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"I swung a sword, I swung a sword again..."

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Posted by: clay.7849

clay.7849

To be fair, the designers probably didn’t know what they were getting into when they decided to do “active combat.”

They clearly didnt. Despite the fact that they added jumping and dodging and swimming, this game is still based too much around skills to be considered “action” combat.

Now all we have is a poor excuse for either.

In your opinion. I actually quite like the combat.

Some people prefer shallow easy combat. That, however, is not something for a developer to be proud of.

The fact that’s it’s shallow is ALSO your opinion. I don’t particularly find the combat shallow. And I think Anet has made a game to be proud of. Of course that’s also just an opinion.

Nope, wrong again. By definition the combat is shallow. Maybe you should read up on that.

i think it is shallow if you don’t make use of combo fields and all the other abilities extra effects, our definition of shallow is very different, and thats what it comes down to, not facts, opinions.

There are a few fields that do interesting things when comboed, the rest simply do the same old boons and conditions in larger amounts.

Combos rarely add depth to the game as they are very seldom more beneficial than just auto attacking. As a side effect they are certainly cool, but purposely setting up a combo for its effects is very useless 9/10 times compared to just auto attacking.

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Posted by: clay.7849

clay.7849

To be fair, the designers probably didn’t know what they were getting into when they decided to do “active combat.”

They clearly didnt. Despite the fact that they added jumping and dodging and swimming, this game is still based too much around skills to be considered “action” combat.

Now all we have is a poor excuse for either.

In your opinion. I actually quite like the combat.

Some people prefer shallow easy combat. That, however, is not something for a developer to be proud of.

The fact that’s it’s shallow is ALSO your opinion. I don’t particularly find the combat shallow. And I think Anet has made a game to be proud of. Of course that’s also just an opinion.

Nope, wrong again. By definition the combat is shallow. Maybe you should read up on that.

Actually, first you’d have to find an acceptable definition of shallow that we can both agree on. Then from there we could discuss whether or not this combat is shallow.

I actually think combat in Guild Wars 1 was more shallow than this. Builds were not. Combat itself was.

No, I don’t need to find a definition we both agree on. I need to find a definition that experts agree on. I think we can consider the Penny Arcade people to have more expertise in this field than us? What about Ensign? He has a character named after him in GW1 and has provided more insight into both games than either of us – should we consider his word to hold merit?

There are WAY more people with expertise in this kind of thing that agree this game’s combat is very shallow than agree with you. I can reference them all if you like, again. But, usually when I reference these kinds of things, you just leave the argument and forget about it the next time.

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Posted by: clay.7849

clay.7849

In spite of that, we’ve found some really great combos to use as a guild. I love putting down a chaos storm and giving everyone chaos armor briefly, or getting confounding bolts out of it. It’s very cool stuff.

And not more beneficial than just auto attacking.

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

@Clay

What I like is how many times you say I’m “wrong” in your posts. You have accused me in the past of saying you’re wrong, except I almost never say it.

So now you want to bring in expertise, people more experienced to define things. Yet when I point out I’m more experienced that you, you dismiss it.

Experienced people have all sorts of opinions on things, but they don’t all agree with each other. I’d say Ravious is pretty experienced and he didn’t think Guild Wars 2’s combat was shallow.

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Posted by: Buttercup.5871

Buttercup.5871

I’ll give you my main class as an example, Ranger.

GS: Number two is the main damage dealer, whilst it’s on CD it’s better to auto attack until it’s back off cooldown than it is to use Swoop or Hilt Bash. (Yes I know they’re utility abilities, still doesn’t get us away from Colin’s quote.)

Shortbow: Auto attacks deal more damage than any of the other four abilities, I find myself on some bosses able to go AFK while my Ranger is auto attacking the boss. Auto attack even continues if the mob runs out of range and back into range!

There’s even an option in the option menu to turn the auto attack off so instead you can feel useful slamming your face on the number one key over and over.

Bottom line is [insert huge statement based on the above examples]

Let’s look at those examples. Because based on those examples, you make some great claims.

Greatsword

As another poster said, just pressing 1 with your GS is a waste of dps. I use swoop (leap finisher) almost whenever it’s off cooldown; in fact, I probably use it much more than the 2 ability. You can dish out tons of damage by swooping through a combo field. Try and use ranged traps; basically, throw a ranged trap on the mob(s), and leap into your mob(s). You can even do this while you’re pounding on the mob, you don’t have to jump from outside the field. A fire bubble around is fantastic extra (aoe) damage, and it lasts relatively long as well [5 seconds, with a minimum of 328 damage per second, with an added (0.25 * your condition damage from gear) per second]. Additionally, in PvE, you can buy consumables from karma vendors that will give you, for example, a chaos field on demand that you can set off with swoop.
If you want to just “swing your sword”, be my guest. But there’s many more combinations out there that you might want to experiment with.

