and Fireball in GW2 are the exact same skill in what they do, aoe damage from a little ball of fire that explodes, the difference being that the GW2 version can be cast while on the move and the fact that the GW1 version also has a cooldown. Same goes for too many skills to count, most even with similar names between the two games, and similar skills exist in all games, skills that look like auto attacks but aren’t just because they have a cd.

“Yes I did, number one ability on your bar does the exact same thing as all the other MMO’s Colin Johanson was seemingly trying to ridicule with his quoted sentence. GW2 has the very same thing, I don’t get it why.”

And to get back to my original post, answer to the above, skill1 in GW2 works the same way as all other skills, it only doesn’t have a cooldown, it doesn’t make combat more shallow, neither is “just a swing” as the discussion of the first page.

And the Fireball skill in GW1 actually HURTS, because it is on a cooldown, has a long cast time, and costs energy. They are similar in how they look and what they do, but not similar at all in usage. In GW1 you select a time and place that is best to use it when it’s available, and you make sure to not overly drain your resources by wasting them, because they are expensive. In GW2, you spam them everywhere because they are 0 cooldown 0 cost. They are not at all the same.
What separates skills from autoattacks is that skills have COST to them. They have a recharge and/or they use your resource pool. There is reason to not use them, to save them for when it is more useful, unlike an autoattack (barring on-attack penalties that can be applied to you/them).
GW2 skill 1 has no cost, no cooldown, no inherent penalty for usage, and every single mainhand weapon has one. It is an autoattack.

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

TwoBit.5903:

To be fair, the designers probably didn’t know what they were getting into when they decided to do “active combat.”

They clearly didnt. Despite the fact that they added jumping and dodging and swimming, this game is still based too much around skills to be considered “action” combat.

Now all we have is a poor excuse for either.

In your opinion. I actually quite like the combat.

Some people prefer shallow easy combat. That, however, is not something for a developer to be proud of.

Its not an action game, or a FPS, its an MMO.
Its designed to have many people in small areas, with potential latency at each end…..

That places limitations on what can be achieved.

My opinion is that its the best combat in an MMO to date. Thats not sayign I woudl not love a true MMO with jedi-knight or PoP style combat, I would, and someday maybe, but for now GW2 combat is a massive step up from the norm.

And to go back to teh OP, I’m not sure what else you expect to do with a sword? I mean, its kind of designed for swinging…. Not really sure what you are trying to say to be honest, what were you expecting?

DrixTrix.7168:

TwoBit.5903:

There’s moving, but it’s not calculated. Dodging so awkward in that it’s not truly dodging but an invincibility toggle + movement; it feels contrived and often overpowered. Skills are balanced via cooldowns, not animations windups, or timing. Players can move while attack in any direction. Seems like a good thing until you realize that it makes both movement and attack rather spammy. I could go on.

so if you dodged you would want to still be hit? if you dodge, you dodge you can also ’’fake’’ people into dodging with some wind up skills, and what games balance has been based around animation wind ups?

so you would prefer to be rooted and use combat skills in some circumstances? i wouldn’t….that then would be incredible inactive, and you can attack while turned away from someone in most cases, strafing needs to be strafed if you go too 90* you can’t cast (auto atleast) also if you are turned away from someone and press #1 (thief auto dagger based on) then you wont hit anything and you miss everything, if your angled wrong you wont cleave everything and so on…

what is so inactive about that?

I want positioning and direction to matter. Dodging anywhere for invincibility contrives positioning. And you don’t need to root people to fix melee, just incorporate movement into the attack itself in a fixed pattern. There would be more depth to those skills as positioning and aiming would matter more, because letting players move every which way removes depth of positioning and execution to those skills. Not to mention letting players move in any direction while attack makes balancing the actual execution of those skills exponentially more difficult, meaning they’ll resort to balance damage rather than actual execution of the skill.

My main gripe with the activeness is that it’s incredibly shallow. It provides no dilemmas, nor is there any skill involved. The combat is only active in the most superficial sense, but apparently if people are moving and dodging mindless without any bit of perception and skill then that’s enough for the designers to pat themselves on the back. Spam is enough evidence, I suppose.

MeveM.7913:

“I swung a sword, I swung a sword again Hey! I swung it again, that’s great”

Do you remember the teaser for GW2 before it’s release? Where Colin Johanson said the above line?, well, isn’t that exactly what we’re doing in the current model?

With all the class imbalances going the class sections are filled with weapon/ability comparison threads which all basically say that a lot of weapons have 1 ability that deals a lot of damage, the others are utility and actually deal less damage than the auto attack. Wait what? Did I say auto attack? Yes I did, number one ability on your bar does the exact same thing as all the other MMO’s Colin Johanson was seemingly trying to ridicule with his quoted sentence. GW2 has the very same thing, I don’t get it why.

Why is there a auto attack and why does it deal more damage than most special moves you can pull off?

I’ll give you my main class as an example, Ranger.

GS: Number two is the main damage dealer, whilst it’s on CD it’s better to auto attack until it’s back off cooldown than it is to use Swoop or Hilt Bash. (Yes I know they’re utility abilities, still doesn’t get us away from Colin’s quote.)

Shortbow: Auto attacks deal more damage than any of the other four abilities, I find myself on some bosses able to go AFK while my Ranger is auto attacking the boss. Auto attack even continues if the mob runs out of range and back into range!

There’s even an option in the option menu to turn the auto attack off so instead you can feel useful slamming your face on the number one key over and over.

Bottom line is, why did one of the main Arenanet dev’s come out with such a silly statement and not actually follow up on it? Reminds me of politicians that tell us about all the wonderful things they will do for us if we vote for them, well we bought your game Colin, why aren’t you keeping your word?

Play an engineer.

Solved.

lethlora.1320:

My favorite part was where the OP took a quote out of context to make it sound like something worse and then tried to tell us who the politicians are. Would read again.

IMHO the quote is ambiguous and everyone in this thread is putting their own spin on it.

clay.7849:

No, I don’t need to find a definition we both agree on. I need to find a definition that experts agree on. I think we can consider the Penny Arcade people to have more expertise in this field than us? What about Ensign? He has a character named after him in GW1 and has provided more insight into both games than either of us – should we consider his word to hold merit?

There are WAY more people with expertise in this kind of thing that agree this game’s combat is very shallow than agree with you. I can reference them all if you like, again. But, usually when I reference these kinds of things, you just leave the argument and forget about it the next time.

O.o

Vayne.8563:

Experienced people have all sorts of opinions on things, but they don’t all agree with each other. I’d say Ravious is pretty experienced and he didn’t think Guild Wars 2’s combat was shallow.

Which exactly why his appeal to authority is a classic fallacy. Just because someone has experience, or is a professional in something doesn’t mean their opinions are more valid. They’re not. Because there’s no consensus on this subject matter between “experienced” people, Clay was just making a fallacy.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html

maddoctor.2738:

Like it or not, it’s not similar to auto-attacks of other games in any way or form, what did you want? For skill1 to also have a cooldown and at some time have no skills to use? Or.. add a useless auto attack like in Guild Wars 1?

I don’t know which profession you play but at the end of the day skill1 is just matter of doing dmg rather than doing something special / something opportunist.

Which ability does the most damage regardless of any other factors is not all that relevant to discussions of GW2’s combat. Many of the abilities that people have complained about balance-wise are not the main attack abilities. Heartseeker thieves, Confusion from Mesmers(shatter, scepter 3, glams), Guardian Retal(multiple abilities), D/D Eles(boons and combo fields), and so on.

The only time I am sitting still spamming 1 is on some of the too-easy meta bosses. Normally, my combat experience is mobile and reactionary.