Shortbow

Your shortbow example is only valid if the boss fight requires you to stand still, all the other party members are alive at all times, the boss isn’t chasing you (so you don’t need cripple, #4 or evade/swiftness, #3), the boss doesn’t have self-heal abilities (ie. reduced heal from poison isn’t necessary, on #2), the boss doesn’t have interruptible high damage skills that your party members are suffering from (paralyze, #5) and you didn’t spec sufficient condition damage for poison (#2) or bleed – from you (#1) or your pet (#4) – to matter. Yea, then spamming 1 works. But the fact that you’re not pulling aggro at all is indicative that you’re not dealing enough damage, and you should consider changing your build, gear or your playstyle to do more damage.


By the way, this does not mean that I believe the ranger (main main as well) is on par with other classes (because it isns’t). It just means you shouldn’t just “swing your sword”. Especially if you’re a ranger.

(edited by Buttercup.5871)

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Posted by: ZenonSeth.5739

ZenonSeth.5739

“I swung a sword, I swung a sword again Hey! I swung it again, that’s great”

I don’t know what you’re talking about. My Warrior clearly wields an Axe/Axe or Axe/Shield, and my Thief wields a Dagger/Pistol. Not to mention my Engineer’s Flamethrower.

There’s no “I swung a sword” at all in my gameplay. ANet didn’t lie one bit.

Are ye laughin’ yet?

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Posted by: clay.7849

clay.7849

@Clay

What I like is how many times you say I’m “wrong” in your posts. You have accused me in the past of saying you’re wrong, except I almost never say it.

So now you want to bring in expertise, people more experienced to define things. Yet when I point out I’m more experienced that you, you dismiss it.

Experienced people have all sorts of opinions on things, but they don’t all agree with each other. I’d say Ravious is pretty experienced and he didn’t think Guild Wars 2’s combat was shallow.

That’s because this isn’t opinion, this is fact we are talking about. The depth of a game, not only has to do with different experiences that you can get out of the game, but how effective those experiences are.

In GW2, first, there isn’t much more than just direct damage and dodging. And, anything else, is really less effective than direct damage, which makes them irrelevant to the game’s depth.

These are all facts. You can have an opinion about a fact all you want, but you would be wrong.

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Posted by: Rising Dusk.2408

Rising Dusk.2408

Thank God for an auto-attack. I’d hate to be able to do nothing while I wait for my more powerful skills to come off of cooldown. That said, the combat of GW2 kicks butt, and I wouldn’t want a thing about it changed.

[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

@Clay

What I like is how many times you say I’m “wrong” in your posts. You have accused me in the past of saying you’re wrong, except I almost never say it.

So now you want to bring in expertise, people more experienced to define things. Yet when I point out I’m more experienced that you, you dismiss it.

Experienced people have all sorts of opinions on things, but they don’t all agree with each other. I’d say Ravious is pretty experienced and he didn’t think Guild Wars 2’s combat was shallow.

That’s because this isn’t opinion, this is fact we are talking about. The depth of a game, not only has to do with different experiences that you can get out of the game, but how effective those experiences are.

In GW2, first, there isn’t much more than just direct damage and dodging. And, anything else, is really less effective than direct damage, which makes them irrelevant to the game’s depth.

These are all facts. You can have an opinion about a fact all you want, but you would be wrong.

You used the word wrong again. I think you should stop using it, considering you accused me of saying you were wrong all the time. In reality you’re the one saying I’m wrong.

More to the point, the definition of depth is definitely up for grabs. Depth doesn’t have to mean what you think it means. And efficiency doesn’t have to be part of the depth discussion, because people DO have different play styles.

As long as you’re only interested in efficiency and nothing else, you’re playing a different game than I am. For example, some of the depth can come from using a “less efficient” profession and trying to do harder content with it.

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

What if…

What if there was no auto attack and only cool downs?
Attack animations could trigger to “look” like fighting where weapons clash and people move and swing without doing damage so it looks like sparing and “melee”, but the only way to do damage is by using cool downs.

Now imagine if the cool downs are a sort of form of paper rock scissors. If I use rock you better use rock to block me or paper to counter me quickly before my rock lands. If you use scissors then I crush you. Something more elaborate than that, but to effect that simple idea but expanded.

That is sort of what I had in mind when I heard about the combat in this game. Unfortunately it really is just auto attack and cool downs. In the games defense I am more active in my combat than normal, but sometimes it just feels like a giant kite fest or a forever circle strafe.

I do understand the limitations when it comes to group combat though and how hard it is to balance paper rock scissors with 3+ combatants.

Still if they could bring more skill and “sparing” to the table instead of just large damage cool downs for the most part.

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Posted by: Rakuren Kenshou.7689

Rakuren Kenshou.7689

They basically sold the game on Dynamic Events and they don’t let us do anything with it’s reward, it’s completely pointless to do dynamic events unless you’re leveling a alternative character

And here I thought doing we were doing them for fun since this is a game. Little did I know, every part of the game is supposed to be “worth it” because this is secretely a part time job that doesn’t pay any money.

Seriously, dynamic events are super cool. Does it matter if the rewards are useful? It’s XP, gold, and karma. If YOU don’t use them karma, then it’s your own fault for not managing your own resources.

If god gives you lemons, don’t just complain that lemons aren’t what you wanted. Turn those lemons into money or trade them in for armor or weapons.

Wait… I think I broke my analogy.

“I reject your reality and substitute my own.”

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Posted by: digiowl.9620

digiowl.9620

What if…

What if there was no auto attack and only cool downs?
Attack animations could trigger to “look” like fighting where weapons clash and people move and swing without doing damage so it looks like sparing and “melee”, but the only way to do damage is by using cool downs.

You got something like that in SWTOR. Looks fancy but other than that it is a classic style mmorpg.

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Posted by: Buttercup.5871

Buttercup.5871

In GW2, first, there isn’t much more than just direct damage and dodging.

What about cc? What about bunker builds strategically controlling points? Are we strictly talking about PvE in this thread?

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Posted by: clay.7849

clay.7849

In GW2, first, there isn’t much more than just direct damage and dodging.

What about cc? What about bunker builds strategically controlling points? Are we strictly talking about PvE in this thread?

I was talking specifically about PvE in that quote, yes.

Although, I would still say that PvP in GW2 still has much less depth than the PvP we saw in GW1 – and certainly is too shallow to be considered e-sport. But, that would be for other reasons that what I stated above.

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Posted by: Shootsfoot.9276

Shootsfoot.9276

@Clay

What I like is how many times you say I’m “wrong” in your posts. You have accused me in the past of saying you’re wrong, except I almost never say it.

So now you want to bring in expertise, people more experienced to define things. Yet when I point out I’m more experienced that you, you dismiss it.

Experienced people have all sorts of opinions on things, but they don’t all agree with each other. I’d say Ravious is pretty experienced and he didn’t think Guild Wars 2’s combat was shallow.

That’s because this isn’t opinion, this is fact we are talking about. The depth of a game, not only has to do with different experiences that you can get out of the game, but how effective those experiences are.

In GW2, first, there isn’t much more than just direct damage and dodging. And, anything else, is really less effective than direct damage, which makes them irrelevant to the game’s depth.

These are all facts. You can have an opinion about a fact all you want, but you would be wrong.

I’ll say one thing, you guys sure entertain me in what the two of you think are “fact” and “opinion.”

LOL

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

@Clay

What I like is how many times you say I’m “wrong” in your posts. You have accused me in the past of saying you’re wrong, except I almost never say it.

So now you want to bring in expertise, people more experienced to define things. Yet when I point out I’m more experienced that you, you dismiss it.

Experienced people have all sorts of opinions on things, but they don’t all agree with each other. I’d say Ravious is pretty experienced and he didn’t think Guild Wars 2’s combat was shallow.

That’s because this isn’t opinion, this is fact we are talking about. The depth of a game, not only has to do with different experiences that you can get out of the game, but how effective those experiences are.

In GW2, first, there isn’t much more than just direct damage and dodging. And, anything else, is really less effective than direct damage, which makes them irrelevant to the game’s depth.

These are all facts. You can have an opinion about a fact all you want, but you would be wrong.

I’ll say one thing, you guys sure entertain me in what the two of you think are “fact” and “opinion.”

LOL

We need our own podcast.

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Posted by: clay.7849

clay.7849

@Clay

What I like is how many times you say I’m “wrong” in your posts. You have accused me in the past of saying you’re wrong, except I almost never say it.

So now you want to bring in expertise, people more experienced to define things. Yet when I point out I’m more experienced that you, you dismiss it.

Experienced people have all sorts of opinions on things, but they don’t all agree with each other. I’d say Ravious is pretty experienced and he didn’t think Guild Wars 2’s combat was shallow.

That’s because this isn’t opinion, this is fact we are talking about. The depth of a game, not only has to do with different experiences that you can get out of the game, but how effective those experiences are.

In GW2, first, there isn’t much more than just direct damage and dodging. And, anything else, is really less effective than direct damage, which makes them irrelevant to the game’s depth.

These are all facts. You can have an opinion about a fact all you want, but you would be wrong.

I’ll say one thing, you guys sure entertain me in what the two of you think are “fact” and “opinion.”

LOL

We need our own podcast.

Actually, this isn’t a bad idea lol. I bet it would be pretty popular.

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

@Clay

What I like is how many times you say I’m “wrong” in your posts. You have accused me in the past of saying you’re wrong, except I almost never say it.

So now you want to bring in expertise, people more experienced to define things. Yet when I point out I’m more experienced that you, you dismiss it.

Experienced people have all sorts of opinions on things, but they don’t all agree with each other. I’d say Ravious is pretty experienced and he didn’t think Guild Wars 2’s combat was shallow.

That’s because this isn’t opinion, this is fact we are talking about. The depth of a game, not only has to do with different experiences that you can get out of the game, but how effective those experiences are.

In GW2, first, there isn’t much more than just direct damage and dodging. And, anything else, is really less effective than direct damage, which makes them irrelevant to the game’s depth.

These are all facts. You can have an opinion about a fact all you want, but you would be wrong.

I’ll say one thing, you guys sure entertain me in what the two of you think are “fact” and “opinion.”

LOL

We need our own podcast.

Actually, this isn’t a bad idea lol. I bet it would be pretty popular.

What would we call it? OMFG, this would be a riot. We’d argue for like an hour at a time.

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Posted by: clay.7849

clay.7849

@Clay

What I like is how many times you say I’m “wrong” in your posts. You have accused me in the past of saying you’re wrong, except I almost never say it.

So now you want to bring in expertise, people more experienced to define things. Yet when I point out I’m more experienced that you, you dismiss it.

Experienced people have all sorts of opinions on things, but they don’t all agree with each other. I’d say Ravious is pretty experienced and he didn’t think Guild Wars 2’s combat was shallow.

That’s because this isn’t opinion, this is fact we are talking about. The depth of a game, not only has to do with different experiences that you can get out of the game, but how effective those experiences are.

In GW2, first, there isn’t much more than just direct damage and dodging. And, anything else, is really less effective than direct damage, which makes them irrelevant to the game’s depth.

These are all facts. You can have an opinion about a fact all you want, but you would be wrong.

I’ll say one thing, you guys sure entertain me in what the two of you think are “fact” and “opinion.”

LOL

We need our own podcast.

Actually, this isn’t a bad idea lol. I bet it would be pretty popular.

What would we call it? OMFG, this would be a riot. We’d argue for like an hour at a time.

Lol, I dunno. But if I come up something good, I’ll let you know. You probably won’t like it. :P

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Posted by: Snow White.9680

Snow White.9680

Pottery Yarn

/15chars

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Posted by: Shootsfoot.9276

Shootsfoot.9276

Good, GOOOD….

…working just as planned so I can start my own podcast detailing why you’re both full of crap!

I’ll be rich, RICH I say!!!!! :P

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Posted by: clay.7849

clay.7849

Pottery Yarn

/15chars

You can do better than that. :P

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Posted by: clay.7849

clay.7849

Good, GOOOD….

…working just as planned so I can start my own podcast detailing why you’re both full of crap!

I’ll be rich, RICH I say!!!!! :P

Oh, so you’ll be the rationale middle of the road guy? Do you think you can pull it off?

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Posted by: Shootsfoot.9276

Shootsfoot.9276

Good, GOOOD….

…working just as planned so I can start my own podcast detailing why you’re both full of crap!

I’ll be rich, RICH I say!!!!! :P

Oh, so you’ll be the rationale middle of the road guy? Do you think you can pull it off?

Don’t be an idiot, of course I can.

I mean…

…I think it’s entirely possible to pull such a task off, kind sir!

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Posted by: clay.7849

clay.7849

Good, GOOOD….

…working just as planned so I can start my own podcast detailing why you’re both full of crap!

I’ll be rich, RICH I say!!!!! :P

Oh, so you’ll be the rationale middle of the road guy? Do you think you can pull it off?

Don’t be an idiot, of course I can.

I mean…

…I think it’s entirely possible to pull such a task off, kind sir!

Oh that made me laugh for realz!

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Posted by: Shootsfoot.9276

Shootsfoot.9276

Good, GOOOD….

…working just as planned so I can start my own podcast detailing why you’re both full of crap!

I’ll be rich, RICH I say!!!!! :P

Oh, so you’ll be the rationale middle of the road guy? Do you think you can pull it off?

Don’t be an idiot, of course I can.

I mean…

…I think it’s entirely possible to pull such a task off, kind sir!

Oh that made me laugh for realz!

:P

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Posted by: Shootsfoot.9276

Shootsfoot.9276

In GW2, first, there isn’t much more than just direct damage and dodging. And, anything else, is really less effective than direct damage, which makes them irrelevant to the game’s depth.

For the record, I agree with this statement 100%. I would like to see more effective CCs in PvE along with more effective support. I’m having a really hard time putting my finger on what is bothering me about the combat mechanics as a whole in this game, but I can give a few specific examples of what bugs me.

For instance, as a Guardian, I’m pretty disappointed that a focus makes a better shield than a….shield.

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

You DO know what the Shortbow attack 1 does right? All you need to know is here:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crossfire

On the matter of “auto-attacks”, no there aren’t any in Guild Wars 2, unlike other games, including Guild Wars 1 which are full of stand-still just “swing your sword” attacks. In other words, what was said in the vid has merit, because in Guild Wars 2 you don’t just swing your sword, you perform a skill, even if it can be used repeatedly much like what you can do with auto attacks in other games. However, they are different from auto attacks, because they always perform something, they always either apply boons/conditions or are finishers, have conditional modifiers or are part of chains.

Like Crossfire for example, I don’t know how you missed this, if you hit from behind, or the side, you apply bleeding, also it’s a 20% projectile finisher, even THIS skill has a lot more than pure damage, unlike an “auto-attack” in other games.

Of course there are skills which do very very little and are more like auto attacks, Longbow skill 1 for example, or Guardian Scepter 1 etc but they are few (maybe only these 3?) most mainhand weapons have interesting skill1 that are a lot different to a simple Auto attack.

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Posted by: emikochan.8504

emikochan.8504

Well AA doesn’t do much on Ele

Welcome to my world – http://emikochan13.wordpress.com

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

Well AA doesn’t do much on Ele

Staff skill1 attacks are way similar to skills we see in other games, not auto attacks, Fireball has aoe damage – actually it’s the same as Fireball in GW1, Stoning applies weakness, Water blast heals in the radious and Chain Lightning hits multiple targets, I could hardly say these attacks are in any way or form similar to “auto attacks” in GW1 or any other MMO, where they only do an animation and deal a bit of damage, nothing more.

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Posted by: clay.7849

clay.7849

You DO know what the Shortbow attack 1 does right? All you need to know is here:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crossfire

On the matter of “auto-attacks”, no there aren’t any in Guild Wars 2, unlike other games, including Guild Wars 1 which are full of stand-still just “swing your sword” attacks. In other words, what was said in the vid has merit, because in Guild Wars 2 you don’t just swing your sword, you perform a skill, even if it can be used repeatedly much like what you can do with auto attacks in other games. However, they are different from auto attacks, because they always perform something, they always either apply boons/conditions or are finishers, have conditional modifiers or are part of chains.

Like Crossfire for example, I don’t know how you missed this, if you hit from behind, or the side, you apply bleeding, also it’s a 20% projectile finisher, even THIS skill has a lot more than pure damage, unlike an “auto-attack” in other games.

Of course there are skills which do very very little and are more like auto attacks, Longbow skill 1 for example, or Guardian Scepter 1 etc but they are few (maybe only these 3?) most mainhand weapons have interesting skill1 that are a lot different to a simple Auto attack.

Lol, arguing semantics doesn’t mean that skill 1 isn’t an auto attack. Like it or not, it is.

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

You DO know what the Shortbow attack 1 does right? All you need to know is here:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crossfire

On the matter of “auto-attacks”, no there aren’t any in Guild Wars 2, unlike other games, including Guild Wars 1 which are full of stand-still just “swing your sword” attacks. In other words, what was said in the vid has merit, because in Guild Wars 2 you don’t just swing your sword, you perform a skill, even if it can be used repeatedly much like what you can do with auto attacks in other games. However, they are different from auto attacks, because they always perform something, they always either apply boons/conditions or are finishers, have conditional modifiers or are part of chains.

Like Crossfire for example, I don’t know how you missed this, if you hit from behind, or the side, you apply bleeding, also it’s a 20% projectile finisher, even THIS skill has a lot more than pure damage, unlike an “auto-attack” in other games.

Of course there are skills which do very very little and are more like auto attacks, Longbow skill 1 for example, or Guardian Scepter 1 etc but they are few (maybe only these 3?) most mainhand weapons have interesting skill1 that are a lot different to a simple Auto attack.

Lol, arguing semantics doesn’t mean that skill 1 isn’t an auto attack. Like it or not, it is.

Like it or not, it’s not similar to auto-attacks of other games in any way or form, what did you want? For skill1 to also have a cooldown and at some time have no skills to use? Or.. add a useless auto attack like in Guild Wars 1?

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Posted by: gimmethegepgun.1284

gimmethegepgun.1284

Well AA doesn’t do much on Ele

Staff skill1 attacks are way similar to skills we see in other games, not auto attacks, Fireball has aoe damage – actually it’s the same as Fireball in GW1, Stoning applies weakness, Water blast heals in the radious and Chain Lightning hits multiple targets, I could hardly say these attacks are in any way or form similar to “auto attacks” in GW1 or any other MMO, where they only do an animation and deal a bit of damage, nothing more.

And then you remember that there’s more weapons than just staff. Scepter: water’s autoattack is the worst in the game, having terrible damage and no special effects whatsoever, air’s is about the second worst since it’s dps still isn’t even that good if you let the whole thing fire, and in the meantime it prevents you from dodging or else you lose your damage output. Dagger: both fire and air are very plain, no chain, no special effect, and is basically just a regular melee attack that looks flashier.

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Posted by: Jski.6180

Jski.6180

Combat is as much as you want it to be if you just “swung a sword” as you put it over and over then you will just “swung a sword” there is no changing a person lack of imagination. You can make the combat more complex a great deal more complex by using your f1-f4 skills by making combo your unity with your weapons skills but using all 1-5 keys with the switch ability with the environment weapons and items and with the most complex option of playing with another human and taking advantages of there skills.
By all means if you want to play the game to its lowest denominator of combat you can but your going to find it boring that the ideal of the game you CAN play it the way you want but sadly most players do not seem to understand that as a player they are very boring to start with only games have force them to be something more.

Main : Jski Imaginary ELE (Necromancer)
Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
Server : FA

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Posted by: clay.7849

clay.7849

You DO know what the Shortbow attack 1 does right? All you need to know is here:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crossfire

On the matter of “auto-attacks”, no there aren’t any in Guild Wars 2, unlike other games, including Guild Wars 1 which are full of stand-still just “swing your sword” attacks. In other words, what was said in the vid has merit, because in Guild Wars 2 you don’t just swing your sword, you perform a skill, even if it can be used repeatedly much like what you can do with auto attacks in other games. However, they are different from auto attacks, because they always perform something, they always either apply boons/conditions or are finishers, have conditional modifiers or are part of chains.

Like Crossfire for example, I don’t know how you missed this, if you hit from behind, or the side, you apply bleeding, also it’s a 20% projectile finisher, even THIS skill has a lot more than pure damage, unlike an “auto-attack” in other games.

Of course there are skills which do very very little and are more like auto attacks, Longbow skill 1 for example, or Guardian Scepter 1 etc but they are few (maybe only these 3?) most mainhand weapons have interesting skill1 that are a lot different to a simple Auto attack.

Lol, arguing semantics doesn’t mean that skill 1 isn’t an auto attack. Like it or not, it is.

Like it or not, it’s not similar to auto-attacks of other games in any way or form, what did you want? For skill1 to also have a cooldown and at some time have no skills to use? Or.. add a useless auto attack like in Guild Wars 1?

I’m not saying anything about what I want. I’m saying they are the same thing.

As an aside, auto-attacks, whether it is the 1 skill or not, are relatively boring. So are the other skills that basically just add +dmg or +conditions to the skill bar.

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Posted by: Shootsfoot.9276

Shootsfoot.9276

Well AA doesn’t do much on Ele

Staff skill1 attacks are way similar to skills we see in other games, not auto attacks, Fireball has aoe damage – actually it’s the same as Fireball in GW1, Stoning applies weakness, Water blast heals in the radious and Chain Lightning hits multiple targets, I could hardly say these attacks are in any way or form similar to “auto attacks” in GW1 or any other MMO, where they only do an animation and deal a bit of damage, nothing more.

And then you remember that there’s more weapons than just staff. Scepter: water’s autoattack is the worst in the game, having terrible damage and no special effects whatsoever, air’s is about the second worst since it’s dps still isn’t even that good if you let the whole thing fire, and in the meantime it prevents you from dodging or else you lose your damage output. Dagger: both fire and air are very plain, no chain, no special effect, and is basically just a regular melee attack that looks flashier.

Well, to be fair, water isn’t really intended to be a DPS attunement.

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Posted by: digiowl.9620

digiowl.9620

Well AA doesn’t do much on Ele

Staff skill1 attacks are way similar to skills we see in other games, not auto attacks, Fireball has aoe damage – actually it’s the same as Fireball in GW1, Stoning applies weakness, Water blast heals in the radious and Chain Lightning hits multiple targets, I could hardly say these attacks are in any way or form similar to “auto attacks” in GW1 or any other MMO, where they only do an animation and deal a bit of damage, nothing more.

And then you remember that there’s more weapons than just staff. Scepter: water’s autoattack is the worst in the game, having terrible damage and no special effects whatsoever, air’s is about the second worst since it’s dps still isn’t even that good if you let the whole thing fire, and in the meantime it prevents you from dodging or else you lose your damage output. Dagger: both fire and air are very plain, no chain, no special effect, and is basically just a regular melee attack that looks flashier.

Well, to be fair, water isn’t really intended to be a DPS attunement.

Making it a pointless attunement except for dagger #5, thanks to how the numbers work out right now.

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Posted by: Shootsfoot.9276

Shootsfoot.9276

Well AA doesn’t do much on Ele

Staff skill1 attacks are way similar to skills we see in other games, not auto attacks, Fireball has aoe damage – actually it’s the same as Fireball in GW1, Stoning applies weakness, Water blast heals in the radious and Chain Lightning hits multiple targets, I could hardly say these attacks are in any way or form similar to “auto attacks” in GW1 or any other MMO, where they only do an animation and deal a bit of damage, nothing more.

And then you remember that there’s more weapons than just staff. Scepter: water’s autoattack is the worst in the game, having terrible damage and no special effects whatsoever, air’s is about the second worst since it’s dps still isn’t even that good if you let the whole thing fire, and in the meantime it prevents you from dodging or else you lose your damage output. Dagger: both fire and air are very plain, no chain, no special effect, and is basically just a regular melee attack that looks flashier.

Well, to be fair, water isn’t really intended to be a DPS attunement.

Making it a pointless attunement except for dagger #5, thanks to how the numbers work out right now.

Which brings us back to the “define roles better” argument.

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Posted by: gimmethegepgun.1284

gimmethegepgun.1284

Well AA doesn’t do much on Ele

Staff skill1 attacks are way similar to skills we see in other games, not auto attacks, Fireball has aoe damage – actually it’s the same as Fireball in GW1, Stoning applies weakness, Water blast heals in the radious and Chain Lightning hits multiple targets, I could hardly say these attacks are in any way or form similar to “auto attacks” in GW1 or any other MMO, where they only do an animation and deal a bit of damage, nothing more.

And then you remember that there’s more weapons than just staff. Scepter: water’s autoattack is the worst in the game, having terrible damage and no special effects whatsoever, air’s is about the second worst since it’s dps still isn’t even that good if you let the whole thing fire, and in the meantime it prevents you from dodging or else you lose your damage output. Dagger: both fire and air are very plain, no chain, no special effect, and is basically just a regular melee attack that looks flashier.

Well, to be fair, water isn’t really intended to be a DPS attunement.

Yeah, but at least Staff and Dagger have something valuable on their autoattack. Scepter’s has absolutely nothing of any value. Though really Water Scepter is just awful anyway, the only reason you’d go that is to fire a Water Trident and use your offhand skills.

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

Well AA doesn’t do much on Ele

Staff skill1 attacks are way similar to skills we see in other games, not auto attacks, Fireball has aoe damage – actually it’s the same as Fireball in GW1, Stoning applies weakness, Water blast heals in the radious and Chain Lightning hits multiple targets, I could hardly say these attacks are in any way or form similar to “auto attacks” in GW1 or any other MMO, where they only do an animation and deal a bit of damage, nothing more.

And then you remember that there’s more weapons than just staff. Scepter: water’s autoattack is the worst in the game, having terrible damage and no special effects whatsoever, air’s is about the second worst since it’s dps still isn’t even that good if you let the whole thing fire, and in the meantime it prevents you from dodging or else you lose your damage output. Dagger: both fire and air are very plain, no chain, no special effect, and is basically just a regular melee attack that looks flashier.

Not quite. All those attacks you mentioned are split attacks. Dragon’s Claw fires 3 daggers in a cone shape, it takes some getting used to it, if you want to maximize damage, Dagger air yes it’s one of the most plain attacks ever.

Scepter Air was updated recently, it can now pierce targets, also I always used that attack to proc on-crit effects, it works very well like that.

Also, there are “regular” melee attacks, that’s the whole point and the difference between an auto attack in other games and a skill1 in Guild Wars 2, true some weapons need a lot of help and look plain, it is also proven that the more plain the attack, the more lacking it is in gameplay.

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Posted by: lethlora.1320

lethlora.1320

My favorite part was where the OP took a quote out of context to make it sound like something worse and then tried to tell us who the politicians are. Would read again.

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

I’m not saying anything about what I want. I’m saying they are the same thing.

As an aside, auto-attacks, whether it is the 1 skill or not, are relatively boring. So are the other skills that basically just add +dmg or +conditions to the skill bar.

No you are just saying what you want and what you want to believe is false, accept it.
They are not the same thing, at all.

And about the last part of your nonsense, you know many skills in other games that don’t just add +dmg or +conditions? 99% of GW1 skills did this, or you forgot about that? Maybe they are also ALL auto-attacks, they just have cooldowns? So all the skills in GW1 were just autoattacks with cooldowns according to your logic?

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Posted by: clay.7849

clay.7849

I’m not saying anything about what I want. I’m saying they are the same thing.

As an aside, auto-attacks, whether it is the 1 skill or not, are relatively boring. So are the other skills that basically just add +dmg or +conditions to the skill bar.

No you are just saying what you want and what you want to believe is false, accept it.
They are not the same thing, at all.

And about the last part of your nonsense, you know many skills in other games that don’t just add +dmg or +conditions? 99% of GW1 skills did this, or you forgot about that? Maybe they are also ALL auto-attacks, they just have cooldowns? So all the skills in GW1 were just autoattacks with cooldowns according to your logic?

Ok, I’m going to step back from this conversation. I have no idea what you are saying and why you are putting words in my mouth.

It just so happens that when I push “1” in GW2 it is amazingly similar to what happens when I push “spacebar” in GW1. So much so, that I fail to see the difference other than one is listed as a skill in the UI and one isn’t.

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Posted by: Jemmi.6058

Jemmi.6058

“I swung a sword, I swung a sword again Hey! I swung it again, that’s great”

Do you remember the teaser for GW2 before it’s release? Where Colin Johanson said the above line?, well, isn’t that exactly what we’re doing in the current model?

The context of that quote has nothing to do with auto-attacks. It had to do with basic questing models and progression.

So whats the full quote?

The full quote:

“When you look at the art in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s visually stunning. I’ve never seen anything like that before,’ and then when you play the combat in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s incredible. I’ve never seen anything like that.’ In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat.”

It’s about the boring grind to get to the fun stuff. In Guild Wars 2 you don’t have to hit max level to get a world class boss. You can find them in the starter zones. That’s what he’s talking about. He’s talking about the stuff you do at lower levels is the same stuff you do at higher levels.

In most games, you have to level fast as you can to get to raids. In Guild Wars 2, you can level at any pace you want and find cool stuff to do.

You may personally not think the stuff is cool…but many people do.

How anyone can think this means there’ll be no grind at all in the game, particularly when in other interviews they said there would be grind for people who wanted to grind, and particularly because there was grind in Guild Wars 1…I just don’t know why people continually want to take this quote out of context.

Really? I though that quote more had to do with skill progression. Like in other games you start out with a weak sauce attack where you can swing a sword and do nothing else. Whereas in Guild Wars 2 you can have access to all your attack abilities within minutes.

As for the main post, your initial part makes it sound like you wanted to be able to not have to swing a sword at all? That’d just be silly.

Second part of the post makes it seem like you think auto-attacks are more powerful than the rest. I have yet to play a class that this is true for. Granted, I only played a Ranger to level 20. I have 80 Mes/Ele/Thief and am levelling up a warrior now.

3rd part of your post mocks Dynamic Events and says no one does them, but then you say that people just do dragons. Dragons are dynamic events.. People also do plenty of them in Orr and a few others (Maw, Golem, Wurm, Harathi Centaur etc). These dynamic events are done because you get a significant reward beyond Karma. I can agree with you that increasing the value of karma would benefit the game. Granted, you can use the karma you do get to buy exotics or rares for Mystic Forge or Salvage.

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

I’m not saying anything about what I want. I’m saying they are the same thing.

As an aside, auto-attacks, whether it is the 1 skill or not, are relatively boring. So are the other skills that basically just add +dmg or +conditions to the skill bar.

No you are just saying what you want and what you want to believe is false, accept it.
They are not the same thing, at all.

And about the last part of your nonsense, you know many skills in other games that don’t just add +dmg or +conditions? 99% of GW1 skills did this, or you forgot about that? Maybe they are also ALL auto-attacks, they just have cooldowns? So all the skills in GW1 were just autoattacks with cooldowns according to your logic?

Ok, I’m going to step back from this conversation. I have no idea what you are saying and why you are putting words in my mouth.

It just so happens that when I push “1” in GW2 it is amazingly similar to what happens when I push “spacebar” in GW1. So much so, that I fail to see the difference other than one is listed as a skill in the UI and one isn’t.

And to me it so happens that when I push “1” in GW2 it is amazingly different to what happens when I push “spacebar” in GW1, see two can play this game. I explained already why they are different, you called it playing with semantics, you couldn’t find the proper words I see, and I use your own logic that the vast majority of skills in GW1 are similar to auto-attacks, excpet they have cooldown. How different is Fireball between the two games, or Immolate with Scepter1? They are NOT different at all.

And I ask again, would you like the silly alternative, of having all the skills with a cooldown so at some time you wouldn’t be able to use any of your skills? Like what could EASILY happen in Guild Wars 1?

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Posted by: Shootsfoot.9276

Shootsfoot.9276

I’m not saying anything about what I want. I’m saying they are the same thing.

As an aside, auto-attacks, whether it is the 1 skill or not, are relatively boring. So are the other skills that basically just add +dmg or +conditions to the skill bar.

No you are just saying what you want and what you want to believe is false, accept it.
They are not the same thing, at all.

And about the last part of your nonsense, you know many skills in other games that don’t just add +dmg or +conditions? 99% of GW1 skills did this, or you forgot about that? Maybe they are also ALL auto-attacks, they just have cooldowns? So all the skills in GW1 were just autoattacks with cooldowns according to your logic?

I have no idea whatsoever what you are trying to say here.

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Posted by: Shootsfoot.9276

Shootsfoot.9276

And I ask again, would you like the silly alternative, of having all the skills with a cooldown so at some time you wouldn’t be able to use any of your skills? Like what could EASILY happen in Guild Wars 1?

Play a sword/shield Guardian and you’ll see that already happens.

Fire off skill 1…let it autocycle….wait for your other cooldowns…roll around on the ground in heavy armor like an Olympic gymnast.

(edited by Shootsfoot.9276)

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Posted by: Uruz Six.6594

Uruz Six.6594

To me the definition of ‘shallow’ combat is “Press rotation, receive loot.” Throwing a challenge every now and then to break me out of my comfort zone – and giving me the tools to break out of said comfort zone – really is something refreshing to see out of an MMO.

Skoryy, sylvari thief: “Act now, figure out ‘with wisdom’ later.”
Nanuchka, norn mesmer: “BOOZEAHOL!”
Tarnished Coast – Still Here, El Guapo!

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Posted by: clay.7849

clay.7849

I’m not saying anything about what I want. I’m saying they are the same thing.

As an aside, auto-attacks, whether it is the 1 skill or not, are relatively boring. So are the other skills that basically just add +dmg or +conditions to the skill bar.

No you are just saying what you want and what you want to believe is false, accept it.
They are not the same thing, at all.

And about the last part of your nonsense, you know many skills in other games that don’t just add +dmg or +conditions? 99% of GW1 skills did this, or you forgot about that? Maybe they are also ALL auto-attacks, they just have cooldowns? So all the skills in GW1 were just autoattacks with cooldowns according to your logic?

Ok, I’m going to step back from this conversation. I have no idea what you are saying and why you are putting words in my mouth.

It just so happens that when I push “1” in GW2 it is amazingly similar to what happens when I push “spacebar” in GW1. So much so, that I fail to see the difference other than one is listed as a skill in the UI and one isn’t.

And to me it so happens that when I push “1” in GW2 it is amazingly different to what happens when I push “spacebar” in GW1, see two can play this game. I explained already why they are different, you called it playing with semantics, you couldn’t find the proper words I see, and I use your own logic that the vast majority of skills in GW1 are similar to auto-attacks, excpet they have cooldown. How different is Fireball between the two games, or Immolate with Scepter1? They are NOT different at all.

And I ask again, would you like the silly alternative, of having all the skills with a cooldown so at some time you wouldn’t be able to use any of your skills? Like what could EASILY happen in Guild Wars 1?

Oh I completely agree that most skills in GW2 are like auto attack skills in that they provide very little interesting mechanics and don’t really do anythinguch different than the 1 skill. That’s kinda why the combat is so shallow.

Now I see what you’re saying.

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

And I ask again, would you like the silly alternative, of having all the skills with a cooldown so at some time you wouldn’t be able to use any of your skills? Like what could EASILY happen in Guild Wars 1?

Play a sword/shield Guardian and you’ll see that already happens.

Fire off skill 1…let it autocycle….wait for your other cooldowns…dodge occasionally.

I use Sword/Focus a lot, haven’t used a shield for a while. Also, weapon swap.